ANOTHER EXPERIMENT: Gravity Doesn't Exist

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

 

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

The vortex is acted upon by the atmosphere. It always attempts to equalise the pressure.

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 09:58:06 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

The vortex is acted upon by the atmosphere. It always attempts to equalise the pressure.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

 

I never knew you were an expert in astronomy.  Why didn't you tell me?  You seem to have decided on a lot of topics about what there is and isn't evidence for. Maybe I should ask you some more questions on the subject as you are such an authority.

Perhaps for example you could explain why stars disappear behind the Moon on the unlit side of it (eastern side during waxing) and then reappear on the western limb a while later.  This would seem to evidence that something is blocking the light from the star behind from reaching the eye of the observer.  Such as solid rock for example.  Unless you have any alternative explanations for how the light of a hologram can block light from a different source?

As for the wobble of the Earths axis.  This is observable in tiny amounts so that the authors of star charts have to state the epoch for which the star positions are plotted.  You know what observable means yes?  We can see it.  We can measure it.  Is that simple and clear enough for you to understand or shall I just use words of one syllable for you?

Mock astronomy as much as you like but ignorance of the facts won't make them go away. 

Quote from: JackBlack on March 01, 2021, 03:07:47 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 03:03:05 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on February 28, 2021, 12:31:29 PM

Explain it instead of dodging.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is going to happen.

Try it and then explain what happens.
I can clearly see you haven't tried it.

You mean you are clearly using whatever excuse you can to avoid the issue.
The 2 nozzles are drawn towards each other (just like the dust is) and basically latch onto each other. Then the vacuum cleaner starts making a different noise as it is no longer sucking the air through.

There is no sucking of air through, so try again.
And clearly you have not performed this two cleaner experiment.

Semantics.
You know what is meant by "sucking the air through".
Now stop deflecting.
If you think I haven't done the experiment and that you would get a different result, provide it here.
Because even if someone hasn't done the experiment, simple logic shows you are wrong.
There is no way for those 2 sides to repel one another.
The "vortex of air" would cause them to move towards one another.

Now stop with the pathetic deflection and either provide an explanation for what causes 2 magnets in this orientation to repel, or admit your model/"explanation" is pure BS which does not explain how magnets work.

I honestly don't think anything can ever be explained to you that goes against your grain. Seriously.

And as already established, what you "think" is quite often wrong.
The problem is if your explanation actually makes sense and matches reality.
And that includes the logical consequences of your explanation that you want to hide from because it shows your explanation is wrong.
I rejected your explanation of magnets because of a massive problem with it. A problem you continually wish to ignore and try whatever you can to deflect from it.

Perhaps if you tried to explain things in a manner which is consistent with reality, I wouldn't repeatedly show the flaws with those explanations which show it doesn't explain the phenomenon.

Another simple examples, where the problem is entirely you, is your claim that everything is magically pushing and that there is no pull, where to try to explain how a chain works, you appeal to the few locations where a pushing force exists, and ignore the locations where a pulling force exists, doing whatever you can to avoid them. Even when it gets stripped down to the basics to clearly show where the pulling force is.

The issue is not me not accepting an explanation that goes against "my grain". It is you ignoring everything that shows your "explanation" is wrong and thus doesn't actually explain it.

So rather than insults and deflection, do you have an explanation?

Do you accept that the winding will create a sort of vortex. a spiral?

Of charges (electrons) flowing through it, yes. I would say a helix.
Note that these charges follow the coils. They don't magically leave it and start hitting/pushing the material attracted by the magnet.

Of air, NO!
There is no vortex of air formed at all.
The most you get is the coil heating up causing the air to start convection currents, where the hot air rises.

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

If the water is just sitting in the sink, we don't feel it.
When it is draining, we do.

What you are suggesting now, is akin to suggesting we shouldn't feel the wind.

I'll let you think on it.

Because you obviously wont do any thinking on it. Not when it shows you are wrong.

If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

It certainly does move.
The only way for it to not move is to not have the water move.
Once you start getting bulk motion of the water you end up with motion of the cork/water.
Again, what you are claiming would require no vortex of air outside the magnet and thus no ability for it to move anything outside of itself.

I don't pass them off as factual unless I can actually physically prove them to be so.

Stop lying.
You repeatedly pass your claims off as factual when you have absolutely no justification for them at all.
Such as your repeated claim that pulling forces do not exist, that the RE is nonsense, that gravity is fictional, and so on.
They are claims you are putting out as factual, with no justification at all.

