ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2040 on: May 16, 2021, 09:07:57 PM »
If resistance is the first law then I'm happy with it.
It is not simply resistance.
It is resistance to change in motion.
Do you understand that?
Are you happy with that?


Resistance is resistance no matter how you try to dress it up.
Resistance to change in motion is that change in motion.

It can never be anything that allows constant velocity.

Your argument is based on something that has no resistance to motion, hence why you call it constant velocity, which cannot happen so why is it even mentioned as a law?



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JackBlack

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2041 on: May 16, 2021, 10:26:44 PM »
Resistance is resistance no matter how you try to dress it up.
That does not change the fact that there are fundamentally different types of resistance.

Resistance to change in motion is that change in motion.
No, it is specifically resisting that.
Resistance to change in motion is not the change in motion that it is resisting, it is resisting that.

Your argument is based on something that has no resistance to motion, hence why you call it constant velocity, which cannot happen so why is it even mentioned as a law?
No, my argument is based upon the fact that there is no magical resistance to motion like you want to pretend.
Instead there is resistance to CHANGE in motion, and resistance to RELATIVE motion.

It is mentioned as a law as it is the ideal case, and extrapolation of available data to the ideal where there is no force acting at all.
It simply states that if you want to change the motion of an object, regardless of if you want it to speed up or slow down, a force needs to be applied.

An object is never still and an object in motion will never stay in motion unless a force is applied and a resistance is reactionary to it.
This applies that in a hypothetical case you can have an object in motion, without any force applied, and it will magically stop.
Reality shows otherwise.
It shows that a force is needed to stop it.
Again, do you understand this simple, trivial fact?

Your implication of constant is to omit all resistance to a force and then.
No, you still don't understand.
It is omitting the force, not the resistance to it.

Again, you fail basic mechanics. With that it isn't surprising you fail to have an answer for the simple questions which show your model is garbage:
Again, by what magic does your magical air magically maintain a magical pressure gradient?
By what magic does this magical air of yours magically make the pressure gradient proportional to weight of the fluid?
By what magic does this magical air magically stop the magical high pressure region from decompressing and pushing up the low pressure region above?
By what magic does the magical low pressure air above magically push down an object into a much greater force/resistance of the magical high pressure below?
By what magic does this magical air then magically decide to magically push up some objects instead of magically pushing them down?
By what magic does the air push things down and then resist that downwards motion so differently?

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2042 on: May 16, 2021, 10:48:56 PM »
Resistance is resistance no matter how you try to dress it up.
That does not change the fact that there are fundamentally different types of resistance.

Resistance is simply just that.....resistance.

There are no different types of resistance. Whether you push or squeeze or whatever, it's all a resistance.

It means there can never be a constant velocity.

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2043 on: May 16, 2021, 11:40:55 PM »
Quote
It will always slow down.
The reason it will slow down is due to air resistance (and other similar forces).
That is a force which resists relative motion.
If you take away that force, it doesn't slow down.

And you aren't taking away that force.

A force accellerates the mass.
Accellerate is a change in velocity over time.
If velocity no longer changes it is.... constant!
It is never constant. It can never be constant.
Your implication of constant is to omit all resistance to a force and then. You can never do that, so you can never have constant velocity.


Quote from: Themightykabool
Since we live in a world of air and water and other things there is bound to be some resistance force like drag or friction.
And this is all you need to know as to why you cannot have a constant velocity.

Your failure to realise you keep describing the inertia is AMAZING!


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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2044 on: May 16, 2021, 11:59:57 PM »
Quote
It will always slow down.
The reason it will slow down is due to air resistance (and other similar forces).
That is a force which resists relative motion.
If you take away that force, it doesn't slow down.

And you aren't taking away that force.

A force accellerates the mass.
Accellerate is a change in velocity over time.
If velocity no longer changes it is.... constant!
It is never constant. It can never be constant.
Your implication of constant is to omit all resistance to a force and then. You can never do that, so you can never have constant velocity.


Quote from: Themightykabool
Since we live in a world of air and water and other things there is bound to be some resistance force like drag or friction.
And this is all you need to know as to why you cannot have a constant velocity.

Your failure to realise you keep describing the inertia is AMAZING!
What does inertia mean, to you?

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JackBlack

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2045 on: May 17, 2021, 01:15:44 AM »
Resistance is resistance no matter how you try to dress it up.
That does not change the fact that there are fundamentally different types of resistance.
Resistance is simply just that.....resistance.
Ignoring reality will not change it.
Resistance is not just simply resistance.
There are many types.
You not liking that as it shows you are spouting pure garbage, will not change that fact.

Inertia is resistance to CHANGE IN MOTION.
Air resistance is resistance to RELATIVE MOTION.
These are fundamentally different types of resistance.

