What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4110 on: April 02, 2021, 06:58:50 AM »
Instwad of using your very flawed communication skills, perhaps make your own diagram.
Because all those lines reprsent light rays which we all jnderstood and you seem to have somehow redefined as something else.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4111 on: April 02, 2021, 08:23:33 AM »
Instwad of using your very flawed communication skills, perhaps make your own diagram.
Because all those lines reprsent light rays which we all jnderstood and you seem to have somehow redefined as something else.
Drawing a few lines represents light rays do they? Ok.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4112 on: April 02, 2021, 09:33:15 AM »
Yes
Yes they do
These arent even abstract cpncepts

Keep failing at basic things like geometry

https://images.app.goo.gl/8eSfPRtRUtMevU7z6

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4113 on: April 02, 2021, 09:42:36 AM »
100pg later youre only now catching onto this?


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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4114 on: April 02, 2021, 10:34:53 AM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4115 on: April 02, 2021, 11:06:56 AM »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4116 on: April 02, 2021, 03:49:05 PM »

No, that is you avoiding the argument.
The argument is that as humans have a FOV, this allows them to easily see the ground.
I never said humans don't have a FOV. You decided to make it that I did to suit your argument.
And yet again you ignore the argument and basically everything that is said.

Sure, you never explicitly state that humans don't have a FOV, you just continually ignore what a FOV means and ignore the logical consequence of it to pretend that humans can't see the globe.

Your repeated claims is consistent with a position of no FOV, where you act like merely because Earth is below, it is magically not visible.
The only way to have an absolute claim like that is with no FOV.
As soon as you accept a FOV exists, the claim is no longer absolute and instead depends on several factors, such as the rate of curvature, how large your FOV is and how far above the curve you are.

So it doesn't matter if you don't explicitly state that humans don't have a FOV, as your position is clearly one which completely ignores the fact we do have a FOV.

Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.
No, you repeatedly rejected it, acting like we would only ever see 1 inch through a 1 inch tube, and then directly contradicted that claim by saying we can see more of a 1 inch object, by pretending that object is compressed.
But that idea of compression is the same as what you have been repeatedly rejecting, an actual FOV.

What you want to pretend is "compression", is merely the fact that we have a FOV, and see based upon angles, instead of linear dimensions.
Like shown here:

The more distant tree isn't more compressed, you just see more of it because your angular FOV corresponds to a larger linear distance at that distance.


You also remain contradictory when you continue to claim you can't see the ground.
Even if you want to pretend it is magical compression rather than an angular FOV, the same applies to the distance to the ground. That distance between your eye-level and the ground would be compressed as well, resulting in the exact same effect as FOV.
This was also provided to you:

Where the compressed size of the distance between your eye-level and Earth results in it popping into your FOV.
It also means the "drop" due to the curvature of Earth is compressed, and thus Earth merely curving down is not enough to prevent it from entering your FOV.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4117 on: April 02, 2021, 10:52:09 PM »
100pg later youre only now catching onto this?
Catching onto what?

You are back to square one, as per usual.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4118 on: April 02, 2021, 11:03:55 PM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4119 on: April 02, 2021, 11:09:38 PM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.

So what if it's compressed, or not compressed, whatever? Doesn't matter. The question is, is the image correct that you can see the ground in front of the tree and perhaps the sky above, if given enough distance between the tube and the tree? You originally said you couldn't. You would only see the 1 inch tube view all the way to the mid trunk of the tree, that's all. Hence your "absolutely" in the first diagram. Now are you saying that yes, the FOV allows you to see the whole tree, with ground and sky? Which is it?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4120 on: April 02, 2021, 11:15:08 PM »


What you want to pretend is "compression", is merely the fact that we have a FOV, and see based upon angles, instead of linear dimensions.
Like shown here:

The more distant tree isn't more compressed, you just see more of it because your angular FOV corresponds to a larger linear distance at that distance.

Ahhh right, I see what you're playing at.

You totally overlook the cross hair point of vision  and decide to use the FOV as if the tree in the distance stands out like a sore thumb du to it.


Let me try and make this as clear as I have done for long enough.
We were arguing vision through a simple tube with a diameter of about an inch or two.
I told you it was tunnel vision to help with the cross hair focus on any distance object and/or your theoretical horizon line.


I told you (and do reference it by bringing it up) how the light over distance creates a compression of distant objects.
This is because the light that is closer  to your eye is greater than the light over distance coming back to your eye...hence why it compresses the bigger picture into that compression back to your eye.


To put it in a nutshell, it's like looking at a focal point (the tree) as it shrinks (to your eye view) as you move away.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4121 on: April 02, 2021, 11:25:25 PM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.

So what if it's compressed, or not compressed, whatever? Doesn't matter. The question is, is the image correct that you can see the ground in front of the tree and perhaps the sky above, if given enough distance between the tube and the tree? You originally said you couldn't. You would only see the 1 inch tube view all the way to the mid trunk of the tree, that's all. Hence your "absolutely" in the first diagram. Now are you saying that yes, the FOV allows you to see the whole tree, with ground and sky? Which is it?
I already answered this a while ago, have you forgot?

