What would change your mind?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3300 on: January 25, 2021, 09:26:27 PM »


Alternatively, you need a tube which has a FOV of effectively 0.

Otherwise, you have an angular FOV and can see things either above or below the tube.

You'll always have a FOV. The tube diameter always allows that. You know this and you know I know this, so why bother going on about FOV?

The set up is to stop two things.
1. To stop angular dip, meaning looking down the tube, unlevel.

2. To ensure the crosshairs are centred onto each other so as not to change angle of sight.

All you're doing from that point is having a FOV that corresponds with the actual diameter of the tube end at that particular distance on a gradient.
And, the reality is, you do not see the ground, unlike the little attempted dupe by a certain person.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3301 on: January 25, 2021, 09:27:23 PM »
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3302 on: January 25, 2021, 11:22:00 PM »
Alternatively, you need a tube which has a FOV of effectively 0.
Otherwise, you have an angular FOV and can see things either above or below the tube.
You'll always have a FOV. The tube diameter always allows that. You know this and you know I know this, so why bother going on about FOV?
Because you keep pretending we don't have a FOV.
You keep pretending that we magically only see thing in the 1 inch size of the tube, that we don't see things below or above the tube.


And, the reality is, you do not see the ground, unlike the little attempted dupe by a certain person.
No, the reality is not what you are trying to dupe people into.
The reality is that you have a FOV, just like always which allows you to see things below the level of the tube.
Your ability to see a downwards gradient is dependent upon the FOV and the gradient, as repeatedly explained.

Again, in order to be certain that you cannot see the downwards gradient, you need a FOV of 0. That is not a FOV. That is not having a FOV.

Again, this is easily shown by the simple diagram and question you continually avoid.

What magic stops the blue line?

How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.
Except all the countless times they already have.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3303 on: January 26, 2021, 01:29:02 AM »
Because you keep pretending we don't have a FOV.





No I don't. I never have and you know this.
Making stuff up to suit and twisting is all you seem to do.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 01:31:03 AM by sceptimatic »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3304 on: January 26, 2021, 02:56:51 AM »
Quote
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

Quite true.  But then what does 'proof' actually mean? I Googled the word proof and found this link.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/14/theres-no-such-thing-as-proof-in-the-scientific-world-theres-only-evidence/?sh=2e2b378b5392

So ultimately no-one can unconditionally prove anything.  If you have proved to your own satisfaction that the Earth is as you believe it to be then no-one can prove any different to you.

Equally though you cannot prove to us that our model of the world is wrong.  You can be as dismissive as you like and make whatever verbal comments you like about how you think we are all a load of mindless idiots who have been indoctrinated or whatever.  But you cannot prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong.  Other than to yourself.  Neither has that ever been your intention.  I know that.  You are simply here to give your beliefs.

There is loads of evidence out there. That evidence is the same for everyone. It is only our interpretations that are different.  You see it one way to suit your beliefs.  We see it another way based on our experience.  But no one can actually 'prove' anything. 
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 02:59:20 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3305 on: January 26, 2021, 03:12:51 AM »
Quote
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

Quite true.  But then what does 'proof' actually mean? I Googled the word proof and found this link.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/12/14/theres-no-such-thing-as-proof-in-the-scientific-world-theres-only-evidence/?sh=2e2b378b5392

So ultimately no-one can unconditionally prove anything.  If you have proved to your own satisfaction that the Earth is as you believe it to be then no-one can prove any different to you.

Equally though you cannot prove to us that our model of the world is wrong.  You can be as dismissive as you like and make whatever verbal comments you like about how you think we are all a load of mindless idiots who have been indoctrinated or whatever.  But you cannot prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong.  Other than to yourself.  Neither has that ever been your intention.  I know that.  You are simply here to give your beliefs.

There is loads of evidence out there. That evidence is the same for everyone. It is only our interpretations that are different.  You see it one way to suit your beliefs.  We see it another way based on our experience.  But no one can actually 'prove' anything.

