Equitable Math

  • 394 Replies
  • 27874 Views
*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2021, 05:18:35 AM »
Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?

A significant portion of higher mathematics doesn't involve numbers directly, in the sense of numerical calculations per se.

Set Theory,  Logic, Topology are just a couple off the top of my head. 

Even "number theory" is more to do with logic and rigor than numerical calculations.

Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

*

Wolvaccine

  • EXTRA SPICY MODE
  • 25833
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2021, 05:19:23 AM »
Alright but then why do Asian students far outperform European students in mathematics in America?

D1 have you heard of the expression 'Tiger Mum'?

Do you know what it's like to be a kid in Asia regarding education and schooling?

Do you think a lot of Asians wear glasses because they have poorer genetics in this regard?

Actually it is because they are kept indoors a lot, out of the sun and study with 'free time' a foreign concept

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-so-many-chinese-children-wear-glasses-2014-11?r=US&IR=T
Quote
The biggest factor in short-sightedness is a lack of time spent outdoors. Exposure to daylight helps the retina to release a chemical that slows down an increase in the eye’s axial length, which is what most often causes myopia.

A combination of not being outdoors and doing lots of work focusing up close (like writing characters or reading) worsens the problem. But if a child has enough time in the open, they can study all they like and their eyesight should not suffer, says Ian Morgan of Australian National University.

Yet China and many other East Asian countries do not prize time outdoors. At the age of six, children in China and Australia have similar rates of myopia. Once they start school, Chinese children spend about an hour a day outside, compared with three or four hours for Australian ones.

Schoolchildren in China are often made to take a nap after lunch rather than play outside; they then go home to do far more homework than anywhere outside East Asia. The older children in China are, the more they stay indoors – and not because of the country’s notorious pollution.

Since poor sight is associated with higher incomes and more schooling, it is less prevalent in rural areas of China. In the countryside, a third of primary-school students are myopic, compared with nearly half of urban children, according to the health ministry.

Could it be perhaps, that Asians do better in math because they spend so much time studying whereas their western counterparts spend so much time playing?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

*

JJA

  • 6869
  • Math is math!
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2021, 05:20:28 AM »
I think that math unlike science is neutral, assuming physical laws held constant a civilisation on another planet would know geometry such as Pi and Pythagoras theory.

The OP is about how the teaching of math is not neutral, not that math itself isn't.

Anyone who thinks math isn't taught differently to races and genders needs to remember the "math is hard" Barbie.


?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2021, 05:23:13 AM »
Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?

A significant portion of higher mathematics doesn't involve numbers directly, in the sense of numerical calculations per se.

Set Theory,  Logic, Topology are just a couple off the top of my head. 

Even "number theory" is more to do with logic and rigor than numerical calculations.

Can you provide an example?
I can't find one.

Set theory absolutely involves numbers.
"Contemporary research into set theory includes a diverse collection of topics, ranging from the structure of the real number line to the study of the consistency of large cardinals. "

So does Topology.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology

Logic like computer science is nothing but numbers, zeros and ones specifically.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 05:29:24 AM by Eren »

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2021, 05:24:05 AM »
I think that math unlike science is neutral, assuming physical laws held constant a civilisation on another planet would know geometry such as Pi and Pythagoras theory.

The OP is about how the teaching of math is not neutral, not that math itself isn't.

Anyone who thinks math isn't taught differently to races and genders needs to remember the "math is hard" Barbie.

Do Asian males have an advantage in the way math is taught in America?

Why do they perform so much better than other races?

Also what's Shifters problem?

*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2021, 05:31:52 AM »
Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?

A significant portion of higher mathematics doesn't involve numbers directly, in the sense of numerical calculations per se.

Set Theory,  Logic, Topology are just a couple off the top of my head. 

Even "number theory" is more to do with logic and rigor than numerical calculations.

Can you provide an example?
I can't find one.

Set theory absolutely involves numbers.
"Contemporary research into set theory includes a diverse collection of topics, ranging from the structure of the real number line to the study of the consistency of large cardinals. "

Ok,  so you've never done any set theory, or number theory it seems.   No biggie,  I'll just move along.

Quoting
"Set theory is a branch of mathematical logic that studies sets, which informally are collections of objects. Although any type of object can be collected into a set, set theory is applied most often to objects that are relevant to mathematics. The language of set theory can be used to define nearly all mathematical objects."
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 05:34:22 AM by JerkFace »
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2021, 05:35:24 AM »
Collection of objects.

Like the number of objects in a collection?

*

JJA

  • 6869
  • Math is math!
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2021, 05:35:43 AM »
I think that math unlike science is neutral, assuming physical laws held constant a civilisation on another planet would know geometry such as Pi and Pythagoras theory.

The OP is about how the teaching of math is not neutral, not that math itself isn't.

Anyone who thinks math isn't taught differently to races and genders needs to remember the "math is hard" Barbie.

Do Asian males have an advantage in the way math is taught in America?

Why do they perform so much better than other races?

Also what's Shifters problem?