And again, you refuse to answer simple questions:
Again, by what magic does your magical air magically maintain a magical pressure gradient?
By what magic does this magical air of yours magically make the pressure gradient proportional to weight of the fluid?
By what magic does this magical air magically stop the magical high pressure region from decompressing and pushing up the low pressure region above?
By what magic does the magical low pressure air above magically push down an object into a much greater force/resistance of the magical high pressure below?
By what magic does this magical air then magically decide to magically push up some objects instead of magically pushing them down?
By what magic does the air push things down and then resist that downwards motion so differently?

There are no different types of resistance. Whether you push or squeeze or whatever, it's all a resistance.

It means there can never be a constant velocity.
[/quote]

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2046 on: May 17, 2021, 01:54:02 AM »

Ignoring reality will not change it.
Resistance is not just simply resistance.
There are many types.
You not liking that as it shows you are spouting pure garbage, will not change that fact.
Resistance is simply just that, no matter how you try and dress it up.


Quote from: JackBlack
Inertia is resistance to CHANGE IN MOTION.
What the hell does that actually mean?

This is what the meaning of the word, inertia is, according to the dictionary.
A tendency to do nothing or to remain unchanged.
A property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line, unless that state is changed by an external force.

Soooo, basically it does absolutely nothing, yet it can somehow allow an object remain in motion without any force applied to or against it, meaning the object stays in motion forever unless a resistance is used to change that.


So what we have here is a fictional story of a moving object in a straight line that uses no forces, at all and can simply move at constant velocity, unless somehow a resistance decides to alter that.




Quote from: JackBlack
Air resistance is resistance to RELATIVE MOTION.
It's simply resistance to any motion of any object using an action and an equal and opposite action of force/resistance/resistance/force. Whichever way people want to understand it.


Quote from: JackBlack
These are fundamentally different types of resistance.

There's no different type of resistance. Resistance is simply that.


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JackBlack

  • 22984
Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2047 on: May 17, 2021, 02:10:30 AM »
Ignoring reality will not change it.
Resistance is not just simply resistance.
There are many types.
You not liking that as it shows you are spouting pure garbage, will not change that fact.
Resistance is simply just that, no matter how you try and dress it up.
Ignoring my post wont magically make it no longer exist either.
The fact that they behave so fundamentally differently shows they are fundamentally different.
You wanting to pretend that everything is because of air has no bearing on reality.

Quote from: JackBlack
Inertia is resistance to CHANGE IN MOTION.
What the hell does that actually mean?
Quite simple, and it is basic English.
It resists changes in motion.
i.e. if you want to change the motion of the object, you need to apply a force to do so.

Soooo, basically it does absolutely nothing, yet it can somehow allow an object remain in motion without any force applied to or against it, meaning the object stays in motion forever unless a resistance is used to change that.
It isn't allowing it.
The point is that you need something to stop it moving, just like you need something to start it moving.
If you don't have something to stop it moving, there is no reason for it to stop, so it wont. Instead, it will not change.

Just why do you think an object should magically come to a stop if no force is applied?
Just what is there to stop it?

Quote from: JackBlack
Air resistance is resistance to RELATIVE MOTION.
It's simply resistance to any motion of any object
And again you ignore the key word, RELATIVE!
It doesn't resist motion, it resists RELATIVE motion.
That applies equally to the wind blowing an object, and still air bringing an object to "rest".
It is based upon friction/pressure between the air and the object due to the motion of the object relative to the fluid (air in this case).


Quote from: JackBlack
These are fundamentally different types of resistance.
There's no different type of resistance. Resistance is simply that.
Again, ignoring reality wont change it.
The fact that one resists change in motion while the other resists relative motion shows that they are fundamentally different.

That not fitting into your fantasy where everything is caused by air simply means your fantasy is wrong.

Again, by what magic does your magical air magically maintain a magical pressure gradient?
By what magic does this magical air of yours magically make the pressure gradient proportional to weight of the fluid?
By what magic does this magical air magically stop the magical high pressure region from decompressing and pushing up the low pressure region above?
By what magic does the magical low pressure air above magically push down an object into a much greater force/resistance of the magical high pressure below?
By what magic does this magical air then magically decide to magically push up some objects instead of magically pushing them down?
By what magic does the air push things down and then resist that downwards motion so differently?

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2048 on: May 17, 2021, 02:55:36 AM »
And you fail yet again.
The third law is substantiated by plenty of evidence showing forces come in pairs (and even logic).
In certain circumstances, yes. If you place a cup on a table, then the cup exerts a downwards force upon the table, which is met with a reactive force from the table, and they balance. If, however, you put a dozen people in a rowboat and have them all dance around like madmen, does the boat stay still because all forces naturally pair, or do non-paired forces in fact exist and topple the boat? Forces do not automatically pair up or become balanced in the way that you require to keep an object at rest. This requires specific situations - in the case of the cup on the table, the structural integrity of the table was already resisting the downwards force, and proved capable of resisting an added weight also.
In the case of an object, the movement of each molecule is essentially random. If, at one instant in time, one molecule's vibration imparts velocity to the left, then the molecule it interacts with directly is not necessarily going to be one with strictly equal and opposite motion - in fact the odds of it doing so are non-existent. If it is going up, or left as well, what acts to balance the force of the original molecule? What is it that ensures a second particle will be countering the motion of the first?

