What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5490 on: May 31, 2021, 01:23:49 AM »
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Tell me the bit about Earth glow against the moon. Can you?
No I won't. Figure it out for yourself.  You are pretty good at figuring stuff out for yourself remember.

After all so far all by yourself you've managed to figure out what the true shape of the Earth is (or so you believe) instead of all this 'silly globe nonsense' that we are all apparently indoctrinated with.  That's pretty amazing stuff in itself. So working out what causes some Earth glow against the Moon in your mind should be a piece of cake to you.

Have you done my experiment with the ball and a friend yet? It's pretty simple to do and you like simple experiments don't you.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 28350
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5491 on: May 31, 2021, 02:29:04 AM »
Gotten what wrong?

According to you and others on this forum, nearly everything.  The shape of the world dictates a number of directives regarding navigation, communication, and civil engineering (to name a few).  Assuming that the world is not round, we would have problems popping up constantly if that were the case.
Really, tell me how?


Quote from: Gumwars
They navigate using what's available. They have no need to navigate using a spinning globe mindset with a north or south pole.

Incorrect.  Aircraft navigation is one of many activities that assume a round Earth.
 It's been mentioned countless times here and still has not been responded to with any rational answer; Santiago to Sydney.  That flight makes no sense if we assume the Earth is flat. 
How do you know it makes no sense?
You've been told it makes the trip via a spinning globe. That's it. You assume it is a globe and not anything else, so in your eyes the trip can't be made.

You're just arguing from a belief system and an adherence to authority. Also massive appeals to it.


Quote from: Gumwars
Also incorrect that basic land navigation using only a map and compass isn't based on a spinning round Earth:

https://www.uakron.edu/armyrotc/MS1/7.pdf

A quote from page 7:

Quote
Two problems complicate your easy use of a map and compass:
First, the surface of the earth is curved, while the surface of your map is flat. This creates
problems between what your map shows as north (grid north) and what really is north
(true north).
Second, the earth’s magnetic pole is not the same as the earth’s axis. This creates a
difference between what your compass shows as north (magnetic north) and what really
is north (true north).

These are fundamental concepts required to successfully use navigational tools at a basic level.  It's totally understandable that a person, like yourself, never having been placed in a situation where this knowledge becomes critical to your survival earns anything more than a passing glance.  However, there are thousands of people that apply this information daily because their life depends on it.
Most of us have used maps.
Most of us have placed our compasses onto maps to gain a direction given to us to follow.

You have one point to follow and everything else is based off it.



Quote from: Gumwars
A compass points in one direction. Everything else requires setting up to cater for opposites to that direction.
That direction is called north and is set at that with a N pointer. A magnetic flow to the centre.
In your mind it goes to a north or south pole.

Care to provide a source for this?
Physically....nope. No more than you can.



Quote from: Gumwars
The reality is, people follow compasses to land mass from directions set around a circle. Around a circle..Around a circle.

Land masses around a circle.

Again, care to provide a source or reference this?  Perhaps one that explains it a bit better?
It is down to how you interpret it.
Your compass is showing you, what you believe to be, following a global system.
North will make you believe you're off to the north pole at the top of your globe.
Where is east and west from that point?

There aren't any points.

All you would have is an about turn with your compass to supposedly follow the opposite of North, which is the S on your compass.

Only then can you veer off to do, what?
To walk around in a circle.

The compass offers you land mass to landmass but it does not follow a global path.








Quote from: Gumwars
I have no issue with genuine navigation. Understand that.

Genuine navigation is predicated on the shape of the world being an oblong spheroid.
I've never heard that one before.
And you call people for having an alternate to a globe.  ;)

 
Quote from: Gumwars
Military is just a school with guns and loud voices for people who feel the need to do whatever those in power want them to do.

Did you serve?  If you didn't, what would you know about it?  We've butted heads over this in the past and you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  Best to stay on point.
Yeah I spent some time and it is severe indoctrination. You follow orders unconditionally.
If you think you know different then tell me about it.


Quote from: Gumwars
Don't get mixed up with all of real science and real scientists being lumped in with pseudoscientists.

I don't think you are qualified to make this statement with any real assertion of truth.
Qualified?
I have every right to question and disbelieve anything which cannot or will not be proved.
If I ask you if your name is ****** (male name) and you reply with, "no, my name is ******" (girls name) after giving me a mindset of you being male, I can question it and my belief would be, you're male, if you can't/will not prove you are anything other than that.

Does this mean I'm correct? No it doesn't...but it does mean I'm being truthful in how I'm trying to decipher.


Quote from: Gumwars
I have no issue with reality. My issue is being told something is reality and zero genuine proof being provided to show it and being fed CGI and storylines hidden behind secrecy as supposed truth.

This is naked paranoia coming out of you.  You've been provided ample proof and have made the deliberate effort to ignore it.  The notion that there is some elaborate cabal trying to suppress the truth about the shape of the world, which would necessarily change how nearly everything in reality actually works, isn't just ridiculous, it's insane.
The thing is, ample proof does not stand up to reality for me.
I see far too much dodgy stuff and CGI.
If people are clued up then they'd look for it but to do that just once would open up a massive can of worms and no way in hell will those people offer up something like that as a query.
They'd rather make up an excuse as to why it looks CGI....etc.

Are you one of those?



