Orbits. How do they work?

  • 431 Replies
  • 11818 Views
*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2020, 01:19:24 AM »
To orbit Earth at various altitudes you have to depart more horizontally, etc, and you can orbit there for ever ... but never start orbiting anything else.

Why not?
Easy! Gravity! Anything ejected from Earth can only orbit (topic) Earth due to gravity. Say that you eject something straight, vertically up, away from Earth. That orbit will be a straight line, variable velocity trajectory up and down ending in a crash. Say that a 200 000 m altitude your vertical velocity is 11.2 km/s (after a certain time) and that the rocket engine is shut off. Immediately gravity slows you down and a few days later your vertical velocity is 0 and you drop back. When you on the return pass 200 000 m altitude above Earth your speed is -11.2 km/s and a few seconds later you crash on Earth. No way to brake in orbit

If you eject in another direction than vertical, you will orbit Earth in a circle or ellipse. Round and round. For ever. Quite boring!

Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude, so that spacecrafts can escape into the Universe having a certain velocity ... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....


« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 01:22:44 AM by Heiwa »

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2020, 02:45:41 AM »
... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....

Gravity doesn't work like that? Do explain. Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance? How so and how does that work? Reference?

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2020, 03:05:37 AM »
... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....

Gravity doesn't work like that? Do explain. Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance? How so and how does that work? Reference?

Please. Gravity is a force (unit Newton, N) that attracts masses (unit kilogram, kg). The is a variable function of the distance (unit meters) between the masses. Gravity force will accelerate (unit m/s≤) the mass it attracts. Any object ejected from Earth will orbit Earth due to gravity. If the ejection is vertically up, the object will later drop down on Earth due to gravity. If not, i.e. not vertical, it will dynamically orbit Earth, i.e. fly around Earth, where gravity and dynamic forces are balanced. It is basic.
Of course plenty religious sects preach other things. Are you a member of such a sect?

IMO all religious sects should be allowed but when it comes to science they should be kept apart.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 03:07:34 AM by Heiwa »

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2020, 04:20:25 AM »
... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....

Gravity doesn't work like that? Do explain. Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance? How so and how does that work? Reference?

Please. Gravity is a force (unit Newton, N) that attracts masses (unit kilogram, kg). The is a variable function of the distance (unit meters) between the masses. Gravity force will accelerate (unit m/s≤) the mass it attracts. Any object ejected from Earth will orbit Earth due to gravity. If the ejection is vertically up, the object will later drop down on Earth due to gravity. If not, i.e. not vertical, it will dynamically orbit Earth, i.e. fly around Earth, where gravity and dynamic forces are balanced. It is basic.
Of course plenty religious sects preach other things. Are you a member of such a sect?

IMO all religious sects should be allowed but when it comes to science they should be kept apart.

You're not answering the question: Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance?

?

frenat

  • 3639
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2020, 04:23:44 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2020, 04:28:21 AM »
... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....

Gravity doesn't work like that? Do explain. Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance? How so and how does that work? Reference?

Please. Gravity is a force (unit Newton, N) that attracts masses (unit kilogram, kg). The is a variable function of the distance (unit meters) between the masses. Gravity force will accelerate (unit m/s≤) the mass it attracts. Any object ejected from Earth will orbit Earth due to gravity. If the ejection is vertically up, the object will later drop down on Earth due to gravity. If not, i.e. not vertical, it will dynamically orbit Earth, i.e. fly around Earth, where gravity and dynamic forces are balanced. It is basic.
Of course plenty religious sects preach other things. Are you a member of such a sect?

IMO all religious sects should be allowed but when it comes to science they should be kept apart.

You're not answering the question: Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance?
?? No, gravity force is always between any masses anywhere. It's amount is only a function of the distance between the masses.
It is nothing religious about it. Gravity is a fact. Gravity has always existed. Gravity has not been created out of nothing. I explain a little at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravelb.htm

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2020, 04:32:01 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?

?

frenat

  • 3639
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2020, 04:38:51 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?
Your evasion helps to prove my point. YOU made the claim that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,". YOU need to prove your assertion. And I bet you can't. I just want to see the evidence that you based your opinion on.