You are not making an argument. You are claiming it works, and not addressing the problem. When I say this, do me the courtesy of acknowledge that I am saying it for a reason, not just to waste time. You are not answering the objection I have posed, nor are you even trying. You are at best appealing to magic, dressing up 'It just does' in fancy words, with no actual explanation.

If you are unwilling or unable to address the question, stop pretending otherwise and let someone more qualified respond.

I have asked why it vibrates instead of just continues moving.
If you instead want to claim it doesn't actually vibrate and change your argument, or start appealing to quantum mechanics, go ahead. But that means you were wrong with this argument.
I do not claim anything vibrates. Your own physics claim that all molecules vibrate when they are not at absolute zero. Why is everyone bringing quantum mechanics into a discussion that I have said clearly several times now is on heat? I am using this to demonstrate a flaw with your position.
If you now do want to turn around a claim than molecules in fact are stationary when they possess heat, then I am content with that and we are done.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2049 on: May 17, 2021, 03:06:01 AM »

Resistance is simply just that, no matter how you try and dress it up.

The fact that they behave so fundamentally differently shows they are fundamentally different.
You wanting to pretend that everything is because of air has no bearing on reality.
It has every bearing on reality.
What doesn't have any bearing on reality, is your object in motion with zero force/resistance.


Quote from: JackBlack

Quote from: JackBlack
Inertia is resistance to CHANGE IN MOTION.
What the hell does that actually mean?
Quite simple, and it is basic English.
It resists changes in motion.
i.e. if you want to change the motion of the object, you need to apply a force to do so.
A force is always applied to the object and it's always changing the motion of that object.
That's reality.

What isn't reality is the object just moving at constant velocity forever with zero forces applied or to resist.


Quote from: JackBlack

Soooo, basically it does absolutely nothing, yet it can somehow allow an object remain in motion without any force applied to or against it, meaning the object stays in motion forever unless a resistance is used to change that.
It isn't allowing it.
The point is that you need something to stop it moving, just like you need something to start it moving.
That something is always there. There is never a time when there isn't a force/resistance.



Quote from: JackBlack
If you don't have something to stop it moving, there is no reason for it to stop, so it wont. Instead, it will not change.
But you do have something to stop it, it's the same thing that started it in motion.
The only way something will not stop is if a force is consistently applied against the force that is consistently resisting that applied force.

You cannot start something moving unless you have a force and if you have that force then there is resistance.

If you had no force or resistance then nothing would move, meaning nothing would exist.

Quote from: JackBlack

Just why do you think an object should magically come to a stop if no force is applied?
Just what is there to stop it?
Why do you think an object can actually move if there's no force applied?


Quote from: JackBlack

Quote from: JackBlack
Air resistance is resistance to RELATIVE MOTION.
It's simply resistance to any motion of any object
And again you ignore the key word, RELATIVE!
It doesn't resist motion, it resists RELATIVE motion.
That applies equally to the wind blowing an object, and still air bringing an object to "rest".
It is based upon friction/pressure between the air and the object due to the motion of the object relative to the fluid (air in this case).
What's all this relative about?

Are you talking about being in a train and watching the scenery go by?
If so, how does this show anything about constant velocity?


Quote from: JackBlack

Quote from: JackBlack
These are fundamentally different types of resistance.
There's no different type of resistance. Resistance is simply that.
Again, ignoring reality wont change it.
The fact that one resists change in motion while the other resists relative motion shows that they are fundamentally different.
Explain resisting motion and resisting relative motion, because it seems you're just plucking nonsense out of the air (pun intended).


Quote from: JackBlack

That not fitting into your fantasy where everything is caused by air simply means your fantasy is wrong.
The one that's dealing in fantasy, is you.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 03:12:23 AM by sceptimatic »

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JackBlack

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2050 on: May 17, 2021, 03:32:27 AM »

Resistance is simply just that, no matter how you try and dress it up.
The fact that they behave so fundamentally differently shows they are fundamentally different.
You wanting to pretend that everything is because of air has no bearing on reality.
It has every bearing on reality.
No, it doesn't.
Reality doesn't give a damn that you want everything to be explained by air and want to pretend that all resistance is the same and caused by air.
It is not going to change to suit what you want.

A force is always applied to the object
And that is just you trying to avoid the issue.

But you do have something to stop it, it's the same thing that started it in motion.
Only if it was a slight gust.
If I throw a ball, it isn't my hand stopping the ball. Instead it is something quite different.

Why do you think an object can actually move if there's no force applied?
Why do you continue to avoid the simple question.
The object is already in motion. A force was applied to make it move. There is no reason for it to just magically stop without cause.
I think objects can continue to move without a force being applied due to observation of moving objects, including those provided with a significant force when they are initially accelerated, and then only slowly slowing down due to air resistance, especially with how different objects and fluids results in different rates of deceleration.
That applies that a force needs to be applied to stop it moving.

