What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4230 on: April 07, 2021, 09:50:50 AM »


You're right that I don't understand, gonna need more sponge mirror atmosphere density compression to make this one work. It's gotta be magnets? air


Not atmospherically tight.
Everything has porosity.
It's just a case of which molecular structure can penetrate.
This is the key.



But the tree is upside down.

Not flying trees, at all.
It's up to you if you want to put a tree upside down but that's not what you observe. And this is key.



although this particular diagram is incorrect, as a joke, the "captured" image is going to be inverted.
your brain flips it.
wel...normal people with normal brains have it flipped.




https://io9.gizmodo.com/does-your-brain-really-have-the-power-to-see-the-world-5905180


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4231 on: April 07, 2021, 11:16:15 AM »
your brain must be on loop and reached the limits of its AI programming.

these are my words as noted by my awesome typos.
what part of words are confusing you?

you seem very easily confused
you must be a complete moron.

Quote
Your eyeball is a pinhole camera
The closer the objext the large the angles and resulting area on the back surface = far tree looks small
Can you explain the pinhole camera in your own words.

Just explain why it happens due to this pinhole camera eye ball.

Its explained and reason has been given.
What do you fail to understand about its basic concept?
Are you of the position that they dont work?
You threw it out so at least explain what exactly is supposed to be happening.


You keeo takking about compressing views over distance.
The pinhole is jow to represent this wih an accurate and dimensionably scalable diagram as dvident by my very bereft description with experimentally useful reproducible diagram.

Unlike your word salad and lack of diagram
My diagram shows how close tree looks big-far tree lokks small, and jigsaws woth kackBs angular-distance graph and bored (correct) tree tu-tube drawing.
Clearly communicated as evident by everyone understanding it.... everyone.
Even the one wackadoodle who is faking it and curewntly dodging any acknowledgment of it because he must dismiss it because he cant bring up a valid point to argue it.
It must be dodged and dismissed or he must accept his tutube premise is wrong.



TLDR
Its a pinhole.
It explains how your eye works.
It shows field of view and debunks your tu-tube.
If it's a pinhole, do you accept that the image seen through it has to be compressed?


the "image" yes, not the tree, and not the field of view.

do YOU accept the tree is still the same size and the representation of the diagram shows a full sized tree, at distance XX, and the light rays being the arrowed lines, and the gap between the arrowed is the "field of view"?
The tree is naturally the same size in it's own physical form. Why even argue that.

What I saying is, it is compressed to your vision over distance.
That's all I've been saying, so what's the issue?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4232 on: April 07, 2021, 02:43:12 PM »
It's you that's twisting stuff, not me.
No, it is entirely you.

You wanted to claim we can't see the horizon for a RE.
As part of that, you wanted to pretend we cannot see anything below level, and repeatedly asserted that if you look through a level tube you can't see the ground because it is below the tube.

Your argument, and even the stance you have just made, requires that to be an absolute; that if something is below the tube, regardless of how far below, YOU CANNOT SEE IT!
As soon as you don't have that absolute, and instead your ability to see the object depends upon how far away it is and how far below the tube it is, then your argument fails.
That is because you can then have the ground get far enough away, but not too far below, such that it is visible, and thus your ability to see it depends upon your FOV, and the factors of the ground.


I stated my stance with the level sight from a tube over a gradient.
I've yet to see a legitimate rebuttal.
Because you choose to ignore these rebuttal and continually twist and spout garbage.

All it takes to rebut that claim is this simple diagram:

This diagram, clearly shows that your ability to see such a downwards gradient through a level tube depends upon the FOV of that tube and the gradient.

Like I said, the only way you can pretend this doesn't apply is if you claim that you don't have a FOV, and that you cannot see anything below the tube.

So because you cannot honestly justify your argument you continually twist and turn.
You pretend that you can't see anything at all below the tube, appealing to a magical tunnel vision, even entirely accepting a diagram which in no way depicts reality. But then when it comes to looking at a distant object, that claim comes back to bite you in the arse, where in order to be consistent you would need to claim that if you look through a distant object, like a tree, through a 1 inch tube you only see 1 inch of the object. But because that is so obviously BS, you need to twist and turn to pretend that it is now magically compressed, effectively that you CAN see objects below the tube and thus that your argument is pure garbage.

Rather than accept that you are wrong, and that to try to defend your indefensible position you need to contradict yourself, you just want to try to keep the 2 issues separate so you can pretend there is no problem and likewise you refuse to address extremely simple question which show this contradiction.