Quote from: Gumwars
  This has been discussed in countless times here; a conspiracy lasting centuries, involving an unknown but significant number of people, all working to hide the truth about what shape the planet it for reasons.
God? Jesus?
Who started that off?


Quote from: Gumwars
  When asked to articulate even the purpose behind why this group would do something like this the responses are equally deranged; devil-worship, money (but never explaning how that works), power, control, the end of days, etc. 
And yet you see it all in everyday life.


Quote from: Gumwars
sceptimatic, this idea that outerspace is all CGI'd, the Apollo missions were faked, and that this is all because some grand conspiracy wants to fool us is classic psychosis.
To your mind being drilled into that set up...of course.
I mean, your world is mapped out for you and you basically unconditionally follow that blueprint.
Anyone going against that grain becomes unstable, nuts, psychotic....a Jekyll and Hyde character....and so on and so on and so on.
Too many people will follow the pied piper for no other reason than, why dare not to follow the masses.

Quote from: Gumwars
There's being taught reality and there's being indoctrinated.

And you'd know the difference?
That's just it, nobody knows the difference until you actually find out snippets of certain teachings to be questionable and/or untrue.
Most people have no need/desire/mindset to question what they deem as, authority, so they go with the flow.
It's much easier to do. Even I know that.


Quote from: Gumwars
Being taught reality can be found to be that when critically analysed. Indoctrination is being expected to just believe what you're told, uncritically.

Then go take an astronomy class and learn how to do the math and recreate the experiments used to validate it for yourself.
What would I be learning?
Mapping lights in the dark skies?
Being told some lights are trillions upon trillions of miles away and are so big they make our sun look like a grain of sand...and blah blah blah...but we can see the light, not as it is but as it was millions of years ago and blah blah blah....and so on.

People just go into amazed reactions. Wow, to think we're seeing that star as it was millions of years ago and it might not exist now.


It honestly beggars believe how people believe this utter garbage.


Quote from: Gumwars
In all of the discussions you've been involved with here, I've never once seen you respond with your own experiments.
I've given plenty out for people to do and its usually met with silence.

Quote from: Gumwars
  If you claim that your conclusions are arrived at through critical analysis, then you'd agree that the best way to test any theory is to try and disprove it.
I have done and so have meny.
Simple water level alone is enough to kill off your global model.

Quote from: Gumwars
Instead all I see you do is come up with weird shit that collapses under the weight of its own absurdity.
No, you don't. You believe it collapses because you along with others, forum back patting your way through it all by coming up with the same answers from your books and internet ideals.


Quote from: Gumwars
Case in point, the Gleason map is false and can be proven false because of the Southern Cross.  That's a wrap and there's nothing that can be done to explain that away.  Sure, you can play word games and claim to not understand the problem, put you're being an ostrich at that point ignoring the issue rather than doing anything approximating critical analysis.
What are you telling me about the gleason map for?



Quote from: Gumwars
If you assert that believing the Earth is round is a form of indoctrination, then what is FE in comparison?
A lot of alternate hypotheses/theories.



Quote from: Gumwars
  I actually agree that RE, at the start, is a form of indoctrination the same as believing the sun will rise tomorrow.
It's not a case of, at the start. If a person believes it all until they get old or die then it's at the start, in the middle and at the end with indoctrination of it.
You're massively included in this up to whatever age you are right now.

Quote from: Gumwars
  It's commonly accepted as being true, without critical analysis, because it's reliable in its capacity to deliver results based on that assumption.
Of course it's commonly accepted as being true.
That's what schooling is. You're tested on your ability to take in what's placed into your mind and you have to regurgitate it to the best of your ability in order to get a certificate, etc.

It's not all bad and life is what it is. We are encouraged to be a herd and not stray from the areas we are indoctrinated within..

Quote from: Gumwars
  Yes, I agree that perhaps more effort should be done at the primary and secondary levels of education to teach kids to not blindly accept something as obvious as what shape the planet is.  Recreating Eratosthenes' experiment would be a good starting point for kids and probably for you too.
Recreating Eratosthenes so called experiment is not going to prove a spinning globe.

Showing reality would do, instead of showing CGI satellites and CGI rockets in space...or models.

If the technology is as good as is made out...show us our reality. Why the need to rely on so called ancient historical figures?

Quote from: Gumwars
A world hasn't got anything wrong.
The people in it that sell pseudoscience as science, are the problem...not real scientists.

For reasons I've previously explained, and you've brought up, the majority of people on Earth are wrong, according to you.
I believe those who think Earth is a spinning globe  are only wrong about their reality. In their minds they are right. In a quiz they'd get marked correct.
If they had to explain it to a group of likeminded people they would be applauded.
And so on.

If I don't believe Earth is a globe then I'm not going to say people who do are correct in their thinking, am I?
Think about it.

Quote from: Gumwars
  Pilots, astronomers, philosophers, doctors, nurses, ship captains and navigators, physicists, chemists, assayers, engineers, nearly everyone in the military, mathematicians, philosophers, and anyone that believes the Earth is round "are the problem."
A problem for what?

Quote from: Gumwars
Not only are they wrong, but those disciplines have been wrong for centuries.  Countless experiments, voyages, and trials are all, according to you, based on bad foundations.
Anything that is and has been passed off as us living on a spinning globe, is wrong, by whatever way the stories were sold and told. In my honest opinion.


