About the conspiracy

Hi
I've been reading about Flat Earth Theory since a long time now and something always baffled me: how such a big scale conspiracy can exist.
According to what I read, the conspiracy exist in order to get some funding tunneled through NASA, to fund who-knows-what projects.
Another thing I found was to keep secret continents outside the "Ice Wall", to exploit their resources.
Whatever the reason, it raises some questions.
Bear with me, it'll be a bit long.

In order to enforce such a conspiracy, you'll need to involve all the astronomers in the world, or, at least, the vast majority of them.
There are approximately 10000 astronomers (https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/6328/how-many-astronomers-are-there-in-the-world-today), so that's already a big number.
But wait, if you want to make everybody believe in a round Earth, you'll need more, like cartographers. I don't know how many there are, but a few thousands is a good guess.
Also, in our modern days, we have planes, so if we don't want the pilots to find out that the maps are cheated, we need to trick the instruments. So, we need the aerospace engineers involved too: +90000 (https://studentscholarships.org/professions/527/employed/aerospace_engineers.php).
So, let's round the total to 100000 people. That's one level.

Because now, we have to involve some politicians too. And all the people to manage the logistics of collecting/transferring the money. Although you can have a large amount of them outside of the conspiracy, that adds some level of complexity which will increase the risk of leaks.

And that's not finished. Until recently, everything related to space was in the hands of a very few agencies: NASA (USA), Roscosmos (Russia), ESA (EU).
But in the past 20 years, new ones were created: JAXA (Japan), CNSA (China), ISRO (India), UAESA (United Arab Emirates)...
And more and more private space companies were created too. In US (SpaceX, Blue Origin...), China (i-Space), even New-Zealand (Rocket Lab).
It add a few thousands more people.

Those national agencies and private companies are launching satellites, so they need their theory correct.
Those satellites provide services, so there has to be a device somewhere. According to some Flat-Earther, satellites don't exist, but they are actually high-altitude balloons. So, it would involve all the people building those balloons too.

If we consider the "continents-beyond-the-Ice-Wall" thing, we have to add all the people transferring whatever comes and go there.

I could continue, but you should see my point, now.
We are speaking of hundred of thousands of people involved to have that conspiracy stay secret, without any leak. For several decades or even centuries, it bring that number to millions, potentially.

You can look at the study in that article to convince yourself how unlikely it would be:
https://www.popsci.com/how-many-minions-can-you-have-before-your-conspiracy-fails/

I find it very hard to believe that, since the Flat Earth Theory exists, nobody could find 1 whistle-blower to expose the Round Earth conspiracy, with some evidences.

I'm not stating that the Flat Earth Hypothesis is false, just that the arguments presented for a Round Earth Conspiracy are, at best, weak.

I'd like to listen to your arguments in favor or against that conspiracy.
Have a good day.

Based on my observations of the conspiracy - they have only allowed and publicised and not censored) certain scientific tools - ones which don't let you see this so easily.

I think the sky could be somehow spherical as well - sorry didn't read your hole post as of yet.
 
just an example of censoring our tools:

Closer to the turn of the century (1900) Royal Raymond Reiff invented a microscope that had (not sure exactly - ask if you want more details) 5 to 10x more parts than a standard microscope. It used a prism and some types of light tuning devices(?) to illuminate unseen objects and broke the "laws of physics with its magnification power.

 He discovered pleiomorphism - the change of micororganisms  and infectious agents thought to be the cause of disease... change form bacteria to fungi to protist or whatever the 4 or 5 types of microorganisms are. Also protids or somatids - present and supposed to be there in all human blood - turn into supposed infectious agents. Check out terrain theory.

From what i understand, his Discoveries were hidden and lab destroyed.

