Why Should We Go To Mars?

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

Would it be ethical to deny mankind all of the technological advances required to colonize Mars that could also have applications on Earth?

Seven inventions from the Apollo space program we still use today
https://nypost.com/2019/07/08/seven-inventions-from-the-apollo-space-program-we-still-use-today/
(and from other sources):

Apollo Innovations/Inventions:

- Dustbuster
- Thermal blankets
- Advanced cameras
- Fireproof firefighter uniforms/Other fireproof fabric applications
- Vacuum-sealed food
- Shock-absorbing sneaker soles
- Digital fly-by-wire
- Integrated circuits
- Cordless devices
- CAT scanner
- Joystick
- Memory foam
- Scratch resistant lenses
- Smoke detector

Imagine what might come out of Mars exploration endeavors? I mean, c'mon, where would we be as a civilization without the Dustbuster?

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

Would it be ethical to deny mankind all of the technological advances required to colonize Mars that could also have applications on Earth?

You didn't need to physically land on the moon to make a dustbuster.

Until we have the actual technology to do anything with it, why do we plunder the Earth's finite resources. For now at least, Mars colonisation should be a thought experiment. Nothing wrong with those.

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Quote from: markjo on February 27, 2021, 03:08:15 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

Would it be ethical to deny mankind all of the technological advances required to colonize Mars that could also have applications on Earth?

You didn't need to physically land on the moon to make a dustbuster.

Of course not, but it was a byproduct of an effort to land humans on the moon. Had it been a mission to just send a probe to the moon, maybe a dustbuster (and some of the other Human-centric innovations) wouldn't exist.

Until we have the actual technology to do anything with it, why do we plunder the Earth's finite resources. For now at least, Mars colonisation should be a thought experiment. Nothing wrong with those.

I'm not really clear on what plundering earth's natural resources has to do with going to Mars.

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Just because the Russians screwed the pooch and bankrupted themselves, doesn't mean everyone else will. And I think there's a much wider reasoning behind why Russia is where it is now, not just space race expenditures.

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 08:58:00 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2021, 07:26:45 AM

Mars is a hellhole, and there is no changing that with wishful think and handwaving.

No, but hard work, ingenuity and the desire to explore and push boundaries certainly can change it.

Going there is the first step.

Nobody is forcing you to go, nothing wrong with wanting to stay here.  I don't plan on going either.

Just don't stomp on peoples dreams, jeez.  Humanity in general wants to explore, nothing wrong with that either.

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

As expensive as the Mars project would be, it's not causing poverty.  Elon Musk could throw all his money at fighting poverty until he was broke and while he would do a lot of good, it wouldn't be enough and once the money was gone, the problem would still be there.

You could say the same for yourself too. Did you buy a TV or a computer or a phone or subscribe to Netflix? That money could have gone to fight poverty. Anything you buy that isn't directly necessary for your survival is money that could lift someone out of poverty. Is it ethical for you to have anything nice?

It's easy to criticize other people for not spending all their money on charity.

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 08:58:00 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2021, 07:26:45 AM

Mars is a hellhole, and there is no changing that with wishful think and handwaving.

No, but hard work, ingenuity and the desire to explore and push boundaries certainly can change it.

Going there is the first step.

Nobody is forcing you to go, nothing wrong with wanting to stay here.  I don't plan on going either.

Just don't stomp on peoples dreams, jeez.  Humanity in general wants to explore, nothing wrong with that either.

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

As expensive as the Mars project would be, it's not causing poverty.  Elon Musk could throw all his money at fighting poverty until he was broke and while he would do a lot of good, it wouldn't be enough and once the money was gone, the problem would still be there.

You could say the same for yourself too. Did you buy a TV or a computer or a phone or subscribe to Netflix? That money could have gone to fight poverty. Anything you buy that isn't directly necessary for your survival is money that could lift someone out of poverty. Is it ethical for you to have anything nice?

It's easy to criticize other people for not spending all their money on charity.

Cut me some slack man, I just spent $AU950 on a subwoofer for my home theatre set up! Damn SVS and their expensive but highly recommended subwoofers!!! 

Suppose I could have given that money to the guy begging outside a supermarket. Imagine how great his day would have been. Imagine how drunk he could get!!

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Their space program didn't near bankrupt the Soviet Union (Russia), it was their military program.

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 06:33:36 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 08:58:00 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2021, 07:26:45 AM

Mars is a hellhole, and there is no changing that with wishful think and handwaving.

No, but hard work, ingenuity and the desire to explore and push boundaries certainly can change it.

Going there is the first step.

Nobody is forcing you to go, nothing wrong with wanting to stay here.  I don't plan on going either.