Quote from: Gumwars
That depends on what the truth is and it also depends on who wants to argue and criticise if it costs them their job, social standing and even fates a bit worse than that....maybe.

So fear is what keeps this all in check?
With those who likely know the reality....yes, I'd say so.



Quote from: Gumwars
This is what keeps the global conspiracy moving forward, for centuries, with it never once being challenged?
It is challenged but those challenging it are cast off as nuts, like I said.
Who knows how deeper down this is challenged and the outcome of those challenging.

Quote from: Gumwars
  And this doesn't sound the least bit paranoid to you?
Not at all.

It sounds perfectly sensible to be questioning this stuff, especially when answer to questions are met with stories and CGI, plus ridicule.....and so on.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5492 on: May 31, 2021, 04:59:43 AM »
Explain what causes the waxing.
The same thing that causes the waning.
There is no physical waxing or waning.
It is simply the moon travelling along in its orbit, changing the angular separation between the sun and the moon.
This change in angular separation causes a different region to be illuminated.

In the "waxing" section of the orbit, the angular separation is increasing.
In the "waning" section it is the other side, where the angular separation is decreasing.
Can you explain it when it's in daylight?
My explanation in no way appeals to the time of day. So here:
The same thing that causes the waning.
There is no physical waxing or waning.
It is simply the moon travelling along in its orbit, changing the angular separation between the sun and the moon.
This change in angular separation causes a different region to be illuminated.

In the "waxing" section of the orbit, the angular separation is increasing.
In the "waning" section it is the other side, where the angular separation is decreasing.

Can you start answering the simple questions that demonstrate your claims against the RE are pure nonsense?
How far below the tube can an object at 1 mile distance be, in order to still be visible through the tube?
Can you see the base of a tree at 1 mile distance, if the base of the tree is 6 ft below the level of the tube?
Again, what magic prevents us from seeing the RE through a level tube?
Again, what should the tilt be (provide a number with units and math justifying it) for an object 30 km away?
How much of such an object should be hidden at a 30 km distance, if you are standing 2 m above the RE?
What is the level of uncertainty in your measurements of allegedly flat water in your sink, in terms of both angle and change in height?
What is in the region indicated in red? Ground or sky?

Tell me the bit about Earth glow against the moon. Can you?
So you can just ignore it like all the other explanations that have been provided to you?
So you can continue to use it as an excuse to avoid the massive problems with your claims?

I know I'm not living on one so it all comes down to a belief system with people like you.
Yet you only seem to be able to try to prop up that "knowledge" with blatant lies and need to continually avoid things which demonstrate massive problems with your claims about it.

How do you know it makes no sense?
For the commonly promoted FE model, the distance is simply too great for a commercial jet and the route flown is so indirect it isn't funny.

You're just arguing from a belief system and an adherence to authority. Also massive appeals to it.
No, we argue from reality, with evidence and logical thought.
You just argue from a belief system and outright rejection of things consistent with what "authorities" claim.
I'm somewhat surprised you even say Earth exists.

Quote from: Gumwars
The reality is, people follow compasses to land mass from directions set around a circle. Around a circle..Around a circle.
Land masses around a circle.
Again, care to provide a source or reference this?  Perhaps one that explains it a bit better?
It is down to how you interpret it.
So what you are saying is you have no basis at all for what you claim reality is?

North will make you believe you're off to the north pole at the top of your globe.
Where is east and west from that point?
There is no "top" of the globe.
At the north pole every direction is south. At the south pole every direction is north.

The thing is, ample proof does not stand up to reality for me.
No, it doesn't stand up to your beliefs and what you claim to already know.

The only objection you can raise is that it doesn't agree with you.

And yet you see it all in everyday life.
We see people do things for money in everyday life.
What we don't see is people trying to set up a grand conspiracy for no apparent purpose.

Quote from: Gumwars
In all of the discussions you've been involved with here, I've never once seen you respond with your own experiments.
I've given plenty out for people to do and its usually met with silence.
You basically only ever provide claims, no actual data.
And you have been provided plenty of experimental evidence from others that you just reject. You rejecting that evidence does not mean you have only been given silence.

Quote from: Gumwars
  If you claim that your conclusions are arrived at through critical analysis, then you'd agree that the best way to test any theory is to try and disprove it.
I have done and so have meny.
Simple water level alone is enough to kill off your global model.
No, you haven't. You are yet to provide a single thing.
You keep repeating the same pathetic lie of water level, but you cannot justify how water level magically disproves the globe.

Conversely you have provided with strong evidence that water curves.

You believe it collapses
No, we KNOW it collapses because we honestly and logically analyse it, and you continually avoid simple questions and refutations of it because you can't handle it.

If a person believes it all until they get old or die then it's at the start, in the middle and at the end with indoctrination of it.
Or they have thought about it and examined the evidence and found it matches reality.

The only reason you dismiss it as indoctrination is because it doesn't agree with you.

Showing reality would do, instead of showing CGI satellites and CGI rockets in space...or models.
No, it wouldn't, as people like you would just dismiss it as CGI.
Because it doesn't show what you want, you dismiss it as fake.
No amount of evidence provided by others will ever get you to admit you are wrong.

In my honest opinion.
There is nothing honest about your opinion.
You continually repeat the same refuted lies and refuse to actually defend them or even answer trivial questions which expose them.
That shows that your opinion is not honest.

