Orbits. How do they work?

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Heiwa

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Orbits. How do they work?
« on: September 16, 2020, 10:18:24 PM »
Much easier is to send a spacecraft to orbit Venus at low altitude. It can then study the Venus atmosphere. It could also have a little 'lifeboat' that could descend and pick up cloud samples full of life, etc.
It is very simple. A rocket takes off from Earth with spacecraft/lifeboat with target Venus. After a certain time - 100 days? - in space the spacecraft arrives at Venus, slows down and ... starts to orbit Venus. Very easy according to 'experts'. You just fire a rocket and you start orbiting Venus. I wonder why nobody does it?
(I didn't start this thread - Heiwa)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:47:04 AM by Heiwa »

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markjo

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2020, 06:47:09 AM »
Much easier is to send a spacecraft to orbit Venus at low altitude. It can then study the Venus atmosphere. It could also have a little 'lifeboat' that could descend and pick up cloud samples full of life, etc.
Orbits within an atmosphere are very difficult to maintain for any significant length of time because of the atmospheric drag.  If you want to obtain atmospheric samples, then you're more likely talking about some sort of aircraft rather than a satellite.
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Heiwa

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2020, 08:44:00 AM »
Much easier is to send a spacecraft to orbit Venus at low altitude. It can then study the Venus atmosphere. It could also have a little 'lifeboat' that could descend and pick up cloud samples full of life, etc.
Orbits within an atmosphere are very difficult to maintain for any significant length of time because of the atmospheric drag.  If you want to obtain atmospheric samples, then you're more likely talking about some sort of aircraft rather than a satellite.

Orbits of course take place in space outside the atmosphere of any planet, incl. Venus. Problem remains how to leave an orbit Earth and start an orbit Venus. Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?

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Stash

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2020, 10:16:09 AM »
Much easier is to send a spacecraft to orbit Venus at low altitude. It can then study the Venus atmosphere. It could also have a little 'lifeboat' that could descend and pick up cloud samples full of life, etc.
Orbits within an atmosphere are very difficult to maintain for any significant length of time because of the atmospheric drag.  If you want to obtain atmospheric samples, then you're more likely talking about some sort of aircraft rather than a satellite.

Orbits of course take place in space outside the atmosphere of any planet, incl. Venus. Problem remains how to leave an orbit Earth and start an orbit Venus. Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?

Why is it not possible?

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markjo

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2020, 01:11:32 PM »
Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?
I suggest that you start here: http://www.scifidoc.com/scitalk/2017/2/18/orbital-mechanics-for-dummies
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2020, 07:01:52 PM »
Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?
I suggest that you start here: http://www.scifidoc.com/scitalk/2017/2/18/orbital-mechanics-for-dummies
Hm, the link is just about changing the shape of an orbit around Earth. It is easy and has been done many times for satellites of all types. No, problem is to stop orbiting around Earth and start orbiting around another planet or star. There is no way to do it!
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 07:09:44 PM by Heiwa »

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markjo

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2020, 07:32:30 PM »
Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?
I suggest that you start here: http://www.scifidoc.com/scitalk/2017/2/18/orbital-mechanics-for-dummies
Hm, the link is just about changing the shape of an orbit around Earth. It is easy and has been done many times for satellites of all types.
Interesting. Haven't you repeatedly claimed that changing the shape of an orbit is impossible?

No, problem is to stop orbiting around Earth and start orbiting around another planet or star. There is no way to do it!
No, you don't stop one orbit and start another.  You change the shape of your orbit so that you orbit something else.  It's roughly equivalent to taking the off ramp from one highway to get onto another highway.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2020, 01:47:56 AM »
Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?
I suggest that you start here: http://www.scifidoc.com/scitalk/2017/2/18/orbital-mechanics-for-dummies
Hm, the link is just about changing the shape of an orbit around Earth. It is easy and has been done many times for satellites of all types.
Interesting. Haven't you repeatedly claimed that changing the shape of an orbit is impossible?

No, problem is to stop orbiting around Earth and start orbiting around another planet or star. There is no way to do it!
No, you don't stop one orbit and start another.  You change the shape of your orbit so that you orbit something else.  It's roughly equivalent to taking the off ramp from one highway to get onto another highway.
No, changing shape of an orbit (around Earth) is easy. Arrianespace company does it all the time. But no objects sent into orbits around Earth cannot ever change trajectory and start orbiting something else, e.g. the Sun, the Moon or other planets. Just check with the NASA astronautics experts.

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sokarul

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2020, 05:52:23 AM »
A rocket orbiting the earth is also orbiting the sun.
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markjo

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2020, 06:36:46 AM »
No, changing shape of an orbit (around Earth) is easy. Arrianespace company does it all the time. But no objects sent into orbits around Earth cannot ever change trajectory and start orbiting something else, e.g. the Sun, the Moon or other planets. Just check with the NASA astronautics experts.
This is a discussion better suited to your million euro "challenge" thread.  Please stop derailing this one.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Heiwa

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2020, 08:08:19 AM »
A rocket orbiting the earth is also orbiting the sun.
No - a rocket orbiting the Earth is not orbiting the Sun. It is the Earth that orbits the Sun at a certain distance (1 AU). Planet Venus also orbits the Sun but at another, smaller distance so Venus and Earth will never meet. But you can see Venus from Earth by looking out of the window at the right location, time and direction. I do it every night! But to send a rocket to Venus is not really possible, as the rocket always orbits Earth and nothing else, when doing it. When in Earth orbit that passes close to Venus, you have to be careful to avoid a collision. You have to understand that you have no possibility to stop in orbit or anywhere in space. Space travel is very simple. Departing/lifting off from Earth you always orbit Earth. Nothing else. An orbit is the gravitationally, curved trajectory of any object, such as the trajectory of a rocket around a planet. When in orbit, you cannot leave it and start orbiting something else.

