What would change your mind?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3570 on: February 08, 2021, 11:12:35 PM »

Do you think I am lying. Anyone can prove for themselves you are wrong.
So go and prove it.
Take over JJA's mantle where he left off and follow my instructions. Do what he backed out of.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3571 on: February 08, 2021, 11:13:59 PM »
you don't give a damn about the truth.
Then why are you bothering with me?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3572 on: February 08, 2021, 11:16:19 PM »
Way back on page 62 was this :-


So are you saying this:


Absolutely.

Scepti, do you still stand by this being reality?
Anyone , even you, can easily test this and see that you are wrong. Obviously being wrong is not going to change your mind. So carry on arguing all you like but no sensible person is ever going to agree with you. You seem to think there are silent observers of this thread that may agree with you, there are not.
Yep, I still stand by it, as long as people understand that the tube is just that. A simple dark tube with no lens.

Just to be crystal clear. You're saying that through the regular old tube (no lens) you can only see the tube diameter's worth of the tree - Just the black rectangle area of the trunk (See image) - Nothing else?


No, that's not what I'm saying.
You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3573 on: February 08, 2021, 11:51:03 PM »
Way back on page 62 was this :-


So are you saying this:


Absolutely.

Scepti, do you still stand by this being reality?
Anyone , even you, can easily test this and see that you are wrong. Obviously being wrong is not going to change your mind. So carry on arguing all you like but no sensible person is ever going to agree with you. You seem to think there are silent observers of this thread that may agree with you, there are not.
Yep, I still stand by it, as long as people understand that the tube is just that. A simple dark tube with no lens.

Just to be crystal clear. You're saying that through the regular old tube (no lens) you can only see the tube diameter's worth of the tree - Just the black rectangle area of the trunk (See image) - Nothing else?


No, that's not what I'm saying.
You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Ok, so why can’t you see the ground right in front of the tree if you can see the whole tree?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3574 on: February 09, 2021, 12:01:00 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic link=topic=87127.msg2303842#msg2303842

You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Visually compressed into that one inch tube?  How much you see depends on your distance? 

Like this? -


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3575 on: February 09, 2021, 12:44:13 AM »
Way back on page 62 was this :-


So are you saying this:


Absolutely.

Scepti, do you still stand by this being reality?
Anyone , even you, can easily test this and see that you are wrong. Obviously being wrong is not going to change your mind. So carry on arguing all you like but no sensible person is ever going to agree with you. You seem to think there are silent observers of this thread that may agree with you, there are not.
Yep, I still stand by it, as long as people understand that the tube is just that. A simple dark tube with no lens.

Just to be crystal clear. You're saying that through the regular old tube (no lens) you can only see the tube diameter's worth of the tree - Just the black rectangle area of the trunk (See image) - Nothing else?


No, that's not what I'm saying.
You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Ok, so why can’t you see the ground right in front of the tree if you can see the whole tree?
Your eye sight wouldn't allow it. Too compressed.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3576 on: February 09, 2021, 12:45:28 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic link=topic=87127.msg2303842#msg2303842

You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Visually compressed into that one inch tube?  How much you see depends on your distance? 

Like this? -


There's no fluted vision.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3577 on: February 09, 2021, 01:14:41 AM »
you don't give a damn about the truth.
Then why are you bothering with me?
Because unlike you, I do care about the truth, so I will continue to object to your garbage.

Again, until you can explain what magic stops the blue line, the diagram I provided clearly demonstrates that you are completely wrong.

No, that's not what I'm saying.
The problem for you is that IS what you are saying and you are contradicting yourself.

The diagram you agreed to shows a FOV which is always 1 physical inch, i.e. the same physical diameter of the tube, which means after any distance you only see 1 physical inch of any object.

Otherwise, you end up with 2 equivalent options:
1 - You see a cone of vision, not the magic vision you claim, meaning you see based upon angles and thus can see the ground.
2 - Instead of plotting based upon physical height, you plot based upon angle (or as you would call it, compressed height).
This means the ground is not a straight line. Instead it looks more like this (pretend the left axis is labelled "compressed height" or something like that):


The same "compression" that allows you to see more than 1 physical inch of the tree also allows you to see the ground.

There's no fluted vision.
Without that "fluted vision" you only get to see 1 inch of the tree.

And this is why I suggested you draw a diagram. Because there is simply no way out for you with you drawing a diagram.
It means you either show that you magically only see 1 inch of the tree, or that your claim is pure BS.