Again, if something is moving, why should it just magically stop without cause?

What's all this relative about?
Again, quite basic English.
Fluids do not resist motion. The resist RELATIVE motion.
That is motion relative to the fluid.
The simplest example is calm air, with an object moving through that air at say 1 m/s. While you may think of this as just motion, it is the motion relative to the air that is important.
In this case, as the air is at rest and the object is moving at 1 m/s, it is moving at 1 m/s relative to the air. This will result in the air resisting the relative motion of the object and trying to bring it to rest.
But this is not the only way.

If you have an object at rest, and a fluid passes over it at 1 m/s, the relative motion is 1 m/s (note, for simplicity I'm not bothering with sign/direction).
The fluid will resist that relative motion and cause the object to accelerate from rest, until it moves at 1 m/2 with the air.

Another example is the air inside a car driving down a highway, and that can actually be quite a good example due to the ability to put something outside the car.
The air inside the car (assuming the windows are closed) is moving with the car. So an object sitting in the car is not moving relative to the air inside the car, so the air inside the car isn't resisting its motion.
But the air outside the car is not moving with the car. Instead there is a quite significant relative speed, and thus if you put an object outside the car, the air resists that relative speed.
So even though the motion of the object is the same, the motion of the air is dramatically different which results in dramatically different effects.

This quite clearly shows it is not resisting motion, and instead is resisting relative motion.
This also occurs when you throw an object into a river and it moves with the water.


If so, how does this show anything about constant velocity?
It is showing that all the different types of resistance are not simply just resistance, but instead there are several different types.

Explain resisting motion and resisting relative motion, because it seems you're just plucking nonsense out of the air (pun intended).
That would be you plucking nonsense out of thin air. But that isn't surprising as that is all you have, and you certainly do what everything to be from the air.

Resisting motion requires an absolute reference frame which all motion can be measured in, where this resistance magically tries to make everything stop in this reference frame. It is pure nonsense with no connection at all to reality.

Resisting relative motion does not require an absolute reference frame. Instead it is based upon friction and the creation of pressure gradients when you attempt to move an object, relative to another. Now it isn't magically trying to achieve a velocity of 0 in some magical reference frame. Instead it just tries to remove relative motion, i.e. to make the object and fluid (or 2 objects) move together.

The one that's dealing in fantasy, is you.
The only fantasy I am dealing with is the fantasy you and other FEers spout so often, which I refute so often.

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JackBlack

  • 22984
Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2051 on: May 17, 2021, 03:52:44 AM »
You are not making an argument. You are claiming it works, and not addressing the problem. When I say this, do me the courtesy of acknowledge that I am saying it for a reason, not just to waste time. You are not answering the objection I have posed, nor are you even trying. You are at best appealing to magic, dressing up 'It just does' in fancy words, with no actual explanation.

If you are unwilling or unable to address the question, stop pretending otherwise and let someone more qualified respond.
There you go projecting yet again.
You aren't showing there is a problem. You are just claiming there is and not addressing the refutations of it.
I will not do you that curtesy until you demonstrate that you are not wasting time as you appear to be doing so. Your reason appears to be just to waste time and act all high and mighty.

I have directly addressed the issue and you continue to pretend I have not.
You want to take what you alleged is the problem, and then completely strawman it, replacing the vibration with completely random motion and no connection at all between the various parts of the object, which would mean it would no longer be vibration.
Try coming up with a coherent argument which is actually based upon the problem you claim exists.

If you are unwilling or unable to demonstrate this problem, stop pretending otherwise and let someone more qualified respond.

If, however, you put a dozen people in a rowboat and have them all dance around like madmen, does the boat stay still because all forces naturally pair, or do non-paired forces in fact exist and topple the boat?
There you go either completely misunderstanding or intentionally misrepresenting it again.
Yes, all the forces pair, as they must.

What you are choosing to ignore are the external forces.
When they jump, they push the boat into the water, which then includes an external interaction with the water.
You also ignore gravity, which acts on the people and the boat, in quite a significant way.

Even your comment about toppling the boat shows you either don't understand the problem you are claiming to talk about or are intentionally misrepresenting it.
The boat itself toppling, with the people as well, is not bulk motion of the object. Instead it is just the components of the object moving relative to each other.

In the case of an object, the movement of each molecule is essentially random. If, at one instant in time, one molecule's vibration imparts velocity to the left, then the molecule it interacts with directly is not necessarily going to be one with strictly equal and opposite motion - in fact the odds of it doing so are non-existent. If it is going up, or left as well, what acts to balance the force of the original molecule? What is it that ensures a second particle will be countering the motion of the first?
Again, this shows a complete lack of understanding of the model you claim there is a problem with.