They're offering less and less evidence of enything at all anymore, it seems to me.

just an example of censoring our tools:

Closer to the turn of the century (1900) Royal Raymond Reiff invented a microscope that had (not sure exactly - ask if you want more details) 5 to 10x more parts than a standard microscope. It used a prism and some types of light tuning devices(?) to illuminate unseen objects and broke the "laws of physics with its magnification power.

 He discovered pleiomorphism - the change of micororganisms  and infectious agents thought to be the cause of disease... change form bacteria to fungi to protist or whatever the 4 or 5 types of microorganisms are. Also protids or somatids - present and supposed to be there in all human blood - turn into supposed infectious agents. Check out terrain theory.

From what i understand, his Discoveries were hidden and lab destroyed.

Or, he didn't, and instead it is all just wild claims.

If it truly was supressed, then how do you know about it?

This part of the conspiracy simply makes no sense.
Those running it need to be so extremely competent that they can bury all the evidence of the conspiracy and all the evidence that shows the RE to be false, yet so extremely incompetent that so many people seem to know about all this supressed evidence.

Either they truly are competent, and you wouldn't know about it at all; or they aren't that competent and plenty of evidence should be available.

I don't agree. I think "you can't fool all the people all the time" applies.

I don't agree. I think "you can't fool all the people all the time" applies.

Which means that there should have been plenty of evidence getting out.

Hi

Hello.

In order to enforce such a conspiracy, you'll need to involve all the astronomers in the world, or, at least, the vast majority of them.

Balderdash.

Because now, we have to involve some politicians too.

Some, certainly. Probably fewer than you'd imagine, though.

And that's not finished. Until recently, everything related to space was in the hands of a very few agencies: NASA (USA), Roscosmos (Russia), ESA (EU).
But in the past 20 years, new ones were created: JAXA (Japan), CNSA (China), ISRO (India), UAESA (United Arab Emirates)...
And more and more private space companies were created too. In US (SpaceX, Blue Origin...), China (i-Space), even New-Zealand (Rocket Lab).

It's always been a commercial racket. Apollo rockets were built by NAA and Douglas (and innumerable subs). The command modules were built by NAA and Rockwell. Grumman built the "landers". Most satellites were TRW. Etc, etc.
Since BGGM's conception, it has been this way.

I find it very hard to believe that, since the Flat Earth Theory exists, nobody could find 1 whistle-blower to expose the Round Earth conspiracy, with some evidences.

Hardly surprising. They would be treated no more kindly or credibly than a person from Lockheed stating he had worked on alien spaceships while employed in Burbank. The global meme is accepting by a vast majority of the population. Such a story would never spread. It'd be relegated to a tabloid article one sees when standing in line at the supermarket, if that.

Quote

In order to enforce such a conspiracy, you'll need to involve all the astronomers in the world, or, at least, the vast majority of them.

Balderdash.

Why? Things even amateur astronomers can do. I've done a number of these myself.

Bounce radio signals off the moon to check it's distance.

Verify that stars move in perfect circles.

Photograph the ISS and satellites.

Take pictures of sunspots as they rotate around the Sun.

Photograph nearly any object in the sky and verify it matches with NASA pictures.

Use formulas based on a round Earth, gravity and orbits to predict the positions of objects and locate them where they should be and what one should see from different parts of the globe.

Communicate directly with satellites, and the ISS.

Literally watch ships dock with the ISS in real time.

Do you know how many astronomers get data from the Hubble and other space based platforms? These people who spend their entire lives studying the heavens either have to be in on it or idiots to not notice all the data is being faked but still matches perfectly with everything they personally observe and get from ground based observitories.

That's one of the big problems with the conspiracy. Telescopes, HAM radios, all kinds of equipment is cheap and easily available. If only a single NASA lie was exposed it could be verified by millions of people overnight.

Yet... strangely this hasn't happened.  As of right now, all the planets and stars and moons and artificial satellites are still right where they are supposed to be.

It's not because we are all in on it.  But I suppose denying my involvement just makes me 'one of them'.

Why? Things even amateur astronomers can do. I've done a number of these myself.