If you like, consider the "fluted vision" as just showing the compression.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3578 on: February 09, 2021, 01:33:02 AM »
Quote
but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Just what is being compressed?  Without any lenses in the tube how is the size of the image of the tree (regardless of how much of the tree you see through the tube) on the eye being changed when you look through the tube compared to when you are not looking through the tube? 

What do you understand the word compressed to mean?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3579 on: February 09, 2021, 03:21:53 AM »
Honestly, I've heard less talk about red lines and blue lines when looking at a pregnancy test.

Sceptimatic, could you at least try with your replies to my well thought out posts, or don't reply at all because you're well and truly beaten. "Like I said, you're clueless" is lowest of low content posting, and I'd hate someone to report you.
Carry on and do what you need to do. Your baiting is weak and laughable.



Quote from: Smoke Machine
As I post this, I'm about to finish a toilet roll, and I live on a hill, and own a level. How about I spend two minutes of my time, and photograph how much of the downward slope i can see through my level toilet roll, while I try not to get arrested and thrown in a looney bin.
You apparently have everything and then nothing to show for the everything. Do what you feel is best for your own mind.

Sceptimatic, you're struggling again. My arguments are like titanium steel compared to your cotton candy. Don't blame me for the shape of this world not meeting your cell membrane expectations. I'll do what I feel is best, for your mind. I already know how the dunny roll experiment pans out.
What arguments?
You don't have any arguments.

Don't I?  :D






See those cars in the final photo, looking through the level tube? That red car is way down the hill. That area of grass in the same photo in front of the red car, is waaay down the hill. You can see from the level on the side of the tripod, the tube was level. There's the blue line, folks.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 03:31:18 AM by Smoke Machine »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3580 on: February 09, 2021, 03:32:22 AM »

Because unlike you, I do care about the truth, so I will continue to object to your garbage.

Feel free.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3581 on: February 09, 2021, 03:34:14 AM »
Quote
but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Just what is being compressed?  Without any lenses in the tube how is the size of the image of the tree (regardless of how much of the tree you see through the tube) on the eye being changed when you look through the tube compared to when you are not looking through the tube? 

What do you understand the word compressed to mean?
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
I'll be patient and give you time to think.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3582 on: February 09, 2021, 03:37:13 AM »
Honestly, I've heard less talk about red lines and blue lines when looking at a pregnancy test.

Sceptimatic, could you at least try with your replies to my well thought out posts, or don't reply at all because you're well and truly beaten. "Like I said, you're clueless" is lowest of low content posting, and I'd hate someone to report you.
Carry on and do what you need to do. Your baiting is weak and laughable.



Quote from: Smoke Machine
As I post this, I'm about to finish a toilet roll, and I live on a hill, and own a level. How about I spend two minutes of my time, and photograph how much of the downward slope i can see through my level toilet roll, while I try not to get arrested and thrown in a looney bin.
You apparently have everything and then nothing to show for the everything. Do what you feel is best for your own mind.

Sceptimatic, you're struggling again. My arguments are like titanium steel compared to your cotton candy. Don't blame me for the shape of this world not meeting your cell membrane expectations. I'll do what I feel is best, for your mind. I already know how the dunny roll experiment pans out.
What arguments?
You don't have any arguments.

Don't I?  :D






See those cars in the final photo, looking through the level tube? That red car is way down the hill. That area of grass in the same photo in front of the red car, is waaay down the hill. You can see from the level on the side of the tripod, the tube was level. There's the blue line, folks.
You people just can't help yourselves.

Seeing how you've set this up, go and do the one I set out.

Let's see what you have.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3583 on: February 09, 2021, 03:59:17 AM »
Quote
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
I'll be patient and give you time to think.

Oh you are kind... thank you.

In the meantime compressed means to make smaller.  So perhaps you could explain how the apparent size of the tree or any part of it to the eye is any smaller when looking through the tube? Are you not confusing compressed with cropped or masked?

If I see the whole of a jumbo jet passing over at 30,000ft when looking at it through a one inch diameter tube that doesn't mean the tube has somehow compressed the jumbo jet so it is just one in long does it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 04:01:50 AM by Solarwind »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3584 on: February 09, 2021, 04:59:21 AM »
Quote
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
I'll be patient and give you time to think.

Oh you are kind... thank you.

In the meantime compressed means to make smaller.  So perhaps you could explain how the apparent size of the tree or any part of it to the eye is any smaller when looking through the tube? Are you not confusing compressed with cropped or masked?