Try starting out simple, with 2 atoms, such as in a simple diatomic molecule like oxygen, then go larger and larger.
With this simple setup start with these 2 atoms travelling at some velocity, and note what the overall velocity of the bulk object is.
Now, without any external force, what is there to change the velocity? Well the only thing that can is some interaction between these 2 particles.
This naturally creates a pair and results in the 2 particles velocities changing in a quite predictable way such that momentum is conserved and the centre of mass remains moving at the same constant velocity.
Throw in an extra particle, and you still have the same issue. For any change you need an interaction between 2 particles which results in no net change in motion.

Throw in loads and you end up with a quite chaotic system, which APPEARS essentially random.

The molecule it interacts with does not need equal and opposite motion. Instead, all it needs is that the forces on each molecule during this interaction are equal and opposite resulting in no net change in motion. And the odds of that are unity.

It isn't that any 2 particles are countering the motion of each other. It is that any change must be countered by another change to result in no net change.

I do not claim anything vibrates. Your own physics claim that all molecules vibrate when they are not at absolute zero.
It isn't my physics. It is simply physics.
And if you want to claim there is a problem with that, try to understand why it is vibrating, rather than just pretending it is completely random motion.
Completely random motion is quite different to vibration.

Why is everyone bringing quantum mechanics
Because you have claimed that this vibration is an incorrect representation which naturally leads to the limitations of classical mechanics at the quantum level and thus quantum mechanics. This is also what allows temporary violations of the laws of motion.
And that is really your only way out on this issue.

I am using this to demonstrate a flaw with your position.
You mean to assert a flaw. You are yet to demonstrate any actual flaw, and instead just continually just misrepresent it.


If you now do want to turn around a claim than molecules in fact are stationary when they possess heat, then I am content with that and we are done.
[/quote]

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2052 on: May 17, 2021, 05:29:27 AM »
You want to take what you alleged is the problem, and then completely strawman it, replacing the vibration with completely random motion and no connection at all between the various parts of the object, which would mean it would no longer be vibration.
Okay. Then do not assert this. Heat is vibration - you claim that this vibration instead occurs in specific patterns for the motion to cancel itself out. How is this the case? 'This says it should be!' does not answer the question - laws hold for a reason, I am asking for that reason. You say vibration is exempt, that it is different - why?


Try starting out simple, with 2 atoms, such as in a simple diatomic molecule like oxygen, then go larger and larger.
With this simple setup start with these 2 atoms travelling at some velocity, and note what the overall velocity of the bulk object is.
Now, without any external force, what is there to change the velocity? Well the only thing that can is some interaction between these 2 particles.
This is not the case. We are talking about the heat present in this object: that energy is an additional factor that must be accounted for. That energy makes each particle move independently, it does not make just one particle move that the other might resist, it imparts motion onto both. Why would this motion serve as a perfect mirror?

You say "It is that any change must be countered by another change to result in no net change." This is the problem. You describe what you need to be the case - you do not describe why it is the case.


Because you have claimed that this vibration is an incorrect representation which naturally leads to the limitations of classical mechanics at the quantum level and thus quantum mechanics. This is also what allows temporary violations of the laws of motion.
Only if you limit yourself to the flawed framework that has been propagated.

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2053 on: May 17, 2021, 06:19:15 AM »
And you fail yet again.
The third law is substantiated by plenty of evidence showing forces come in pairs (and even logic).
In certain circumstances, yes. If you place a cup on a table, then the cup exerts a downwards force upon the table, which is met with a reactive force from the table, and they balance. If, however, you put a dozen people in a rowboat and have them all dance around like madmen, does the boat stay still because all forces naturally pair, or do non-paired forces in fact exist and topple the boat? Forces do not automatically pair up or become balanced in the way that you require to keep an object at rest. This requires specific situations - in the case of the cup on the table, the structural integrity of the table was already resisting the downwards force, and proved capable of resisting an added weight also.
In the case of an object, the movement of each molecule is essentially random. If, at one instant in time, one molecule's vibration imparts velocity to the left, then the molecule it interacts with directly is not necessarily going to be one with strictly equal and opposite motion - in fact the odds of it doing so are non-existent. If it is going up, or left as well, what acts to balance the force of the original molecule? What is it that ensures a second particle will be countering the motion of the first?

You are not making an argument. You are claiming it works, and not addressing the problem. When I say this, do me the courtesy of acknowledge that I am saying it for a reason, not just to waste time. You are not answering the objection I have posed, nor are you even trying. You are at best appealing to magic, dressing up 'It just does' in fancy words, with no actual explanation.

If you are unwilling or unable to address the question, stop pretending otherwise and let someone more qualified respond.

I have asked why it vibrates instead of just continues moving.
If you instead want to claim it doesn't actually vibrate and change your argument, or start appealing to quantum mechanics, go ahead. But that means you were wrong with this argument.
I do not claim anything vibrates. Your own physics claim that all molecules vibrate when they are not at absolute zero. Why is everyone bringing quantum mechanics into a discussion that I have said clearly several times now is on heat? I am using this to demonstrate a flaw with your position.
If you now do want to turn around a claim than molecules in fact are stationary when they possess heat, then I am content with that and we are done.


