Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math

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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2021, 12:33:05 PM »
Critical thinking skills and logic in general are under-taught in school.

I think you nailed it.  It's not just in mathematics that clear thinking skills are lacking.


This is true, but its especially prevalant and destructive in mathematics.

For example, a restricted list of some essential classes:
English or Language Arts.
Mathematics.
Science.
Social Studies.
Foreign Languages.

I could make an argument that its just as destructive in science. Aside from that, the rest are barely harmed by rote memorization vs proper thought. In spite of this, we find more creative thinking in those that would be harmed less by rote memorization.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2021, 02:39:00 PM »
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Reach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime

In Math, you are taught how to pass a test. You aren't taught much that enables you the skills or knowledge to learn on your own

We all learnt the times table's up to 12. We can all recite what any answer is inside it. But 13x8? Or 14x9? Watch people stumble.

That is because they weren't taught the skills. The answer is not memorising a larger set of numbers. It's giving them the tools so they can understand the how and why

I used to get 100% on the tests for trigonometry but honestly I never knew what any of it meant. Why I scored high? Because you just used a calculator. Memorising a step by step process to come up with an answer but not being taught what anything meant. Shit teacher, shitty syllabus, shit learning outcomes all round

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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2021, 03:18:25 PM »
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Reach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime

In Math, you are taught how to pass a test. You aren't taught much that enables you the skills or knowledge to learn on your own

We all learnt the times table's up to 12. We can all recite what any answer is inside it. But 13x8? Or 14x9? Watch people stumble.

That is because they weren't taught the skills. The answer is not memorising a larger set of numbers. It's giving them the tools so they can understand the how and why

I used to get 100% on the tests for trigonometry but honestly I never knew what any of it meant. Why I scored high? Because you just used a calculator. Memorising a step by step process to come up with an answer but not being taught what anything meant. Shit teacher, shitty syllabus, shit learning outcomes all round

Yes, and I would also add that you are taught to pass tests because math has become a yardstick to rank people instead of something meaningful.

About multiplication, it is very bizarre how there isn't more emphasis on using the distributive and commutative properties. If you wanna teach something, teach how 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10 multiply numbers from 1 to 10. And even that may be a bit excessive.

For instance, the first one you can break apart into (10+3)x8. Using the distributive property, if you know how to do then you're set. Even if you don't remember that, you can figure it out very easily.

The second one is also very easy if you are taught to do these things. This time you use commutative properly. 14x9 is 2x7x9. 7x9 is 7 less than 7x10 (again the distributive property but with subtraction), so 63. Multiplying that by 2 is easy. Give kids the hint that when they see big even numbers, they can break them up. Or you could also use distributive peppery here, make it (10+4)x9 and add 36 to 90.

It teaches another important thing which is that when you have a hard problem you don't know, you break it up. And there are many ways to break it up, there is no single right answer for what the best one is and kids can exercise figuring out all the different ways that make it more convenient for them.

In fact the distributive property thing is the standard algorithm for multiplication that students are taught but they're not taught it that way, instead it just seems like some opaque mumbo jumbo algorithm with digit carrying that kids don't understand but learn to just apply. No one needs to know the algorithm. If you ever have to do an operation so big that you need the algo, you will have your phone available to do it for you.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
You two have stated it better than I have; well said.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2021, 07:33:25 PM »
In Math, you are taught how to pass a test. You aren't taught much that enables you the skills or knowledge to learn on your own.
Obviously things have changed since I learned math.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2021, 02:52:34 AM »
Also, another thing that is never taught is estimation/informed guesses and approximation. That's exactly because of the silly idea that math is only about right and wrong answers whereas it rarely works like that in the real world. When I entered uni I was surprised by how useful and widely used guesstimation and approximation (especially the latter) is. It takes getting used to because in school you are used to neat and tidy precise results all the time, and you're like "wtf why do I just ignore the rest of these terms in this Taylor series? Wait, why do I expect linear dependence here?" etc. But if you say that the people who don't really know how math works and is applied in the real world will explode because they think you want children to learn wrong stuff.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2021, 03:09:52 AM »

This is true, but its especially prevalant and destructive in mathematics.

For example, a restricted list of some essential classes:
English or Language Arts.
Mathematics.
Science.
Social Studies.
Foreign Languages.

I could make an argument that its just as destructive in science. Aside from that, the rest are barely harmed by rote memorization vs proper thought. In spite of this, we find more creative thinking in those that would be harmed less by rote memorization.