This.

Proof only exists in mathematics and alcohol. 

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3306 on: January 26, 2021, 04:28:27 AM »
I'm setting up the tubes and crosshairs in such a way as to be viewed perfectly level...or close to it, giving you very little opportunity to create an angle and then claim it to be a FOV that brings in the ground on a gradient.
Are you?  How will you even know the strings are aligned if they're behind a pencil, or that the entire thing isn't simply aligned at a slight angle up or down?

Also, if the horizon is below eye level when looking through the tubes, what is this telling us?
Clearly you don't understand the experiment. Just carry on as you are.

Maybe if you actually tried your own experiment you would also understand us. Then you could even show us all! Are you willing to try?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3307 on: January 26, 2021, 05:15:07 AM »
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

You could, though, prove it.
I havent gone through back to pg100.
It only 10pg but i ll assume you never did your own photo to shut us all up.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3308 on: January 26, 2021, 05:18:27 AM »
Because you keep pretending we don't have a FOV.





No I don't. I never have and you know this.


Incorrect
You do
This is a forum with very easy ability to fact check what youve said.

You ve continually posted the NOT TO SCALE diagram of a person standing on absurdly tall tower and said he can only look level and never see a fov.

You were provided a diagram of a fov showing you can see, at a certain distance, the ground.


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3309 on: January 26, 2021, 08:12:17 AM »
Because you keep pretending we don't have a FOV.





No I don't. I never have and you know this.


Incorrect
You do
This is a forum with very easy ability to fact check what youve said.

You ve continually posted the NOT TO SCALE diagram of a person standing on absurdly tall tower and said he can only look level and never see a fov.

You were provided a diagram of a fov showing you can see, at a certain distance, the ground.
Bring it up where it say what you say, like for like....or find out what was really said.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3310 on: January 26, 2021, 09:32:21 AM »
I think this foolio is saying directly directly below the tube.
Which is irrelevant.
Because when i look straight without a tube, i cant see my feet.
So what ?
It proves nothing of the original of 1inch claim and also dossnt reuqire two tubes and a vert plumb line.
Course you can see below when you do not use the tube. It's because you have a wider vision.
A classic case of you going right back to the beginning. I'm sat here smiling.

smiling from the amazing troll game you got on here.

You, jackass, were asked to restate your position so we don't go all the way back becuase it's become so convoluted.
you refused to do it and we have to go back and assume you're still on about the same thing.
or saying things so void of english or descirption we can only guess at your meaning.

luckily this is a forum and other people have provided diagrams, and all on record.

so i'll pick just the few claims related to this tube business.

your claim was someone couldn't see the
  ground through a tube,
   that the horizon rises to eye level and
     people don't see in 1dimension

Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.










your instance was that the blue line doesn't exists or doesn't exist?
clarify.
or that people don't and do see in 1dimension








Quote from: JackBlack
So are you saying this:


Absolutely.








here someone's pointed out that a tube doesn't do anything but obstruct the field of view, which you've admitted is a thing, and has hand drawn in a tube, which oho does not consequently affect the fact horizon doesn't rise to eye level.





while still saying stupid things like people are unable to look down or have a field of view


Here's a quick diagram.   Genuine people....take time to understand what's being said with it.








you claim to understand yet every statement following you continue to beileve people see in 1dimension

You're making out one dimension to what I'm saying. I'm giving out nothing of the sort.
Tunnel vision is not one dimensional.
I've already mentioned a compressed FOV, so what's the issue?



no, i see NOOO contradictions here.
anyone else?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3311 on: January 26, 2021, 01:17:24 PM »
Because you keep pretending we don't have a FOV.
No I don't. I never have and you know this.
If that really was the case, you wouldn't have dishonestly removed the section of the post clearly explaining that you continually act like we have no FOV.

