Orbits. How do they work?

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 06:24:41 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on October 18, 2020, 07:29:07 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 18, 2020, 07:04:45 PM

We have provided information to answer all of those questions numerous times.  What more can we do to satisfy you?

Why do you say that? Who has provided any info to me or anyone about changing orbits in space?

I have provided links to several textbooks about orbital mechanics but you obviously just ignored them.  Here's another one for you to deny.
http://www.nssc.ac.cn/wxzygx/weixin/201607/P020160718380095698873.pdf

Yes, Thanks a lot. But topic is something else. However, Howard D. Curtis of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, Florida, is a 2005 expert of space travel. He likes Hohmann transfers where it  take years to go from one orbit to another, if you are there at the right time in 3D space to do it, when the orbits contact each other, when you are there.
You cannot go to the Moon with his ideas. This Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, Daytona Beach, Florida, (https://daytonabeach.erau.edu/ ) looks like Disney Land to me. How much does it cost to join? Nobody knows.

See lying once again. How is a text titled "Orbital Mechanics for Engineering students" not relevant to the topic of "Orbits. How do they work"?
The University "looks like Disney Land to me."? What does that have to do with anything? Just more lies and opinion. You never provide any evidence. Just lies.
It's sad really.

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

Anders' only degree is in porta potty cleaning and repair.

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space. And that you cannot shift from one orbit to another, e.g. around Earth (orbiting the Sun) to around the Moon (orbiting Earth).
Only people suffering from cognitive dissonance think otherwise.

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 01:15:31 PM

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space. And that you cannot shift from one orbit to another, e.g. around Earth (orbiting the Sun) to around the Moon (orbiting Earth).
Only people suffering from cognitive dissonance think otherwise.

Orbital mechanics and mechanical engineering are not mutually inclusive.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 19, 2020, 07:44:30 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 01:15:31 PM

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space. And that you cannot shift from one orbit to another, e.g. around Earth (orbiting the Sun) to around the Moon (orbiting Earth).
Only people suffering from cognitive dissonance think otherwise.

Orbital mechanics and mechanical engineering are not mutually inclusive.

No, the basics are the same. I'll pay you €1M when you show me wrong - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm
You sound poor so have a go.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 19, 2020, 09:39:48 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on October 19, 2020, 07:44:30 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 01:15:31 PM

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space. And that you cannot shift from one orbit to another, e.g. around Earth (orbiting the Sun) to around the Moon (orbiting Earth).
Only people suffering from cognitive dissonance think otherwise.

Orbital mechanics and mechanical engineering are not mutually inclusive.

No, the basics are the same. I'll pay you €1M when you show me wrong - http://heiwaco.com/chall.htm
You sound poor so have a go.

You've already been shown how orbits work and how a craft can change orbit. With data and calculations, etc. And so far your only response has been, "impossible". Without providing any evidence to back up your denials. So there is really no point as you don't have a challenge and are unwilling to examine and reply to the evidence provided.
Are you just desperate for attention? You've even gone so far as to bump the €1M challenge thread after it lay dormant for a couple of weeks even though it has, for some bizarre reason, the luxury of being stickied. I think it's time we get that thread un-stickied. Not to mention all you really do is try and drive people back to your site from here. Which is a violation and has been reported. What's your game?

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 01:15:31 PM

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space.

I didn't ask you about your mechanical engineering education.  Where did you receive your orbital mechanics education?  Do you honestly think that you know everything there is to know about orbital mechanics?

Quote from: Heiwa on October 19, 2020, 07:44:30 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 19, 2020, 01:15:31 PM

Anders, where did you receive your education in orbital mechanics?  How much did you spend for that degree?

In Sweden until 1971! I paid SEK 0:- for it. The mechanical engineering education I got was very good. Kept me busy all my life.
But topic is about orbits in space.

I didn't ask you about your mechanical engineering education.  Where did you receive your orbital mechanics education?  Do you honestly think that you know everything there is to know about orbital mechanics?