I’d say languages are the most rote taught in this list, and with good reason because that’s how you get fluent.  Starting with simply  understanding your native language through nothing but hearing repetition as a baby, then learning to read, write and spell.  You learn how grammar really works much later and maybe get to appreciate literature, poetry, etc.

Learning a foreign language is similarly rote, except you’re generally taught the grammar rules from the outset.  When I was trying to teach myself German I made the mistake of getting way too caught up in trying to understand the rules and not enough just practicing with people.  I don’t recommend it.  If you want to be fluent, just drum it into yourself.

As for the article, it makes some interesting points, but goes way overboard IMO.  Comparisons to art and music seems like a false equivalence to me.  They are entirely creative subjects, whereas maths is a tool and a language.  The author argues that maths is an art, but I disagree.  There is a certain beauty to the fundamental relations in numbers, particularly with things like trigonometry, but those relations have right and wrong answers.

For instance, the internal angles of a triangle (in Euclidean geometry) add up to 180 degrees.  This can be demonstrated in visually in various ways which is probably a better way to engage children than just learning it as a fact, however it is still a fact. 

Or the author’s own example of a triangle in a box.  He starts off saying this:

Quote
The first thing to understand is that mathematics is an art. The difference between math and the other arts, such as music and painting, is that our culture does not recognize it as such.

And then for all his talk about playing around with his imagination, he goes on to derive a formula, the correct formula:

A = 1/2 b h

Music and painting don’t have right or wrong answers, it’s about expression.  That’s the difference.

Also I see the conventions of how it’s written more like spelling is to a language than stave notation is to music.  If you need to communicate what you’ve done, or understand what someone else has done, it’s much easier if everyone agrees on how it’s written.

The author appears to be a pure mathematician, interested in maths for its own sake.  He suggests that children are taught to discover it on their own. I can see some merit in that up to a point, but maths is also a tool and can be a means to an end. 

From an engineering perspective I could argue that another way to engage children is to put more emphasis on using it to solve  practical real world problems.  For example teaching calculus with examples of distance, velocity and acceleration.  That can also require thinking about what you’re doing more than rote learning as well as making maths less abstract.

Some interesting points, but he kind of ruined it.



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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2021, 04:35:39 AM »
I disagree that the issue with math is that it is too abstract. It could be more abstract and still be better. Basic math shouldn't be abstract of course. But there is nothing wrong with abstraction later on. Understanding abstraction is a very useful skill that goes beyond math. Perhaps it could be split into two different subjects, applied math and pure math.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 04:46:16 AM by Pezevenk »
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2021, 08:55:54 AM »
Also, another thing that is never taught is estimation/informed guesses and approximation. That's exactly because of the silly idea that math is only about right and wrong answers whereas it rarely works like that in the real world. When I entered uni I was surprised by how useful and widely used guesstimation and approximation (especially the latter) is. It takes getting used to because in school you are used to neat and tidy precise results all the time, and you're like "wtf why do I just ignore the rest of these terms in this Taylor series? Wait, why do I expect linear dependence here?" etc. But if you say that the people who don't really know how math works and is applied in the real world will explode because they think you want children to learn wrong stuff.

Estimation was certainly taught when I was in school
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2021, 11:22:55 AM »
I don’t think it’s a problem being taught as abstract concepts.  Just suggesting that there’s other ways to make lessons less repetitive as well.  Applied maths is sometimes taught as a separate subject, but it tends to be quite late on.  Well, actually it’s usually taught right at the beginning too “Jonny has 8 apples and gives Sarah 3...” etc.

Personally I think balance is important.  Children could have some lesson time on the things the author thinks is important, some examples of useful applications, as well as regular learning and practice.

What gets me about the article is how its completely skewed it is.  The author is completely dismissive of the the great many people who need to use maths for practical purposes.  Such as here:

Quote
SIMPLICIO:
But don’t we need people to learn those useful consequences of math? Don’t we need accountants and carpenters and such?
How many people actually use any of this “practical math” they supposedly learn in school?

SALVIATI:
Do you think carpenters are out there using trigonometry? How many adults remember how to divide fractions, or solve a quadratic equation? Obviously the current practical training program isn’t working, and for good reason: it is excruciatingly boring, and nobody ever uses it anyway. So why do people think it’s so important? I don’t see how it’s doing society any good to have its members walking around with vague memories of algebraic formulas and geometric diagrams, and clear memories of hating them. It might do some good, though, to show them something beautiful and give them an opportunity to enjoy being
creative, flexible, open-minded thinkers— the kind of thing a real mathematical education might provide.

