A brief comment on modern politics and moving forward

It seems there's more political discussion on this forum than flat earth discussion so I thought I would start a thread.

Our political climate is tense and divided currently and I wanted to offer my thoughts on coming together as nations.

We are divided into right and left wing by our governments. Right and left wing are economic positions as defined in the modern age although not many of us realise it. Right wing being free market capitalism and left wing being government control over a nation's finances. Both positions hold valid points and in my opinion it's important to have people on either side. Total free market capitalism ultimately culminates in the strong taking advantage of and exploiting the weak. Total government control over a nation's economy ultimately culminates in communism where historically the strong take advantage and exploit the weak.

It's funny how that works, as always the best systems we have are in the middle, where the market is free enough and the government reigns it in when it becomes an oligarchy. I think the gamestop fiasco illustrated this well. Certain people and groups have far too much influence to be able to call the market free. However this is what a total free market will always lead to.

With that out of the way I would like to move on to my main point which I will make a separate post for in the interests of avoiding a wall of text.

While left and right wing as defined today are economic positions, the terms left and right wing have a much older origin.

The terms left and right wing are found as far back as Roman times, they designate different flanks of the Roman armies.





https://romanmilitary.net/strategy/legform/

Personally I find old military strategy fascinating but this thought had only occurred to me recently.

The right and left wing of the Roman army had different soldiers with different roles. The commanders of the army sat in the centre and towards the rear as it is the safest place to be and is the most tactically advantageous place to order troops from.

This is what I think we have forgotten today. While the left and right wing had different objectives in battle, They were part of the same army. A house divided against itself cannot stand, it's the same with an army. The left wing relies on the right as much as the right wing relies on the left. They are different but indispensable parts of the same army.

Imagine a Roman army facing down the enemy when suddenly the left and right wing started attacking each other because they each felt that only the left wing or only the right wing was needed to push forward.

This is obviously absurd, the Romans enemies would laugh at the divided Roman army walk around them, take their city, their grain, their gold and their women. No commander of any army would want this unless the Roman commander had made a deal with the enemy that he thought was profitable to himself and worth losing his city for.

I think that this is a perfect metaphor for today. Instead of trying to understand each other and realising we are all citizens of the same nation the left and right wing have broken their formations and have begun attacking each other. If we could only remember that we are part of the same nation and treated each other like fellow citizens we could move forward together.

The US has really ramped up their rhetoric recently and the nation is being torn apart. People with different political views are not our enemies, they are our brothers in arms. We have to accept that the vast majority of people do what they do because they believe it is right. Instead of labelling our opponents as traitors or terrorists we should work to understand why they believe what they believe and see if we can move towards a workable compromise.

When we have people celebrating peoples death because they disagree with their political views, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg or Rush Limbaugh the nation is only just being held together. Both of them were American citizens and both of their deaths were celebrated by their political opponents. We are walking down a path we can't walk back from and people are starting to notice.

I will probably post more on this but I'd like to see what people think first.

People don't even know what is right or left anymore. For example, people believe Joe Biden is 'far left' and they thought Trump was a 'sensible centre'. Depending on who your 'team' is, you will always think it the reasonable position.

Also, I find that many people are 'rusted on' to a party. No matter what position that party puts forward, they will support it. But if the 'other' party suggested the same thing, it would be the worst idea in the world. For example, Trump made a huge deal about masks being a waste of time, covid was a hoax etc. But if he said from the start masks were great and it was every Americans patriotic duty to wear it to defeat the 'China virus' (as he called it), all the repugnican voters wouldn't be calling them muzzles and infringing on their freedom. Instead they followed his lead and called covid a hoax

I think what's 'right' and 'left' is pretty much dissolving. Also, someone like myself might be 'left' on some issues and 'right' on other issues. So where does that put me? I personally believe all the parties have ideas of substance somewhere. From the Greens to even a party like the Repugnicans.


And I see many people here in this country who are staunch supporters of the very political party who has no problem with policies that may as well kick them in the teeth. Many people are 1 issue voters. Repugnicans against abortion? They have their vote - nothing else matters. No level of failure, corruption or even attempting an insurrection to essentially do away with a democracy and install an authoritarian dictator for life instead will change that

You say this ^ shifter, yet, you spend much of your time saying how terrible conservatives are. So I guess democrats are the answer? Guess they are not corrupt?

repugnican

I think I can guess who your "team" is.
I don't know you very well but you seem to contradict yourself in your posts.

My point was that our "team" should be our nation. I probably overcomplicated it. I have a tendency to do that.

