What would change your mind?

I don't know your theory. What is your theory?

And there you go with more games.
It was clear that was just a mistake with the quoting.

But of course, you need a game to play to avoid admitting you have no answer and that you have no explanation.

A mirrored sky doesn't work, so that is yet another failure from you.
Should I add that to the list of questions you keep on avoiding:
How far below the tube can an object at 1 mile distance be, in order to still be visible through the tube?
Can you see the base of a tree at 1 mile distance, if the base of the tree is 6 ft below the level of the tube?
Again, what magic prevents us from seeing the RE through a level tube?
Again, what should the tilt be (provide a number with units and math justifying it) for an object 30 km away?
How much of such an object should be hidden at a 30 km distance, if you are standing 2 m above the RE?
What is the level of uncertainty in your measurements of allegedly flat water in your sink, in terms of both angle and change in height?
What is in the region indicated in red? Ground or sky?

I can assure you there are North and South Celestial poles.  Different and distinct from one another. 

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

All the rest as simply reflected all over from the centre.

Quote

You get one central light, that's it.

That's what you want to believe to support your model but unfortunately it is not true according to the real world.

You have no clue what the real world is and nor do I.
I can only guess what it might well be but I can absolutely state what it is not. It's not a spinning globe, so, if you believe in a spinning globe then your world is nothing more than a story that you follow, even though it's odd as all hell to you.
And yes, I firmly believe many things are odd as hell but you are willing to overlook that because you do not wish to go against the grain.
That's my opinion on you and others.
No need to argue this as I won't change my stance on it in it's present state.

Here are star chart showing the North and South celestial poles.

There isn't north and south poles like you think. IMO.

  Notice that the positions of the stars are completely different and in the SCP chart Polaris is nowhere to be seen.

Points of light will always be different depending on where you are on Earth.

Nor is the entire constellation of Ursa Major in the SCP chart nor Crux (southern cross) in the NCP chart.  So hardly a mirror!
https://img1.etsystatic.com/002/0/5663576/il_570xN.407038111_10xg.jpg

The mirror depends on what and where the points of light are to the person viewing.
Not everyone will see a mirror image. They will go from one point to another and see a flipped image.

When you polar align an equatorial mount in the southern hemisphere you have to use a completely different method to the north because Polaris is not visible.

So therefore you align it to whatever else you want...right?
So what does that show?

To be a valid or viable alternative model, yours would have to account for this and up to now it seems like it can't.

Account for what, exactly?

Here is a timed exposure of the SCP.  Notice the complete lack of a bright star (Polaris) at the central point of the arcs (the SCP).

Maybe because your not near that central point of light.

  Also note the small cloud like patches at the top (LMC) and right (SMC) of the image.  These are the Magellanic Clouds which are not visible at all from northern latitudes.

https://live.staticflickr.com/8521/8460248688_012077185b_b.jpg

Like I said earlier. It depends on where a person is on Earth which will determine what they see.
It's just not on a spinning globe that you believe.

- Your carbonite planetarium projector sits at the center of flat earth which is due north for everyone, right?
 What we would consider as the north pole star, right?

Yep, the central point of light.

- So the carbonite planetarium projector shoots straight up to the center of the dome a holographic image of what we call "Polaris", right?

Sort of, yes. By sort of, it depends on what you're classing as a holographic image concerning this point of light.

All of the other carbonite planetarium projected holographic stars circle around that, right?

I'd more call it moving over and around. A sort of falling hula hoop.

- Where on the dome is the carbonite planetarium projected holographic image of Sigma Octantis that all of the southern hemiplane projected holographic stars circle around going the opposite way?

Right next to it, sort of.

Yeah, these things were awesome, still are:



I guess Carl Zeiss was all wrong and went overboard by crafting the second unneeded superfluous hemisphere.

Imagine how big scepti's cabonite crystalline holographic projector must be to blanket an earth-sized breathing icy dome with all of the stars and planets and such we can see. I bet you can see the contraption from space it's so huge.