As far as I am concerned orbital mechanics is about spacecraft trajectories, including orbital maneuvers, orbital plane changes, and interplanetary transfers, and is used by mission planners to predict the results of propulsive maneuvers in space.
Orbits are elliptical, with the heavier body (a star/sun/planet/moon) at one focus of the ellipse and the spacecraft moving around the star/sun/planet/moon. A special case of this is a circular orbit (a circle is a special case of ellipse) with the star/sun/planet/moon at the center and the spacecraft flying around.
There is no way that a spacecraft can jump from one orbit to another, I have been taught. You sound like suffering from cognitive dissonance. Do you really suggest that a spacecraft can leave one orbit around a star/sun/planet/moon and start an orbit around another star/sun/planet/moon?

As far as I am concerned orbital mechanics is about spacecraft trajectories, including orbital maneuvers, orbital plane changes, and interplanetary transfers, and is used by mission planners to predict the results of propulsive maneuvers in space.

You still haven't answered my question.  Where did you learn about orbital mechanics?

There is no way that a spacecraft can jump from one orbit to another, I have been taught.

Who has ever claimed that spacecraft can "jump" from orbit to another?  The proper term is to "transfer" from one orbit to another.

Do you really suggest that a spacecraft can leave one orbit around a star/sun/planet/moon and start an orbit around another star/sun/planet/moon?

Arianespace seems to think that it's possible.

WASHINGTON — European launch provider Arianespace is planning a rideshare mission to the moon in 2023 as an early step toward increasing Europe’s involvement in lunar activity, CEO Stéphane Israël said Oct. 22. 

Israël, speaking at the 70th International Astronautical Congress here, said the rideshare mission will be able to deliver 8,500 kilograms into a lunar transfer orbit. Orbiters and/or landers would reach the moon three days after liftoff, he said.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 07:20:44 AM

As far as I am concerned orbital mechanics is about spacecraft trajectories, including orbital maneuvers, orbital plane changes, and interplanetary transfers, and is used by mission planners to predict the results of propulsive maneuvers in space.

You still haven't answered my question.  Where did you learn about orbital mechanics?

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 07:20:44 AM

There is no way that a spacecraft can jump from one orbit to another, I have been taught.

Who has ever claimed that spacecraft can "jump" from orbit to another?  The proper term is to "transfer" from one orbit to another.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 07:20:44 AM

Do you really suggest that a spacecraft can leave one orbit around a star/sun/planet/moon and start an orbit around another star/sun/planet/moon?

Arianespace seems to think that it's possible.

Quote from: https://spacenews.com/arianespace-targets-2023-for-lunar-ariane-6-rideshare-mission/

WASHINGTON — European launch provider Arianespace is planning a rideshare mission to the moon in 2023 as an early step toward increasing Europe’s involvement in lunar activity, CEO Stéphane Israël said Oct. 22. 

Israël, speaking at the 70th International Astronautical Congress here, said the rideshare mission will be able to deliver 8,500 kilograms into a lunar transfer orbit. Orbiters and/or landers would reach the moon three days after liftoff, he said.

Rideshare! Lunar transfer orbit? What on Earth is it? Arianespace (CEO Stéphane Israël) can only put max 400 kg in orbits around Earth and after that the owners of the satellites can do what ever they like with them. But not transfer them to other orbits. No way.

Rideshare! Lunar transfer orbit? What on Earth is it? Arianespace (CEO Stéphane Israël) can only put max 400 kg in orbits around Earth and after that the owners of the satellites can do what ever they like with them. But not transfer them to other orbits. No way.

It seems that you're a shareholder that doesn't even know the product line that you invested in.  From the Ariane 5 User Manual:
https://www.arianespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Ariane5_Users-Manual_October2016.pdf

The heavy lift capability of the launcher, associated with the large flexibility of the  upper  part  configurations  and  Arianespace  long demonstrated  ability  to manage  the  shared  launch  policy,  enables  Ariane  5  to  carry  any  type  of spacecraft, from the lightest ones (1000 kg or less) to the tallest and heaviest ones (9500 kg or even more), in shared or single launch, towards the standard GTO.