Yep but you have to understand you are having to see it from my point. The onus is on you to ask the questions in a way that can get me to piece answers to you

The problem is that whenever the question shows you are wrong, you typically dodge however you can rather than even attempting an explanation.
When you do decide to give an "answer" you typically still ignore the problem.

So we have met that onus. So the onus is on you to start providing answers.

The problem is you people start to become bitter

Because you continually deflect and throw out insults.

Can you give me a proof of orbital mechanics so I can see it in action in real time?

That would be the relative position of the planets.
Go find where the planets are predicted to be in the sky based upon orbital mechanics, and then go look for them.

Another proof would be the analemma, but that intrinsically cannot be real time, as it requires observing the changes in the apparent position of the sun over the period of a year, taking a note of the position every 24 hours exactly.

But the reality is, I'm travelling at 100mph, regardless. and the other train is travelling at 1mph, regardless.

No, the reality is that all motion is relative.
As a simple example, consider you are on a train moving at 100 miles per hour. You have no view to the outside world at all, you can use whatever instruments you want, but again, they have no connection to the outside world. You can only measure things on the train. How fast are you going, and how do you determine this?

The point is you cannot determine how fast you are going.
There is no absolute frame.

But that is just basic relativity.
Special relativity brings in light.
Regardless of how fast you are going, the speed of light is the same.
Even if you are travelling at 90 % of the speed of light, if someone shines a light at you, you will still measure that light as going at the speed of light.

They are predictions for reality from one person's reference point, just a trick of the mind as to what appears to stand out.

No, not a trick of the mind.
A prediction of how reality will appear to any particular reference frame.

Yes but the frames of reference do not give out real usable answers for anything physical.

How?
They sure seem to give our real usable answers.
Do you just not like them because it is all relative rather than absolute?

Anyone can make this stuff up because there's no proof to it.

Except the measured time dilation and things like that.
There is plenty of "proof".
You not liking it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Some has been given. Some is firmly with me.

Where has any of your evidence been given?

Most of it you and other refuse to even think on which sets you back to square one. That's down to you.

No, the problem for you is that we DO think on it. This means instead of just blindly accepting whatever garbage you say, we think on it and realise it either makes no sense or causes massive problems.
For example, your claim about magnets superficially appears to work, until you actually bother thinking about it and realise that fails to actually explain the observed polarity of magnets and thus fails to explain magnets.
Likewise, your claim about everything being a push may superficially appear to work, until you actually bother thinking about it and realise that the links themselves need a pulling force to hold themselves together, and thus your claim of everything being a push fails to explain how a chain works.
Likewise, your claim of the atmosphere above causing the air below to be compressed to create a pressure gradient superficially appears to work (and does actually work when you accept gravity), but when you think about it and realise that it is meant to be the air and this pressure gradient that pushes things down in the first place in your model and thus there is no reason for the air to push down in the first place, and no explanation for the force increasing.
Likewise, your claim of the atmosphere pushing things down may superficially appear to work, until you actually think about it and realise the air is pushing from all directions and thus shouldn't push down. Instead the only force from the air would come from a pressure gradient, but that pressure gradient would push us up, not down, as the pressure is greater below.
Likewise, your claim that the air above and lack of air below causing the air to push the object down, for an object sitting on the ground superficially appears to work, until you actually think and realise that if that was the case, the force would be proportional to area, not mass, and that this should also work if you put an object against a wall or a ceiling, as observed with suction cups, but don't with the vast majority of objects, and thus fails to actually work.
And so on.

So the problem is we DO think, and that thinking shows your model doesn't work, so you try running back to square one to pretend it works.
So that's down to you and your models failing to match reality.
We are not the problem.

Why don't you at least honestly state what you really want?
For us to not think at all and just blindly accept what you say, ignoring any contradictions in what you say and just pretending it all works.
Because it seems that that is the only way to move on from square one with your nonsense, to blindly accept whatever nonsense you spout, without thinking at all.

believe nothing and question everything....until

Until you get to your own claims, where it switches to believe everything, question nothing.
But we all know it isn't real "question" everything. It is outright deny and ignore everything.

You don't question things that show you are wrong, you dismiss it as fake or ignore it

I demand nothing

Rubbish..  you are always asking people to 'explain' things to you.  And then if when they explain things better than you can refute them or better than you can understand them, you simply dismiss them.  Is it a growing trend with you.

I still don't understand where this statement that you are 'in awe' of most scientists.  How can you be in such contempt of everything scientists put forward as evidence and be in awe of them at the same time?!?  Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

The cork or paper will move eventually, if you wait.

So, where are these magnets, if this is what's happening in earth's atmosphere?

