Equitable Math

Yes he does, he's kinda flat, you know.

Yes he does, he's kinda flat, you know.

Not really.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 15, 2021, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: WISHTOLAUGH on February 15, 2021, 10:09:04 AM

You do not even recognize that skill at math is a requisite for the STEM disciplines.

Reading comprehension fail.   He just said the opposite. 

I've no idea what the rest of your rambling is about.

Evident.

He stated he hoped they steered clear of the STEM disciplines. An attack on learning math is an attack on the STEM disciplines.

Looks like you got me. I'm secretly out to turn math into gender studies. And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling rounders!

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 15, 2021, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: WISHTOLAUGH on February 15, 2021, 10:09:04 AM

You do not even recognize that skill at math is a requisite for the STEM disciplines.

Reading comprehension fail.   He just said the opposite. 

I've no idea what the rest of your rambling is about.

Evident.

He stated he hoped they steered clear of the STEM disciplines. An attack on learning math is an attack on the STEM disciplines.

That was his point, you muppet.

Let's all go easy on lackey WISHTOLAUGH, he's been away and out of practice. He'll be back in top form soon enough. Until then, I'll just remind everyone that there's a section specifically for shitposting, and it is a joyous and wonderful place.

Quote from: WISHTOLAUGH on February 15, 2021, 10:32:03 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 15, 2021, 10:11:40 AM

Quote from: WISHTOLAUGH on February 15, 2021, 10:09:04 AM

You do not even recognize that skill at math is a requisite for the STEM disciplines.

Reading comprehension fail.   He just said the opposite. 

I've no idea what the rest of your rambling is about.

Evident.

He stated he hoped they steered clear of the STEM disciplines. An attack on learning math is an attack on the STEM disciplines.

That was his point, you muppet.

That was not his point or he would have wrote just that.

Regardless, he admits his desire is for further destabilization of the entire education system.

OK, you're just trolling.  Take it to Angry Ranting.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00220270600977683?casa_token=-lvJn9Dul1UAAAAA%3A2vYg0s8gjbdIO2gg3IFxcqWVpf3jrURKGjLL19nYoUYR9ADvO0cIOdx8nYl7x-PbabIsl_1mK9lJEg&journalCode=tcus20

Mathematics educators often fail to see that their subject has social and ethical dimensions. If anything, mathematics is seen as a neutral tool that has a social dimension only because it can be used to solve social problems. This study critically examines this idea by arguing that, although school mathematics is indeed a technology, technology is never ethically neutral. Mathematics technology is not neutral because it leaves out aspects of reality as it represents and simulates that reality and because it alters conceptions of what constitutes the social world. Ethical non‐neutrality arises in mathematics education as quantitative problem‐solving becomes paradigmatic for all problem‐solving, pushing students toward a pattern of moral deliberation that parallels utilitarianism. This study discusses an activity intended to teach quantitative problem‐solving while at the same time reflecting on its potential effects and limits.

When postmodernism and math collide.

Crouton does not represent flat earth at all.

And you do?

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.  If you are trying to teach a concept, such as y=ax+b, it's better to have a definitively solution in order to make sure everyone understands the concept well.

I can get behind some of the stuff, such as deconstructing multiple choice questions to show common mistakes made which would lead to an incorrect answer shown, but some of the other stuff is just beyond ridiculous.  Allow kids to participate in math questions and answer by using dance, seems legit.

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 07:08:43 AM

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Yes?  It's math that is taught to kids in 6-8th grade, i.e. middle school kids.

Quote from: markjo on February 16, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 07:08:43 AM

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Yes?  It's math that is taught to kids in 6-8th grade, i.e. middle school kids.

Let me rephrase that.  What middle school level math does't have objectively correct answers?

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 08:39:05 AM

Quote from: markjo on February 16, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 07:08:43 AM

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Yes?  It's math that is taught to kids in 6-8th grade, i.e. middle school kids.

Let me rephrase that.  What middle school level math does't have objectively correct answers?