Also, the lunar ride share is for the upcoming Ariane 6.
https://www.arianespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mua-6_Issue-1_Revision-0_March-2018.pdf

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 09:48:51 AM

Rideshare! Lunar transfer orbit? What on Earth is it? Arianespace (CEO Stéphane Israël) can only put max 400 kg in orbits around Earth and after that the owners of the satellites can do what ever they like with them. But not transfer them to other orbits. No way.

It seems that you're a shareholder that doesn't even know the product line that you invested in.  From the Ariane 5 User Manual:
https://www.arianespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Ariane5_Users-Manual_October2016.pdf

Quote

The heavy lift capability of the launcher, associated with the large flexibility of the  upper  part  configurations  and  Arianespace  long demonstrated  ability  to manage  the  shared  launch  policy,  enables  Ariane  5  to  carry  any  type  of spacecraft, from the lightest ones (1000 kg or less) to the tallest and heaviest ones (9500 kg or even more), in shared or single launch, towards the standard GTO.

Also, the lunar ride share is for the upcoming Ariane 6.
https://www.arianespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Mua-6_Issue-1_Revision-0_March-2018.pdf

You are right. Imagine Arianespace say they can send a spacecraft into an elliptic orbit around Earth that reach where the Moon orbits Earth at 385 000 km altitude after unknown time. There the spacecraft has vertical velocity 0 m/s and will start to drop back to Earth again, while the Moon speeds by at >1000 m/s in the horizontal direction and will return after 28 days. Fantastic. Now - how does the spacecraft change its orbit around Earth to start orbiting the Moon?

You are right.

Thank you.

Imagine Arianespace say they can send a spacecraft into an elliptic orbit around Earth that reach where the Moon orbits Earth at 385 000 km altitude after unknown time. There the spacecraft has vertical velocity 0 m/s and will start to drop back to Earth again, while the Moon speeds by at >1000 m/s in the horizontal direction and will return after 28 days. Fantastic. Now - how does the spacecraft change its orbit around Earth to start orbiting the Moon?

Why don't you ask Arianespace at their next shareholder meeting?

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 11:54:14 AM

You are right.

Thank you.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 11:54:14 AM

Imagine Arianespace say they can send a spacecraft into an elliptic orbit around Earth that reach where the Moon orbits Earth at 385 000 km altitude after unknown time. There the spacecraft has vertical velocity 0 m/s and will start to drop back to Earth again, while the Moon speeds by at >1000 m/s in the horizontal direction and will return after 28 days. Fantastic. Now - how does the spacecraft change its orbit around Earth to start orbiting the Moon?

Why don't you ask Arianespace at their next shareholder meeting?

No, I ask the question here. Your spacecraft MARKJO orbits Earth in a circle at 300 km altitude at >7000 m/s. Then you fire a rocket so the orbit becomes elliptic with a maximum distance of 385 000 km (where the Moon orbits Earth in a circle 1011 m/s during 28 days) and a minimum altitude 300 km.
When your spacecraft is at 385 000 km altitude its vertical velocity is 0 for a second after an elliptic trajectory from Earth of unknown duration. After that it drops back to Earth where at 300 km altitude it is >11 000 m/s. After that it makes a new trip elliptic around Earth.
How do you plan the trip so you meet the Moon at 385 000 km altitude? Your vertical speed is 0 m/s. How do you fire your rocket to start orbiting the Moon passing by at 1011 m/s. If you arrive 1 minute too late the Moon is >60 kms away.

How do you plan the trip so you meet the Moon at 385 000 km altitude?

The first step is to convince myself that the trip is possible.  You don't seem to be able to get past that step.  After that, it's just a matter of learning enough about orbital mechanics to be able to do the math required to plan the trip.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 06:43:19 PM

How do you plan the trip so you meet the Moon at 385 000 km altitude?

The first step is to convince myself that the trip is possible.  You don't seem to be able to get past that step.  After that, it's just a matter of learning enough about orbital mechanics to be able to do the math required to plan the trip.