It is challenged but those challenging it are cast off as nuts, like I said.
It is dismissed by them, not really challenged as they can't show a fault with it.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 28350
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5493 on: May 31, 2021, 05:14:43 AM »
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Recreating Eratosthenes' experiment would be a good starting point for kids and probably for you too.
Something along these lines you mean? Literally loads of different (and independent) people doing the same experiment over and over again.

https://eratosthenes.ea.gr/

Of course if Sceptimatic is right then all of this is just part of the 'conspiracy'.
Show me a reality.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 28350
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5494 on: May 31, 2021, 05:17:41 AM »

My explanation in no way appeals to the time of day. So here:

Can you explain why we see the moon in daylight and why we only see a partial moon?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5495 on: May 31, 2021, 06:19:06 AM »
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Show me a reality.
OK which one would you like me to show you?  I've only got a few left because I have lent the others out.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5496 on: May 31, 2021, 07:06:11 AM »
Draw the circle and tell us if you see reality or not.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 08:10:38 AM by Themightykabool »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5497 on: May 31, 2021, 08:07:28 AM »
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Can you explain why we see the moon in daylight and why we only see a partial moon?
That's easy. How would you explain it?

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Gumwars

  • 793
  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5498 on: May 31, 2021, 09:24:32 AM »
Really, tell me how?

Land navigation over distances extending past the horizon requires adjustments for the curvature if you're using a map and compass.  Think military convoy working away from roads.  If we didn't make that conversion, the azimuth shot would drift.  Not a big deal when moving short distances but fairly significant if you're moving a 100 miles.  That fraction of a degree translates to miles off target at the end of the track.  Again, if we didn't knowingly perform those corrections, errors, like not ending up where you planned, would happen with greater frequency.  This same issue would happen to ships making trans-Pacific or Atlantic crossings. 
How do you know it makes no sense?
You've been told it makes the trip via a spinning globe. That's it. You assume it is a globe and not anything else, so in your eyes the trip can't be made.

You're just arguing from a belief system and an adherence to authority. Also massive appeals to it.

If we assume the Gleason map, which is similar to your avatar, then there are problems:



To be clear, I'm not saying anything about what shape the Earth is, only that we know LATAM and Qantas fly this route.  Because this is a real, non-stop flight that takes about 12-14 hours to make, the distance is the problem.  First, the aircraft would need to fly at supersonic speeds to make it in that time and second, using the route we know these aircraft fly, the endurance of the longest flying commercial passenger aircraft in service couldn't fly that distance without refueling at least once.  I'm pointing that out because we know that flights going from Sydney to Santiago do not fly over the US at any point on their route:



Plotting that on the Gleason map creates a route that is nearly 25,000km in length, which exceeds the endurance of even the longest flying commercial aircraft in operation today.

Most of us have used maps.
Most of us have placed our compasses onto maps to gain a direction given to us to follow.

You have one point to follow and everything else is based off it.

You ignored what I said about accounting for curvature when using a map and compass.  Short distances, not a big deal.  Big distances, you need to adjust the track for the curvature.  You can't blindly follow an azimuth and hope to arrive where you want to (map north vs. true north).

Physically....nope. No more than you can.

Are you saying electromagnetism is fake?

It is down to how you interpret it.
Your compass is showing you, what you believe to be, following a global system.
North will make you believe you're off to the north pole at the top of your globe.
Where is east and west from that point?

If I'm facing north, east is to my right and west is to my left.  What are you getting at?

There aren't any points.

This is where you're losing me.  What you're saying doesn't make sense, not even in an abstract way.

All you would have is an about turn with your compass to supposedly follow the opposite of North, which is the S on your compass.

Only then can you veer off to do, what?
To walk around in a circle.

The compass offers you land mass to landmass but it does not follow a global path.

Yeah, this sounds like something you've contrived that may make sense your head, but doesn't follow.  Here's a question that might help me understand what you're saying better; how does a compass work?

I've never heard that one before.
And you call people for having an alternate to a globe.  ;)

The planet isn't a perfect sphere.  Because it's spinning, it does bulge along the plane of rotation.  That feature is more pronounced with gas giants like Saturn, but Earth is similar.  I offered you the most correct description, that's all. 

Yeah I spent some time and it is severe indoctrination. You follow orders unconditionally.
If you think you know different then tell me about it.

You follow lawful orders unconditionally.  I was in for a decade and understood quite well my responsibilities as an NCO.  You follow lawful orders.  As a member of the armed forces, we are Constitution and UCMJ bound to reject unlawful and illegal orders.  I agree, it is full blown indoctrination, and took me as much time as I was in to shake it off. 

Qualified?
I have every right to question and disbelieve anything which cannot or will not be proved.
If I ask you if your name is ****** (male name) and you reply with, "no, my name is ******" (girls name) after giving me a mindset of you being male, I can question it and my belief would be, you're male, if you can't/will not prove you are anything other than that.

Does this mean I'm correct? No it doesn't...but it does mean I'm being truthful in how I'm trying to decipher.

You are always entitled to your opinion, that's not the issue here.  You are not entitled, without qualification, to expect anyone to believe your opinion without proof, evidence, or rational argument.  So, for you to say who is and who isn't a scientist, expert, or whatever, especially because of the off-the-wall stuff you've spouted in the past puts the truth value of those statements in question.  You, based on your history here and with me, aren't qualified to be taken at face value. 