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 10:15:54 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 09:58:06 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

The vortex is acted upon by the atmosphere. It always attempts to equalise the pressure.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

Something has to create the pressure difference.
Just like the plug in your sink. If it's left in then the sink full of water stays consistent. If there is a slight bleed from the plug then your water starts to move and change in pressure, slightly.
Add a force to that plug to push it open a little bit more and you gain a pressure change much stronger as create a vortex within that centre.

Now then, here's where we have to assume the water in that sink is the air we are in. The more the water is draining from the sink the more water is added. Or, if you think of atmosphere, the more the atmosphere fills the lower pressure.
The higher pressure is pushing out of the pipe and back into the atmosphere to equalise pressure. It's a loop.
We are in a consistent vortex on Earth starting from the extreme mild to the extreme severe towards the centre...like the sink and plug hole.


No gravity is needed. Just pressures created by different molecular set ups and breakdowns.

I never knew you were an expert in astronomy.  Why didn't you tell me?  You seem to have decided on a lot of topics about what there is and isn't evidence for. Maybe I should ask you some more questions on the subject as you are such an authority.

Perhaps for example you could explain why stars disappear behind the Moon on the unlit side of it (eastern side during waxing) and then reappear on the western limb a while later.  This would seem to evidence that something is blocking the light from the star behind from reaching the eye of the observer.  Such as solid rock for example.  Unless you have any alternative explanations for how the light of a hologram can block light from a different source?

As for the wobble of the Earths axis.  This is observable in tiny amounts so that the authors of star charts have to state the epoch for which the star positions are plotted.  You know what observable means yes?  We can see it.  We can measure it.  Is that simple and clear enough for you to understand or shall I just use words of one syllable for you?

Mock astronomy as much as you like but ignorance of the facts won't make them go away.

Washout.

When the air is removed, what then?
You are argueing very easily verifiably demonstratably repeatably observations.
Seriously.
These arent abstract concepts that rely on phd "indoctrinated" physcists to explain.
You could do the experiments yourself to see the results.
Try it.

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 11:13:10 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 10:15:54 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 09:58:06 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

The vortex is acted upon by the atmosphere. It always attempts to equalise the pressure.

Okay, so my magnet is sitting on the table now.  Around it, air is swirling, but swirling so slowly it can not even push a feather.  Inside the solid metal magnet though, the atmosphere flows and the pressure drops, and the swirling intensifies into a vortex of atmosphere inside the magnet. 

Is that right?  If so, where does the vortex of atmosphere go?  The kitchen sink leads to a lower pressure exit, what is the equivalent here?

Something has to create the pressure difference.
Just like the plug in your sink. If it's left in then the sink full of water stays consistent. If there is a slight bleed from the plug then your water starts to move and change in pressure, slightly.
Add a force to that plug to push it open a little bit more and you gain a pressure change much stronger as create a vortex within that centre.

Now then, here's where we have to assume the water in that sink is the air we are in. The more the water is draining from the sink the more water is added. Or, if you think of atmosphere, the more the atmosphere fills the lower pressure.
The higher pressure is pushing out of the pipe and back into the atmosphere to equalise pressure. It's a loop.

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 03:11:36 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on March 01, 2021, 03:07:47 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 03:03:05 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on February 28, 2021, 12:31:29 PM

Explain it instead of dodging.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is going to happen.

Try it and then explain what happens.
I can clearly see you haven't tried it.

You mean you are clearly using whatever excuse you can to avoid the issue.
The 2 nozzles are drawn towards each other (just like the dust is) and basically latch onto each other. Then the vacuum cleaner starts making a different noise as it is no longer sucking the air through.

There is no sucking of air through, so try again.
And clearly you have not performed this two cleaner experiment.

Semantics.
You know what is meant by "sucking the air through".
Now stop deflecting.
If you think I haven't done the experiment and that you would get a different result, provide it here.
Because even if someone hasn't done the experiment, simple logic shows you are wrong.
There is no way for those 2 sides to repel one another.
The "vortex of air" would cause them to move towards one another.

And try it, I have.

I have two near identical cordless cleaners.
Instead of you going into raptures...you try it.

Quote

I demand nothing

Rubbish..  you are always asking people to 'explain' things to you.  And then if when they explain things better than you can refute them or better than you can understand them, you simply dismiss them.  Is it a growing trend with you.

I still don't understand where this statement that you are 'in awe' of most scientists.  How can you be in such contempt of everything scientists put forward as evidence and be in awe of them at the same time?!?  Opposite ends of the spectrum.