The tree is naturally the same size in it's own physical form. Why even argue that.
Because that is key to your contradiction.
By accepting that the tree is the same physical size, it means accepting that a side view is something like this:


The light comes from the bottom of the tree, travels in a straight line, and enters the tube (for the distant tree).
This means the light from below the level of the tube can get into the tube and reach your eye.
That means the light from objects like the ground, can still go into the tube and reach your eye, even if it is below the tube.
This means you can see the ground even if it is below the tube.

It means you either have this side view, where you show things with their actual size and light travels in a straight line:


Or you have this side view, where you show things as their "compressed" size for a particular viewer:

Either way, YOU CAN SEE THE GROUND! and that means your claim is wrong.

Your problem is that you want to pretend the tree is compressed, but that the distance between the "eye-level" and the ground isn't, which would require a floating tree.

Now stop with all the twisting and put your 2 jigsaw pieces together.
Either accept we can see things below the level of the tube, including the ground; or claim we can only see 1 inch of the tree, and the rest is either above or below the level of the tube and thus not visible.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 02:45:27 PM by JackBlack »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4233 on: April 07, 2021, 04:53:14 PM »
your brain must be on loop and reached the limits of its AI programming.

these are my words as noted by my awesome typos.
what part of words are confusing you?

you seem very easily confused
you must be a complete moron.

Quote
Your eyeball is a pinhole camera
The closer the objext the large the angles and resulting area on the back surface = far tree looks small
Can you explain the pinhole camera in your own words.

Just explain why it happens due to this pinhole camera eye ball.

Its explained and reason has been given.
What do you fail to understand about its basic concept?
Are you of the position that they dont work?
You threw it out so at least explain what exactly is supposed to be happening.


You keeo takking about compressing views over distance.
The pinhole is jow to represent this wih an accurate and dimensionably scalable diagram as dvident by my very bereft description with experimentally useful reproducible diagram.

Unlike your word salad and lack of diagram
My diagram shows how close tree looks big-far tree lokks small, and jigsaws woth kackBs angular-distance graph and bored (correct) tree tu-tube drawing.
Clearly communicated as evident by everyone understanding it.... everyone.
Even the one wackadoodle who is faking it and curewntly dodging any acknowledgment of it because he must dismiss it because he cant bring up a valid point to argue it.
It must be dodged and dismissed or he must accept his tutube premise is wrong.



TLDR
Its a pinhole.
It explains how your eye works.
It shows field of view and debunks your tu-tube.
If it's a pinhole, do you accept that the image seen through it has to be compressed?


the "image" yes, not the tree, and not the field of view.

do YOU accept the tree is still the same size and the representation of the diagram shows a full sized tree, at distance XX, and the light rays being the arrowed lines, and the gap between the arrowed is the "field of view"?
The tree is naturally the same size in it's own physical form. Why even argue that.

What I saying is, it is compressed to your vision over distance.
That's all I've been saying, so what's the issue?

Because you say the most ridiculous things.
No one knows what your intention is.


We "know" what youve been saying.
The porblem is it makes no sense because you refuse to use english properly.

Please repeat what i said in your own words so we have a rosetta stone and baseline to move this forward.

You repeating the same word salad used before has no meaning until we can translate it to english.

Does a pinhole accruately describe the diagrams (the correct ones) by Bored?

Does a pinhole show how eyss percieve close = large and far = small?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4234 on: April 08, 2021, 12:52:40 AM »
You wanted to claim we can't see the horizon for a RE.

I massively stand by that. You would never have any horizon on your so called globe.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4235 on: April 08, 2021, 01:01:09 AM »

If it's a pinhole, do you accept that the image seen through it has to be compressed?
[/quote]


the "image" yes, not the tree, and not the field of view.
[/quote] Is the tree in the image?
If it is then it is compressed by sight like the image. As part of that image.

Quote from: Themightykabool

We "know" what youve been saying.
The porblem is it makes no sense because you refuse to use english properly.
Does a pinhole accruately describe the diagrams (the correct ones) by Bored?

Does a pinhole show how eyss percieve close = large and far = small?
You've still to describe why you're using a pinhole.


I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4236 on: April 08, 2021, 01:13:21 AM »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4237 on: April 08, 2021, 01:37:36 AM »
This is what we believe.



You need one of these to be true, or you risk contradicting yourself.






Forget your upside down images and concentrate on what you actually see from your tube/tunnel vision.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4238 on: April 08, 2021, 02:34:24 AM »

Forget your upside down images and concentrate on what you actually see from your tube/tunnel vision.