When the dancing men are constrainted to each other the dont fall out...





These are not purely free floating dancing guys.
So your analogy is on a wrong premise to start.







Its more so that theyre linked like ants holding onto each other through other typss of bonds and connections like organs.
Any free floaters are bound by the constraints within... like say blood or long chaine dmolecules..
But now we re talking about much larger objects.

Back to atoms at the basic.
Theyre vibrating, not traveling.
And possibly vibrating is not in the sense that theyre swinging back and forth.
This is a quantum thing where excited elcrrons and other crazy stuff is happening.
The only example i could say is would you say a an electron dropping energy orbit state and releasing a photon is motion?
The electron is moving.
It should follow newtonian physics?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 06:37:12 AM by Themightykabool »

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2054 on: May 17, 2021, 06:28:35 AM »
[Why is everyone bringing quantum mechanics into a discussion that I have said clearly several times now is on heat? I am using this to demonstrate a flaw with your position.
If you now do want to turn around a claim than molecules in fact are stationary when they possess heat, then I am content with that and we are done.


You symaying molrcules and atoms vibrating is causing collisions and is rhat this can be applied to newtonian physics is a stretch to appealing to quantum mechanics.

And id why we keep saying we re not talking about a travelling atom, we re talking about a buzzing one and its not traveling.

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markjo

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2055 on: May 17, 2021, 07:11:59 AM »
Resistance and force always balance out after the fact, even if it's just super nanoseconds or whatever lowest number you can think of.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Yes, that's Newton's third law.  By the way, equal and opposite add up to zero.

You aren't talking about balancing anything out when you go with constant velocity.
Actually, I am.  If all forces (including resistance) are balanced, then the velocity will be constant.

You are assuming an object will travel forever if a force is applied and then magically no resistant force is against it from that point in.
Inertia is the beginning of the math problem, not the end.  That's why Newton added two more laws of motion.  You start with no forces or resistance and then add the relevant forces and resistances to get your final answer.

You know that's fiction.
Only because you're trying to over think it.  You have to learn how to break things down and analyze them one part at a time so as to better understand the whole.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 07:13:32 AM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2056 on: May 17, 2021, 09:07:20 AM »

Fluids do not resist motion. The resist RELATIVE motion.
Give me a nice explanation as to what you're talking about.


Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2057 on: May 17, 2021, 09:14:31 AM »
Then there is an object, that has been observed since the recording of time; the Moon, please explain its motion.
What force is the cause of this motion?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 07:23:38 PM by MouseWalker »
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2058 on: May 17, 2021, 09:18:53 AM »
Resistance and force always balance out after the fact, even if it's just super nanoseconds or whatever lowest number you can think of.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Yes, that's Newton's third law.  By the way, equal and opposite add up to zero.
Equal and opposite?
The third law is  action and equal and opposite reaction to that action. Note how it's to that action. They are never equal, they are always unbalanced otherwise nothing would work.




Quote from: markjo
You aren't talking about balancing anything out when you go with constant velocity.
Actually, I am.  If all forces (including resistance) are balanced, then the velocity will be constant.
No it won't and never can be.

You can never get constant velocity at any time, no matter what.



Quote from: markjo
You are assuming an object will travel forever if a force is applied and then magically no resistant force is against it from that point in.
Inertia is the beginning of the math problem, not the end.
Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.


Quote from: markjo
  That's why Newton added two more laws of motion.  You start with no forces or resistance and then add the relevant forces and resistances to get your final answer.
You can never start with no forces or resistance.
All you can do is go with force and resistance from the off.


Quote from: markjo
You know that's fiction.
Only because you're trying to over think it.
Absolutely not. There's no verthinking required. It's simply not a thing to have zero force and zero resistance and have a constant velocity. It just can't happen. It's not overthinking.


Quote from: markjo
You have to learn how to break things down and analyze them one part at a time so as to better understand the whole.
There's no breaking down zero force and zero resistance.

It's fantasy/fiction.

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2059 on: May 17, 2021, 09:29:15 AM »

Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.




funny you keep describing it when you describe motion.
why you keep calling it nothing if you keep accruately describing an object in motion is impeded by resistive forces.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2060 on: May 17, 2021, 10:18:09 AM »

Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.




funny you keep describing it when you describe motion.
why you keep calling it nothing if you keep accruately describing an object in motion is impeded by resistive forces.
Because your object in motion is not impeded by resistance, according to you people.... and this is why you call it constant velocity.
It's fantasy.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2061 on: May 17, 2021, 10:19:39 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic link=topic=87840.msg2317757#msg2317757
[/quote
Equal and opposite?
The third law is  action and equal and opposite reaction to that action. Note how it's to that action. They are never equal, they are always unbalanced otherwise nothing would work.
So the equal action and opposite reaction aren't equal in magnitude?
Why do you believe this third law if the other two laws are incorrect?
Because the third law is correct.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, meaning you only get out of something what you put into it, in that order.