You may believe you're being truthful in how you are approaching the material, but you really aren't.  You reject claims that are supported with evidence, ignore anything you can't make fit into your notion of reality, and redirect when pressed on those points.

Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

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Gumwars

  • 793
  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5499 on: May 31, 2021, 09:25:17 AM »
The thing is, ample proof does not stand up to reality for me.

That's called delusion.  I'm not poking fun, I'm being serious.  It's deluded to perform mental gymnastics with tortured logic in order to maintain your worldview.  Let me put it this way; you believe the Earth is flat.  Rather than critically observe the evidence and allow that analysis lead you to a conclusion, you've assumed what the conclusion is and work backwards from it trying to find only the evidence that supports that end.  You ignore anything that doesn't fit and only latch on to what does. 

I see far too much dodgy stuff and CGI.

Any examples?  And you think the Mercury/Gemini/Apollo missions where CGI too?

If people are clued up then they'd look for it but to do that just once would open up a massive can of worms and no way in hell will those people offer up something like that as a query.
They'd rather make up an excuse as to why it looks CGI....etc.

Are you one of those?

I'm concerned about where deepfake is going; I do believe we're headed to a point where it will become extremely difficult to figure out what's been altered versus what is actually real.  Those worries are more centered on what politicians will do with it going forward.  As for NASA and the other global space programs, no, I'm not worried that those were or are fake.  The lunar program in the 60s should be proof enough; CGI didn't' exist and even the best that Hollywood could create couldn't pull off a stunt like that.  There are numerous individual examples, like the moon dust rooster tails on the rover and the no cut away lunar module ascent to CM that are simply too much for special effects to recreate. 

God? Jesus?
Who started that off?

Yeah, that doesn't exactly fit though.  There are about 4000 different religions on Earth.  I don't see a conspiracy so much as a lot of noise and there are plenty of folks that think all of it is BS.  Secularism is on the rise globally so I don't see your example as apples to apples. 

And yet you see it all in everyday life.

But not in the service of some all encompassing conspiracy.  Bad stuff happens, and not in the defense of an invisible collective trying to hide what the true shape of the planet is.

To your mind being drilled into that set up...of course.

Incorrect.  Seriously, there are facts about Apollo that simply could not have been faked.  From what I gather, the CIA did look at trying to fake it in order to make the USSR look bad, but figured out it would be harder to go that way.  Do you get that?  In the late 50's, it would have been harder to fake it and make it convincing.  The lunar module ascent, for example:



There are no cut aways.  There are no splices.  Understand that in order to have a camera resolve something from out of sight until it is right in front of you would require one hell of a big sound stage, like miles big.  Not to mention you have the moon in the background the whole time.  Do you understand just how massive and complex just this shot would be at a time that the most advanced special effects being used in Hollywood was The Creature from the Black Lagoon??

I mean, your world is mapped out for you and you basically unconditionally follow that blueprint.
Anyone going against that grain becomes unstable, nuts, psychotic....a Jekyll and Hyde character....and so on and so on and so on.
Too many people will follow the pied piper for no other reason than, why dare not to follow the masses.

Being different just for the sake of it isn't noble.  Having a reason to go against the grain that can be articulated, explained, and makes sense is noble.  What you're doing is rejecting anything that doesn't fit your conclusion, and that's why you look foolish.  Your attempt and making everyone else out to be feeble or brainwashed is another facet of your delusion; without it, you aren't special.  Right now, you can assume the role of the keeper of secret knowledge and we, the masses, are gullible fools that accepted without any critical thought what we were told was true.  However, this isn't the truth.  It's your truth but not the truth.

And you'd know the difference?

What logically follows necessarily follows.  Sigma Octantis can't be in more than one place at a time.  I've gone to observatories and looked at the night sky, looked at the phases of Venus, seen the details of the lunar surface, and know that a flight from Sydney, Australia to Santiago, Chile exists and doesn't break the speed of sound getting there on a single load of fuel.  I know that Eratosthenes determined what the circumference of the world was in 160ish BC.  His experiment can be recreated today and returns the same results.  Yeah, I'd say I know the difference. 

Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

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Gumwars

  • 793
  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5500 on: May 31, 2021, 09:25:58 AM »
That's just it, nobody knows the difference until you actually find out snippets of certain teachings to be questionable and/or untrue.
Most people have no need/desire/mindset to question what they deem as, authority, so they go with the flow.
It's much easier to do. Even I know that.

Or, conversely, there are those that reject anything they don't want to believe is true, regardless of what is shown to them.  They go against everything because it makes them feel different, and because of that, special.

What would I be learning?
Mapping lights in the dark skies?
Being told some lights are trillions upon trillions of miles away and are so big they make our sun look like a grain of sand...and blah blah blah...but we can see the light, not as it is but as it was millions of years ago and blah blah blah....and so on.

People just go into amazed reactions. Wow, to think we're seeing that star as it was millions of years ago and it might not exist now.


It honestly beggars believe how people believe this utter garbage.

Well, I'd argue that you'd have quite a bit to learn.  You might even have fun.  That last sentence though, that's where we run into trouble.  Folks spend a decade of their life in academia earning degrees learning about what you deem as "utter garbage".  It makes me think you haven't spent much time in education, discounting so heavily what other people spend their lives dedicating themselves to learning about.  Also, being a man of learning and experiences that you claim to be, isn't it a bit disingenuous to discard without any analysis or review something without ever experiencing it?