And I didn't ask a question. I made a clear statement that you couldn't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'expert'" that thinks what you said they think. Your first clue should have been that there were no question marks in my post.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 04:44:04 AM by frenat »

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2020, 08:16:26 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?
Your evasion helps to prove my point. YOU made the claim that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,". YOU need to prove your assertion. And I bet you can't. I just want to see the evidence that you based your opinion on.

And I didn't ask a question. I made a clear statement that you couldn't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'expert'" that thinks what you said they think. Your first clue should have been that there were no question marks in my post.
Why do you get so upset? I am not lying. According US universities (like Harvard/MIT/Yale) space travel is easy. Just speed up to Earth 'escape velocity' 11.2 km/s and you can go anywhere in the Universe from Earth.
But it is complete nonsense. You cannot go anywhere from Earth in space. Gravity will always stop you as I have explained above. There is no way to return safely.
http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm is about a Swedish Royal Institute offering education about space travel. Fuglesang!  But he is just a lying actor/clown. Call him at  +468 790 64 65 !

?

frenat

  • 3639
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2020, 08:30:20 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?
Your evasion helps to prove my point. YOU made the claim that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,". YOU need to prove your assertion. And I bet you can't. I just want to see the evidence that you based your opinion on.

And I didn't ask a question. I made a clear statement that you couldn't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'expert'" that thinks what you said they think. Your first clue should have been that there were no question marks in my post.
Why do you get so upset? I am not lying. According US universities (like Harvard/MIT/Yale) space travel is easy. Just speed up to Earth 'escape velocity' 11.2 km/s and you can go anywhere in the Universe from Earth.
But it is complete nonsense. You cannot go anywhere from Earth in space. Gravity will always stop you as I have explained above. There is no way to return safely.
http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm is about a Swedish Royal Institute offering education about space travel. Fuglesang!  But he is just a lying actor/clown. Call him at  +468 790 64 65 !
I'm not upset at all. I'm laughing at you. You obviously don't understand what is meant by escape velocity nor really much about how orbits work.  And you still can't back up your LIE that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2020, 09:54:53 AM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?
Your evasion helps to prove my point. YOU made the claim that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,". YOU need to prove your assertion. And I bet you can't. I just want to see the evidence that you based your opinion on.

And I didn't ask a question. I made a clear statement that you couldn't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'expert'" that thinks what you said they think. Your first clue should have been that there were no question marks in my post.
Why do you get so upset? I am not lying. According US universities (like Harvard/MIT/Yale) space travel is easy. Just speed up to Earth 'escape velocity' 11.2 km/s and you can go anywhere in the Universe from Earth.
But it is complete nonsense. You cannot go anywhere from Earth in space. Gravity will always stop you as I have explained above. There is no way to return safely.
http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm is about a Swedish Royal Institute offering education about space travel. Fuglesang!  But he is just a lying actor/clown. Call him at  +468 790 64 65 !
I'm not upset at all. I'm laughing at you. You obviously don't understand what is meant by escape velocity nor really much about how orbits work.  And you still can't back up your LIE that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
After laughing you are invited to explain to me a simple space trip to the Moon. What is the trajectory? An orbit? Or just straight from Earth to Moon? Duration? 4 days! Why not?  Does the speed vary during the trip?
I know the matter is already discussed in the I won  Heiwa's Ä1M Challenge thread on top of this page since many years with plenty losers and me laughing. There you suggest again that I LIE!
Can't you do better than that? Why would I lie about anyting?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 10:02:16 AM by Heiwa »

*

NotSoSkeptical

  • 6578
  • Flatness as in the shape of a water droplet.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2020, 10:40:54 AM »
Drooling on yourself is not laughing.


Traversing between the earth and mars isn't as difficult as you think.