Do you need to give a different explanation for why a pinhole projection works? Shouldn't the same explanation work, It does for my version.
A level tube giving tunnel vision, looking over distance captures the image in that distance as compressed to the eye view.

If you want to show me the pinhole version then explain it in that context.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4239 on: April 08, 2021, 03:02:37 AM »
You wanted to claim we can't see the horizon for a RE.
I massively stand by that. You would never have any horizon on your so called globe.
And there you go ignoring everything else.
That is your baseless assertion that you wouldn't see the horizon.
But we aren't discussing that now, you had your chance for that.
We are discussing the view through a level tube.

An extremely simple question was asked, a question which cuts right to the heart of your contradiction, your twisting and manipulation.
Can you see something that is below the level of the tube if it is far enough away?

This is where you directly contradict yourself.
You claim you cannot possibly see the ground on the globe or a downwards slope, and even to an extent admitted it for a hypothetical FE, all because that ground is BELOW the level of the tube.
You claim that it being below is enough to hide it.
This relies upon it being an absolute, that merely being below the level of the tube will hide it and thus nothing below the level of the tube will be visible.

As soon as you make it not absolute, and instead dependent on distance or some other fact, it means that it is potentially possible to see the ground through the tube, even on a RE or a downwards slope.


But then when it comes to the tree, you claim you can see more than just the 1 inch, which means you can see part of the tree BELOW the tube.

But you can't have it both ways.
Either you can see things below the level of the tube and thus can see the tree and the ground; or you can't, and thus only see 1 physical inch of that tree. Not your magical compressed inch, a physical inch, as if you went up to the tree and looked through the tube at point blank range.

So which is it?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4240 on: April 08, 2021, 04:55:35 AM »
If it's a pinhole, do you accept that the image seen through it has to be compressed?

Is the tree in the image?
If it is then it is compressed by sight like the image. As part of that image.

Quote from: Themightykabool

We "know" what youve been saying.
The porblem is it makes no sense because you refuse to use english properly.
Does a pinhole accruately describe the diagrams (the correct ones) by Bored?

Does a pinhole show how eyss percieve close = large and far = small?
You've still to describe why you're using a pinhole.


I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.


Your eyeball is a version of a pinhole you dolt.
It was said very clearly and specifically.
Your eyeball works
Like
A
Pinhole camera


Your compressing vision is explained by how a pinhole camera works.
Not how your word salad says.
But simply by how a pinhole works.



The tube and your tunnel vision do not compress vision.
Your pinhole eyeball compresses vision.


The tube, as pointed out in manymany (we re on pg 142 now and boreds ref was from pg60something) times now is that the tube limits field of view.


Youre arguing triangles again.
Basic triangles.

Quit repeating your nonsense compressing vision and say yes or no that your eyeball is a pinhole camera.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 04:57:24 AM by Themightykabool »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4241 on: April 08, 2021, 05:59:11 AM »
You wanted to claim we can't see the horizon for a RE.
I massively stand by that. You would never have any horizon on your so called globe.
And there you go ignoring everything else.
That is your baseless assertion that you wouldn't see the horizon.
But we aren't discussing that now, you had your chance for that.

Then don't change it up. Stick to one thing. And...as for having my chance. I'll do what I feel I need to do, as and when.

Quote from: JackBlack
We are discussing the view through a level tube.

Then let's discuss it and only it.

A view through a level tube.
Let's see you stay on that path.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4242 on: April 08, 2021, 05:59:50 AM »

Your internet friends are starting to get bored with you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4243 on: April 08, 2021, 06:07:55 AM »
Your eyeball is a version of a pinhole you dolt.
It was said very clearly and specifically.
Your eyeball works
Like
A
Pinhole camera

Your compressing vision is explained by how a pinhole camera works.
Not how your word salad says.
But simply by how a pinhole works.
Then explain how the pinhole works as your eye.
That's what I was asking but you overlooked it as per usual and go to square one, like always.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube and your tunnel vision do not compress vision.
Your pinhole eyeball compresses vision.

You seem to be getting there.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube, as pointed out in manymany (we re on pg 142 now and boreds ref was from pg60something) times now is that the tube limits field of view.


Youre arguing triangles again.
Basic triangles.

Quit repeating your nonsense compressing vision and say yes or no that your eyeball is a pinhole camera.
One minute you appear to be getting a grip and then you go into start again mode.