Hm, I fully agree with Arianespace that we can put a satellite/spacecraft in high speed/altitude orbits around Earth using an external rocket. No problem at  all. I have seen many rockets fly away with spacecrafts on top for it. But then?
How to reach a moving moon or other planet far away with a little spacecraft, start orbiting it and land on it?
Space travel experts say it is possible but cannot explain it. They say it is just done because a rocket took off from Earth.

How to reach a moving moon or other planet far away with a little spacecraft, start orbiting it and land on it?
Space travel experts say it is possible but cannot explain it.

Space travel experts can and do explain it, but you refuse to believe them.  That's more of a you problem than a them problem.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 10:28:50 PM

How to reach a moving moon or other planet far away with a little spacecraft, start orbiting it and land on it?
Space travel experts say it is possible but cannot explain it.

Space travel experts can and do explain it, but you refuse to believe them.  That's more of a you problem than a them problem.

No space expert has so far explained how a spacecraft orbiting planet Earth at variable speed/direction in one plane in space and approaching a celestial body (moon/planet) orbiting something else (planet/sun) in same space but in another plane and high speed can leave the first orbit around Earth and start orbiting the celestial body orbiting something else. It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

Quote from: markjo on October 21, 2020, 06:08:04 AM

Quote from: Heiwa on October 20, 2020, 10:28:50 PM

How to reach a moving moon or other planet far away with a little spacecraft, start orbiting it and land on it?
Space travel experts say it is possible but cannot explain it.

Space travel experts can and do explain it, but you refuse to believe them.  That's more of a you problem than a them problem.

No space expert has so far explained how a spacecraft orbiting planet Earth at variable speed/direction in one plane in space and approaching a celestial body (moon/planet) orbiting something else (planet/sun) in same space but in another plane and high speed can leave the first orbit around Earth and start orbiting the celestial body orbiting something else. It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

I phoned Arianespace to ask them for calculations showing it’s impossible to leave earth orbit and they told me to fuck off.

I rest my case.

It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

*sigh*
The moon orbits the earth.
The earth orbits the sun.
The solar system orbits the black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
Things orbit the strongest gravitational influence.
If the moon exerts a stronger gravitational influence on a spacecraft than the earth or the sun, then that spacecraft will orbit the moon.  Not magic, just physics (which appear to be the same thing to you).

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 06:49:34 AM

It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

*sigh*
The moon orbits the earth.
The earth orbits the sun.
The solar system orbits the black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
Things orbit the strongest gravitational influence.
If the moon exerts a stronger gravitational influence on a spacecraft than the earth or the sun, then that spacecraft will orbit the moon.  Not magic, just physics (which appear to be the same thing to you).

So my spacecraft orbits Earth at variable speed/altitude in one plane and I approach the Moon that also orbits Earth but at constant speed/altitude in another plane. When does the Moon exert a stronger gravitational influence than Earth on my spacecraft, so I suddenly start to orbit the Moon?

Quote from: markjo on October 21, 2020, 03:14:57 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 06:49:34 AM

It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

*sigh*
The moon orbits the earth.
The earth orbits the sun.
The solar system orbits the black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
Things orbit the strongest gravitational influence.
If the moon exerts a stronger gravitational influence on a spacecraft than the earth or the sun, then that spacecraft will orbit the moon.  Not magic, just physics (which appear to be the same thing to you).

So my spacecraft orbits Earth at variable speed/altitude in one plane and I approach the Moon that also orbits Earth but at constant speed/altitude in another plane. When does the Moon exert a stronger gravitational influence than Earth on my spacecraft, so I suddenly start to orbit the Moon?

Pretty much once you get past the L1 point and enter the moon's gravity well.  That is assuming that you adjust your velocity correctly for your intended orbit, of course.  Orbit transfers make more sense when you understand the basics of gravitational influence of celestial bodies.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 07:26:37 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 21, 2020, 03:14:57 PM

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 06:49:34 AM

It is suggested that a FORCE is applied to the spacecraft (by a rocket engine) in a certain location/ direction and duration in space and ... magic ... the spacecraft orbits the celestial body (and not Earth).
Where can I find a simple description of it?