Bounce radio signals off the moon to check it's distance.

Verify that stars move in perfect circles.

Photograph the ISS and satellites.

Take pictures of sunspots as they rotate around the Sun.

Photograph nearly any object in the sky and verify it matches with NASA pictures.

Use formulas based on a round Earth, gravity and orbits to predict the positions of objects and locate them where they should be and what one should see from different parts of the globe.

Communicate directly with satellites, and the ISS.

Literally watch ships dock with the ISS in real time.

Etc, etc

All your assumptions are built on other faulty assumptions. Small wonder you are confused.

Quote from: JJA on April 07, 2021, 07:16:40 AM

Why? Things even amateur astronomers can do. I've done a number of these myself.

Bounce radio signals off the moon to check it's distance.

Verify that stars move in perfect circles.

Photograph the ISS and satellites.

Take pictures of sunspots as they rotate around the Sun.

Photograph nearly any object in the sky and verify it matches with NASA pictures.

Use formulas based on a round Earth, gravity and orbits to predict the positions of objects and locate them where they should be and what one should see from different parts of the globe.

Communicate directly with satellites, and the ISS.

Literally watch ships dock with the ISS in real time.

Etc, etc

All your assumptions are built on other faulty assumptions. Small wonder you are confused.

So what are your own assumptions based on?
The previous poster that you disagreed with provided a list of items that can be checked by anyone who is interested while you on the other hand provided no content simply dismissing them out of hand. That is hardly debating.

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you. You can of course provide some links to astronomers who would agree with yourself, but I think that’s highly unlikely as no professional astronomer subscribes to the world being flat.

Quote from: JJA on April 07, 2021, 07:16:40 AM

Why? Things even amateur astronomers can do. I've done a number of these myself.

Bounce radio signals off the moon to check it's distance.

Verify that stars move in perfect circles.

Photograph the ISS and satellites.

Take pictures of sunspots as they rotate around the Sun.

Photograph nearly any object in the sky and verify it matches with NASA pictures.

Use formulas based on a round Earth, gravity and orbits to predict the positions of objects and locate them where they should be and what one should see from different parts of the globe.

Communicate directly with satellites, and the ISS.

Literally watch ships dock with the ISS in real time.

Etc, etc

All your assumptions are built on other faulty assumptions. Small wonder you are confused.

As Timeisup mentioned, what faulty assumptions?

I'm verifying things with my own eyes, my own equipment. 

Am I confused that I can take pictures of the space station, and know EXACTLY where it will be ahead of time?  I've seen it in half a dozen countries all around the world.  You can claim it's floating in a pool in Hollywood but I have seen it, directly with my own eyes.  I am confused because every observation I make matches up with round earth predictions?  What's confusing about that?

Please provide some details and not just a blanket dismissal of everything I said.  If you have a problem with a specific item in my list, please elaborate..

I think this guy is an astronomer or astrophysicist

Simon Shack

- If I understand correctly - maybe wrong but someone could look into it - dicusses how Copernicus was wrong and Tycho Brahe was right in his book:

"The TYCOS
Our Geoaxial Binary System"

Apparently it's rock solid, found it on "Clues forum".

I think this guy is an astronomer or astrophysicist

Simon Shack

- If I understand correctly - maybe wrong but someone could look into it - dicusses how Copernicus was wrong and Tycho Brahe was right in his book:

"The TYCOS
Our Geoaxial Binary System"

Apparently it's rock solid, found it on "Clues forum".

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else. That aside even Simon Shack who you referred to does not advocate that the earth is flat and and freely admits he has no academic standing and is not an astronomer. He is a guy with a dog who has wrote a book! This is what he says about himself:-

I am the (lone) author of this new interpretation of our ‘solar system’, though many curious-minded people before me – and contemporaneous with me – have contributed with clues towards this groundbreaking understanding. I am an independent researcher with no ties or affiliation with any entity whatsoever and have conducted this five-year-long study in perfect solitude, on a zero budget. I feel fortunate to have no academic credentials to speak of, as this ‘handicap’ may well have facilitated my fresh and unbiased investigative research journey into the daunting realm of astronomy.