If I see the whole of a jumbo jet passing over at 30,000ft when looking at it through a one inch diameter tube that doesn't mean the tube has somehow compressed the jumbo jet so it is just one in long does it.
Let's make this easier.
Do you agree that a tree may look bigger the closer you are to it?

I think you'll agree.
So you'll agree that the same tree will look smaller the further you are from it.

Obvious, right?

Now then...ask yourself why the tree is smaller the farther away you are from it?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3585 on: February 09, 2021, 05:07:31 AM »
Quote
Do you agree that a tree may look bigger the closer you are to it?

I would say that the size that anything appears to the eye depends on your distance from it.  So if I'm looking at a tree which is say 100ft from me it will look a certain size. That is true regardless of whether I'm looking at it through a tube or not. If I move closer it will look bigger, if I move further away it will look smaller. Does looking at it through a simple tube make it look any bigger or smaller if all else remains the same?  Well you tell me. 

Looking through the tube I may not be able to see all of the tree any more but does that make the size of the image of the tree (or part thereof) on my retina appear any different compared to looking at it without the tube?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2021, 07:08:02 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3586 on: February 09, 2021, 05:18:26 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic lin
[url=https://postimages.org/
[/url]

You really want me to do this experiment as per your specifications, knowing I'm going to get the same result? I still have one more photo from the last experiment of yours I conducted. It's the most exciting photo of them all.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3587 on: February 09, 2021, 07:39:34 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic lin
[url=https://postimages.org/
[/url]

You really want me to do this experiment as per your specifications, knowing I'm going to get the same result? I still have one more photo from the last experiment of yours I conducted. It's the most exciting photo of them all.
You won't get the same result and also, why did you use such a small tube and a decent diameter as well?

But, let's see your most exciting one then, before you go onto the experiment I gave out. Unless this one nails it.
Let's see.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3588 on: February 09, 2021, 08:47:59 AM »
Quote
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
I'll be patient and give you time to think.

Oh you are kind... thank you.

In the meantime compressed means to make smaller.  So perhaps you could explain how the apparent size of the tree or any part of it to the eye is any smaller when looking through the tube? Are you not confusing compressed with cropped or masked?

If I see the whole of a jumbo jet passing over at 30,000ft when looking at it through a one inch diameter tube that doesn't mean the tube has somehow compressed the jumbo jet so it is just one in long does it.
Let's make this easier.
Do you agree that a tree may look bigger the closer you are to it?

I think you'll agree.
So you'll agree that the same tree will look smaller the further you are from it.

Obvious, right?

Now then...ask yourself why the tree is smaller the farther away you are from it?

RAAAAARHHRHARARRAR!!


https://kaiserscience.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/eye-focusing-rays-of-light-figure_10_24_labeled.jpg

here's how eyes work and why things look bigger the closer you are.
ANGLES.
when you walk closer, the pinhole angle gets bigger and the image that hits the back of your eyeball hits more of the back of the eyeball.
get with it.
are you saying angles don't exist?
yes
yes you are
becuase you said so unless you want to recant it.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3589 on: February 09, 2021, 08:49:38 AM »
Way back on page 62 was this :-


So are you saying this:


Absolutely.

Scepti, do you still stand by this being reality?
Anyone , even you, can easily test this and see that you are wrong. Obviously being wrong is not going to change your mind. So carry on arguing all you like but no sensible person is ever going to agree with you. You seem to think there are silent observers of this thread that may agree with you, there are not.
Yep, I still stand by it, as long as people understand that the tube is just that. A simple dark tube with no lens.

Just to be crystal clear. You're saying that through the regular old tube (no lens) you can only see the tube diameter's worth of the tree - Just the black rectangle area of the trunk (See image) - Nothing else?


No, that's not what I'm saying.
You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

wow... really wow...

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3590 on: February 09, 2021, 12:03:34 PM »
Way back on page 62 was this :-


So are you saying this:


Absolutely.

Scepti, do you still stand by this being reality?
Anyone , even you, can easily test this and see that you are wrong. Obviously being wrong is not going to change your mind. So carry on arguing all you like but no sensible person is ever going to agree with you. You seem to think there are silent observers of this thread that may agree with you, there are not.
Yep, I still stand by it, as long as people understand that the tube is just that. A simple dark tube with no lens.

Just to be crystal clear. You're saying that through the regular old tube (no lens) you can only see the tube diameter's worth of the tree - Just the black rectangle area of the trunk (See image) - Nothing else?