Some Asian males have an advantage because their parents push them harder to study because of their cultural norms. 

And yes, the way math is taught in America gives them an advantage.  They are expected to do better, so teachers are likely going to also push them harder to do better.  If an Asian gets a C on a math paper, a teacher is far more likely to take them aside and try and help them than some black girl from the hood who got a C, because well that's just expected she's not going to do very well in math.  It's normal for her to get a C, but that Asian kid from a wealthy family? Something must be wrong.

That's why they perform better.  It's cultural, and baked in to our expectations at this point.  You EXPECT the Asian kid to do better, and they SEE THIS and feel pressured to meet those expectations.  Kids are not blind, they are very aware of hos teachers treat them, and will work as hard or as little as they are encouraged, or discouraged from.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2021, 05:39:36 AM »
Would the solution be to hold "blacks from the hood" to the same standard as Asians?

I'd be all for that. It's equality however, not equity. One standard for everyone.

Having good parents isn't a racial issue.

*

JJA

  • 6869
  • Math is math!
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2021, 05:44:48 AM »
Would the solution be to hold "blacks from the hood" to the same standard as Asians?

I'd be all for that. It's equality however, not equity. One standard for everyone.

Having good parents isn't a racial issue.

Being wealthy doesn't make you good.

Pushing your kids to excel to the point they commit suicide isn't good.

Treating children differently because of their race, is racist.

So yes, the solution would be to treat people as individuals and not as races, classes or genders of people.

*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2021, 05:46:37 AM »
Collection of objects.

Like the number of objects in a collection?

Nope.    Think about the properties of the objects,  not the number.   

Have you ever seen a venn diagram?
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2021, 05:47:19 AM »
Would the solution be to hold "blacks from the hood" to the same standard as Asians?

I'd be all for that. It's equality however, not equity. One standard for everyone.

Having good parents isn't a racial issue.

Being wealthy doesn't make you good.

Pushing your kids to excel to the point they commit suicide isn't good.

Treating children differently because of their race, is racist.

So yes, the solution would be to treat people as individuals and not as races, classes or genders of people.

I agree, this whole thing about equity is ridiculous. We should just treat every citizen equally.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2021, 05:49:18 AM »
Collection of objects.

Like the number of objects in a collection?

Nope.    Think about the properties of the objects,  not the number.   

Have you ever seen a venn diagram?

Yeah, it's a visual representation of numbers.



*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2021, 06:06:00 AM »
Collection of objects.

Like the number of objects in a collection?

Nope.    Think about the properties of the objects,  not the number.   

Have you ever seen a venn diagram?

Yeah, it's a visual representation of numbers.



Set theory is taught in primary schools using venn diagrams,  seems you failed to grasp the concept that an object can have properties. 
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2021, 06:09:40 AM »
Of course objects can have properties. No one could argue against that. Just like no one could argue that a Venn Diagram isn't a visual representation of numbers.

?

Jamie

  • 1723
  • Retired
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #75 on: February 23, 2021, 06:14:20 AM »
Although some of the stuff in this is definitely unhelpful and wrong. But the reason it's always math etc with these outrage articles it is because they try to make it seem like what is being challenged is, like, the truth of math itself or whatever as opposed to the teaching of math which is a different thing.

Pedagogy, or the approach to teaching, should absolutely be an evidence-based, research-informed practice. And teachers should be willing to professionally develop themselves and read an academic journal or two to keep up with the newer developments in the field. That may sometimes include realizing that something they've been doing doesn't really work and that there's a better way, or even a totally different way, to do things.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #76 on: February 23, 2021, 07:16:22 AM »
Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?
I mean, you can even find lower mathematics that doesn't involve numbers. For instance Euclidean geometry (NOT analytic geometry). But sure, like, off the top of my head, topology. No numbers in topology for the most part. Other large sections of math, like, say, differential equations, may use numbers in a "roundabout" way, or numbers may appear in some formulas but without playing a significant role.

Quote
Of course it's about who does better, the OP is about equitable maths. Which means making sure everyone is equally successful in math, regardless of ability.

Equitable means fair.

Quote
You admitted yourself you think math or the teaching of math at least perpetuates discrimination. You would expect the group that isn't being discriminated against to perform the best.
First of all, I said this is what they are arguing, I don't think it's entirely true. Second, no, that's not what it means, it's not that it is "rigged" in favour of a specific group and only that group, but that it promotes the values and aims of said group which may or may not be shared with other groups.

Quote
We can disagree about the method of the math but we can't disagree with whether it works or not. French and Russian engineers use the same formulas because they work.
Engineers aren't mathematicians though.

Quote
If the French had one value for Pi and the Russians had another, one would be right and the other would be wrong.
Is 0 positive or negative? In school you learn it is neither. In France they learn it is both. They're using a different definition.