Just don't stomp on peoples dreams, jeez.  Humanity in general wants to explore, nothing wrong with that either.

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

As expensive as the Mars project would be, it's not causing poverty.  Elon Musk could throw all his money at fighting poverty until he was broke and while he would do a lot of good, it wouldn't be enough and once the money was gone, the problem would still be there.

You could say the same for yourself too. Did you buy a TV or a computer or a phone or subscribe to Netflix? That money could have gone to fight poverty. Anything you buy that isn't directly necessary for your survival is money that could lift someone out of poverty. Is it ethical for you to have anything nice?

It's easy to criticize other people for not spending all their money on charity.

Cut me some slack man, I just spent $AU950 on a subwoofer for my home theatre set up!

You horrible, horrible person...

(Which Series/Model? I've heard good things about SVS. Worth it? I'm in the market for one)

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 06:42:31 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 06:33:36 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 08:58:00 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2021, 07:26:45 AM

Mars is a hellhole, and there is no changing that with wishful think and handwaving.

No, but hard work, ingenuity and the desire to explore and push boundaries certainly can change it.

Going there is the first step.

Nobody is forcing you to go, nothing wrong with wanting to stay here.  I don't plan on going either.

Just don't stomp on peoples dreams, jeez.  Humanity in general wants to explore, nothing wrong with that either.

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

As expensive as the Mars project would be, it's not causing poverty.  Elon Musk could throw all his money at fighting poverty until he was broke and while he would do a lot of good, it wouldn't be enough and once the money was gone, the problem would still be there.

You could say the same for yourself too. Did you buy a TV or a computer or a phone or subscribe to Netflix? That money could have gone to fight poverty. Anything you buy that isn't directly necessary for your survival is money that could lift someone out of poverty. Is it ethical for you to have anything nice?

It's easy to criticize other people for not spending all their money on charity.

Cut me some slack man, I just spent $AU950 on a subwoofer for my home theatre set up!

You horrible, horrible person...

(Which Series/Model? I've heard good things about SVS. Worth it? I'm in the market for one)

PB1000. Not going for any higher model because I already think $950 is ludicrous (but my other sub died so needed to get one)

Quote from: Stash on February 27, 2021, 07:49:26 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 06:42:31 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 06:33:36 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: JJA on February 27, 2021, 08:58:00 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2021, 07:26:45 AM

Mars is a hellhole, and there is no changing that with wishful think and handwaving.

No, but hard work, ingenuity and the desire to explore and push boundaries certainly can change it.

Going there is the first step.

Nobody is forcing you to go, nothing wrong with wanting to stay here.  I don't plan on going either.

Just don't stomp on peoples dreams, jeez.  Humanity in general wants to explore, nothing wrong with that either.

Except when the money involved for the vain attempt at realising those dreams could literally lift millions of people out of poverty then you have to ask if it's even ethical

As expensive as the Mars project would be, it's not causing poverty.  Elon Musk could throw all his money at fighting poverty until he was broke and while he would do a lot of good, it wouldn't be enough and once the money was gone, the problem would still be there.

You could say the same for yourself too. Did you buy a TV or a computer or a phone or subscribe to Netflix? That money could have gone to fight poverty. Anything you buy that isn't directly necessary for your survival is money that could lift someone out of poverty. Is it ethical for you to have anything nice?

It's easy to criticize other people for not spending all their money on charity.

Cut me some slack man, I just spent $AU950 on a subwoofer for my home theatre set up!

You horrible, horrible person...

(Which Series/Model? I've heard good things about SVS. Worth it? I'm in the market for one)

PB1000. Not going for any higher model because I already think $950 is ludicrous (but my other sub died so needed to get one)

A buddy of mine has the 1000. I think it's the PB. Swears by it.

You could have bought multiple subwoofers for Africans.

When has money send to Africa NOT been burned on weapons, or temporarily water/agriculture/construction systems that failed within several years due to a lack of maintenance/repair skills?

You could have bought multiple subwoofers for Africans.

When has money send to Africa NOT been burned on weapons, or temporarily water/agriculture/construction systems that failed within several years due to a lack of maintenance/repair skills?

Well all righty then.  Thanks for dragging this conversation into the gutter too. 

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 05:11:23 PM

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Their space program didn't near bankrupt the Soviet Union (Russia), it was their military program.

USSR never went into space. It was 100% propaganda from the start. Didn't bankrupt them. And the military program was similar. But they had some good war planes and tanks and very good artillery, of course. Russia today is similar. Drinking is the problem, though, but it is part of the fun.
So today no Russians are going to Mars or anywhere in space.

Quote from: markjo on February 27, 2021, 07:14:45 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 05:11:23 PM

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Their space program didn't near bankrupt the Soviet Union (Russia), it was their military program.