No, that's not what I'm saying.
You'll see some or all of the tree and more depending on your distance of view through that tube.....but....it will......be.....compressed into ......that......one.....inch.....diameter......tube....to......your.......vision.

Ok, so why can’t you see the ground right in front of the tree if you can see the whole tree?
Your eye sight wouldn't allow it. Too compressed.

Wait, so this compression you speak of somehow knows to only reveal the tree into your vision and sentiently blocks out the ground? How does it do that?

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3591 on: February 09, 2021, 12:32:58 PM »
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
Again, all that compression is, is the lines travelling at an angle and thus getting closer together.

For example:
A 4 m tall tree at 50 m, has a height of 50 m, regardless of how far away it is.
And that corresponds to an angle of (at least assuming you are at the centre of the height) roughly 4.6 degrees.

The "visual compression" is merely light travelling along at that angle to keep it the same angular size.
This means at 25 m distance it will have been "compressed" to what you say is 2 m high.
At 12.5 m, it will have "compressed" to 1 m high.
At 5 m it will be 0.4 m, at 0.5 m it will be 0.04 m, at 0.25 m (25 cm) it will be 0.02 m (2 cm, or less than an inch).

Again, this compression is merely it following the angular lines you say don't exist.
As others said, THIS IS THE BLUE LINE!

This is why I asked you to draw the diagram.
Show the lines the light follows to have a tree visible through a level tube.
You simply cannot do it in a way where you can't see flat, level ground (on a hypothetical FE), but can see more than 1 inch of a tree (through a 1 inch tube).

Again, this is because the distance from the ground to the eye-line gets "compressed" as well.
At those 50 m, the physical distance is 2 m. But with this "visual compression", that corresponds to 1 cm at 25 cm, and thus fits the tube.

Again, your position is self-contradictory. Now draw the diagram, explain what magic stops the blue line, or admit you are wrong.

Do you agree that a tree may look bigger the closer you are to it?
Yes, because it subtends a larger angle. But you claim these angles aren't real.

Now then...ask yourself why the tree is smaller the farther away you are from it?
Because light travels in straight lines, and thus subtends a smaller angle the further away it is.
Do you need a diagram to see this?

I even labelled it small and big so you can really see.
The further away the tree is, the smaller the angle it subtends.
Remember, your vision works based upon angles, not linear dimensions like you want to pretend.
Also seen is that the near tree subtends a larger angle than the end of the tube. The light travelling from the top and bottom of the tree would thus need to go through the wall of the tube and thus it would get blocked. So you only see a small portion of the tree. It's angular size is larger than your FOV through the tube.
But further away the angular size of the tree is smaller. Now it does fit in the FOV of the tube.

Again, there is no need for any of your nonsense "compression", but even with that nonsense you can still see the ground.

Seeing how you've set this up, go and do the one I set out.
Why?
As has been explained to you repeatedly, this alone is enough to show you are wrong.
The tube is larger than the car.
This means the light must be coming in from an angle, and you don't get your magic 1 inch view.

Again, all your garbage does is add in needless complexities and shrink the FOV.

why did you use such a small tube and a decent diameter as well?
If your pure BS is true, it would not matter how wide the tube is nor how long it is.
Bringing it up shows you know you are spouting BS.
So is the aim of your needless complications merely to make the FOV tiny?

How about this, would a setup where you have 10 inch diameter tubes, with the tubes being 2 feet long each, with the total distance from the cross hair to the end of the far tube being 11 feet (in accordance with your diagram) suffice?
Or are you really relying upon a smaller and smaller FOV to pretend there is no FOV?

Again, if you want to appeal to compression and have a diagram like that, then what you need is this:

Notice how here, your FOV is just 2 straight parallel lines. You can see anything inside there.
But notice how after 25 feet the distance between your eye and the ground has been "compressed" to less than 0.5 inches and thus it fits within the FOV?

Again, either way YOU ARE WRONG!
The only way to salvage your claim that you absolutely cannot see the ground through a level tube is if you claim you will only ever see 1 physical of any object when looking through a level tube; that if you were to look at a tree in the distance through a 1 inch tube, you would only see 1 inch of that tree.
A claim which is trivial to show is pure BS as has been done repeatedly in this thread.
Saying you can see more of the tree, but still magically can't see the ground is directly contradicting yourself.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3592 on: February 09, 2021, 03:09:47 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic lin
[url=https://postimages.org/
[/url]

You really want me to do this experiment as per your specifications, knowing I'm going to get the same result? I still have one more photo from the last experiment of yours I conducted. It's the most exciting photo of them all.
You won't get the same result and also, why did you use such a small tube and a decent diameter as well?