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markjo

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2062 on: May 17, 2021, 10:37:13 AM »
Equal and opposite?
The third law is  action and equal and opposite reaction to that action. Note how it's to that action. They are never equal, they are always unbalanced otherwise nothing would work.
What can't forces ever be balanced?  Does the term "equilibrium" mean anything to you?


You can never get constant velocity at any time, no matter what.
Have you ever heard of cruise control?


Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.
Inertia is not a thing.  It's a property of matter in the same way that color is a property of matter.


Quote from: markjo
  That's why Newton added two more laws of motion.  You start with no forces or resistance and then add the relevant forces and resistances to get your final answer.
You can never start with no forces or resistance.
All you can do is go with force and resistance from the off.
How do you know which force is which and how those forces affect the object?


Absolutely not. There's no verthinking required. It's simply not a thing to have zero force and zero resistance and have a constant velocity. It just can't happen. It's not overthinking.
Obviously you can over think it because here we are for the umpteenth time discussing the exact same basic concepts.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2063 on: May 17, 2021, 10:41:14 AM »

Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.




funny you keep describing it when you describe motion.
why you keep calling it nothing if you keep accruately describing an object in motion is impeded by resistive forces.
Because your object in motion is not impeded by resistance, according to you people.... and this is why you call it constant velocity.
It's fantasy.

my goodness you're stupid.

"IF"
the word IF exists in your vocabulary?
if there are no forces acting on an object, it will carry on however it was, be it moving or not moving.

so when a RESISTNACE is introduced, it will change the motion of the object.

which you keep describing.
so keep on describing inertia because everyone else seems to understand.
maybe at somepoint you'll get it.

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Mikey T.

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2064 on: May 17, 2021, 11:46:01 AM »
Brilliant, just brilliant.  Says IF in the bold stuff, ignores IF when it contradicts the obviously stupid conclusion, uses the actual definition which says the opposite of the incorrect point made, thinking it supports the incorrect point. 
Beautiful execution, still the same dance moves but with more flair. 

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JackBlack

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2065 on: May 17, 2021, 02:32:48 PM »
Okay. Then do not assert this.
You were the one who asserted it, not me.

Heat is vibration - you claim that this vibration instead occurs in specific patterns for the motion to cancel itself out. How is this the case?
I have already explained. Stop ignoring it.
If you are just focusing on the internal forces, then any change in one particle must involve an interaction with another particle to cause that change.

I am asking for that reason.
You clearly aren't. If you were you would actually focus on that reason rather than claiming to be asking for a reason.

You say vibration is exempt, that it is different - why?
WHERE?
You sure do love pretending people say things that they don't.

Try starting out simple, with 2 atoms, such as in a simple diatomic molecule like oxygen, then go larger and larger.
With this simple setup start with these 2 atoms travelling at some velocity, and note what the overall velocity of the bulk object is.
Now, without any external force, what is there to change the velocity? Well the only thing that can is some interaction between these 2 particles.
This is not the case. We are talking about the heat present in this object: that energy is an additional factor that must be accounted for.
No, that IS the case.
This heat you continually appeal to is that motion/vibration, etc.
It is not some extra magical energy which continually magically acts to magically make all the particles magically move in random directions.

Again, you don't seem to have any idea at all what you are talking about.

If you want to talk about heat entering the object, then that is an external interaction, not an internal one, and thus is NOT what you are claiming is the problem.
If you want to talk about the object in isolation once it already has that heat transferred into it, then that motion is the very thing you need to discuss.

You say "It is that any change must be countered by another change to result in no net change." This is the problem.
No, the problem is you ignoring that explanation as to why it is the case.
Again, go and read what I have said, and don't just dismiss it as not being the case, because you don't like it.

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JackBlack

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2066 on: May 17, 2021, 02:37:34 PM »

Fluids do not resist motion. The resist RELATIVE motion.
Give me a nice explanation as to what you're talking about.
I did, in that very post, and you chose to ignore it.
Here it is again:
Again, quite basic English.
Fluids do not resist motion. The resist RELATIVE motion.
That is motion relative to the fluid.
The simplest example is calm air, with an object moving through that air at say 1 m/s. While you may think of this as just motion, it is the motion relative to the air that is important.
In this case, as the air is at rest and the object is moving at 1 m/s, it is moving at 1 m/s relative to the air. This will result in the air resisting the relative motion of the object and trying to bring it to rest.
But this is not the only way.

If you have an object at rest, and a fluid passes over it at 1 m/s, the relative motion is 1 m/s (note, for simplicity I'm not bothering with sign/direction).
The fluid will resist that relative motion and cause the object to accelerate from rest, until it moves at 1 m/2 with the air.