All your so called stars and so called planets are simply small dots in the sky that you think are humongous.

A tiny projector can fill an entire ceiling. Think about that.

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

Quote from: Themightykabool on May 26, 2021, 01:13:37 AM

Draw the circle

Why do you want me to draw a circle?

No games played at all.

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

So how can you have different star patterns if there is only one central point of light?  What you are claiming is just like saying that whenever I look in the mirror I don't see a reversed image of myself but a completely different face!

There isn't north and south poles like you think. IMO.

Right well I can tell you as much as 'your opinion' might have you believe that there are.  Photos prove it and so would the testimony of every amateur astronomer or indeed professional astronomer who lives south of the equator.  It is not a case of thinking on my part but rather cold hard fact.

So therefore you align it to whatever else you want...right?
So what does that show?

No.. not right.   Far from it in fact. 

The mirror depends on what and where the points of light are to the person viewing.
Not everyone will see a mirror image. They will go from one point to another and see a flipped image.

Comments like these prove - nothing else that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  Probably no actual interest either. 

Points of light will always be different depending on where you are on Earth.

Yes and those 'points of light in the sky' can actually reveal quite a bit of information to those who take the time and trouble to look for it.  Information which you would ignore and deny because it doesn't comply with your belief system.

Quote from: JackBlack on May 26, 2021, 04:20:41 AM

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

That's literally all you do.

Looks like you could hit the 200 mark on this one.  Will that be your highest?

Quote

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

So how can you have different star patterns if there is only one central point of light?  What you are claiming is just like saying that whenever I look in the mirror I don't see a reversed image of myself but a completely different face!

You're simply thinking of looking into a simple mirror.
You're forgetting there's a dome and you're forgetting that a dome will show different reflections from different areas and then none from others.
You can't or won't get your head around it because you think they're light year stars around a so called spinning ball

Quote

There isn't north and south poles like you think. IMO.

Right well I can tell you as much as 'your opinion' might have you believe that there are.  Photos prove it and so would the testimony of every amateur astronomer or indeed professional astronomer who lives south of the equator.  It is not a case of thinking on my part but rather cold hard fact.

Photos prove what exactly?

Quote

So therefore you align it to whatever else you want...right?
So what does that show?

No.. not right.   Far from it in fact.

I'm all ears. I mean, eyes.
Nice and simple, tell me.

 

Quote

The mirror depends on what and where the points of light are to the person viewing.
Not everyone will see a mirror image. They will go from one point to another and see a flipped image.

Comments like these prove - nothing else that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  Probably no actual interest either. 

It's comments like this that tell me you have no interest and also have no clue about my theory and are just happy to reject anything that isn't global minded.
You live out of books and think it's all real world.

Quote

Points of light will always be different depending on where you are on Earth.

Yes and those 'points of light in the sky' can actually reveal quite a bit of information to those who take the time and trouble to look for it.  Information which you would ignore and deny because it doesn't comply with your belief system.

What information can they reveal?

You throw away logic for silly stories.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 05:00:54 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on May 26, 2021, 04:20:41 AM

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

That's literally all you do.

Looks like you could hit the 200 mark on this one.  Will that be your highest?

Anything to add?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 26, 2021, 07:09:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 05:00:54 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on May 26, 2021, 04:20:41 AM

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

That's literally all you do.

Looks like you could hit the 200 mark on this one.  Will that be your highest?

Anything to add?

To what?

So, is this your longest thread yet?

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 26, 2021, 07:09:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 05:00:54 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on May 26, 2021, 04:20:41 AM

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

That's literally all you do.

Looks like you could hit the 200 mark on this one.  Will that be your highest?

Anything to add?

Draw the circle.
Whats the tilt?

To what?

So, is this your longest thread yet?