USSR never went into space. It was 100% propaganda from the start. Didn't bankrupt them. And the military program was similar. But they had some good war planes and tanks and very good artillery, of course. Russia today is similar. Drinking is the problem, though, but it is part of the fun.
So today no Russians are going to Mars or anywhere in space.

Now we're out of the gutter and back into fantasy land. Thanks!

Quote from: Heiwa on March 06, 2021, 02:24:46 AM

Quote from: markjo on February 27, 2021, 07:14:45 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 05:11:23 PM

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Their space program didn't near bankrupt the Soviet Union (Russia), it was their military program.

USSR never went into space. It was 100% propaganda from the start. Didn't bankrupt them. And the military program was similar. But they had some good war planes and tanks and very good artillery, of course. Russia today is similar. Drinking is the problem, though, but it is part of the fun.
So today no Russians are going to Mars or anywhere in space.

Now we're out of the gutter and back into fantasy land. Thanks!

They didn't find any gutters or canals on Mars. The pictures looked like the Nevada desert used for Hollywood westerns. Great show!

Quote from: JJA on March 06, 2021, 04:10:26 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on March 06, 2021, 02:24:46 AM

Quote from: markjo on February 27, 2021, 07:14:45 PM

Quote from: Shifter on February 27, 2021, 05:11:23 PM

You could also look at Russia and their space program and how the space race etc near bankrupted the nation. Now look at how Russians are living and imagine if those billions spent were spent on its people instead.

Their space program didn't near bankrupt the Soviet Union (Russia), it was their military program.

USSR never went into space. It was 100% propaganda from the start. Didn't bankrupt them. And the military program was similar. But they had some good war planes and tanks and very good artillery, of course. Russia today is similar. Drinking is the problem, though, but it is part of the fun.
So today no Russians are going to Mars or anywhere in space.

Now we're out of the gutter and back into fantasy land. Thanks!

They didn't find any gutters or canals on Mars. The pictures looked like the Nevada desert used for Hollywood westerns. Great show!

You keep on being you.  Nobody else could handle it.

You could have bought multiple subwoofers for Africans.

When has money send to Africa NOT been burned on weapons, or temporarily water/agriculture/construction systems that failed within several years due to a lack of maintenance/repair skills?

When we gave cash to a whole village directly.

The thing is this: we could lift millions of people out of poverty.  But more millions of people don't want that.  So we don't. (See democracy)
Instead those people want to explore space.  And lets be frank: if we can successfully survive on Mars, we can basically live anywhere.  And if we can do that, our infection rate can skyrocket.  Is that not worth it?

We could cancel every space program on the planet and it wouldn't put a dent in poverty.  If we took NASA's budget and distributed it to every American citizen, they would each get $60. 

Exploring space doesn't cause poverty.  Wealth inequity causes poverty.

It's been repeatedly pointed out that around 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program.  That means 400,000 people across the country had jobs because of Apollo and were able to spend their paychecks to keep their local economies going.  Just imagine how many Earth based jobs would be required to get a Martian colony going.

It's been repeatedly pointed out that around 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program.  That means 400,000 people across the country had jobs because of Apollo and were able to spend their paychecks to keep their local economies going.  Just imagine how many Earth based jobs would be required to get a Martian colony going.

Maybe it was 400 at Hollywood and 400 at some workshops putting the props together. It was a great show, of course, but Neal was boring and Buzz an alcoholic. The Russians had a beauty queen in space. Valentina Tereshkova! She was and still is much better. But never in space!

Quote from: markjo on March 07, 2021, 08:18:48 AM

It's been repeatedly pointed out that around 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program.  That means 400,000 people across the country had jobs because of Apollo and were able to spend their paychecks to keep their local economies going.  Just imagine how many Earth based jobs would be required to get a Martian colony going.

Maybe it was 400 at Hollywood and 400 at some workshops putting the props together. It was a great show, of course, but Neal was boring and Buzz an alcoholic. The Russians had a beauty queen in space. Valentina Tereshkova! She was and still is much better. But never in space!

So NASA faked jobs for 400 000 people, right?

We could cancel every space program on the planet and it wouldn't put a dent in poverty.  If we took NASA's budget and distributed it to every American citizen, they would each get $60. 

Exploring space doesn't cause poverty.  Wealth inequity causes poverty.

Indeed, there are a lot worse things to spend your money on.  By the way, my scepticism is with the idea of spending money on space "exploration" and engineering, it's with the terrible idea of a mars colony.  Mars would be an appalling place to live, even if were even possible (which it currently isn't).  But I guess we're done with that debate and morons like  Heiwa have come to trash the thread anyway.

By the way, just ignore him  - he only posts for attention and if he doesn't get any then he will clear off.