Another example is the air inside a car driving down a highway, and that can actually be quite a good example due to the ability to put something outside the car.
The air inside the car (assuming the windows are closed) is moving with the car. So an object sitting in the car is not moving relative to the air inside the car, so the air inside the car isn't resisting its motion.
But the air outside the car is not moving with the car. Instead there is a quite significant relative speed, and thus if you put an object outside the car, the air resists that relative speed.
So even though the motion of the object is the same, the motion of the air is dramatically different which results in dramatically different effects.

This quite clearly shows it is not resisting motion, and instead is resisting relative motion.
This also occurs when you throw an object into a river and it moves with the water.

And that is fundamentally different to inertia, which is resisting a CHANGE in motion.
They are not simply just resistance.
They are fundamentally different and show your model where everything is magically caused by the air is pure BS.

Stop playing dumb, stop pretending these simple things haven't been explained and try answer the trivial problems that show your model is pure BS:
Again, by what magic does your magical air magically maintain a magical pressure gradient?
By what magic does this magical air of yours magically make the pressure gradient proportional to weight of the fluid?
By what magic does this magical air magically stop the magical high pressure region from decompressing and pushing up the low pressure region above?
By what magic does the magical low pressure air above magically push down an object into a much greater force/resistance of the magical high pressure below?
By what magic does this magical air then magically decide to magically push up some objects instead of magically pushing them down?
By what magic does the air push things down and then resist that downwards motion so differently?

Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2067 on: May 17, 2021, 07:33:56 PM »
I will repeat the question to Sceptimatic

Then there is an object, that has been observed since the recording of time; the Moon, please explain its motion.
What is the cause, of that motion?
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

*

sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2068 on: May 17, 2021, 09:10:49 PM »
Equal and opposite?
The third law is  action and equal and opposite reaction to that action. Note how it's to that action. They are never equal, they are always unbalanced otherwise nothing would work.
What can't forces ever be balanced?  Does the term "equilibrium" mean anything to you?
It depends on what you deem as being, balanced.
You see, we can place two 1kg masses on a scale and balance them to our knowledge of how we balance things.

If we don't look past the physical view of that we can say they are balanced.
Molecular wise they actually wouldn't be....but, this isn't an argument for that, it's an argument against constant velocity being a fictional state where an object can stay in motion forever unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
It's always going to happen and never would there be a case for an object o ever kep motion without any external/unbalanced force.

That's basic logic and no law can change that to gain any physical end product.
Only fiction/fantasy can keep that as something from a nothing.


Quote from: markjo
You can never get constant velocity at any time, no matter what.
Have you ever heard of cruise control?
Yes I have and the same thing applies to what I've been saying.
It is not constant velocity or anything like it.
To use cruise control is no different to manually keeping the same consistent mph but to do so you must always be changing force to the vehicle on the road to keep a steady mph.



Quote from: markjo
Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.
Inertia is not a thing.  It's a property of matter in the same way that color is a property of matter.
Inertia is nothing unless it is used as resistance, not the lack of it.


Quote from: markjo
Quote from: markjo
  That's why Newton added two more laws of motion.  You start with no forces or resistance and then add the relevant forces and resistances to get your final answer.
You can never start with no forces or resistance.
All you can do is go with force and resistance from the off.
How do you know which force is which and how those forces affect the object?
A force is a force no matter how it's dressed up.
You can name any force and it all comes down to the same thing. To resist or set in a motion.
With what you people are arguing, it's no forces, at all.
You know that can't be realistic but it certainly can be fantasy. It's just a case of admitting it to be what it really is.


Quote from: markjo
Absolutely not. There's no verthinking required. It's simply not a thing to have zero force and zero resistance and have a constant velocity. It just can't happen. It's not overthinking.
Obviously you can over think it because here we are for the umpteenth time discussing the exact same basic concepts.
I'm not overthinking it I'm pretty rigid on the basics of it, like I keep saying.
Telling me it's not fictional/fantasy will gain the same response unless you can prove it not to be...which you know you can't.

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sceptimatic

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Re: ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist
« Reply #2069 on: May 17, 2021, 09:18:11 PM »

Inertia is nothing. It describes nothing, so the word is used for fantasy effect.




funny you keep describing it when you describe motion.
why you keep calling it nothing if you keep accruately describing an object in motion is impeded by resistive forces.
Because your object in motion is not impeded by resistance, according to you people.... and this is why you call it constant velocity.
It's fantasy.

my goodness you're stupid.

"IF"
the word IF exists in your vocabulary?
if there are no forces acting on an object, it will carry on however it was, be it moving or not moving.

so when a RESISTNACE is introduced, it will change the motion of the object.

which you keep describing.
so keep on describing inertia because everyone else seems to understand.
maybe at somepoint you'll get it.
What are you understanding?

If a horse was not a horse it would not be a horse.
If a horse pushed a cart without a horse, the cart would be in motion forever if the horse was pushing the cart but without the horse.
If my aunt was my uncle then my uncle wouldn't be my aunt.

There's some other nonsense for you.