Simple example:

2 tankers are "circling" the island of Crete. The 1st tanker keeps an average distance of 1.4km from shore with a speed of 10knots.  The 2nd tanker keeps an average distance of 2.2km from shore with a speed of 6knots.  The tankers are currently on opposite sides of the island and cannot deviate from their course.  You are in a small boat that must travel from the first tanker to the second tanker without either tanker stopping. Determine when you will depart and your speed in order to arrive at the 2nd tanker using the least amount of fuel possible.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 10:43:20 AM by NotSoSkeptical »
Rabinoz RIP

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2020, 01:36:57 PM »
... but gravity doesn't work like that. Gravity always attracts masses regardless of distance between them. No escape! No trips to the Moon, Mars, Venus or anywhere in our Solar system or the Universe. Of course there are religious, secret sects preaching the opposite ....

Gravity doesn't work like that? Do explain. Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance? How so and how does that work? Reference?

Please. Gravity is a force (unit Newton, N) that attracts masses (unit kilogram, kg). The is a variable function of the distance (unit meters) between the masses. Gravity force will accelerate (unit m/s≤) the mass it attracts. Any object ejected from Earth will orbit Earth due to gravity. If the ejection is vertically up, the object will later drop down on Earth due to gravity. If not, i.e. not vertical, it will dynamically orbit Earth, i.e. fly around Earth, where gravity and dynamic forces are balanced. It is basic.
Of course plenty religious sects preach other things. Are you a member of such a sect?

IMO all religious sects should be allowed but when it comes to science they should be kept apart.

You're not answering the question: Gravity has the same attractive strength regardless of distance?
?? No, gravity force is always between any masses anywhere. It's amount is only a function of the distance between the masses.
It is nothing religious about it. Gravity is a fact. Gravity has always existed. Gravity has not been created out of nothing. I explain a little at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravelb.htm

Earth's gravitational pull is stronger the closer you are to Earth. Logically, it's harder to get into orbit than it is to go beyond orbit because the gravitational pull lessens with distance. So why would it be harder to escape Earth's gravitational pull once in orbit?

?

frenat

  • 3639
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2020, 03:52:39 PM »
Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,

No they don't think that. Why do you lie?

I bet you can't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts'" that think " that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
?? Just prove your point and that I am wrong. Don't ask stupid questions about me lying. You sound like a religious sect fanatic that cannot accept reality. What sect is yours?
Your evasion helps to prove my point. YOU made the claim that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude,". YOU need to prove your assertion. And I bet you can't. I just want to see the evidence that you based your opinion on.

And I didn't ask a question. I made a clear statement that you couldn't produce one "Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'expert'" that thinks what you said they think. Your first clue should have been that there were no question marks in my post.
Why do you get so upset? I am not lying. According US universities (like Harvard/MIT/Yale) space travel is easy. Just speed up to Earth 'escape velocity' 11.2 km/s and you can go anywhere in the Universe from Earth.
But it is complete nonsense. You cannot go anywhere from Earth in space. Gravity will always stop you as I have explained above. There is no way to return safely.
http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm is about a Swedish Royal Institute offering education about space travel. Fuglesang!  But he is just a lying actor/clown. Call him at  +468 790 64 65 !
I'm not upset at all. I'm laughing at you. You obviously don't understand what is meant by escape velocity nor really much about how orbits work.  And you still can't back up your LIE that "Plenty Harvard/Yale, bla, bla, university educated, astrodynamic 'experts' think (LOL) that Earth gravity force stops at a certain altitude".
After laughing you are invited to explain to me a simple space trip to the Moon. What is the trajectory? An orbit? Or just straight from Earth to Moon? Duration? 4 days! Why not?  Does the speed vary during the trip?
I know the matter is already discussed in the I won  Heiwa's Ä1M Challenge thread on top of this page since many years with plenty losers and me laughing. There you suggest again that I LIE!
Can't you do better than that? Why would I lie about anyting?
All those words and you still don't even try to back up your lie. Just further evidence that you know you can't back it up.

As for your fraud of a "challenge", it has been explained to you many times and all you've done is shown you don't understand the subject much to the amusement of others. It is clear you aren't qualified to judge your own "challenge" which is a good thing for you because nobody believes it is real anyway. A real challenge would have a qualified judge and proven award.  You have neither.

Why would you lie? Only you know for sure but you've been caught in many lies over the years. I suspect it is to make yourself feel more important.