Quote from: Heiwa on March 07, 2021, 08:39:01 AM

Quote from: markjo on March 07, 2021, 08:18:48 AM

It's been repeatedly pointed out that around 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program.  That means 400,000 people across the country had jobs because of Apollo and were able to spend their paychecks to keep their local economies going.  Just imagine how many Earth based jobs would be required to get a Martian colony going.

Maybe it was 400 at Hollywood and 400 at some workshops putting the props together. It was a great show, of course, but Neal was boring and Buzz an alcoholic. The Russians had a beauty queen in space. Valentina Tereshkova! She was and still is much better. But never in space!

So basa faked jobs for 400 000 people, right?

Yes, NASA faked 400 000 jobs. The jobs never existed. It was fake news! Propaganda. Similar with the a-bombs.

Mars would be an appalling place to live, even if were even possible (which it currently isn't).

What makes you so certain?  I contend that it's absolutely certain that we could live on Mars, for a while at least.  After all, the moon is even more appalling than Mars, yet people were able to live there for a few days.  We even have a space station where people have been living for over 20 years.  It's all a matter of developing the right infrastructure and having regular supply deliveries until some level of self-sufficiency can be achieved.  Of course it will be exceedingly difficult and mind bogglingly expensive, but that's all part of the pioneering spirit that lives deep inside the hearts of the select few who are willing to face the challenges to make it happen.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 07, 2021, 11:35:39 AM

Mars would be an appalling place to live, even if were even possible (which it currently isn't).

What makes you so certain?

I think it is objectively a terrible place to live, at least from a human perspective.  There maybe lifeforms adapted to -60c to 20c temperatures, almost no atmosphere, no surface water, 0.3g gravity, lashings of ionising radiation and a diet of dust.   That's not us. 

  I contend that it's absolutely certain that we could live on Mars, for a while at least.  After all, the moon is even more appalling than Mars, yet people were able to live there for a few days.

You are stretching the term "living there" somewhat. Visiting might be the proper term.   I've no doubt that given the right equipment humans could survive for some time there.  That's a long way from anything you could refer to as a colony, which is what I'm arguing against.

but that's all part of the pioneering spirit that lives deep inside the hearts of the select few who are willing to face the challenges to make it happen.

This sort of stuff is probably more in the cultural DNA of Americans than us Brits, so maybe we just don't get it. 

However, as I said before I don't think the desire to go to mars has anything to do with say the desires of the Mayflower passengers or even from the pioneering/exploring spirit of someone like Ferdinand Magellan.  It comes from the same desire there was to climb Everest, which, as George Mallory put it so honestly when asked why he was doing it, said "because it's there".  Acknowledging that is ultimately pointless and irrational, but he still wants to do it.  I get that.

If the likes of Musk gave that as answer I'd have a lot more respect for them.  Instead egomaniacs like him have to somehow align this with saving humanity or some such drivel.   I'm sure it will sell a few cars though, he's not daft.

I think it does depend on how you define "colonize". I was reading somewhere, that every 2 years or so Mars and Earth are closest to each other which gives you a one way transit duration of about 7 months. So it we sent people there to explore, it's 7 months there, 7 months back, and maybe a 2 years stay in between. I don't know if that constitutes a "settlement" in a traditional sense. But it is a long time to be off-earth.

I don't think we've "colonized" LEO with the ISS, so yeah, maybe we are just really talking about manned exploration. And I don't know what to consider our presence in Antarctica to be considered either.

Quote from: JJA on March 07, 2021, 04:33:12 AM

We could cancel every space program on the planet and it wouldn't put a dent in poverty.  If we took NASA's budget and distributed it to every American citizen, they would each get $60. 

Exploring space doesn't cause poverty.  Wealth inequity causes poverty.

Indeed, there are a lot worse things to spend your money on.  By the way, my scepticism is with the idea of spending money on space "exploration" and engineering, it's with the terrible idea of a mars colony.  Mars would be an appalling place to live, even if were even possible (which it currently isn't).  But I guess we're done with that debate and morons like  Heiwa have come to trash the thread anyway.

By the way, just ignore him  - he only posts for attention and if he doesn't get any then he will clear off.

I really would rather we set up a moon base.  It's closer, easier to supply and communicate with and lots of science could be done on the 'dark' side.  Leave Mars to the robots, at least until we've managed to completely rule out finding any life, or signs that it used to have life.

By Reality: Mars is ILLUMINIOUS. By CGI: Mars is EARTH.

Why are you posting an Artist's rendering from 2017 from NASA/JPL? Here's the original with caption:


https://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA22111

How about these pics?

https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cinstrument_sort+asc%2Csample_type_sort+asc%2C+date_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=msl