Calm yourself down and stop the bitterness, Mr nasty.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 08:05:19 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 01, 2021, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

It's not like there's some tornado going on outside.

So no external swirling vortex of atmosphere?

Yes, a slow swirl that creates a larger vortex in the magnet which creates a pressure difference. A high to low pressure difference.

Quote from: sobchak

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 01, 2021, 06:33:25 AM

Do you feel the water in a full sink, vortex or do you only feel it when the water is about to go?

Well, in atmosphere you are always in the full sink.
I'll let you think on it.

You only feel the water's movement when it actually moves.  So if I think about what you say, you are suggesting as I can not feel any movement, it means the atmosphere isn't moving through or around the magnet.  Correct?

No.
If you fill your sink to the top and then place a  cork or tiny piece of paper, etc on that surface then take the plug out, the vortex is created towards that plug hole but your cork or paper does not move, hardly, on that surface.

The cork or paper will move eventually, if you wait.

So, where are these magnets, if this is what's happening in earth's atmosphere?

They will only move if there is an outlet open for them to move. As in, the plug being slightly released.
This is what is happening consistently with magnets, imo....but it's a trickle flow until something changes it.

When the air is removed, what then?
You are argueing very easily verifiably demonstratably repeatably observations.
Seriously.
These arent abstract concepts that rely on phd "indoctrinated" physcists to explain.
You could do the experiments yourself to see the results.
Try it.

Atmosphere is never ever removed.

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 02:53:41 AM

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet? 

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it. 

Quote from: Themightykabool on March 02, 2021, 02:28:08 AM

When the air is removed, what then?
You are argueing very easily verifiably demonstratably repeatably observations.
Seriously.
These arent abstract concepts that rely on phd "indoctrinated" physcists to explain.
You could do the experiments yourself to see the results.
Try it.

Atmosphere is never ever removed.

What if it is removed to an insignificant amount?
Are you saying that this cant be done?
Because youve already previously agreeed to this.

And if its there in a minor minor amount, what inherent mechanism is there that allows it to operate regardless of amount?
Becuase a compass or magnet will spin regardless of how much air pressure (in the traditional sense) is acting upon it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:16:12 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 02:53:41 AM

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet? 

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Maube sceppy could draw this vortex on a map-map.

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:16:12 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 02:53:41 AM

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet? 

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Maube sceppy could draw this vortex on a map-map.

A diagram of any sorts would be incredibly useful.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?
  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet?

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Ok, you have to remember that the sink is the analogy as in terms of atmosphere.
You have to remember that the sink never empties. It's always filling as it empties. Action/reaction in equal terms.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:14:34 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on March 02, 2021, 02:28:08 AM

When the air is removed, what then?
You are argueing very easily verifiably demonstratably repeatably observations.
Seriously.
These arent abstract concepts that rely on phd "indoctrinated" physcists to explain.
You could do the experiments yourself to see the results.
Try it.

Atmosphere is never ever removed.

What if it is removed to an insignificant amount?
Are you saying that this cant be done?
Because youve already previously agreeed to this.

And if its there in a minor minor amount, what inherent mechanism is there that allows it to operate regardless of amount?
Becuase a compass or magnet will spin regardless of how much air pressure (in the traditional sense) is acting upon it.

Atmosphere as in all matter can not be free. It all has to be connected.
You can lower the pressure but you can not separate it to become free space.

Quote from: Themightykabool on March 02, 2021, 03:25:56 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:16:12 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 02:53:41 AM

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet? 

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Maube sceppy could draw this vortex on a map-map.

A diagram of any sorts would be incredibly useful.

Just take a look at the diagram of a magnet and it will give you a better clue.

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?
  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet?

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Ok, you have to remember that the sink is the analogy as in terms of atmosphere.
You have to remember that the sink never empties. It's always filling as it empties. Action/reaction in equal terms.

Yeah, you are losing me here.  You use the sink as a description, but then it is not like a sink after all.

The best thing you could do is clearly and simply state what the atmosphere is doing around / in my little magnet on my desk.  All I can sort of understand is that air is somehow continually being pulled into the solid metal into some sort of vortex at the center.  But since it is continually being pulled into the magnet, it seems like it has to go somewhere, but I don't understand where it goes.  You say it pours back into the magnet, but it still hasn't left the magnet at this point, so this doesnt make any sense to me. 

Can you state what is happening with the flow of air and its relationship to the magnet on the table more clearly?  Where does it enter the metal?  Does it exit?  Does it go from high to low pressure going into the magnet, then from low to high as it exits?