I said you see the tree over distance. You see what light from the object  being reflected back but it is compressed, not stood out like you've made it.

You are looking at it from a telescopic view. A wide angled FOV.

Can you remember what the argument was?

Try and remember.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4122 on: April 02, 2021, 11:56:34 PM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.

So what if it's compressed, or not compressed, whatever? Doesn't matter. The question is, is the image correct that you can see the ground in front of the tree and perhaps the sky above, if given enough distance between the tube and the tree? You originally said you couldn't. You would only see the 1 inch tube view all the way to the mid trunk of the tree, that's all. Hence your "absolutely" in the first diagram. Now are you saying that yes, the FOV allows you to see the whole tree, with ground and sky? Which is it?
I already answered this a while ago, have you forgot?

I said you see the tree over distance. You see what light from the object  being reflected back but it is compressed, not stood out like you've made it.

You are looking at it from a telescopic view. A wide angled FOV.

Can you remember what the argument was?

Try and remember.

For the love of god, can you just answer a simple question and settle this once and for all.

Is it this:

A

Or is it this:

B

A or B?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4123 on: April 03, 2021, 12:12:26 AM »
Scepti,
None of what you say in your last post makes any sense, to me. I am not trying to be derogatory, it just doesn't explain anything.

Please provide us a diagram or tell us which of the many diagrams provided for you are correct.



Why am I wrong to believe this is correct and fully verifiable in reality?
Let's get back to what this was really about.
A simple tube set level over a gradient (downward) and not bringing that gradient into view over distance.


That was the argument which has transferred into twisting and turning, into this carry on.

I answered the tube question or vision question by telling you all its compressed vision over distance due to obscurity of light back to the eye over that distance, wth the light closer to the tube as you back away from the object taking precedence.


Go and do what JJA refused to do.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4124 on: April 03, 2021, 12:27:37 AM »
What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.
No, that is not what you have been saying.
You have stated that you can't see the ground because it is below the level of the tube. That is completely ignoring FOV/compression.

Most people have no need to discuss your idea of compression, as it is simply explained by FOV.
What you see, is because you have a FOV.
You see more of distant objects, not because they are being compressed, but because at that distance, the angular FOV you have corresponds to a greater height.



What you want to pretend is "compression", is merely the fact that we have a FOV, and see based upon angles, instead of linear dimensions.
Like shown here:

The more distant tree isn't more compressed, you just see more of it because your angular FOV corresponds to a larger linear distance at that distance.

Ahhh right, I see what you're playing at.
I'm not playing at anything. I am clearly explaining why your claims are wrong.

You totally overlook the cross hair point of vision  and decide to use the FOV as if the tree in the distance stands out like a sore thumb du to it.
No, I don't.
Even that cross hair will have some angular span, and that means it will be able to obscure a larger object or a larger angular distance the further away that object is.

Let me try and make this as clear as I have done for long enough.
We were arguing vision through a simple tube with a diameter of about an inch or two.
I told you it was tunnel vision to help with the cross hair focus on any distance object and/or your theoretical horizon line.
And as I have told you, even through such a tube, YOU STILL HAVE A FOV!
Your entire argument relies upon ignoring this FOV and instead pretending that we magically see in a straight line only.

To put it in a nutshell, it's like looking at a focal point (the tree) as it shrinks (to your eye view) as you move away.
Which then allows you to see the ground, which you claim shouldn't be possible.

Let's get back to what this was really about.
Fine, lets do that.
On a RE, as humans have a FOV, when they look out level, due to how small the curvature of Earth is, they will easily be able to see Earth, rather than just sky as you claim.

It was your inability to defend your false claim that on a RE you would expect to see nothing but sky with such a view which lead you down this path of twisting and turning to try to avoid reality.

Even a simple tube, set level, will still allow you to see the RE, assuming its FOV is large enough.

But if you get high enough, you can clearly observe the horizon to be below level.

And, even if you try to set it up on a continuous downwards gradient, your ability to see the ground through the tube depends on the FOV and the gradient.
If the FOV is larger than 2 times the gradient, you can still see the gradient.

Go and do what JJA refused to do.
For what point?
For you to dismiss it as fake, like you dismiss every piece of evidence that shows you are wrong as fake?
For you to then throw in more ridiculous requirements and excuses about how you magically aren't wrong?

With you admitting you do not magically only see 1 inch of the tree, and instead you see more, your entire argument falls to pieces.
Your argument relies upon it being impossible to see anything below the level of the tube.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4125 on: April 03, 2021, 01:19:29 AM »
Not your draqings, but you agreed to them
Agreed to compression over distance. Of course I did.