I’m a 50%-50% Norwegian/Swede currently living in Italy with my dog, Mira.

The situation as it has always been is who do you believe? To study astronomy beyond our own solar system requires some reasonably serious kit. To do meaningful research requires facilities beyond the scope of any individual. I’m talking about access to facilities such as the Gran Telescopio Canarias, the Keck I and II Telescopes or the VLA.

The choice you have is to believe lone people like Simon Shack who have no qualifications no resources and no access to research facilities or do you believe what full time professional astronomers have to say?

Let’s be perfectly clear there are no flat earth professional astronomers, they don’t exist. The choice you have is to believe information that is based on hard scientific facts based on verified research or just believe stuff that you want to believe in produced by people like Simon Shack. Why you think what he has on offer is rock solid I find perplexing.

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

This is nothing but a personal attack and does not provide any actual reasoning behind it.

If you can show where professional astronomers are wrong, please do so. I have plenty of telescopes and equipment I could use to verify your findings. Please elaborate on your discoveries and evidence you are basing your own beliefs on.

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 07:48:23 AM

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

This is nothing but a personal attack

The horror.  I do hope you'll both be okay.

Quote from: Tim

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Pretty easy to check for yourself though:

1.  Get star charts.
2.  See if stars are the right place.
3.  Confirm shape of Earth

Quote from: JJA on April 08, 2021, 08:36:23 AM

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 07:48:23 AM

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

This is nothing but a personal attack

The horror.  I do hope you'll both be okay.

On the contrary I'm deeply, fatally wounded by your vicious attack.  The only cure is if you back up your claims with the hard evidence you have as to where I can see all these lies astronomers are telling us.

Oh well. Looks like I'm a goner. Tell my wife I love her.

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 07:48:23 AM

Quote from: Tim

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Pretty easy to check for yourself though:

1.  Get star charts.
2.  See if stars are the right place.
3.  Confirm shape of Earth

I'm not sure how you believe the latter follows from the former.

Stars have been charted for millennia. The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

A star chart can only falsify a star chart.

I'm not sure how you believe the latter follows from the former.

Maybe you should think it through then?

Stars have been charted for millennia. The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

The balyonians were only using one reference point on earth.  We have the luxury of being able to check from all over the planet.

A star chart can only falsify a star chart.

Star charts that map stars in all directions from the earth in a complete “celestial sphere” show that we have direct line of sight in all directions.  Fully twice as much sky as would be visible from a flat earth.

Twice as much sky!? That is impressive.

Twice as much sky!? That is impressive.

I know, and we’ve not even started on what Flat Earthers pretend is going on with the sun, moon, planets, seasons, tides, etc, etc. 

I’m sure spouting the usual cliched guff about priesthood and delusion is more fun than boring boring detail though.  So carry on.

Quote from: Unconvinced on April 08, 2021, 09:00:33 AM

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 07:48:23 AM

Quote from: Tim

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Pretty easy to check for yourself though:

1.  Get star charts.
2.  See if stars are the right place.
3.  Confirm shape of Earth

I'm not sure how you believe the latter follows from the former.

Stars have been charted for millennia. The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

A star chart can only falsify a star chart.

So what can you prove that is falsified?  I keep asking this but you haven't addressed it. Can you show me even one object in the sky that isn't where NASA says it should be? Any observation NASA makes that I can check and see it's not right?  Just one?

Quote from: Tim

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Professional astronomers are just like any other profession that requires an academic training. There is nothing special about them in so far as they have, like other professions, developed an expertise in a particular area that I a pretty specialised.

I’m not sure what the basis of your delusional remark is based on. If you could explain.