It's not my thread.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 07:19:34 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 26, 2021, 07:09:34 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 05:00:54 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on May 26, 2021, 04:20:41 AM

And there you go with more games.

Then don't play them.

That's literally all you do.

Looks like you could hit the 200 mark on this one.  Will that be your highest?

Anything to add?

Draw the circle.
Whats the tilt?

How big should I draw it, bearing in mind it has to fit on the forum.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 26, 2021, 08:08:13 AM

To what?

So, is this your longest thread yet?

It's not my thread.

Oh, don't be so modest.  It doesn't matter who started it, it became a scepti thread long ago.

Quote from: Solarwind on May 26, 2021, 05:38:09 AM

Quote

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

So how can you have different star patterns if there is only one central point of light?  What you are claiming is just like saying that whenever I look in the mirror I don't see a reversed image of myself but a completely different face!

You're simply thinking of looking into a simple mirror.
You're forgetting there's a dome and you're forgetting that a dome will show different reflections from different areas and then none from others.
You can't or won't get your head around it because you think they're light year stars around a so called spinning ball


You throw away logic for silly stories.

so simple
yes light goes up, hits surface, bounces back down.
simple
mirrors

triangulate where the source is.
point to its general location on the mercator map.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 08:11:56 AM

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on May 26, 2021, 08:08:13 AM

To what?

So, is this your longest thread yet?

It's not my thread.

Oh, don't be so modest.  It doesn't matter who started it, it became a scepti thread long ago.

It's anyone's thread. It's about what would change our minds, which is still open to anyone.


I've already answered what would change mine.

The rest of it is people asking me stuff and name calling and all the rest of it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on May 26, 2021, 07:18:16 AM

Quote from: Solarwind on May 26, 2021, 05:38:09 AM

Quote

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

So how can you have different star patterns if there is only one central point of light?  What you are claiming is just like saying that whenever I look in the mirror I don't see a reversed image of myself but a completely different face!

You're simply thinking of looking into a simple mirror.
You're forgetting there's a dome and you're forgetting that a dome will show different reflections from different areas and then none from others.
You can't or won't get your head around it because you think they're light year stars around a so called spinning ball


You throw away logic for silly stories.

so simple
yes light goes up, hits surface, bounces back down.
simple
mirrors

triangulate where the source is.
point to its general location on the mercator map.

You can't triangulate where the origin is.

Amazing

Why not?

You know how mirrors work?

Are you saying mirrors dont work?

Quote from: Stash on May 26, 2021, 03:47:04 AM

- Your carbonite planetarium projector sits at the center of flat earth which is due north for everyone, right?
 What we would consider as the north pole star, right?

Yep, the central point of light.

Yes, agreed. Polaris is a single point of light.

Quote from: Stash

- So the carbonite planetarium projector shoots straight up to the center of the dome a holographic image of what we call "Polaris", right?

Sort of, yes. By sort of, it depends on what you're classing as a holographic image concerning this point of light.

I don't know what you mean by "classing". What I mean is that the carbonite planetarium projector projects a holographic image of Polaris straight up from the center of the flat earth which means it's projected onto the center of the dome high above, right?

Quote from: Stash

All of the other carbonite planetarium projected holographic stars circle around that, right?

I'd more call it moving over and around. A sort of falling hula hoop.

I don't know what you mean by "moving over" & "falling hula hoop", but in the observation of reality, they circle around Polaris. That's simply what we see. It's not something we were indoctrinated into believing, it just is. You can see for yourself.

Quote from: Stash

- Where on the dome is the carbonite planetarium projected holographic image of Sigma Octantis that all of the southern hemiplane projected holographic stars circle around going the opposite way?

Right next to it, sort of.

Here's where things get interesting, perhaps sticky. It can't be right next to it, not even sort of, whatever you mean by that. Because, as observed my millions of humans for 10's of thousands of years, Polaris and Sig Oct (or more visible, the Crux) are 180 degrees apart by a very, very, long way.
If you're standing on the equator facing due north you can see Polaris just above the horizon. You have to turn 180 degrees to face the opposite way and you can see Sig Oct (barely, more likely the Crux) basically due south, just above the horizon as well.