Put some real effort in.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4244 on: April 08, 2021, 08:08:14 AM »

Your internet friends are starting to get bored with you.
I know you need to dodge this one. You claim JJA faked his pictures by tilting the tube. He could have only done that if the tube can be tilted. Your theory for a level tube doesn't work for tilted tubes?
I have no clue what you're trying to say.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4245 on: April 08, 2021, 08:38:55 AM »
I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.

You and your tubes.  ::)

A tube and a pinhole are topologically identical, that's why.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4246 on: April 08, 2021, 08:40:07 AM »
this is amazing
AMAZING!

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4247 on: April 08, 2021, 08:42:38 AM »
Your eyeball is a version of a pinhole you dolt.
It was said very clearly and specifically.
Your eyeball works
Like
A
Pinhole camera

Your compressing vision is explained by how a pinhole camera works.
Not how your word salad says.
But simply by how a pinhole works.
Then explain how the pinhole works as your eye.
That's what I was asking but you overlooked it as per usual and go to square one, like always.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube and your tunnel vision do not compress vision.
Your pinhole eyeball compresses vision.

You seem to be getting there.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube, as pointed out in manymany (we re on pg 142 now and boreds ref was from pg60something) times now is that the tube limits field of view.


Youre arguing triangles again.
Basic triangles.

Quit repeating your nonsense compressing vision and say yes or no that your eyeball is a pinhole camera.
One minute you appear to be getting a grip and then you go into start again mode.

Put some real effort in.

YOUR EYEBALL IS A PIN HOLE CAMERA

EYEBALL
PINHOLE



https://images.app.goo.gl/Wk8xhFgCWQJL9zycA


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4248 on: April 08, 2021, 08:50:31 AM »
Quote
I have no clue what you're trying to say.

So many of your claims rely on 'through a level tube' vision as if this is the only way anything can be viewed. What fundamental property of tubes makes them always seek there level?
My argument was due to a level tube.
This is where the argument needs to be argued against but it's been changed and twisted into this mish mash.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4249 on: April 08, 2021, 08:51:07 AM »
I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.

You and your tubes.  ::)

A tube and a pinhole are topologically identical, that's why.
Then explain it all and let's get some clarity.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4250 on: April 08, 2021, 08:54:29 AM »
Your eyeball is a version of a pinhole you dolt.
It was said very clearly and specifically.
Your eyeball works
Like
A
Pinhole camera

Your compressing vision is explained by how a pinhole camera works.
Not how your word salad says.
But simply by how a pinhole works.
Then explain how the pinhole works as your eye.
That's what I was asking but you overlooked it as per usual and go to square one, like always.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube and your tunnel vision do not compress vision.
Your pinhole eyeball compresses vision.

You seem to be getting there.


Quote from: Themightykabool
The tube, as pointed out in manymany (we re on pg 142 now and boreds ref was from pg60something) times now is that the tube limits field of view.


Youre arguing triangles again.
Basic triangles.

Quit repeating your nonsense compressing vision and say yes or no that your eyeball is a pinhole camera.
One minute you appear to be getting a grip and then you go into start again mode.

Put some real effort in.

YOUR EYEBALL IS A PIN HOLE CAMERA

EYEBALL
PINHOLE



https://images.app.goo.gl/Wk8xhFgCWQJL9zycA
Explain what is happening in your own words.

I have a level tube looking out at 6 feet in height into the distance.
The farther away I move the more a distant object visually compresses to fit the tube.

I explained this so now you tell me what your vision is.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4251 on: April 08, 2021, 08:57:06 AM »
the compression happens at the pinhole WHERE YOUR EYEBALL IS.

the tube is exterior to YOUR EYEBALL (AKA THE PINHOLE).

the tube has nothing to do with how compression of light happens, becuase the tube is not your EYEBALL, and people with or without the tube still see the tree of the same angular size.

because

THE TUBE

IS NOT

YOUR

EYEBALL

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4252 on: April 08, 2021, 09:02:21 AM »
I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.

You and your tubes.  ::)

A tube and a pinhole are topologically identical, that's why.
Then explain it all and let's get some clarity.

I just did.  Do you not understand what 'topologically identical' means?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4253 on: April 08, 2021, 10:05:30 AM »
bored, can you add an eyeball-pinhole AFTER the tu-tube?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4254 on: April 08, 2021, 02:32:09 PM »
Then don't change it up. Stick to one thing.
At which point you just do whatever you can to avoid it, typically just ignoring the simple questions, like you are doing now.