You saying we have a FOV is an entirely empty gesture when you continually act like we don't.
All it does is further how dishonest you are willing to be.

Again, accepting we have a FOV means accepting that we don't just magically see a straight line.
It means accepting that we have FIELD of view, that is that our view spans a field, i.e. a range of angles.

I.e. this useless garbage from you shows no FOV:

These straight lines clearly show no FOV.
And you used it to claim we wouldn't be able to see the sun as soon as Earth rotates, and that we wouldn't be able to see the horizon at all.
Those claims are based upon there being no FOV.

Accepting that we have a FOV (rather than just the empty gesture of saying we do and claiming you have never acted like we have no FOV) means accepting that even when looking through a level tube, we don't magically just see perfectly level and instead we can see things above and below level as well, within the limits of the FOV.

Like this:

The tube limits your FOV to the red lines.
This means you can't see the orange line, as the walls of the tube block it.
But you can see the blue line and that means you can see things below the tube.

If you actually acknowledged and accepted the fact that we still have a FOV, you wouldn't keep repeating the same pathetic lies which relies upon rejecting the fact that we do have a FOV.

So you saying we have a FOV is worthless and just shows how little integrity you have.

Making stuff up to suit and twisting is all you seem to do.
Projecting again I see.
You are the one who continually makes stuff up, like your fantasy that we magically only see 1 inch of any object when looking through a 1 inch tube.
And you then continually twist what other people say or just outright ignore it so you can pretend your fantasy is true.

Now again, what magic stops the blue line to prevent us having an actual FOV?
And what magic causes the RE to have a blend from light to dark?


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3313 on: January 26, 2021, 10:46:21 PM »
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

Perhaps that's because nobody can prove what you're saying, Scepti. Mind if I flower up the proceedings with some photos?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3314 on: January 26, 2021, 11:20:32 PM »
How is it even after a 5day ban has still not seen any movement in this tu-tube topic?
Because nobody can prove against what I'm saying.

Perhaps that's because nobody can prove what you're saying, Scepti. Mind if I flower up the proceedings with some photos?
I'm more than happy for any of you to prove whatever you think you can.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3315 on: January 26, 2021, 11:59:26 PM »
I'm more than happy for any of you to prove whatever you think you can.
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Again, what magic what stops the blue line?
Again, what magic causes the round Earth to magically have a blend from light to dark.
Because until you come up with an answer I have proven that you are wrong.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3316 on: January 27, 2021, 12:01:21 AM »
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Then ensure there's no twisting or trickery. Make it so I can't criticise.
If you can't do that then you have no case.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 12:03:18 AM by sceptimatic »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3317 on: January 27, 2021, 12:02:42 AM »

I'm more than happy for any of you to prove whatever you think you can.
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Again, what magic what stops the blue line?
Again, what magic causes the round Earth to magically have a blend from light to dark.
Because until you come up with an answer I have proven that you are wrong.
Then ensure there's no twisting or trickery. Make it so I can't criticise.
I have.
You have no criticism of the logical argument.
Instead all you do is continually ignore it.
Unlike the evidence that you just dismiss as fake, you can't do the same for a logical argument.

Again, what magic what stops the blue line?
Again, what magic causes the round Earth to magically have a blend from light to dark.
Because until you come up with an answer I have proven that you are wrong.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3318 on: January 27, 2021, 12:04:19 AM »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3319 on: January 27, 2021, 01:09:22 AM »

I have.

No, you haven't.
And just like I said, you just ignore it.

Again, see this diagram:

It clearly shows the problem.
Again, what magic stops the blue line?
Until you have an answer, you have been proven wrong.

The fact you continue to ignore it rather than even trying to respond shows that.

Now grow up and either answer the question or admit you have no answer and have been shown that you are wrong.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3320 on: January 27, 2021, 04:01:51 AM »

I have.

No, you haven't.
And just like I said, you just ignore it.