I've given plenty out for people to do and its usually met with silence.

Point me to one.  I'll gladly take it on.

I have done and so have meny.
Simple water level alone is enough to kill off your global model.

Not really.  We're back to that whole ignoring anything that challenges your worldview. 



If you want to ignore that, then here's a question for you; I live in California.  If I stand on the beach in Laguna Niguel, I can see Catalina Island on the horizon, however, I can't see the Port of Avalon.  It's completely obscured and no matter how powerful a telescope, binoculars, or other optical enhancing tool I use will bring the Port of Avalon into view.  For reference the Port of Avalon is a harbor on Catalina Island that faces California.  Catalina is about 35 miles off the coast.  What's obstructing my view of the port?

No, you don't. You believe it collapses because you along with others, forum back patting your way through it all by coming up with the same answers from your books and internet ideals.

It collapses bro.  Like hard.  Sometimes we don't even need to try because of how fractured it is.  Simple logic dismantles most of it, like The Southern Cross paradox.  Other times, depending on how convoluted you guys like to spin a particular idea, it takes longer.  Sort of like your weird way of explaining how navigating with a compass works; you're either bad at explaining things or being deliberately vague, which means now I have to try and decipher what you're actually trying to say (if you're trying to say anything at all) before responding.

What are you telling me about the gleason map for?

It's literally your avatar.  One would assume that's the model of FE you believe to be correct.

A lot of alternate hypotheses/theories.

It is a collection of disparate and largely non-inclusive ideas.  The only unifying theme among them is how proponents of it defend those ideas.

It's not a case of, at the start. If a person believes it all until they get old or die then it's at the start, in the middle and at the end with indoctrination of it.
You're massively included in this up to whatever age you are right now.

I disagree.

Of course it's commonly accepted as being true.
That's what schooling is. You're tested on your ability to take in what's placed into your mind and you have to regurgitate it to the best of your ability in order to get a certificate, etc.

It's not all bad and life is what it is. We are encouraged to be a herd and not stray from the areas we are indoctrinated within..

Do you argue with your doctor over health decisions?  Like if your doctor told you that you have high blood pressure and you needed to get a stint or take medication, would you argue with them the same way you do us? 

Recreating Eratosthenes so called experiment is not going to prove a spinning globe.

It proves it isn't flat, for starters.

Showing reality would do, instead of showing CGI satellites and CGI rockets in space...or models.

If the technology is as good as is made out...show us our reality. Why the need to rely on so called ancient historical figures?

Because it proves they got it right way back then!  If we can recreate those experiments, and arrive at the same conclusions, it validates the outcome.  This is peer review!  This is how we find the truth.  If Eratosthenes was wrong, we would have found that out, rather than "accept the indoctrination". 

I believe those who think Earth is a spinning globe  are only wrong about their reality. In their minds they are right. In a quiz they'd get marked correct.
If they had to explain it to a group of likeminded people they would be applauded.
And so on.

You believe.  You feel.  You don't know.  This FE thing is just as baseless as religion.  It's all blind faith.

If I don't believe Earth is a globe then I'm not going to say people who do are correct in their thinking, am I?
Think about it.

You need to be able to prove it.  What you've proven is that you can't accept the truth. 

A problem for what?

All of those disciplines are predicated on the Earth's shape not being flat.


Anything that is and has been passed off as us living on a spinning globe, is wrong, by whatever way the stories were sold and told. In my honest opinion.

And you don't see a problem with that outlook?  That all those tasks, if based on the wrong idea, would have failed at some point?  But here we are, still getting along just fine using systems based on a spinning globe.

With those who likely know the reality....yes, I'd say so.

Paranoia.  Seriously.  This is where it gets very difficult to take you seriously.  The scope and scale of that sort of conspiracy is the very definition of delusion.

It is challenged but those challenging it are cast off as nuts, like I said.
Who knows how deeper down this is challenged and the outcome of those challenging.

Because it is lunacy.  Straight up psychosis.

Not at all.

See above.

It sounds perfectly sensible to be questioning this stuff, especially when answer to questions are met with stories and CGI, plus ridicule.....and so on.

It sounds sensible to you scepti. 
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5501 on: May 31, 2021, 09:38:50 AM »
Quote
What would I be learning?
Mapping lights in the dark skies?
Being told some lights are trillions upon trillions of miles away and are so big they make our sun look like a grain of sand...and blah blah blah...but we can see the light, not as it is but as it was millions of years ago and blah blah blah....and so on.

People just go into amazed reactions. Wow, to think we're seeing that star as it was millions of years ago and it might not exist now.


It honestly beggars believe how people believe this utter garbage.

Ooo big numbers!  Is that all a bit too much for your poor little brain to cope with??  When I look at the stars it doesn't really matter to me how far away they are.  Why should it?

So let me get this straight..  You look out across a stretch of water and it looks to your eyes to be flat right?  And that is enough to 'prove' to you that we are not living on a spinning globe is it?  That's because your eyes are showing you something you believe to be true. You believe the Earth is flat and when you look out across some water, the surface looks (visually at least) flat. So your mind automatically and naturally accepts that as proof.