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Shifter

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2020, 08:10:09 AM »
Lock this threads mods. Heiwa is shitting it up and I dont need to see him in my 'new replies' every day
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boydster

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2020, 08:41:22 AM »
I have a better plan. Now he's got one thread to spam with his misunderstanding of orbital mechanics.

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sokarul

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2020, 08:49:32 AM »
A rocket orbiting the earth is also orbiting the sun.
No - a rocket orbiting the Earth is not orbiting the Sun. It is the Earth that orbits the Sun at a certain distance (1 AU). Planet Venus also orbits the Sun but at another, smaller distance so Venus and Earth will never meet. But you can see Venus from Earth by looking out of the window at the right location, time and direction. I do it every night! But to send a rocket to Venus is not really possible, as the rocket always orbits Earth and nothing else, when doing it. When in Earth orbit that passes close to Venus, you have to be careful to avoid a collision. You have to understand that you have no possibility to stop in orbit or anywhere in space. Space travel is very simple. Departing/lifting off from Earth you always orbit Earth. Nothing else. An orbit is the gravitationally, curved trajectory of any object, such as the trajectory of a rocket around a planet. When in orbit, you cannot leave it and start orbiting something else.
Earth orbits the sun.
Rocket orbits earth.
Rocket dont orbit the sun?

Wat?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 09:33:28 AM by sokarul »
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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2020, 09:22:42 AM »
Yeah.

If the Earth Orbits the sun, by default anything that is on or orbits Earth also orbits the sun.

Rabinoz RIP

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Heiwa

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2020, 10:45:39 AM »
But how can a spacecraft orbiting Earth also orbit the Sun? Gravity does not allow it. I suggest you go back and study the basics.
Please note I didn't start this thread.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 10:49:37 AM by Heiwa »

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boydster

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2020, 11:03:54 AM »
Please note I didn't start this thread.
Oh, but you did, when you decided to drag an entirely different thread off topic.

As far as orbits go, maybe you could explain for everyone here exactly why gravity doesn't allow something orbiting the Earth to also orbit the sun.

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sokarul

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2020, 11:59:25 AM »
But how can a spacecraft orbiting Earth also orbit the Sun? Gravity does not allow it. I suggest you go back and study the basics.
Please note I didn't start this thread.
You are orbiting the sun right now.
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It's no slur if it's fact.

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Shifter

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2020, 12:07:08 PM »
But how can a spacecraft orbiting Earth also orbit the Sun? Gravity does not allow it. I suggest you go back and study the basics.
Please note I didn't start this thread.
You are orbiting the sun right now.

And the galactic core. Pwoah! What a ride!!  8)
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2020, 12:41:59 PM »
WOW, my head is spinning.
Is that like orbiting?

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markjo

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2020, 01:15:47 PM »
WOW, my head is spinning.
Is that like orbiting?
It is for the little birds flying in circles around your head.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JJA

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2020, 02:43:38 PM »
But how can a spacecraft orbiting Earth also orbit the Sun? Gravity does not allow it. I suggest you go back and study the basics.
Please note I didn't start this thread.

How do wheels spin AND move along the road at the same time?

Nobody knows.

What are birds?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2020, 02:55:32 PM »

What are birds?

The reason to own a shotgun. 

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Stash

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2020, 04:33:20 PM »
they still suck . . .


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sokarul

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2020, 05:09:53 PM »
Wrong

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frenat

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Re: Re: Life in the Venusian clouds?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2020, 03:05:51 PM »
Any ideas? I think it is not possible, i.e. you cannot leave one orbit say around Earth and start orbiting something else, say Venus. Isn't basic astronautics?
I suggest that you start here: http://www.scifidoc.com/scitalk/2017/2/18/orbital-mechanics-for-dummies
Hm, the link is just about changing the shape of an orbit around Earth. It is easy and has been done many times for satellites of all types.
Interesting. Haven't you repeatedly claimed that changing the shape of an orbit is impossible?

No, problem is to stop orbiting around Earth and start orbiting around another planet or star. There is no way to do it!
No, you don't stop one orbit and start another.  You change the shape of your orbit so that you orbit something else.  It's roughly equivalent to taking the off ramp from one highway to get onto another highway.
No, changing shape of an orbit (around Earth) is easy. Arrianespace company does it all the time. But no objects sent into orbits around Earth cannot ever change trajectory and start orbiting something else, e.g. the Sun, the Moon or other planets. Just check with the NASA astronautics experts.
Yes, ask astronautics experts. Obviously you haven't.

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Shifter

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2020, 03:22:18 PM »
If you move fast enough, you can go wherever you want. Escaping Earth orbit only requires 11.2km/s

Getting to the sun requires cancelling out Earth's approx 30km/s speed around the sun first though. Not impossible



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Heiwa

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2020, 08:25:21 PM »
If you move fast enough, you can go wherever you want. Escaping Earth orbit only requires 11.2km/s

Getting to the sun requires cancelling out Earth's approx 30km/s speed around the sun first though. Not impossible
If you leave Earth at only 11.2 km/s speed vertically in any direction, your speed will be reduced to <1 km/s speed after a couple of days and soon be 0 and you'll drop back and crash on Earth. It is due to gravity. And you will never start orbiting, e.g. the Sun far away. To orbit Earth at various altitudes you have to depart more horizontally, etc, and you can orbit there for ever ... but never start orbiting anything else.

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Stash

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Re: Orbits. How do they work?
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2020, 09:48:59 PM »
To orbit Earth at various altitudes you have to depart more horizontally, etc, and you can orbit there for ever ... but never start orbiting anything else.

Why not?