The article SCG linked to in the OP suggests having objectively correct answers is one aspect of how white supremacy culture is part of math education:

An ODE newsletter sent last week advertises a Feb. 21 “Pathway to Math Equity Micro-Course,” which is designed for middle school teachers to make use of a toolkit for “dismantling racism in mathematics.”

...

Part of the toolkit includes a list of ways “white supremacy culture” allegedly “infiltrates math classrooms.” Those include “the focus is on getting the ‘right’ answer,” students being “required to ‘show their work,'” and other alleged manifestations.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 08:39:05 AM

Quote from: markjo on February 16, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 07:08:43 AM

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Yes?  It's math that is taught to kids in 6-8th grade, i.e. middle school kids.

Let me rephrase that.  What middle school level math does't have objectively correct answers?

I misread your question, sorry about that.  But yes, as Boydster has shown, this workbook suggests not having problems with a single correct answer in favor of questions with multiple correct answers.  It also suggests showing your work is part of white supremacy in math and shouldn't be required.  So you can't have a right answer and you also can't show how you got to your answer.

Simpson's did it.

Quote from: markjo on February 16, 2021, 08:43:32 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 08:39:05 AM

Quote from: markjo on February 16, 2021, 07:52:41 AM

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 07:08:43 AM

I don't see how it is a good idea to teach middle school kids math in which there is no objectively correct answer, and instead focus on problems which have multiple solutions.

Is there even such a thing in middle school math?

Yes?  It's math that is taught to kids in 6-8th grade, i.e. middle school kids.

Let me rephrase that.  What middle school level math does't have objectively correct answers?

I misread your question, sorry about that.  But yes, as Boydster has shown, this workbook suggests not having problems with a single correct answer in favor of questions with multiple correct answers.  It also suggests showing your work is part of white supremacy in math and shouldn't be required.  So you can't have a right answer and you also can't show how you got to your answer.

Yeah, that's just weird. I don't get it. From page 55 in the course material:

"Students are required to “show their work.”

Math teachers ask students to show work so that teachers know what students are thinking, but that centers the teacher’s need to understand rather than student learning. It becomes a crutch for teachers seeking to understand what students are thinking and less of a tool for students in learning how to process. Thus, requiring students to show their work reinforces worship of the written word as well as paternalism.

pa·ter·nal·ism: the policy or practice on the part of people in positions of authority of restricting the freedom and responsibilities of those subordinate to them in the subordinates' supposed best interest.

How in the world is a kid showing how they arrived at your answer in any way shape or form subjecting them to paternalism? I'm baffled.

Simpson's did it.

I have never seen this before, this is perfect.

I misread your question, sorry about that.  But yes, as Boydster has shown, this workbook suggests not having problems with a single correct answer in favor of questions with multiple correct answers. 

I understand what they're asking for, but I'm just wondering what middle school level math questions with multiple correct answers are supposed to look like.

Quote from: DuckDodgers on February 16, 2021, 09:40:10 AM

I misread your question, sorry about that.  But yes, as Boydster has shown, this workbook suggests not having problems with a single correct answer in favor of questions with multiple correct answers. 

I understand what they're asking for, but I'm just wondering what middle school level math questions with multiple correct answers are supposed to look like.

Hence the ridiculous nature of this.

As for a concept appropriate for middle school that would involve having multiple correct answers while not being multiple choice, I think it's probably an OK time to go over absolute value and square roots. Both still have a very definite set of correct answers vs incorrect answers, while also introducing the idea that not all math questions have a single unique answer. That's not exactly in keeping with the intention of that workbook, but I think that workbook is not exactly full of good ideas anyway.

If they end up covering some pre-algebra in middle school, that's a good time to also demonstrate that there can be more than one way to solve a problem - they're learning how to move terms around between different sides of an equation, simplify, etc - it's a perfect time to show how they could start working on the same problem from different starting points and still arrive at the correct answer, and all roads that lead to the right answer are valid.