You have obviously spent a lot of time working your way through an alternative form of reality in which everything is compacted down to a size and form that you can understand.  Perhaps because you find it difficult or impossible to trust anyone who tells you something that you find difficult to understand.  The Sun is a huge ball of plasma with a core temperature of 15 million degrees that has been burning away vast amounts of hydrogen gas every second for billions of years is it?!?! How the hell can all that be true!? I hear you say.  We just seen a yellow disk of light in the sky. It makes much more sense to think of the Sun as some reflection of the core of the Earth doesn't it surely?  We know the Sun is hot because we can feel it so that proves the Earth centre is hot as well right?  How do we know the centre of the Earth is hot then?  It's not as if anyone has ever been there with a thermometer to measure it.

Well perhaps in your reality you have a cupboard in your bedroom which has a false back and leads you through a portal into a hidden and secret world as well?   That's about as believable as your vision of the Sun.  After all in your own reality you can make whatever you want to be true can' you.

Doesn't take much to convince you does it.  You know what they say about simple things.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 03:55:21 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5502 on: May 31, 2021, 03:48:58 PM »
Sceptimatic, I'll take photos of my setup and post them.

At page 184 of a thread titled, "What would change your mind?", I think questioning your agenda is entirely valid at this point. It does seem to be less about you changing mine or anybody else's mind, and more about you defending your belief as being equally justified and as valid.

Let's be clear, I'd like to see you change your mind. You've set a challenge. You represent the flat earth sub-culture, which, you may beg to differ, but in my thinking is a form of a cult. You are unable to fully engage in, enjoy, nor appreciate, the achievements of your fellow man, out of fear of being duped. There is a whole world you have closed your mind off to. In a sense, you're a prisoner of your own thoughts.

I'm not here to poke fun at the circus freak in the cage and let off steam. If I use humor or ridicule, it's to get you to re-evaluate your beliefs with view to changing them.

You have already drawn a line in the sand and stated if you could tap into a live feed from a satellite that shows events in real time, that would change your mind. So, changing your mind is not an impossibility. Your suspension of disbelief will stretch only so far.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5503 on: May 31, 2021, 03:58:51 PM »
You have already drawn a line in the sand and stated if you could tap into a live feed from a satellite that shows events in real time, that would change your mind. So, changing your mind is not an impossibility. Your suspension of disbelief will stretch only so far.

Have you walked past those funny mirrors that can make you look short, fat or freaky? That doesn't represent reality so why would you trust a view high in orbit as the reality?

What if space is weird and surrounding the earth are weird lensing like effects that skew the earth into looking like it's something that it's not?

I'm not saying that's what it is, but I'm also not saying that's what it isn't.

For every 'Aha!' moment, there will always exist in someone's imagination an idea that can knock it down

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5504 on: May 31, 2021, 04:04:40 PM »
Sceptimatic thinks that our insistence that the Earth is a spinning globe and that the stars are enormous but distant suns just like our own Sun beggars belief as he puts it.  So his reaction to our beliefs is much the same as our reaction is towards his beliefs.

That is a common MO of many conspiracy theorists.  They think the same as us but in reverse. So trying to knock their beliefs with evidence is never going to work or have an changing influence on what they believe. Scientific evidence means nothing to them.  I can point out to Sceptimatic that I can measure the tiny little parallax shifts of certain stars using CCD cameras and telescopes and thereby prove to myself that the stars are very different but he will already have his retort ready to dismiss all that because in his reality, what I'm seeing with my own equipment is impossible.  So the fault lies with my equipment and my experiment rather than his beliefs.

@ the end of the day we all have different beliefs.  What harm is caused when two or more people with different beliefs encounter each other? At this level, none whatsoever.  Makes for some interesting (and often entertaining) debate though.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5505 on: June 01, 2021, 01:43:49 AM »
You have already drawn a line in the sand and stated if you could tap into a live feed from a satellite that shows events in real time, that would change your mind. So, changing your mind is not an impossibility. Your suspension of disbelief will stretch only so far.
Or, he stated that because he knew that it wouldn't happen so he wouldn't need to admit he was wrong.

He has made prior claims like that and then went against them.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5506 on: June 01, 2021, 02:34:43 AM »
You have already drawn a line in the sand and stated if you could tap into a live feed from a satellite that shows events in real time, that would change your mind. So, changing your mind is not an impossibility. Your suspension of disbelief will stretch only so far.

Have you walked past those funny mirrors that can make you look short, fat or freaky? That doesn't represent reality so why would you trust a view high in orbit as the reality?

What if space is weird and surrounding the earth are weird lensing like effects that skew the earth into looking like it's something that it's not?

I'm not saying that's what it is, but I'm also not saying that's what it isn't.

For every 'Aha!' moment, there will always exist in someone's imagination an idea that can knock it down

Yeah, those mirrors make me look normal. They distort reality.

Maybe you should be suggesting this what if to the sceptical one?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5507 on: June 01, 2021, 03:02:57 AM »
That is a common MO of many conspiracy theorists.  They think the same as us but in reverse.

Throughout history, there has been many 'conspiracy theories', some almost unbelievable because it would paint the government as criminal and/or murderous - and yet, they have been later found out to be true

Not all conspiracy theorists are whack jobs to laugh at. At the end of the day, our governments history is filled with so much criminality and abuses of it's citizens, it should not look awkward if when they try really hard to reassure you of something, that you should be skeptical

Maybe if the government had a history of trustworthiness it could be different. But they have never been trustworthy. Full of spin, bullshit and coverups at any cost.