The problem for you may revolve around the fact of the total lack of any flat earth astronomers which  puts you in a rather difficult position in that all we know about the universe at large has come from main stream science. It must be a difficult fact for you to swallow.

Quote from: Unconvinced on April 08, 2021, 09:00:33 AM

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 07:48:23 AM

Quote from: Tim

There will always be individuals who will maintaining that they have discovered the truth, a truth that has somehow eluded everyone else

Sound like an ever-moving goal posts from you...

Quote from: Tim

Every professional astronomer in the world would most likely disagree with you

I know you regard "professional astronomers" or "scientists" as some sort of priesthood, but it is not a delusion I care to share with you.

Pretty easy to check for yourself though:

1.  Get star charts.
2.  See if stars are the right place.
3.  Confirm shape of Earth

I'm not sure how you believe the latter follows from the former.

Stars have been charted for millennia. The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

A star chart can only falsify a star chart.

The Babylonians knew very little about the solar system, let alone the cosmos at large, bearing in mind their lack of any optical devices. All they had were clear skys and their naked eyes!

To compare the little they knew then to what we know now is disregarding the last 200 years of astronomical research and discovery.

I said they had extremely accurate star charts. The existence of accurate star charts does not confirm the shape of the earth in any fashion. Seeing stars where predicted by a chart simply confirms a chart is accurate.

The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

The FE models of the ancients have more in common with the RE model of today than the FE models of today.

If you take the RE model of today, and make a series of approximations, including only having it apply to a small area of Earth, you end up with those kind of FE models.

A key aspect is the celestial sphere, where the stars (and the sun) go below Earth.
For a small enough portion of Earth, you can model Earth as flat and have it be accurate for there.

The problem comes when you try to have ALL of Earth.

Now, did these ancient cultures have a system to a produce chart for anywhere on Earth and have that match?
Because that is where the problems arise.

It is how the position of the stars change as you move around Earth that shows Earth is round.

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 09:06:57 AM

The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

The FE models of the ancients have more in common with the RE model of today than the FE models of today.

Come now. That's very brazen.

Quote from: JackBlack on April 08, 2021, 02:35:58 PM

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 09:06:57 AM

The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

The FE models of the ancients have more in common with the RE model of today than the FE models of today.

Come now. That's very brazen.

Yes, the Babylonians and Chinese both promoted the idea that the Earth was accelerating upward and gravity was caused by the resulting spacetime warping. 

Quite a lot in common. 

Quote from: JackBlack on April 08, 2021, 02:35:58 PM

Quote from: Ski on April 08, 2021, 09:06:57 AM

The Babylonians and other ANE cultures were famous for them. Chinese, as well. All flat earthers.

The FE models of the ancients have more in common with the RE model of today than the FE models of today.

Come now. That's very brazen.

Not really, just honest.

With the point of distinction between the models, it is really just the name, that Earth is flat in both.
But for all practical purposes, these ancient models are far more in common with the RE model of today.

Take the RE model of today, and use a reference frame centred on Earth, with Earth stationary.
Now, lose the precision of parallax and thus you may as well place all the stars on a celestial sphere some distance away.
This celestial sphere rotates on its axis.
The sun's orbit is likewise projected onto this sphere, as is the moons.
The planets, not known exactly how they move, were deemed to wander the sphere.

Now, ignore basically all of Earth so you just have a tiny sliver some several hundred km wide (at best), and an unknown amount deep, which for this level of accuracy, may as well be taken as flat.
Now you have the ancient model of the FE.

Why does the sun set in this model? Because it goes below Earth, i.e. Earth gets in the way.
Why does it set in the RE model, because Earth gets in the way.
Why does it set in the FE model of today? Magic, as it is actually above Earth all the time and some magic prevents you from seeing it. Different models appeal to different types of magic, but none have the sun going below Earth as it still needs to be above some other point on Earth.

This also applies to the stars.