*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41427
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2020, 04:41:31 PM »
After laughing you are invited to explain to me a simple space trip to the Moon. What is the trajectory? An orbit? Or just straight from Earth to Moon? Duration? 4 days! Why not?  Does the speed vary during the trip?

If you would bother to learn the basics of orbital dynamics, you should be able to answer all of those questions yourself.  This should help:


And if you want to go to Mars, here's how:


By the way, you owe him a million Euros.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2020, 06:46:52 PM »
After laughing you are invited to explain to me a simple space trip to the Moon. What is the trajectory? An orbit? Or just straight from Earth to Moon? Duration? 4 days! Why not?  Does the speed vary during the trip?

If you would bother to learn the basics of orbital dynamics, you should be able to answer all of those questions yourself.  This should help:


And if you want to go to Mars, here's how:


By the way, you owe him a million Euros.
No, spacecrafts getting into orbits around Earth is always doing a variable speed, one-way trip either in circular LEO or off to the Moon or Mars in elliptical orbits. There is no way to stop anywhere in orbit or get off and land safely on Earth (or the Moon and Mars).
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.
So all alleged space trips with humans aboard are fake/Fake News just for entertainment since 1961. No humans have ever been in space. It started as Soviet communist propaganda 1961, which USA just copied using Hollywood props. That's why nobody has won my Ä1M Challenge.

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2020, 06:59:35 PM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2020, 01:53:40 AM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth. To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41427
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2020, 09:17:37 AM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth.
Not if you're smart about your rocket design.

To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
You keep saying that, yet satellites need to change their orbits from LEO to geostationary which usually requires several delta-v inputs.

So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.
If they were falsifying their calculations, then we wouldn't have thousands of satellites in orbit right now, wouldt we?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2020, 10:32:57 AM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth.
Not if you're smart about your rocket design.

To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
You keep saying that, yet satellites need to change their orbits from LEO to geostationary which usually requires several delta-v inputs.

So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.
If they were falsifying their calculations, then we wouldn't have thousands of satellites in orbit right now, wouldt we?

Any satellite is only put into orbit by an external rocket at a certain velocity, direction and altitude. Company Arianespace does it regularly. The satellite can then only change its altitude by a built in rocket e.g. from LEO to GEO and when doing so, its velocity is reduced. Changing altitude requires fuel and it must be carried aboard from lift-off. The satellite cannot start orbiting something else than Earth or stop and land anywhere.
Arianespace has thus put a satellite in a certain orbit around Earth on behalf of the European Space Agency, ESA. Then Arianespace hands over the controls of the satellite to ESA that sends it off to, e.g. an asteroid far away but how it is done ESA cannot say. If you ask ESA = no reply! Reason? The whole thing - the Rosetta mission - is faked. It becomes a show made on Earth.
Same going to the Moon US/NASA style. First you orbit Earth in LEO and then you increase the altitude of that orbit to arrive at the Moon. It is OK. But then? You cannot get out of the orbit around Earth and land on the Moon, bla, bla, bla. One reason is the fuel.
It is why nobody wins my my human space travel Challenge. 
Space travel in orbits is always only one way.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 10:49:48 AM by Heiwa »

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2020, 12:22:40 PM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth. To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.

What are the calculations that show that the expert's calculations are wrong?

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41427
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2020, 03:36:54 PM »
It is why nobody wins my my human space travel Challenge. 
Space travel in orbits is always only one way.
Nobody wins your so called "challenge" because you aren't willing to change your mind about space travel no matter what anyone says.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2020, 07:02:49 PM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth. To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.