So there is no way Sig Oct is even remotely near Polaris on the dome.

The other problem is, when standing on the equator, as mentioned a second ago, you can always see Polaris looking due north. However, on a flat earth, if I turn around to look for the Crux due south, which direction am I actually physically looking? Because on a flat earth due south is essentially the entire perimeter of earth. You following? If you're not, I can whip up a picture to show you what I'm saying.

If you are following, how does that work with the carbonite planetarium projector?

Amazing

Why not?

You know how mirrors work?

Are you saying mirrors dont work?

Mirrors work fine.
What's your issue?

Here's where things get interesting, perhaps sticky. It can't be right next to it, not even sort of, whatever you mean by that. Because, as observed my millions of humans for 10's of thousands of years, Polaris and Sig Oct (or more visible, the Crux) are 180 degrees apart by a very, very, long way.
If you're standing on the equator facing due north you can see Polaris just above the horizon. You have to turn 180 degrees to face the opposite way and you can see Sig Oct (barely, more likely the Crux) basically due south, just above the horizon as well.

So there is no way Sig Oct is even remotely near Polaris on the dome.

The other problem is, when standing on the equator, as mentioned a second ago, you can always see Polaris looking due north. However, on a flat earth, if I turn around to look for the Crux due south, which direction am I actually physically looking? Because on a flat earth due south is essentially the entire perimeter of earth. You following? If you're not, I can whip up a picture to show you what I'm saying.

If you are following, how does that work with the carbonite planetarium projector?

Let's see what you mean.

Quote from: Stash on May 26, 2021, 09:10:55 AM

Here's where things get interesting, perhaps sticky. It can't be right next to it, not even sort of, whatever you mean by that. Because, as observed my millions of humans for 10's of thousands of years, Polaris and Sig Oct (or more visible, the Crux) are 180 degrees apart by a very, very, long way.
If you're standing on the equator facing due north you can see Polaris just above the horizon. You have to turn 180 degrees to face the opposite way and you can see Sig Oct (barely, more likely the Crux) basically due south, just above the horizon as well.

So there is no way Sig Oct is even remotely near Polaris on the dome.

The other problem is, when standing on the equator, as mentioned a second ago, you can always see Polaris looking due north. However, on a flat earth, if I turn around to look for the Crux due south, which direction am I actually physically looking? Because on a flat earth due south is essentially the entire perimeter of earth. You following? If you're not, I can whip up a picture to show you what I'm saying.

If you are following, how does that work with the carbonite planetarium projector?

Let's see what you mean.

I'm on it. In the mean time while I'm making graphics for you that you shouldn't need, how about answering the other questions?

Quote from: Stash on May 26, 2021, 09:10:55 AM

Here's where things get interesting, perhaps sticky. It can't be right next to it, not even sort of, whatever you mean by that. Because, as observed my millions of humans for 10's of thousands of years, Polaris and Sig Oct (or more visible, the Crux) are 180 degrees apart by a very, very, long way.
If you're standing on the equator facing due north you can see Polaris just above the horizon. You have to turn 180 degrees to face the opposite way and you can see Sig Oct (barely, more likely the Crux) basically due south, just above the horizon as well.

So there is no way Sig Oct is even remotely near Polaris on the dome.

The other problem is, when standing on the equator, as mentioned a second ago, you can always see Polaris looking due north. However, on a flat earth, if I turn around to look for the Crux due south, which direction am I actually physically looking? Because on a flat earth due south is essentially the entire perimeter of earth. You following? If you're not, I can whip up a picture to show you what I'm saying.

If you are following, how does that work with the carbonite planetarium projector?

Let's see what you mean.