I defined right and left wing as we currently use them in my OP, I admit and did also admit in the OP that the meaning is getting lost so I agree with you there.

You say this ^ shifter, yet, you spend much of your time saying how terrible conservatives are. So I guess democrats are the answer? Guess they are not corrupt?

It's not black and white. But Trump and his ilk were, on balance, quite terrible. This doesn't mean Democrats are pure of heart. I don't believe that. Hillary in my opinion was an elitist cold hearted bitch. But do I think she would have handled say the covid pandemic better? I think she would have - because she probably wouldn't have called it a hoax and deferred the handling to the experts.

I think Kamala Harris has a heart of stone, but that's the nature of most prosecutors. They would happily put away an innocent person if it means scoring a 'win'

I don't think all the people in the GOP are evil. Mitt Romney seems pretty level headed. Personally, I don't take to the shouty shouting at rallies. It puts me off. Ted Cruz and Trump - their rallies were quite disturbing. They whip up fear and hatred.

Like I said, I think every political party has ideas of merit to bring to the table. Sadly, thanks to social media, people live in bubbles and echo chambers and no one cares to listen at all to the other side. In fact, they think the other side now represents an existential threat to their own country or existence

Remember in the 90s (before shitty social media and popularism politics) when George Bush lost after a single term. He smiled as he said his opponent ran a strong campaign, congratulated him and said he would help him transition to the new government and Bush's supporters cheered at that. Contrast that to Trump after his election loss. Both of these men represented the Republican party.

Come on now Shifter, once Biden won he declared a large portion of the country to be "enemies of democracy" and "domestic terrorists." The issue is hardly one sided. Which again was the point I was trying to raise.

Am I correct in assuming the democrats and not the "repugnicans" are your "team"?

Quote from: Shifter on February 23, 2021, 01:47:00 AM

repugnican

I think I can guess who your "team" is.
I don't know you very well but you seem to contradict yourself in your posts.

Yeah, if there wasn't a filter for the 'c' word you can guess what I'd say about the Democ***s

Maybe I can say 'Democraps' lol

See, this is the problem with politics now. You cant hate on anything about one party without people thinking you're 'in love' with the opposite party.

"If you're not with us, you're against us'

Well no, I have a wide range of views and opinions and dont subscribe to any party because frankly a lot of my views are at odds with each of them.

As an example, I believe in the science of climate change and vaccinations. (somehow this is left wing) I also think political correctness has gone too far and think so much of it is BS (right wing).

Now, other people would be like 'Hmm. I believe in the threat of climate change as do the democrats. The democrats also support all this PC stuff so I have to support that too.' A republican might say 'I hate all this PC garbage as does the republican party. The republican parties stance on climate change is that it's nonsense so that's the view I'm going to take as well'

I don't let any political party dictate to me what I should think. I have no 'team'

Also, rest assured, now that the democrats have the reigns, I'll be pretty critical of any BS or shenanigans they get up to. Obviously when they aren't in power to do anything there is not as much to blame them for. In this way, it's easier to be in opposition because you aren't in the 'hot seat'

Come on now Shifter, once Biden won he declared a large portion of the country to be "enemies of democracy" and "domestic terrorists." The issue is hardly one sided. Which again was the point I was trying to raise.

Am I correct in assuming the democrats and not the "repugnicans" are your "team"?

Think I answered this already in my last reply before you said this

I am not on any team because my views an opinions range all over the place

Also now with the dems in power, I have every chance to be critical of them.

I am Australian. I have no dog in Americas fight. So my opinion is that of an outside perspective

Regarding the claim of many Americans being 'enemies of democracy' - well the insurrectionists who stormed the capitol on Jan 6 most certainly was. Trump most certainly is. And anyone who supports or enables the BS lie that the election was fraudulent and 'stolen', regardless of their feelings, also is

Yes, you might be a huge fan of democracy - But no political leader is entitled to be president. If you were on team Trump - if you were honestly true to yourself and your view on the preciousness of democracy - you would accept that he lost and support the new incoming administration

Afterall, Bidens success would be your success. If you demand or insist he fails - the ultimate loser is yourself and your countrymen

In Australia, I never tell anyone how they should vote. I have voted differently to my parents and my friends and frankly, more power to them. If you are a friend of democracy and not an enemy you would recognize that every vote, regardless of who it is cast to, is legitimate and deserves to be counted

Can you say Trump and many other republicans shared the same belief in the last election?

Do you think the media has a bias?

Vaccines work but there's a few issues that I think warrant a little bit of scepticism about the side effects of the covid vaccines. I don't see it as a partisan issue.