What are the calculations that show that the expert's calculations are wrong?
Take the NASA Apollo project going to the Moon as an example. It is suggested that the spacecraft was put in LEO using a very big rocket no longer available. In LEO the spacecraft fired its rocket engine somewhere at a certain time to modify the orbit to arrive close to the Moon. There are no details of location and time for this event, force applied, direction, duration and fuel used, etc. It is suggested all was automatic by some computer but details are not available, so it is difficult to check any calculations. My finding is that the experts just faked it. And look at the asstronuts involved. They could just fly an old jet plane using a stick napalm bombing Korean peasants early 1950's speed say 0.2 km/s.
Anyway, the experts suggest that by increasing velocity in LEO from around 7 to >11 km/s, you will arrive at the Moon after a couple of day at <1 km/s speed, i.e. gravity slows you down all the time during the trip. If you only increase speed to around 10 km/s you will not arrive anywhere anytime. Calculating a trajectory in space, where gravity slows you down all the time, is very difficult. I think it cannot be done. But it was a great Hollywood show!

*

Stash

  • 7332
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2020, 09:36:30 PM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth. To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.

What are the calculations that show that the expert's calculations are wrong?
Take the NASA Apollo project going to the Moon as an example. It is suggested that the spacecraft was put in LEO using a very big rocket no longer available. In LEO the spacecraft fired its rocket engine somewhere at a certain time to modify the orbit to arrive close to the Moon. There are no details of location and time for this event, force applied, direction, duration and fuel used, etc. It is suggested all was automatic by some computer but details are not available, so it is difficult to check any calculations. My finding is that the experts just faked it. And look at the asstronuts involved. They could just fly an old jet plane using a stick napalm bombing Korean peasants early 1950's speed say 0.2 km/s.
Anyway, the experts suggest that by increasing velocity in LEO from around 7 to >11 km/s, you will arrive at the Moon after a couple of day at <1 km/s speed, i.e. gravity slows you down all the time during the trip. If you only increase speed to around 10 km/s you will not arrive anywhere anytime. Calculating a trajectory in space, where gravity slows you down all the time, is very difficult. I think it cannot be done. But it was a great Hollywood show!

Took me all of 5 minutes to find the info you say doesnít exist. And this not at all an exhaustive micro detailed account.

For the 1967 Apollo mission to the moon, Saturn V rocketís first stage carried 203,400 gallons of kerosene fuel and 318,000 gallons of liquid oxygen needed for, totaling over 500,000 gallons of fuel for getting out of the atmosphere alone. The second stage carried another 260,000 gallons of liquid hydrogen and 80,000 gallons of liquid oxygen. The third stage carries 66,700 gallons of liquid hydrogen and 19,359 gallons of liquid oxygen. All told, the rocket that achieved one small step for a man and one giant leap for mankind held just under 950,000 gallons of fuel.

02:44:16: One Loop Around Earth, Then Moon-Bound

After firing and jettisoning two of the Saturn Vís three engines, the spacecraft entered Earthís orbit at nearly 120 miles above the surface. After one swing around the planet, the third-stage J-2 rocket ignited, hurling the Apollo astronauts out of near-Earth orbit and on a trajectory toward the moon.

How do you know the calculations are wrong if you have never done the calculations? That amounts to you just saying they are wrong based upon nothing.

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2020, 11:32:26 PM »
One reason is of course that you cannot carry the fuel with you to modify the orbit of the spacecraft  during the trip.

Why? What's stopping you from carrying fuel?

You get too heavy to start/lift off from Earth. To later change velocity (delta-v) of any spacecraft in high speed orbit requires plenty energy/fuel that cannot be carried.
So all experts of astro-dynamics just falsify their calculations, etc. It has gone of from the beginning in the 1950's. As soon as any spacecraft is in high speed orbit, it cannot ever leave it. No fuel aboard for any manoeuvers.

What are the calculations that show that the expert's calculations are wrong?
Take the NASA Apollo project going to the Moon as an example. It is suggested that the spacecraft was put in LEO using a very big rocket no longer available. In LEO the spacecraft fired its rocket engine somewhere at a certain time to modify the orbit to arrive close to the Moon. There are no details of location and time for this event, force applied, direction, duration and fuel used, etc. It is suggested all was automatic by some computer but details are not available, so it is difficult to check any calculations. My finding is that the experts just faked it. And look at the asstronuts involved. They could just fly an old jet plane using a stick napalm bombing Korean peasants early 1950's speed say 0.2 km/s.
Anyway, the experts suggest that by increasing velocity in LEO from around 7 to >11 km/s, you will arrive at the Moon after a couple of day at <1 km/s speed, i.e. gravity slows you down all the time during the trip. If you only increase speed to around 10 km/s you will not arrive anywhere anytime. Calculating a trajectory in space, where gravity slows you down all the time, is very difficult. I think it cannot be done. But it was a great Hollywood show!