Again, see this diagram:

It clearly shows the problem.
Again, what magic stops the blue line?
Until you have an answer, you have been proven wrong.

The fact you continue to ignore it rather than even trying to respond shows that.

Now grow up and either answer the question or admit you have no answer and have been shown that you are wrong.
There is no problem. You made a diagram making out the blue line has meaning.
It does if you're using a scope. A telescope or your naked eye. Are you? .....Because, if you are then you're twisting the issue when you know fine well I'm arguing the 1 inch diameter tube.


I have also stated you have to be looking level through a crosshair not angled down from the top of the back of the tube to the bottom of the front.

What you claim to see is in your mind, unless you are using naked eye or telescope.

So which is it?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3321 on: January 27, 2021, 04:31:30 AM »
I'm more than happy for any of you to prove whatever you think you can.
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Again, what magic what stops the blue line?
Again, what magic causes the round Earth to magically have a blend from light to dark.
Because until you come up with an answer I have proven that you are wrong.

Exaclty

PROVE it yourself sceppy for all to see and remove all doubt.
If youre right this would be mind blowing.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3322 on: January 27, 2021, 04:32:18 AM »
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Then ensure there's no twisting or trickery. Make it so I can't criticise.
If you can't do that then you have no case.

The only one who can do that is you.
You are happy with you and only you know what you want.
Show to us.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3323 on: January 27, 2021, 05:15:35 AM »
And then to completely ignore it or just dismiss it as fake.

Then ensure there's no twisting or trickery. Make it so I can't criticise.
If you can't do that then you have no case.

If you would just show your own experiment we could settle this once and for all. Why are you afraid to show your photos? If you are so sure you are right, what is there to worry about?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3324 on: January 27, 2021, 09:03:25 AM »
What would it take for you to change your mind, whichever side you're on?

Well in general the burden of proof is on the FE community. But I'll give you some stuff to go on.
1st: If the Earth is flat why does the hull of a ship disappear before the mast?
2nd: If the Earth is flat, by what mechanism does gravity exist? (btw saying gravity is a theory is proof that you don't understand the scientific method, just look at the Cavendish experiment which is performed by ALL physics undergrads).
3rd:  If the Earth is flat and, by extension, most of the modern astrophysics is wrong, what the fuck do astrophysicists do? Are all of them in collusion with the government? I'm studying astrophysics right now, am I going to be indoctrinated?

Just some food for thought.

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Mattathome

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3325 on: January 27, 2021, 09:36:17 AM »
          
Seeking Truth, but refusal to believe...that is paradoxitradalsensationimorbididiocyalism.


Why are you clicking that?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3326 on: January 27, 2021, 11:45:34 AM »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3327 on: January 27, 2021, 12:27:06 PM »
And just like I said, you just ignore it.
Again, see this diagram:

It clearly shows the problem.
Again, what magic stops the blue line?
Until you have an answer, you have been proven wrong.
The fact you continue to ignore it rather than even trying to respond shows that.
Now grow up and either answer the question or admit you have no answer and have been shown that you are wrong.
There is no problem. You made a diagram making out the blue line has meaning.
There is a massive problem for you, which you are yet to address.
All you can do is continually ignore the problem and pretend I am saying or doing things I aren't. You have no actual criticism against his disproof of your nonsense.

This shows what happens when you have a simple tube without a lens.
This shows how the tube restricts your FOV.

Each of the thick coloured lines has a very significant meaning, showing a possible path of light.
We can easily see that the orange line must pass through the wall of the tube in order to reach your eye. Assuming the tube is opaque this means the beam of light represented by the orange line cannot reach your eye and instead it will be blocked by the wall of the tube.

Conversely, we can easily see how the red, green and blue lines do not intersect the wall.
There is nothing in their way to stop them, nor is there a lens to deflect them and thus they can reach the eye.
The red lines are the limit, the edge of the FOV you have through a tube.
This means you FOV is the region bounded by the 2 red lines.