*It's been the fastest vaccine ever produced.
*It's the first ever mRNA vaccine, all our other vaccines have been DNA based.
*There are no long term studies on the side effects of the vaccine.
*The vaccine hasn't been approved by the FDA, except for emergency use.
*There has been the least amount of testing ever done on this vaccine.

I don't want to turn this into a vaccination thread but I don't see it as a partisan issue.

If Trump was a threat to democracy are the people that voted for him threats to democracy also?

I'm not white but I can understand how white people might feel like Biden isn't on their "team" with the policies he is passing. People accused Trump of dividing the nation, sometimes rightfully so but the same people won't admit that the Biden administration is dividing America along racial lines.

Also, again, come on now.
The democrats claimed the election was stolen in 2016. They claimed a foreign state stole it.

The problem being that it is not in the interests of politicians under the current structure to want unity, despite what they say, divide and rule having been thoroughly absorbed from the British empires use of this tactic. This is especially true of the republicans, a recent V-democracy report putting them as akin to Turkey vis-ŕ-vis policy, saying.

“ V-Party’s Illiberalism Index shows that the Republican party in the US has retreated from upholding democratic norms in recent years. Its rhetoric is closer to authoritarian parties, such as AKP in Turkey and Fidesz in Hungary. Conversely, the Democratic party has retained a commitment to longstanding democratic standards."

From an outsider’s point of view the two-party system you have, relying on huge donations to be able to fund a successful campaign, leaves it wide open and vulnerable to pressure from the sources of that income and thus flawed from the outset.

The problem being that it is not in the interests of politicians under the current structure to want unity, despite what they say, divide and rule having been thoroughly absorbed from the British empires use of this tactic. This is especially true of the republicans.

I would say neither party wants unity. I've given a few reasons. I just think it's strange to talk about "divide and rule" then blame one of the two parties for it.

I think the Democrats and Republicans are equally corrupt, like how yourself and another poster pointed out, they are both paid by the same people. Which wouldn't be an issue in my opinion if these people had the best interests of their nation at heart instead of the best interests of their wallets.

If Trump was a threat to democracy are the people that voted for him threats to democracy also?

I'm not white but I can understand how white people might feel like Biden isn't on their "team" with the policies he is passing. People accused Trump of dividing the nation, sometimes rightfully so but the same people won't admit that the Biden administration is dividing America along racial lines.

Also, again, come on now.
The democrats claimed the election was stolen in 2016. They claimed a foreign state stole it.

I'll leave out the debate on vaccines for this thread

You didn't pay attention to what I said if you have to ask the question 'do you think people who voted for Trump are a threat to democracy?'. Of course they aren't. They are exercising their democratic right

The threat to democracy comes when people (regardless of party) ostracize people for voting differently to them. The threat is when people (especially leaders) delegitimize peoples votes if it was not for them.

If you voted for Trump, more power to you, regardless of what I think of Trump. Conversely if I (were American) voted for Biden, then if you are a fan of democracy, your sentiment would be equally supportive of my right to vote for him

Also, the democrats never claim the election was 'stolen'. They claimed Russians interfered and more than a few people investigated were convicted or even jailed.

Personally my belief is that America cant cry too much foul. How many elections or meddling do they do in other countries to install leaders palatable to America or dethrone or sanction leaders that don't toe Americas line. Also I find it odd that at the time, Facebook and Twitter did not cop much flak for their own roles in essentially enabling Russians to meddle. But I guess they are American entities and America doesn't want to point the finger at itself

Also Hillary conceded defeat rather quickly, she rang Trump and congratulated him. Obama helped Trumps team transition and they gave the tour of the White House, smiled for the cameras and did his best to try and make Trump successful etc. All he got was 'OMG OBAMA BUGGED MY ELECTION CAMPAIGN' nonsense. No proof. He was just being a dick.

Ok you're quite clearly partisan. That's fine, everyone is to a greater or lesser degree.

The democrats and most of the media claimed that Russian influence changed the outcome of the election in 2016.

I see that you don't like America much but you made a thread in support of China. Do you realise that China isn't a democracy and has an "authoritarian dictator for life"?

Also nothing I said about the Vaccine is up for debate, only if we should be able to be sceptical of the side effects.

Ok you're quite clearly partisan. That's fine, everyone is to a greater or lesser degree.

The democrats and most of the media claimed that Russian influence changed the outcome of the election in 2016.

I see that you don't like America much but you made a thread in support of China. Do you realise that China isn't a democracy and has an "authoritarian dictator for life"?