Those should be just one set of stepping stones on the way to deeper mathematical concepts and topics. But, sorry, there's something to be said for repetition-induced rote memorization along the way, because no one should have to be bogged down with having to consider things like the philosophy of what 8*7 means followed by deciding which of several different ways they can go about working out the solution when they can have the experience of looking at it and instantly recall it's 56. And they recall that because they've added 8 together 7 times in a row, and they've added 7 together 8 times in a row, and they've done hundreds of problems that required them to also remember 8*7 is 56. It's about as related to white power as it is related to what flavor Gatorade is best for filling open-toed high heels.

How in the world is a kid showing how they arrived at your answer in any way shape or form subjecting them to paternalism? I'm baffled.

If anything, being able to show how you arrived at your answer is a vital real world skill that should be developed early on.

I see this made it here... I've also seen it brought up in science forums and then people actually read it.

Everyone complains about the way stuff is taught in school but when someone tries to change some of it they complain about it again, even though a lot of it is exactly about the parts they hated...

Although some of the stuff in this is definitely unhelpful and wrong. But the reason it's always math etc with these outrage articles it is because they try to make it seem like what is being challenged is, like, the truth of math itself or whatever as opposed to the teaching of math which is a different thing.

Overall I think they tried to do... Something, but it's not very good because it puts the cart before the horse and ignores the overall structure of education, and whoever wrote it probably doesn't have enough familiarity with the teaching of math because some of the stuff here is very impractical.

How do you think math is taught through a white supremacist lens? Aren't they just numbers? I could possibly see an argument for history, historically most nations teach their history in a positive light.

I think we also have the obvious problem that Asian students far outperform European students in mathematics.

I don't understand the logic.

How do you think math is taught through a white supremacist lens? Aren't they just numbers? I could possibly see an argument for history, historically most nations teach their history in a positive light.

I think we also have the obvious problem that Asian students far outperform European students in mathematics.

I don't understand the logic.

No, that is the thing. First of all, it is not just numbers. That people think math is numbers is one of the failures of the way it is taught. Numbers is actually a rather insignificant part of math. And the teaching of math is different from the subject itself. I don't think white supremacy is the main driving force here, although people have to understand that when one of these people says "white supremacy", they mean the cultural values which are outcomes of systemic structures of discrimination, and things which help perpetuate these structures. They don't mean that teachers are being racist when they teach math, but that the form that math is taught has been influenced by that system, which in turn helps perpetuate it, if subtly. By the way I don't really agree with their approach, but I'm just saying that so that people know it is not what they maybe have in mind.

Math can be many different things and can be approached in many ways. The current way it is approached is pretty antiquated, as with most things in school. As it stands it is very discipline, rote learning, narrow and productivity focused, as opposed to geared towards creativity, critical thinking, breadth and connections to other subjects. Everyone notices this. Most people hate math and find it useless and boring. It's because it is literally geared towards preparing you for boring stuff and closely following instructions instead of figuring stuff out. Another thing that shows up in this document is how it is very individual oriented and discourages collaboration. That's partly because another way math is used as a yardstick to rank students individually. So really there's many issues with the teaching of math, and these things relate back to what is valued within the current socioeconomic system and each culture. When education is geared primarily towards what employers want, that's what you get.

It's also right that math isn't "neutral", no science is really neutral, because they are constructed by people who exist within societies and receive funding. So inevitably the approach of all sciences to certain issues and the issues which are valued above others always carry that watermark. It's less true for math than it is with most, but less true doesn't mean not true.

I'll let you guess what by FAR the largest single employer of mathematicians is in the US, and that should give you a picture of what math research is more valued in the US right now.

Numbers is actually a rather insignificant part of math.

It's going to take me quite some time to get my head around this. Could you elaborate?

And the teaching of math is different from the subject itself. I don't think white supremacy is the main driving force here, although people have to understand that when one of these people says "white supremacy", they mean the cultural values which are outcomes of systemic structures of discrimination, and things which help perpetuate these structures. They don't mean that teachers are being racist when they teach math, but that the form that math is taught has been influenced by that system, which in turn helps perpetuate it, if subtly. By the way I don't really agree with their approach, but I'm just saying that so that people know it is not what they maybe have in mind.