I am really struggling to form a cohesive view of how you imagine this is happening.  Can you clarify further or is communicating your ideas not really possible at the moment?

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:50:22 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on March 02, 2021, 03:25:56 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:16:12 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 02:53:41 AM

Okay, so we are in a fluid like in a sink.  I have a little magnet on my desk.  This fluid that we are in (the air) is draining through a vortex in my little magnet on the desk?

Where does it drain to?  If we use a sink as a analogy, it doesnt drain back into itself, right?

It drains right back into the magnet.

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet? 

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Maube sceppy could draw this vortex on a map-map.

A diagram of any sorts would be incredibly useful.

Just take a look at the diagram of a magnet and it will give you a better clue.

I cant understand what you think is happening from looking a diagram of a magnet.  Would need your help here, and is in fact the only question I have been asking for the past few pages - how does your view of how my little magnet in front of me differ from the conventional model. 

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:54:46 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?
  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet?

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Ok, you have to remember that the sink is the analogy as in terms of atmosphere.
You have to remember that the sink never empties. It's always filling as it empties. Action/reaction in equal terms.

Yeah, you are losing me here.  You use the sink as a description, but then it is not like a sink after all.

The best thing you could do is clearly and simply state what the atmosphere is doing around / in my little magnet on my desk.  All I can sort of understand is that air is somehow continually being pulled into the solid metal into some sort of vortex at the center.  But since it is continually being pulled into the magnet, it seems like it has to go somewhere, but I don't understand where it goes.  You say it pours back into the magnet, but it still hasn't left the magnet at this point, so this doesnt make any sense to me. 

Can you state what is happening with the flow of air and its relationship to the magnet on the table more clearly?  Where does it enter the metal?  Does it exit?  Does it go from high to low pressure going into the magnet, then from low to high as it exits?

I am really struggling to form a cohesive view of how you imagine this is happening.  Can you clarify further or is communicating your ideas not really possible at the moment?

You're getting mixed up.
I'm trying to give you an idea of it but you're not grasping it. It could be due to how I'm explaining but that's something you may need to work hard at in understanding.

I can try and help with a diagram but not just yet.

I cant understand what you think is happening from looking a diagram of a magnet.  Would need your help here, and is in fact the only question I have been asking for the past few pages - how does your view of how my little magnet in front of me differ from the conventional model.

How does the conventional model work and what makes it work? Let's see where we go from that.
Can you simply explain it?

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 04:33:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 02, 2021, 03:54:46 AM

Quote from: sobchak on March 02, 2021, 03:22:51 AM

I dont follow.  We are imagining it is like a sink with a hole, right?  The water flows out of the hole and goes somewhere else, it doesnt flow back into the hole does it?
  But somehow in the magnet case, the magnet pulls atmosphere though it like a drain, but then air drains back into the magnet?

This is really hard to follow.  I hope you realize that.  It might seem clear in your mind, but you are not communicating it clearly to others.  I am trying as hard as I can to understand the idea you have thought up but I am really struggling to grasp it.

Ok, you have to remember that the sink is the analogy as in terms of atmosphere.
You have to remember that the sink never empties. It's always filling as it empties. Action/reaction in equal terms.

Yeah, you are losing me here.  You use the sink as a description, but then it is not like a sink after all.

The best thing you could do is clearly and simply state what the atmosphere is doing around / in my little magnet on my desk.  All I can sort of understand is that air is somehow continually being pulled into the solid metal into some sort of vortex at the center.  But since it is continually being pulled into the magnet, it seems like it has to go somewhere, but I don't understand where it goes.  You say it pours back into the magnet, but it still hasn't left the magnet at this point, so this doesnt make any sense to me. 

Can you state what is happening with the flow of air and its relationship to the magnet on the table more clearly?  Where does it enter the metal?  Does it exit?  Does it go from high to low pressure going into the magnet, then from low to high as it exits?

I am really struggling to form a cohesive view of how you imagine this is happening.  Can you clarify further or is communicating your ideas not really possible at the moment?

You're getting mixed up.
I'm trying to give you an idea of it but you're not grasping it. It could be due to how I'm explaining but that's something you may need to work hard at in understanding.

I can try and help with a diagram but not just yet.

Then unmix me.  I am reading every word you write with an open mind, trying my hardest to understand the concept you are trying to get across.  Yet at this point, Im still not able to reach a core understanding.  I go back and reread what you wrote, trying to parse it down to its basics, I think about the conceptualization in my free time.  What more can I do?   

Why is your concept, if it is so simple to you, so incredibly difficult to pass on clearly to others?