Took me all of 5 minutes to find the info you say doesnít exist. And this not at all an exhaustive micro detailed account.

For the 1967 Apollo mission to the moon, Saturn V rocketís first stage carried 203,400 gallons of kerosene fuel and 318,000 gallons of liquid oxygen needed for, totaling over 500,000 gallons of fuel for getting out of the atmosphere alone. The second stage carried another 260,000 gallons of liquid hydrogen and 80,000 gallons of liquid oxygen. The third stage carries 66,700 gallons of liquid hydrogen and 19,359 gallons of liquid oxygen. All told, the rocket that achieved one small step for a man and one giant leap for mankind held just under 950,000 gallons of fuel.

02:44:16: One Loop Around Earth, Then Moon-Bound

After firing and jettisoning two of the Saturn Vís three engines, the spacecraft entered Earthís orbit at nearly 120 miles above the surface. After one swing around the planet, the third-stage J-2 rocket ignited, hurling the Apollo astronauts out of near-Earth orbit and on a trajectory toward the moon.

How do you know the calculations are wrong if you have never done the calculations? That amounts to you just saying they are wrong based upon nothing.
Thanks, I quote the same info at my website since many years. Of course the Apollo astronuts and their spacecraft were not hurled out of near-Earth orbit but stayed in Earth orbit all the way to the Moon. Only the shape of the orbit was changed by firing a rocket and increasing speed in orbit from say 7 to >11.2 km/s using plenty fuel. A few days later close to the Moon the speed was reduced to <1 km/s. Guess why? Correct - gravity.
Another way to go to the Moon without changing speed is only to vertically increase the altitude of the orbit. It will take much longer but much less fuel is used.
Regardless. On arrival - still in Earth orbit - there is no way to stop and land anywhere on the Moon.
It seems you have no idea about basic space travel.

Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2020, 10:44:26 AM »
Not seeing any calculations here.

Why not?

Tell you what, Iíll give you a million quid if you can prove itís impossible with the correct calculations and stated specifications. 

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2020, 10:38:19 PM »
Not seeing any calculations here.

Why not?

Tell you what, Iíll give you a million quid if you can prove itís impossible with the correct calculations and stated specifications.
Topic is "Orbits. How do they work?"
It seems we all agree that an orbit is a circular or elliptical trajectory around Earth at a certain speed and altitude not to drop down on Earth again. Getting a satellite into orbit from Earth is easy and possible. French company Arianespace does it all the time. You use a rocket that catapults the satellite into the orbit (while the rocket drops back on Earth).
The problem is to get out of such an orbit intact. It is in fact impossible.
Of course there are 'experts' suggesting that you can go from one orbit to another, from e.g. around Earth, then around the Sun and finally start orbiting the Moon (or an assteroid) but such 'experts' do not work at Arianespace. European Space Agency, ESA, are full och such experts. And you can learn about it at the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden, at no cost. The professor says he has himself orbited Earth in a spacecraft many times but ... it is just fantasy. http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm 

Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2020, 12:06:26 AM »
Not seeing any calculations here.

Why not?

Tell you what, I’ll give you a million quid if you can prove it’s impossible with the correct calculations and stated specifications.
Topic is "Orbits. How do they work?"
It seems we all agree that an orbit is a circular or elliptical trajectory around Earth at a certain speed and altitude not to drop down on Earth again. Getting a satellite into orbit from Earth is easy and possible. French company Arianespace does it all the time. You use a rocket that catapults the satellite into the orbit (while the rocket drops back on Earth).
The problem is to get out of such an orbit intact. It is in fact impossible.
Of course there are 'experts' suggesting that you can go from one orbit to another, from e.g. around Earth, then around the Sun and finally start orbiting the Moon (or an assteroid) but such 'experts' do not work at Arianespace. European Space Agency, ESA, are full och such experts. And you can learn about it at the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden, at no cost. The professor says he has himself orbited Earth in a spacecraft many times but ... it is just fantasy. http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm

The topic is your continued insistence that it’s impossible to change a spacecraft’s orbit to put it on a trajectory to another body in the solar system.  As you were so keen to point out earlier, a mod gave it the title so don’t hide behind semantics.