So now I'm utterly confused. Do you agree with this:


What you see in the distance is a compression. It's like seeing a big picture and moving back, but as you do you compress that picture to fit into your view.
This is why I used the tube to show the picture that you partly see close up can be compressed into that tube diameter to your eye, because of your eye.

Like I said with FOV. It's there but it's compressed over distance.
That's all I've been saying.

So what if it's compressed, or not compressed, whatever? Doesn't matter. The question is, is the image correct that you can see the ground in front of the tree and perhaps the sky above, if given enough distance between the tube and the tree? You originally said you couldn't. You would only see the 1 inch tube view all the way to the mid trunk of the tree, that's all. Hence your "absolutely" in the first diagram. Now are you saying that yes, the FOV allows you to see the whole tree, with ground and sky? Which is it?
I already answered this a while ago, have you forgot?

I said you see the tree over distance. You see what light from the object  being reflected back but it is compressed, not stood out like you've made it.

You are looking at it from a telescopic view. A wide angled FOV.

Can you remember what the argument was?

Try and remember.

For the love of god, can you just answer a simple question and settle this once and for all.

Is it this:

A

Or is it this:

B

A or B?
None.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4126 on: April 03, 2021, 01:23:07 AM »

Compress the visual from that tube by making the tree appear to fit the tube but smaller over distance.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4127 on: April 03, 2021, 02:47:31 AM »
None.
Then how about you try drawing what you think is happening?
Or explain what is wrong with what others have provided, such as explaining what stops the blue line from going into the tube?

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4128 on: April 03, 2021, 04:34:00 AM »
Go and do what JJA refused to do.

So glad I made such a big impact in your life. :)

Bored, he could be talking about any of these. How it's impossible to see the ground through a tube even though I've posted plenty of images looking through a tube.  ::)

I even did the calculations for a worst case scenario of looking through the tube near the bottom and you can still see the ground.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=87127.msg2302968#msg2302968

The bottom picture had several PAGES of arguments from sceptimatic that there was no curve in that image. Truly astounding. This thread is a goldmine. :)




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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4129 on: April 03, 2021, 05:23:27 AM »
Compress the visual from that tube by making the tree appear to fit the tube but smaller over distance.

?
Make the tree smaller.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4130 on: April 03, 2021, 05:48:14 AM »
Omg    ahahahaa

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4131 on: April 03, 2021, 05:49:36 AM »

The tree is the tree

Lets try:

Can we bring back the railway tracks?

Or a row of ever closer trees.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4132 on: April 03, 2021, 07:22:11 AM »
Make the tree smaller.

No, the tree is 'tree size'. Does the actual physical size of a tree change based on viewing distance?
The physical size does not change but the size to your vision does. And this is what I'm saying.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4133 on: April 03, 2021, 07:58:44 AM »
Make the tree smaller.

No, the tree is 'tree size'. Does the actual physical size of a tree change based on viewing distance?
The physical size does not change but the size to your vision does. And this is what I'm saying.

Boreds pictures represent what is seen. Where the limits of the vision and lights are and come from to reach the eyeball.
The field of view in the traditional definition.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 08:06:47 AM by Themightykabool »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4134 on: April 03, 2021, 08:10:22 AM »
Maybe this would help
 

  " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
As funny as that sketch is, it's the truth.

Have a good think about it while you're laughing at the sketch and me.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4135 on: April 03, 2021, 09:13:27 AM »
Maybe this would help
 

  " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
As funny as that sketch is, it's the truth.

Have a good think about it while you're laughing at the sketch and me.

And this is a perfect example why I keep coming back here. This is amazing.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4136 on: April 03, 2021, 02:37:19 PM »
Make the tree smaller.
No, you are meant to be showing what happens to the light.
How does the light from the top and bottom of the tree make it into the tube.
If the tree needs to be smaller you are claiming the tree physically shrinks, which we know is not the case.

As funny as that sketch is, it's the truth.
Have a good think about it while you're laughing at the sketch and me.
Yet you don't seem to recognise the problem.
The far away cows aren't magically smaller.
They are just far away.
There is no magical compression.

You are rejecting that truth, and instead insisting that the distant trees/cows are somehow smaller, all so you can avoid the fact that you are capable of seeing the ground through that tube.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4137 on: April 03, 2021, 03:10:07 PM »
Try this exercise.


Look at building far away

Close one eye

Use your index and thumb to size the top-bottom.
Move your hand back and forth.

Note the distance betweem fingers changes.
This change follows lines, the light rays, same as Boreds picture.

Seriously
Trianlges arent that complicated.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4138 on: April 04, 2021, 03:22:20 AM »
Maybe this would help
 

  " class="bbc_link" target="_blank">
As funny as that sketch is, it's the truth.

Have a good think about it while you're laughing at the sketch and me.

And this is a perfect example why I keep coming back here. This is amazing.
It is amazing if you use your brain.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4139 on: April 04, 2021, 03:23:51 AM »
It is amazing if you use your brain.
You should try it some time.