Also nothing I said about the Vaccine is up for debate, only if we should be able to be sceptical of the side effects.

Hmm. This partisan hack has voted for The Greens (far left bordering loopy) Labor (left wing party) and Liberal (right wing party) in my years of voting

Clearly partisan because I champion your right to vote for even people I find repugnant and say you should do the same for others. So partisan I find ideals from parties all over the political spectrum to have merit. Sure bro. I guess I know how serious you are on the subject.

If you read it again I only point out that of the two the Republicans over recent years have shifted away from democracy more than the democrats, citing V-Dem (https://www.v-dem.net/en/) an independent research institute from Sweden.

I then point out that the system itself is flawed.

That the last 4 years was a shit show of riding rough shod over what ever checks and balances there were is surely irrefutable, bearing in mind it is not my government and the rest of the western world has looked on in stunned disbelief at the implosion of US democracy.
For you and America to try and move to a more inclusive all for one strategy you must embrace just what went wrong and not, as you seem to be doing, apportion the blame equally where one side is more culpable, and like Shifty said, I am not an apologist for those like Hillary as I never liked any of the Clinton's.   

I didn't mean to offended you Shifter. This is the politics board we should put on our thick skin for discussions.

I see that you don't like America much but you made a thread in support of China. Do you realise that China isn't a democracy and has an "authoritarian dictator for life"?

If you read it again I only point out that of the two the Republicans over recent years have shifted away from democracy more than the democrats, citing V-Dem (https://www.v-dem.net/en/) an independent research institute from Sweden.

I then point out that the system itself is flawed.

That the last 4 years was a shit show of riding rough shod over what ever checks and balances there were is surely irrefutable, bearing in mind it is not my government and the rest of the western world has looked on in stunned disbelief at the implosion of US democracy.
For you and America to try and move to a more inclusive all for one strategy you must embrace just what went wrong and not, as you seem to be doing, apportion the blame equally where one side is more culpable, and like Shifty said, I am not an apologist for those like Hillary as I never liked any of the Clinton's.

Then surely the solution is to vote democrat?

Come on now Biden is every bit the career politician that Hillary was. Biden helped write the patriot act.

I have an unpopular opinion that the Biden administration is doing more to divide the nation, at least along racial lines than the Trump administration did. All this talk about "equity" instead of "equality" is concerning me.

I do think it's fair to apportion blame equally. The democrats haven't been in power for four years, both parties have moved towards authoritarianism so it makes perfect sense that the study would show that the Republicans are more to blame. In another four years we will have better data.

You may or may not agree with the suspension of the constitution due to Covid but no one can deny it's unconstitutional. I like scientists as much as the next guy but there is no clause in the constitution that says that the constitution can be suspended in the event of a pandemic.

I didn't mean to offended you Shifter. This is the politics board we should put on our thick skin for discussions.

I see that you don't like America much but you made a thread in support of China. Do you realise that China isn't a democracy and has an "authoritarian dictator for life"?

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on February 23, 2021, 03:17:25 AM

If you read it again I only point out that of the two the Republicans over recent years have shifted away from democracy more than the democrats, citing V-Dem (https://www.v-dem.net/en/) an independent research institute from Sweden.

I then point out that the system itself is flawed.

That the last 4 years was a shit show of riding rough shod over what ever checks and balances there were is surely irrefutable, bearing in mind it is not my government and the rest of the western world has looked on in stunned disbelief at the implosion of US democracy.
For you and America to try and move to a more inclusive all for one strategy you must embrace just what went wrong and not, as you seem to be doing, apportion the blame equally where one side is more culpable, and like Shifty said, I am not an apologist for those like Hillary as I never liked any of the Clinton's.

Then surely the solution is to vote democrat?

Come on now Biden is every bit the career politician that Hillary was. Biden helped write the patriot act.

I have an unpopular opinion that the Biden administration is doing more to divide the nation, at least along racial lines than the Trump administration did. All this talk about "equity" instead of "equality" is concerning me.

I do think it's fair to apportion blame equally. The democrats haven't been in power for four years, both parties have moved towards authoritarianism so it makes perfect sense that the study would show that the Republicans are more to blame. In another four years we will have better data.

You may or may not agree with the suspension of the constitution due to Covid but no one can deny it's unconstitutional. I like scientists as much as the next guy but there is no clause in the constitution that says that the constitution can be suspended in the event of a pandemic.

You're new to the forum. That thread supporting China is in Angry Ranting and is taking the piss

My skin is thick enough. The problem is the thickness of your skull. You read my posts and your take away is the total opposite of what I said lol

It's easy to call someone thick. It's harder to explain why they are wrong.