That's a very minor thing and certainly, working from the same system of axioms on the same problem, math universally gives the same answers. But the acceptable level of rigour varies, the choice of axioms varies, the problems tackled vary, the attitude towards the results varies, the choice of path towards solutions varies, and then you have constructivists rejecting one of the key logical principles used by classical mathematics to prove theorems. That's because there is a lot more to math than the really simple stuff like the value of pi.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #77 on: February 23, 2021, 08:21:49 PM »
Of course objects can have properties. No one could argue against that. Just like no one could argue that a Venn Diagram isn't a visual representation of numbers.

So what numbers does the diagram you posted represent?
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2021, 10:21:50 PM »
Of course objects can have properties. No one could argue against that. Just like no one could argue that a Venn Diagram isn't a visual representation of numbers.

So what numbers does the diagram you posted represent?

Percentages.

*

Rayzor

  • 12111
  • Looking for Occam
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #79 on: February 25, 2021, 12:48:54 AM »
Of course objects can have properties. No one could argue against that. Just like no one could argue that a Venn Diagram isn't a visual representation of numbers.

So what numbers does the diagram you posted represent?

Percentages.

Of what?
Stop gilding the pickle, you demisexual aromantic homoflexible snowflake.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2021, 12:51:44 AM »
The Venn Diagram isn't specific beyond same different and same.

So using a visual representation of what percentage fits into one of the two or both.

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2021, 12:53:52 AM »
Equitable means fair.

Perhaps by an outdated definition of it but equity has a new meaning. Shifter posted a meme that illustrates it well.

Equality vs Equity


*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2021, 01:27:39 AM »
Equitable means fair.

Perhaps by an outdated definition of it but equity has a new meaning. Shifter posted a meme that illustrates it well.

Equality vs Equity


I'm not really concerned with dumb dictionary definition debates.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2021, 01:28:33 AM »
Of course objects can have properties. No one could argue against that. Just like no one could argue that a Venn Diagram isn't a visual representation of numbers.

So what numbers does the diagram you posted represent?

Percentages.

That is a pie chart, not a Venn diagram. Venn diagrams have nothing to do with numbers. They have to do with sets.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2021, 01:32:35 AM »
Neither am I, it's just that equity doesn't mean equality. At least not any more.

Equality means everyone is treated the same. Equity means that people who are perceived to be oppressed are given special treatment.

It says Venn Diagram on the picture. It deals in percentages of sets. I thought you weren't interested in debating semantics.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=venn+diagram&t=fpas&ia=web

Quote
A Venn diagram in which the area of each shape is proportional to the number of elements it contains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 01:34:26 AM by Eren »

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2021, 01:34:23 AM »
Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?

A significant portion of higher mathematics doesn't involve numbers directly, in the sense of numerical calculations per se.

Set Theory,  Logic, Topology are just a couple off the top of my head. 

Even "number theory" is more to do with logic and rigor than numerical calculations.

Can you provide an example?
I can't find one.

Set theory absolutely involves numbers.
"Contemporary research into set theory includes a diverse collection of topics, ranging from the structure of the real number line to the study of the consistency of large cardinals. "

So does Topology.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topology

Logic like computer science is nothing but numbers, zeros and ones specifically.

No, you're very wrong here. Studying the properties of the real number line is an object of study in set theory and topology, but 1) the real number line is an abstraction which doesn't really have as much to do with numbers as one might think at first, and 2) it's only part of these subjects. It's like saying medicine is the study of cancer treatment. Cancer treatment is part of medicine but medicine isn't just about cancer.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2021, 01:36:29 AM »
Well, then you're admitting that numbers have a part in all mathematics.

I'm actually not that interested in debating semantics.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2021, 01:43:18 AM »
Neither am I, it's just that equity doesn't mean equality. At least not any more.

Yes, equitable means fair, which is... What I said??

Quote
Equality means everyone is treated the same.

How is that in conflict with what I said? Like, the meme Shifter posted demonstrates this, if you just treat everyone "the same" then that doesn't do anything for the short kid, it's not "fair".

Quote
A Venn diagram in which the area of each shape is proportional to the number of elements it contains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram
[/quote]
That is an area proportional Venn diagram you genius, no one does them because they are useless and hard to draw. Venn diagrams have nothing to do with percentages or numbers. They're a way to visualise sets and inclusion.

Quote
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=venn+diagram&t=fpas&ia=Web

Hang the fuck on, I know who you are. I see what this is.

Quote
Well, then you're admitting that numbers have a part in all mathematics.


This is literally the opposite of what I said you baby brain. Is medicine about cancer treatment? Does all medicine have to do with cancer treatment? How hard is this to comprehend? You don't know shit about math so how about you listen to people who do for a change, D1?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

?

Eren

  • 343
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2021, 01:47:14 AM »
Quote
A Venn diagram in which the area of each shape is proportional to the number of elements it contains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

Equality vs Equity


Did D1 also compliment you on having principles? This is the strangest website I have ever visited.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15363
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Equitable Math
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2021, 01:47:57 AM »
Quote
A Venn diagram in which the area of each shape is proportional to the number of elements it contains
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

Equality vs Equity

Are you supposed to be making a point here?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)