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5508 on: June 01, 2021, 03:05:47 AM »

Not gonna lie... That picture looks shitter than the CCP worst photoshop fails



Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

*

Gumwars

  • 793
  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5509 on: June 01, 2021, 06:41:05 AM »
Not gonna lie... That picture looks shitter than the CCP worst photoshop fails

Totally real.  Been across the causeway 4 times.  You need a good camera with a nice lens to zoom into this detail or a good pair of binoculars.  If you look at each of the high tension towers, not one is duplicated, no artifacting around them, no aliasing leftovers.
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5510 on: June 01, 2021, 11:22:56 AM »
Quote
Recreating Eratosthenes so called experiment is not going to prove a spinning globe.
Of course not.  Because you've already proved that to yourself just by looking at a stretch of water right?  Such a shame that all those people wasted their time trying to connect with a famous name and famous experiment in scientific history when instead all they had to do was check in with you to learn the truth.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 03:48:40 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5511 on: June 01, 2021, 04:49:10 PM »

Not gonna lie... That picture looks shitter than the CCP worst photoshop fails




Is that your expert opinion, shifter? It looks shitter than the worst Cpp photoshop fails?

At first glance maybe, but with close examination, definitely not. 

The shadowing on each pilon is slightly different. The water edge on each pilon is slightly different. The metal structures are not uniform. The bolts in each timber are not uniformly centralized. Each individual piece of timber has unique characteristics. The wires hanging down, are at different lengths. Spacing is not uniform or even. Sunlight reflection on the metal struts differs between struts.

It's not photoshop. You would fail miserably as a photoshop judge, Shifter. The photo is authentic. That water is curving.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 04:50:59 PM by Smoke Machine »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5512 on: June 02, 2021, 02:30:53 AM »
It's not photoshop. You would fail miserably as a photoshop judge, Shifter. The photo is authentic. That water is curving.

You'd be surprised how photoshop can manipulate a whole image or a 3D render making a scene as you described

Just like those Chinese guys 'floating' over the background, the bridge looks 'floating' on the water

I'll grant you my language was a bit extreme. It's not 'as bad' as that CCP photo but it's still eyebrow raising

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5513 on: June 02, 2021, 04:23:10 AM »
It's not photoshop. You would fail miserably as a photoshop judge, Shifter. The photo is authentic. That water is curving.

You'd be surprised how photoshop can manipulate a whole image or a 3D render making a scene as you described

Just like those Chinese guys 'floating' over the background, the bridge looks 'floating' on the water

I'll grant you my language was a bit extreme. It's not 'as bad' as that CCP photo but it's still eyebrow raising

Shifter, I didn't even notice that guy is supposed to be floating on the road. He looks like he is standing there normally, because he is. Some person has digitally removed his shadow on the dirt road.

How do other photos of that structure on the water, compare?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5514 on: June 02, 2021, 04:32:52 AM »
Shifter, I didn't even notice that guy is supposed to be floating on the road. He looks like he is standing there normally, because he is.

Hmmm. And we are supposed to take you as a good judge of whats real and fake in a photo?

Tell me what you think of this photo. Real or fake

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5515 on: June 02, 2021, 05:51:44 AM »
Shifter, I didn't even notice that guy is supposed to be floating on the road. He looks like he is standing there normally, because he is.

Hmmm. And we are supposed to take you as a good judge of whats real and fake in a photo?

Tell me what you think of this photo. Real or fake


It's Real..................
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 05:53:24 AM by Smoke Machine »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5516 on: June 02, 2021, 06:07:15 AM »
Shifter, I didn't even notice that guy is supposed to be floating on the road. He looks like he is standing there normally, because he is.

Hmmm. And we are supposed to take you as a good judge of whats real and fake in a photo?

Tell me what you think of this photo. Real or fake


It's Real..................

That's what I thought. The 3 guys have shadows and everything.

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5517 on: June 02, 2021, 06:30:02 AM »
Gotten what wrong?

According to you and others on this forum, nearly everything.  The shape of the world dictates a number of directives regarding navigation, communication, and civil engineering (to name a few).  Assuming that the world is not round, we would have problems popping up constantly if that were the case.
Just one continuous heaping pile of cow dung from this guy.

Navigation has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Communication has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Civil engineering has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5518 on: June 02, 2021, 06:36:14 AM »
Shifter, I didn't even notice that guy is supposed to be floating on the road. He looks like he is standing there normally, because he is.

Hmmm. And we are supposed to take you as a good judge of whats real and fake in a photo?

Tell me what you think of this photo. Real or fake


It's Real..................

That's what I thought. The 3 guys have shadows and everything.


Generate the same photo using 60s tech.

*

Gumwars

  • 793
  • A poke in your eye good sir...
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5519 on: June 02, 2021, 08:44:41 AM »
Gotten what wrong?

According to you and others on this forum, nearly everything.  The shape of the world dictates a number of directives regarding navigation, communication, and civil engineering (to name a few).  Assuming that the world is not round, we would have problems popping up constantly if that were the case.
Just one continuous heaping pile of cow dung from this guy.

Navigation has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Communication has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Civil engineering has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

Look at you trying so hard to pick a fight while not doing anything to prove the garbage you're saying is true.  Your entire post history is the same crap; drive by put downs with no substance, effort, support, or meaning. 

Good luck with that.
Quote from: Carl Sagan
We should endeavor to always keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.