Quote from: JackBlack
We are discussing the view through a level tube.
Then let's discuss it and only it.
Good. Discuss it. Answer the extremely simple question you were asked:
If an object is far enough away horizontally, can you see it even though it is below the tube?

Again, if the answer is yes, this means your argument that you can't see the ground because it is below is false.
In reality it would be if the ground is far enough away, but not far enough down, you can see it, and thus you actually need to do the math to show you can't. The math I already did and showed you can.

If the answer is no, that means you cannot see any part of the tree that is below the tube. That means you can only see 1 inch of the tree through a 1 inch tube.


So which is it?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4255 on: April 09, 2021, 02:11:06 AM »
the compression happens at the pinhole WHERE YOUR EYEBALL IS.

the tube is exterior to YOUR EYEBALL (AKA THE PINHOLE).

the tube has nothing to do with how compression of light happens, becuase the tube is not your EYEBALL, and people with or without the tube still see the tree of the same angular size.

because

THE TUBE

IS NOT

YOUR

EYEBALL
Correct, the tube is not my eyeball. My eye ball is at the back of the dark tube, looking through that tube like looking through a dark tunnel.
Tunnel vision on the level, in his case.

From the other end of that tunnel is the biggest amount of light.
Let's call this the start of the light tunnel.

You see the biggest part of your view at the very start f that end dark tunnel to the very start of the attached light tunnel.

What you see at the end of it is the smallest return of light because it gives the appearance of a cone effect but in reality it is equal.

All that's happened is, compression due to more dense matter/molecule build, horizontally to the target, creating a sort of back to front telescopic return mindset.

As if you were looking through the front to back of a scope.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 02:20:24 AM by sceptimatic »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4256 on: April 09, 2021, 02:13:01 AM »
I'm using a tube, like I started off with.
Level.
Tunnel vision to the object.

So, out of that can you tell me where your pinhole comes into it.

You and your tubes.  ::)

A tube and a pinhole are topologically identical, that's why.
Then explain it all and let's get some clarity.

I just did.  Do you not understand what 'topologically identical' means?
Explain the tube and explain the pinhole.

Can't you do it without looking it up and coming back with nothing?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4257 on: April 09, 2021, 02:19:59 AM »

Good. Discuss it. Answer the extremely simple question you were asked:
If an object is far enough away horizontally, can you see it even though it is below the tube?

No.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4258 on: April 09, 2021, 03:37:20 AM »
What you see at the end of it is the smallest return of light because it gives the appearance of a cone effect but in reality it is equal.
You are confusing reality and visual again.
What you see visually, is as if it is just a small dot, with light coming in straight towards you.
But what happens in reality, is a cone.
The easiest way to tell is that the further away an object is, the more you can see of it.
If it truly was equal, then you would see an equal amount of the object, regardless of distance.


Good. Discuss it. Answer the extremely simple question you were asked:
If an object is far enough away horizontally, can you see it even though it is below the tube?
No.
Then how do you see any part of the true that is below the tube?

For example, in this diagram, do you see the bottom of the distant tree, even though it is well below the level of the tube?

In fact, can you see any part of it outside the 2 parallel black lines marking the height of the tube?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4259 on: April 09, 2021, 04:44:21 AM »
the compression happens at the pinhole WHERE YOUR EYEBALL IS.

the tube is exterior to YOUR EYEBALL (AKA THE PINHOLE).

the tube has nothing to do with how compression of light happens, becuase the tube is not your EYEBALL, and people with or without the tube still see the tree of the same angular size.

because

THE TUBE

IS NOT

YOUR

EYEBALL
Correct, the tube is not my eyeball. My eye ball is at the back of the dark tube, looking through that tube like looking through a dark tunnel.
Tunnel vision on the level, in his case.

From the other end of that tunnel is the biggest amount of light.
Let's call this the start of the light tunnel.

You see the biggest part of your view at the very start f that end dark tunnel to the very start of the attached light tunnel.

What you see at the end of it is the smallest return of light because it gives the appearance of a cone effect but in reality it is equal.

All that's happened is, compression due to more dense matter/molecule build, horizontally to the target, creating a sort of back to front telescopic return mindset.

As if you were looking through the front to back of a scope.

No
The pinhole camera is your eye and is why far looks small and close looks big.
Angles
Triangles

Are you of the opinion that you NEED a level tu-tube to compress light to see far aqay things?

Are you of the opinion that your eye is NOT a pinhole and your eye is NOT how you see?