It's a pretty simple question.  Where is Sigma Octantis?  Where is the Southern Cross if I look south and the Earth is flat?  Is it due south?  But how can it be due south if the south pole is a ring that encircles the flat Earth?

Sceptimatic what I admire most about you is your imagination.  It's utterly brilliant. And I have to say quite unique, and I'm beginning to think entirely deliberate.  You are experimenting to find out just how far you can take things along the path of complete fantasy and still have people replying to you as if you are serious.

If anyone takes the time (and I guess we are all guilty of this) to read back through your posts they will see how your ideas and 'beliefs' change almost day by day. Not least because most of the things you claim are real and true are in fact so obviously false and untrue.  I never thought I would ever come across a discussion among grown adults about what you can or can't see through a simple tube. Wow we must all be suffering with our mental health more than we realise.

I could get really offended by your disparaging comments about astronomy but how can I when I actually find them quite fun and amusing to read. Typical comments made by someone who thinks they know the truth but actually haven't got the first clue about reality. I have spent many years working with kids your comments are not unlike the more indignant ones I get from them.

What information can you get from the stars?  Well the answer is a lot.  As the astronomers from the 1850s started to discover when spectroscopy was first developed.  I could write a book on it but since many books on the subject have already been published, you have every opportunity to read them.  If you so chose to which I know you won't.

Quote from: Themightykabool on May 26, 2021, 08:52:11 AM

Amazing

Why not?

You know how mirrors work?

Are you saying mirrors dont work?

Mirrors work fine.
What's your issue?

great
so light from a source travels more or less straight, hits a surface, reflects back to the viewer.

trace it back.
where's the source?

Sceptimatic what I admire most about you is your imagination.  It's utterly brilliant. And I have to say quite unique, and I'm beginning to think entirely deliberate.  You are experimenting to find out just how far you can take things along the path of complete fantasy and still have people replying to you as if you are serious.

If anyone takes the time (and I guess we are all guilty of this) to read back through your posts they will see how your ideas and 'beliefs' change almost day by day. Not least because most of the things you claim are real and true are in fact so obviously false and untrue.  I never thought I would ever come across a discussion among grown adults about what you can or can't see through a simple tube. Wow we must all be suffering with our mental health more than we realise.

I could get really offended by your disparaging comments about astronomy but how can I when I actually find them quite fun and amusing to read. Typical comments made by someone who thinks they know the truth but actually haven't got the first clue about reality. I have spent many years working with kids your comments are not unlike the more indignant ones I get from them.

What information can you get from the stars?  Well the answer is a lot.  As the astronomers from the 1850s started to discover when spectroscopy was first developed.  I could write a book on it but since many books on the subject have already been published, you have every opportunity to read them.  If you so chose to which I know you won't.

Anyone of us could be sceptimatic. If we were on a debating team, and this week are told, "right, you're debating that the earth is flat, that is your objective." Sceptimatic has taken it to the next next next next level.

He's thrown down his sword and said, if I can prove to myself a satellite is real, I'll concede the earth is a globe. Yet, people are still hammering him about toilet tubes and circles.

I proved the earth was a globe yet again, to my daughter yesterday, while watching the eclipse. Proving it's a globe is like the easiest feat in the world.

Then don't play them.

You are the one playing. I'm calling you out on it.
If you weren't playing games you would address the questions which show your claims are pure BS:
How far below the tube can an object at 1 mile distance be, in order to still be visible through the tube?
Can you see the base of a tree at 1 mile distance, if the base of the tree is 6 ft below the level of the tube?
Again, what magic prevents us from seeing the RE through a level tube?
Again, what should the tilt be (provide a number with units and math justifying it) for an object 30 km away?
How much of such an object should be hidden at a 30 km distance, if you are standing 2 m above the RE?
What is the level of uncertainty in your measurements of allegedly flat water in your sink, in terms of both angle and change in height?
What is in the region indicated in red? Ground or sky?

Course they're different. It's because there's only one central point of light.