I have an unpopular opinion that the Biden administration is doing more to divide the nation, at least along racial lines than the Trump administration did. All this talk about "equity" instead of "equality" is concerning me.

Equality vs Equity


Yes. This concept is very concerning

Yes treating people differently is concerning.

Especially when we treat American citizens differently based on their race.

It's deeply concerning.

Undoubtedly a career politician is a career politician, and as I said your government is undermined by its funding, but you have that blinkered, can't see the wood for the trees, denial of what just happened that I can't help you with, but read the study (below link), it maps trends since 1970, not just the last four years and is unequivocal in its findings.

“The Republican party has not changed left-right placement but moved strongly in an illiberal direction. In this sense it is now more similar to autocratic ruling parties such as the Turkish AKP, and Fidesz in Hungary than to typical center-right governing parties in democracies such as the Conservatives in the UK or CDU in Germany”

So no, I disagree totally to allocating equal blame. Your party as viewed from abroad is going towards autocratic, the Dems' for all their faults are not.

https://www.v-dem.net/media/filer_public/b6/55/b6553f85-5c5d-45ec-be63-a48a2abe3f62/briefing_paper_9.pdf
 

Especially when we treat American citizens differently based on their race.

It's deeply concerning.

OK D1, I've had enough of pandering to your BS. Grow the F up

Quote from: Eren on February 23, 2021, 03:43:42 AM

Especially when we treat American citizens differently based on their race.

It's deeply concerning.

OK D1, I've had enough of pandering to your BS. Grow the F up

What?
That's exactly what is being done in the name of equity.

Undoubtedly a career politician is a career politician, and as I said your government is undermined by its funding, but you have that blinkered, can't see the wood for the trees, denial of what just happened that I can't help you with, but read the study (below link), it maps trends since 1970, not just the last four years and is unequivocal in its findings.

Quote

“The Republican party has not changed left-right placement but moved strongly in an illiberal direction. In this sense it is now more similar to autocratic ruling parties such as the Turkish AKP, and Fidesz in Hungary than to typical center-right governing parties in democracies such as the Conservatives in the UK or CDU in Germany”

So no, I disagree totally to allocating equal blame. Your party as viewed from abroad is going towards autocratic, the Dems' for all their faults are not.

https://www.v-dem.net/media/filer_public/b6/55/b6553f85-5c5d-45ec-be63-a48a2abe3f62/briefing_paper_9.pdf
 

I saw your paper. Please see my response.

"I do think it's fair to apportion blame equally. The democrats haven't been in power for four years, both parties have moved towards authoritarianism so it makes perfect sense that the study would show that the Republicans are more to blame. In another four years we will have better data."

The republicans aren't "my party."

Except you clearly didn't read either that or my response as it and I clearly stated it maps trends from 1970, not just the last 4 years.

Ok, fair bump. If we go from 2001 onwards it's clear the Republicans moved towards Authoritarianism more than the Democrats. The laws passed after 9/11, the patriot act etc.

The thing is that Obama carried on these policies, sure George Bush started them but it's not like Obama retracted any of them.

Also as I stated suspending the bill of rights due to a pandemic is pure authoritarianism, which the democrats seem to be very willing to do, again in fairness the Trump administration didn't really see an issue with suspending the bill of rights either.

I don't think anyone can deny the merger of corporate and government power that we have seen recently which is very reminiscent of Italian fascism. The Democrats are perhaps more in favour of this because the corporations for whatever reason seem to be on their side.

I think both parties are as bad as each other.

I think both parties are as bad as each other.

This is the big lie that bad people say about everyone else to avoid guilt and consequences of their actions.

"All politicians are the same."

"They all lie."

"All are crooks."

You can say the same thing for serial child killers.

"Everyone has hurt a child once! So we are all the same, so why put just THEM in jail?"

You can't say someone who stabs another humans is the same as me because I once aggressively poked someone in the chest with my finger in an argument.  Sure, we both caused harm, but there is a difference. One of us is a violent, dangerous person.

Just as there is a difference between Trump and his Republican enablers and the Democrats.  You can find plenty wrong with the Democrats, but to say they are just as bad?  Nonsense. 

Democrats would NOT have let 500,000 people die from COVID by claiming it was a hoax and actively working against efforts to stop the spread.

Democrats would NOT have invaded Iraq after 9/11 if Gore was President by lying about weapons of mass destruction and being greedy for their oil.

These are not small differences.