The blue line is in that region. Again, there is nothing to stop light travelling along it from reaching your eye.
This means that light can travel from below the level of the tube and go up and into your eye. This can allow you to see the ground, even when looking level, even on some downwards slopes, depending on the FOV of the tube and the gradient of the slope.

It does if you're using a scope. A telescope or your naked eye. Are you?
No, it is a simple tube.
Again, if you would like an example with a scope, then an extreme example would be this:


Notice the lens shown in grey which bends the light?
That is what you need for your nonsense to be correct.

I have also stated you have to be looking level through a crosshair not angled down from the top of the back of the tube to the bottom of the front.
It is quite clear that in this diagram the eye is centred.
It is looking directly level.
But because it has a FOV it also sees above and below level.

What you claim to see is in your mind, unless you are using naked eye or telescope.
So which is it?
Neither.
It is simply that you are wrong, and you are looking for whatever excuse you can to dismiss this logical proof that you are wrong, when you have no criticism of it at all and thus need to invent criticism when it clearly has no place.

Everyone can see that this diagram has a tube, and thus it is not merely the naked eye.
Everyone can see that there is no lens, and thus it is not a scope.
Yet you play dumb and act like both could be the case.

You play dumb and pretend that the lines have no meaning, when they have been explained to you repeatedly.

You play dumb and pretend that the eye isn't looking level, and instead want to pretend it is somehow looking from the top of the tube when the image clearly has it in the middle.

There is no twisting or trickery by me.
The only attempts at that are by you, trying to use whatever dishonest BS you can to dismiss the fact that you are wrong.

And you have no criticism of it. The only "criticism" you provide is of your strawmen.

The valid criticism you could make against this requires you to explain what magic stops the light indicated by the blue line from reaching the eye.
Without such criticism, you are wrong.

So there you have it, simple proof that you are wrong with no twisting or trickery (except the attempts by you) and which you cannot criticise.

You are wrong. It's time for you to grow up, accept that you are wrong, and move on.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3328 on: January 27, 2021, 12:30:24 PM »
          

You beat me to it. I see you prefer the double length rolls! I always find those ones don't roll as easily on the spool, and you have to manually turn the roll to get your length of paper. Very annoying when you're in a rush.  >:(

But, your use of the roll with the full length of paper still on, is the correct way to perform the experiment. The resident toilet roll peeping experts, aka sceptimatic and JJA, will argue otherwise. I believe that's because they both enjoy performing the experiment naked in public places. Without the paper, it's a lot less weight for their morning glory to hold up, after they've slipped the roll on, to rest between experiments.  8)

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Mattathome

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3329 on: January 27, 2021, 08:40:32 PM »
You beat me to it. I see you prefer the double length rolls! I always find those ones don't roll as easily on the spool, and you have to manually turn the roll to get your length of paper. Very annoying when you're in a rush.  >:(

True indeed good sir!  I however, refuse to use the spool and keep the toilet paper with in easy reach at all times having experienced many the unfortunate emergency toilet paper situation.

But, your use of the roll with the full length of paper still on, is the correct way to perform the experiment. The resident toilet roll peeping experts, aka sceptimatic and JJA, will argue otherwise. I believe that's because they both enjoy performing the experiment naked in public places. Without the paper, it's a lot less weight for their morning glory to hold up, after they've slipped the roll on, to rest between experiments.  8)

The nakedness is perhaps akin to the efficiency of performing all of these Tube Viewing experiments.  Having the need for so many empty tubes would elude to the excessive amount of ass-wiping required in the name of science.  Clothing would only get in the way.  That said, I would recommend the Charmin brand of toilet paper.  The double-ply strength and superior texture help prevent chafing as I'm sure there there is no end in sight to this particular Tube Viewing debate. 
Seeking Truth, but refusal to believe...that is paradoxitradalsensationimorbididiocyalism.


Why are you clicking that?