So they aren't just mirrors of each other?

I can only guess what it might well be but I can absolutely state what it is not. It's not a spinning globe

While technically you can state anything, by your own admission you have no idea what Earth is, and you can provide nothing to refute the globe.
So you cannot honestly state that Earth is not a spinning globe.

Quote from: Solarwind

Here are star chart showing the North and South celestial poles.

There isn't north and south poles like you think. IMO.

Your opinion has no bearing on reality.
The simple fact is that we can observe 2 celestial poles, one in the north and one in the south, always 180 degrees apart. For most locations 1 of the poles will be below the horizon, but we can still determine the direction to it, and the other pole will be visible.

So the issue is how you can account for that.
Appealing to a mirror does not account for it as the stars (or points of light as you want to pretend) are quite different in the north and the south.

The mirror depends on what and where the points of light are to the person viewing.
Not everyone will see a mirror image. They will go from one point to another and see a flipped image.

The point is it is not a mirror image at all.
The 2 celestial poles are quite different.
It is like you are claiming that a photo of a cat is just a mirrored image of a photo of an elephant.

Account for what, exactly?

The existence of 2 celestial poles, 180 degrees apart, which are fundamentally distinct and thus not simply mirror images of each other, where the 2 poles can be connected via a straight line, with that line at an angle relative to Earth's surface, with that angle varying depending on latitude.

Quote from: Solarwind

Here is a timed exposure of the SCP.  Notice the complete lack of a bright star (Polaris) at the central point of the arcs (the SCP).

Maybe because your not near that central point of light.

If that was going to be it the southern sky would just be a darker version of the northern sky.
It also makes no sense, as there is no significant change in the apparent brightness of Polaris in the northern hemisphere.

Like I said earlier. It depends on where a person is on Earth which will determine what they see.

Which in no way actually explains why what you claim is a mirror image is so fundamentally different.

You're simply thinking of looking into a simple mirror.

While different shaped mirrors will introduce distortions, they will not fundamentally change the image. Especially not something as simple as a dome.

You throw away logic for silly stories.

No, that would be you.

I've already answered what would change mine.

By blatantly lying about what you would expect on the RE, and then when provided with photographic evidence of something close to what you claimed, you just dismissed it as fake.

Why not be honest and admit NOTHING will change your mind.
That even if you were presented with irrefutable proof that the world is a spinning globe, you would reject it because it doesn't fit your beliefs?

Anyone of us could be sceptimatic. If we were on a debating team, and this week are told, "right, you're debating that the earth is flat, that is your objective." Sceptimatic has taken it to the next next next next level.

Only if we decide to become extremely dishonest and ignore everything that shows we are wrong.
That would almost certainly resulting in losing the debate. So what's the point?

He's thrown down his sword and said

Previously he has said all sorts of things which were shown to be a blatant lie. There is no reason to think this is any different.
What he has really done is picked he knows that all of us likely will not be capable of doing, and tried to use that pretend his position is rational and justified.
It is just another case of dishonestly setting up a near impossible standard to pretend his nonsense is justified.

It is also no where near as simple as you stated.
To more accurately state it, he has said that if you give him control of a satellite, which lets him look wherever he wants, being able to see Earth as a globe, and zoom in to easily see something on the surface, he would accept Earth is a globe.

So yes, given that he is trying to use something completely impossible for the average person to achieve, people are still "hammering" him about his blatant lies to pretend reality does not match the RE.
If he was honest he would concede that he has repeatedly misrepresented the globe before moving on to the next impossible claim.

Proving it's a globe is like the easiest feat in the world.

Proving it to yourself is quite easy.
Proving it to someone who has no interest in ever accepting any proof that shows they are wrong, and actually getting them to accept it, is quite a different story.
If you think it is easy, why don't you try proving it to him and see how well you go?
Maybe you can get him control of that satellite he has always wanted?

Hes yet to DISprove the ball earth.

Draw the circle.