Alright but then why do Asian students far outperform European students in mathematics in America?

It's also right that math isn't "neutral", no science is really neutral, because they are constructed by people who exist within societies and receive funding. So inevitably the approach of all sciences to certain issues and the issues which are valued above others always carry that watermark. It's less true for math than it is with most, but less true doesn't mean not true.

I'll let you guess what by FAR the largest single employer of mathematicians is in the US, and that should give you a picture of what math research is more valued in the US right now.

I think that math unlike science is neutral, assuming physical laws held constant a civilisation on another planet would know geometry such as Pi and Pythagoras theory. Numbers are objective. There's no possible way they would have a different value for Pi than we do. I read an interesting sci-fi novel where an alien civilisation uses math to communicate with us and teach us their language which is admittedly a social construct.

The largest employer is the military, I would guess. War always engenders scientific progress, it's a sad part about the human condition.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 23, 2021, 01:46:36 AM

Numbers is actually a rather insignificant part of math.

It's going to take me quite some time to get my head around this. Could you elaborate?

"Numbers" is arithmetic. Beyond numerical analysis, higher mathematics doesn't really deal with that kind of stuff (calculations with numbers) at all. Even number theory has little to do with "numbers" the way you probably think of them, but instead relates numbers to extremely abstract concepts, you won't see many ones and twos floating around in math papers. Mathematics is the study of certain abstract axiom systems and abstract objects within these systems, and of logical reasoning itself. Mathematics is essentially generalisation of logical patterns that underpin reason and science.

Alright but then why do Asian students far outperform European students in mathematics in America?

It doesn't have to do with who performs better.

The largest employer is the military, I would guess.

Close. It is the NSA. Without the NSA and other similar organizations, there would be much less interest in cryptography and by extension number theory. So the focus of mathematics research is not neutral.

Another thing: there was a "split" in mathematics during the latter half of the 20th century between French and Russian mathematics, and many mathematicians still have very strong feelings about it, spewing vitriol against "French" or "Russian" mathematics.

Russian mathematics are thought to be very pragmatic, intuitive, and maintaining a close relation to natural sciences. The reason behind that was both cultural and a result of the science boom in the USSR which was intended to give a technological edge to the country, facilitate planning, and aid development. That incentivizes practical, concrete math that sticks close to natural sciences.

French mathematics came out of a country that was already developed, but also very appreciative of abstract reason. So French mathematics developed more as a very abstract art form which focused on strict formality, very abstract concepts, removing all particular features of the objects of study that the theory can be generalised as broadly as possible, and building massive structures based on rigorous but unintuitive axioms.

Now, if math was just all the same and completely neutral, there wouldn't be all this disagreement, would it? To be clear, it's not that they thought the theorems each school came up with were "wrong" exactly, but that their entire approach was wrong. Although then there is the constructive vs predicative vs classical mathematics debate, which has some sides that consider the mathematics the other side proposes as basically wrong, and it's a massive rabbit hole with no way to "objectively" tell who is right.

Can you give an example of "higher mathematics"  that doesn't involve numbers?

I can't find one.


Of course it's about who does better, the OP is about equitable maths. Which means making sure everyone is equally successful in math, regardless of ability.

You admitted yourself you think math or the teaching of math at least perpetuates discrimination. You would expect the group that isn't being discriminated against to perform the best.

And the teaching of math is different from the subject itself. I don't think white supremacy is the main driving force here, although people have to understand that when one of these people says "white supremacy", they mean the cultural values which are outcomes of systemic structures of discrimination, and things which help perpetuate these structures. They don't mean that teachers are being racist when they teach math, but that the form that math is taught has been influenced by that system, which in turn helps perpetuate it, if subtly

We can disagree about the method of the math but we can't disagree with whether it works or not. French and Russian engineers use the same formulas because they work. If the French had one value for Pi and the Russians had another, one would be right and the other would be wrong.