Seriously? What about all the  scientists, engineers, architects, surveyors, astronomers, ships navigators, etc, etc?  Probably a fair few carpenters too.

Not too mention this grade A post modernist twaddle:

Quote
It would be bad enough if the culture were merely ignorant of mathematics, but what is far worse is that people actually think they do know what math is about— and are apparently under the gross misconception that mathematics is somehow useful to society!

There’s one or two people posting in another section of the forum who I might expect to say something like this.  But an actual mathematician?  Amazing.

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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2021, 11:28:09 AM »
Interesting take on teaching Math that I think has been echoed here already:

"I think that the biggest problem with math is a branding issue where people think that math is rote, boring, and about memorization. If you ask me what math is I'll say math is actually the distilled heart of thinking."

This U.S. Olympiad Coach Has a Unique Approach to Math


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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2021, 01:45:36 PM »
There’s one or two people posting in another section of the forum who I might expect to say something like this.  But an actual mathematician?  Amazing.
Actual mathematicians know it is true lol

Well alright, it's not exactly true, it is an exaggeration, but when you get to modern pure math, only a tiny sliver is actually even conceivably useful, and most math at the senior highschool level isn't useful at all in "day to day life" for the average person. Of course there is tons of math which is extremely useful, but only for people who work in some (not all) STEM subjects, and modern pure mathematics won't even be useful to them, but only to people doing frontier research which will usually takes a lot of time to be applied, and even then the applications are usually in more research. Something doesn't have to be "useful" to be worthwhile, and focusing on trying to convince students it is useful for them won't work because they won't be convinced, because it isn't. Who (beyond people who study sciences that deal a lot with math) has ever "needed" to do an integral for their daily life or profession? You can't convince someone who isn't going to study STEM or is going to study some section of STEM that doesn't really involve math beyond very basic stuff that it is practically useful to them.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2021, 02:19:05 PM »
Also, another thing that is never taught is estimation/informed guesses and approximation. That's exactly because of the silly idea that math is only about right and wrong answers whereas it rarely works like that in the real world. When I entered uni I was surprised by how useful and widely used guesstimation and approximation (especially the latter) is. It takes getting used to because in school you are used to neat and tidy precise results all the time, and you're like "wtf why do I just ignore the rest of these terms in this Taylor series? Wait, why do I expect linear dependence here?" etc. But if you say that the people who don't really know how math works and is applied in the real world will explode because they think you want children to learn wrong stuff.
Oh they teach that now. My son has been "taught how to estimate."

It takes more rote steps than the actual calculation would in the first place.
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Re: Why Folks Hate / Are Bad At Math
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2021, 06:09:03 PM »
There’s one or two people posting in another section of the forum who I might expect to say something like this.  But an actual mathematician?  Amazing.
Actual mathematicians know it is true lol

Well alright, it's not exactly true, it is an exaggeration, but when you get to modern pure math, only a tiny sliver is actually even conceivably useful, and most math at the senior highschool level isn't useful at all in "day to day life" for the average person. Of course there is tons of math which is extremely useful, but only for people who work in some (not all) STEM subjects, and modern pure mathematics won't even be useful to them, but only to people doing frontier research which will usually takes a lot of time to be applied, and even then the applications are usually in more research. Something doesn't have to be "useful" to be worthwhile, and focusing on trying to convince students it is useful for them won't work because they won't be convinced, because it isn't. Who (beyond people who study sciences that deal a lot with math) has ever "needed" to do an integral for their daily life or profession? You can't convince someone who isn't going to study STEM or is going to study some section of STEM that doesn't really involve math beyond very basic stuff that it is practically useful to them.

Last I checked, STEM subjects are very useful to society (some bias here), and maths is essential to go on to study at least some of them.  Most children don't know what they want to eventually go into until quite late on, so we need to give them a broad education to keep their options open.  But they aren't stupid, they understand that they need to do well in certain subjects if they do pick that path. 

I'm not sure what you mean about "high level research", or "modern pure mathematics", but "high school level maths" is barely an introduction to the engineering maths I needed to get through university.  And that's after I'd already picked maths as one of my 3 subjects (age 16-18).

You're right that education doesn't need to be useful to be worthwhile though.  It also doesn't need to pretend that maths is like painting.