The page on your daft website is just whining that people who teach basic introductory courses don’t answer your phone calls.

Is that the extent of your “research“?  Haha!

You want claim space flight to the moon or other planets is impossible, then prove it.  All the information you need is in the public domain.

Shouldn’t you at least attempt it to try to salvage some integrity?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 12:08:27 AM by Unconvinced »

*

Heiwa

  • 9003
  • I have been around a long time.
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2020, 04:26:33 AM »
Not seeing any calculations here.

Why not?

Tell you what, Iíll give you a million quid if you can prove itís impossible with the correct calculations and stated specifications.
Topic is "Orbits. How do they work?"
It seems we all agree that an orbit is a circular or elliptical trajectory around Earth at a certain speed and altitude not to drop down on Earth again. Getting a satellite into orbit from Earth is easy and possible. French company Arianespace does it all the time. You use a rocket that catapults the satellite into the orbit (while the rocket drops back on Earth).
The problem is to get out of such an orbit intact. It is in fact impossible.
Of course there are 'experts' suggesting that you can go from one orbit to another, from e.g. around Earth, then around the Sun and finally start orbiting the Moon (or an assteroid) but such 'experts' do not work at Arianespace. European Space Agency, ESA, are full och such experts. And you can learn about it at the Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden, at no cost. The professor says he has himself orbited Earth in a spacecraft many times but ... it is just fantasy. http://heiwaco.com/moontravela.htm

The topic is your continued insistence that itís impossible to change a spacecraftís orbit to put it on a trajectory to another body in the solar system.  As you were so keen to point out earlier, a mod gave it the title so donít hide behind semantics.

The page on your daft website is just whining that people who teach basic introductory courses donít answer your phone calls.

Is that the extent of your ďresearchď?  Haha!

You want claim space flight to the moon or other planets is impossible, then prove it.  All the information you need is in the public domain.

Shouldnít you at least attempt it to try to salvage some integrity?

Hm, why should I prove that something is impossible? Shouldn't our 'space travel' experts better describe how to do a trip to the Moon, etc?
Present situation is that we see a rocket with spacecraft lift off from Earth. Then we are told the spacecraft is in circular orbit (around Earth) and that the spacecraft increases speed using its rocket engine to go to the Moon in an elliptic orbit, where it arrives a couple of days later. During the trip in orbit the speed is reduced from 11.2 to <1.0 km/s due to Earth gravity pulling it back. If the trip had continued until the speed was 0, the spacecraft would drop back on Earth again.

But no! Close to the Moon the spacecraft using its rocket engine changes speed and direction and starts suddenly to orbit the Moon! How was it possible? No explanation given. And then the spacecraft stops orbiting the moon lands on the Moon! Fantastic! But how? You orbit a Moon, slow down and land on the Moon! But it is not possible.

And then - on the Moon - you lift off again and start orbiting the Moon. And in Moon orbit you fire your rocket engine again, increase speed, change direction, leave moon orbit and drop straight down on Earth - no orbit!

During the return drop down on Earth your speed increases from 1 to 11.2 km/s due to gravity, when you enter the Earth's atmosphere and you release a parachute and drop into an ocean at 0 speed. Fantastic! But how can you do all these things at the right times and locations in the right directions in space? No 'expert' can answer it. They just say it was done. Evidence? None.

It was a great show! All done in Hollywood!

*

JJA

  • 4213
  • Math is math!
Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2020, 04:33:11 AM »
Not seeing any calculations here.

Why not?

Tell you what, Iíll give you a million quid if you can prove itís impossible with the correct calculations and stated specifications.
Topic is "Orbits. How do they work?"

Watching you constantly dodge this question is almost as amusing as it would be to see you actually try and do the math.