But, let's see your most exciting one then, before you go onto the experiment I gave out. Unless this one nails it.
Let's see.

That tube is the size toilet rolls come in, here in Australia. Would you mind specifying the diameter and length of the tubes you'd like me to use?

The other photo, is from the lens at the bottom of the tube looking through, level. All sky on the other side, baby. That's the magic that stops the blue line.

I really want to get this next one right, I dont want to have to repeat the experiment, because I received a lot of concerned looks from drivers and neighbors performing your first experiment. Does it matter if I dont wear my chicken little costume next time? 

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3593 on: February 09, 2021, 04:12:06 PM »

Do you think I am lying. Anyone can prove for themselves you are wrong.
So go and prove it.
Take over JJA's mantle where he left off and follow my instructions. Do what he backed out of.

Posted pictures of your experiment yet?  I haven't see them.  I have evidence to back up my claims, you have, nothing.  Quit being so scared.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3594 on: February 09, 2021, 04:13:47 PM »
You people just can't help yourselves.

Seeing how you've set this up, go and do the one I set out.

Let's see what you have.

Do your own experiment. Nobody is going to follow your crazy demands anymore until you show us your own setup. It's childish to keep insisting everyone do things your way when you won't even show anyone what that is supposed to look like.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3595 on: February 09, 2021, 04:20:18 PM »
Don't I?  :D






See those cars in the final photo, looking through the level tube? That red car is way down the hill. That area of grass in the same photo in front of the red car, is waaay down the hill. You can see from the level on the side of the tripod, the tube was level. There's the blue line, folks.

Looks like seeing the ground from a level tube to me.  Nice pictures.

But... why would anyone be surprised?  ::)

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3596 on: February 09, 2021, 09:31:35 PM »


Wait, so this compression you speak of somehow knows to only reveal the tree into your vision and sentiently blocks out the ground? How does it do that?
It doesn't. It all gets compressed over distance. Not physically but vision compression by changing light over distance.
Rather than a fluted vision it creates a theoretical converged vision spread over distance and movement over that distance.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3597 on: February 09, 2021, 09:34:13 PM »
Compressed visual of an object as opposed to compression of a physical object.
Again, all that compression is, is the lines travelling at an angle and thus getting closer together.


A theoretical angle. A convergence of vision.

This is why a scope is not to be used, or naked eye in the scenario I gave.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3598 on: February 09, 2021, 09:37:47 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic lin
[url=https://postimages.org/
[/url]

You really want me to do this experiment as per your specifications, knowing I'm going to get the same result? I still have one more photo from the last experiment of yours I conducted. It's the most exciting photo of them all.
You won't get the same result and also, why did you use such a small tube and a decent diameter as well?

But, let's see your most exciting one then, before you go onto the experiment I gave out. Unless this one nails it.
Let's see.

That tube is the size toilet rolls come in, here in Australia. Would you mind specifying the diameter and length of the tubes you'd like me to use?

The other photo, is from the lens at the bottom of the tube looking through, level. All sky on the other side, baby. That's the magic that stops the blue line.

I really want to get this next one right, I dont want to have to repeat the experiment, because I received a lot of concerned looks from drivers and neighbors performing your first experiment. Does it matter if I dont wear my chicken little costume next time?
It's imperative that you wear the exact costume I put in the picture. If you don't look like the person in my picture then you should pass off as some kind of civil engineer.

The tube needs to be a foot long at least.....but....feel free to use those one's you have if you set them up like my diagram.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3599 on: February 09, 2021, 10:20:43 PM »


Wait, so this compression you speak of somehow knows to only reveal the tree into your vision and sentiently blocks out the ground? How does it do that?
It doesn't. It all gets compressed over distance. Not physically but vision compression by changing light over distance.
Rather than a fluted vision it creates a theoretical converged vision spread over distance and movement over that distance.

I have no idea what this jumble of words means, "...it creates a theoretical converged vision spread over distance and movement over that distance"...

Whatever. The point is, you say you can see the tree, a great portion of it, right? If not the whole thing at distance. What is it about the ground right in front of the tree that makes it so you can't see it? If you're far enough away you will see the whole tree, the sky above it, the ground just before it and stuff to either side, right?