*sigh*
The moon orbits the earth.
The earth orbits the sun.
The solar system orbits the black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
Things orbit the strongest gravitational influence.
If the moon exerts a stronger gravitational influence on a spacecraft than the earth or the sun, then that spacecraft will orbit the moon.  Not magic, just physics (which appear to be the same thing to you).

So my spacecraft orbits Earth at variable speed/altitude in one plane and I approach the Moon that also orbits Earth but at constant speed/altitude in another plane. When does the Moon exert a stronger gravitational influence than Earth on my spacecraft, so I suddenly start to orbit the Moon?

Pretty much once you get past the L1 point and enter the moon's gravity well.  That is assuming that you adjust your velocity correctly for your intended orbit, of course.  Orbit transfers make more sense when you understand the basics of gravitational influence of celestial bodies.

I know about gravity forces. I know also that to land on the Moon you have to approach it and it means that I will pass the invisible L1 point. Do you suggest that I just start orbiting the Moon when passing L1?
Actually point L1 is moving at 1011 m/s speed and is invisble so how do I know where it is? And why do I start orbiting from there? Why don't I drop straight down on the Moon and crash?

I know about gravity forces.

Your post history suggests otherwise.

Do you suggest that I just start orbiting the Moon when passing L1?

Whether you orbit the moon or not depends on your speed and direction relative to the moon after you pass L1. 

Actually point L1 is moving at 1011 m/s speed and is invisble so how do I know where it is?

I'm sorry but I thought that you were carefully planning your trip to the moon and knew how to do the math to determine where L1 and the moon would be at any given time along your trip.  If you want to just hop in your spacecraft and blast your way towards the moon without lots of careful planning and simulations, then obviously you're headed for disaster.

And why do I start orbiting from there?

Because the moon's gravitational influence is stronger than the earth's after you pass L1.  I thought that you said that you understood gravity and orbits.

Why don't I drop straight down on the Moon and crash?

For the same reason that earth orbiting satellites don't drop straight down and crash.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 11:45:06 PM

I know about gravity forces.

Your post history suggests otherwise.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 11:45:06 PM

Do you suggest that I just start orbiting the Moon when passing L1?

Whether you orbit the moon or not depends on your speed and direction relative to the moon after you pass L1. 

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 11:45:06 PM

Actually point L1 is moving at 1011 m/s speed and is invisble so how do I know where it is?

I'm sorry but I thought that you were carefully planning your trip to the moon and knew how to do the math to determine where L1 and the moon would be at any given time along your trip.  If you want to just hop in your spacecraft and blast your way towards the moon without lots of careful planning and simulations, then obviously you're headed for disaster.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 11:45:06 PM

And why do I start orbiting from there?

Because the moon's gravitational influence is stronger than the earth's after you pass L1.  I thought that you said that you understood gravity and orbits.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 21, 2020, 11:45:06 PM

Why don't I drop straight down on the Moon and crash?

For the same reason that earth orbiting satellites don't drop straight down and crash.

Markjo - you have proven you are an idiot. Pls stop making a fool of your self.

There is a fool in this thread but it’s not markjo.

Markjo - you have proven you are an idiot. Pls stop making a fool of your self.

If you think that understanding physics makes me an idiot, then I suppose I'm an idiot.  But what does that make you?

Anders thinks he is Rain Man.

Quote from: Heiwa on October 22, 2020, 12:31:25 PM

Markjo - you have proven you are an idiot. Pls stop making a fool of your self.

If you think that understanding physics makes me an idiot, then I suppose I'm an idiot.  But what does that make you?

I am a normal person with a name and address - http://heiwaco.tripod.com/cv.htm - and I want to know how a spacecraft shifts from an orbit around Earth to an orbit around the Moon.
You suggest that the spacecraft should aim for an invisible point L1 in space that orbits at 1011 m/s in space around Earth in a circle. L1 apparently is a location in space where Earth and Moon gravity forces on a spacecraft are equal.
When the spacecraft arrives at point L1 it fires its engine and starts orbiting the Moon.
Let me repeat: How does a spacecraft arrive at point L1 and start orbiting Earth with it at constant speed 1011 m/s? The space craft is already orbiting Earth with variable speed/direction in another plane/orbit.