What would change your mind?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3120 on: January 18, 2021, 10:15:20 PM »


If you truly accepted that we have a FOV, and wanted that to be a refutation of the RE, you would show an angular FOV, like this one:


That is why your diagram is garbage. WE DO NOT SEE IN 1D.
We have a FOV. This FOV allows us to see the hill.

Don't waste your time going through that " oh we don't see in 1D nonsense. You're not gaining anything by doing it and you know fine well I'm showing a simple diagram and leaving it up to the genuine people to see it for what it is, not for what you pretend it isn't.

Your diagram is using the naked eye to gain your FOV.
Why do you neglect the simple tube with no curved lens?

I implore anyone to go out with a simple tube and look level over their street or field and tell me they can see the ground under their tube vision.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3121 on: January 18, 2021, 10:25:11 PM »
Since I can't go outside, lets take a crack at another claim.

The claim that you can't see the edge of a ball you are standing on.

I don't have a ball big enough to stand on (not here anyway but I've stood on one before) but I do have a globe and a camera I can put the lens up to.  So here is the view from on top of a globe.

That certainly looks like an edge to me. Or a horizon, as we like to call it on my planet. But I'm sure skeptimatic has a bunch of photos he took that he can use to show us what a real globe through a camera looks like.

( Huh, I need to dust more. )


After all this you seriously go right back to a camera on a small ball and think you're proving something?

Let's try something better.
Instead of a camera that has a a lens that allows a wide FOV, try setting up a level straw on that globe and looking through it, then come back and show me the edge.

Also, why in the hell would you argue for an edge on a supposed global Earth when you know the atmosphere on the real Earth obscures a view at short distance?

If you are genuine in what you're trying to do then I sit here bemused.
If you are doing it for reasons that I suspect, then I 'm ok with it because I understand the desperation of keeping a globe in the head of the already indoctrinated.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3122 on: January 18, 2021, 10:37:07 PM »


If you truly accepted that we have a FOV, and wanted that to be a refutation of the RE, you would show an angular FOV, like this one:


That is why your diagram is garbage. WE DO NOT SEE IN 1D.
We have a FOV. This FOV allows us to see the hill.

Don't waste your time going through that " oh we don't see in 1D nonsense. You're not gaining anything by doing it and you know fine well I'm showing a simple diagram and leaving it up to the genuine people to see it for what it is, not for what you pretend it isn't.

Your diagram is using the naked eye to gain your FOV.
Why do you neglect the simple tube with no curved lens?

I implore anyone to go out with a simple tube and look level over their street or field and tell me they can see the ground under their tube vision.

Yes
Can anyone Anyone go out and do it?
You go do it.

Or draw it to scale
Or let us know why your drawing cant be done to scale?

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3123 on: January 18, 2021, 10:41:56 PM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:





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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3124 on: January 18, 2021, 11:48:03 PM »


If you truly accepted that we have a FOV, and wanted that to be a refutation of the RE, you would show an angular FOV, like this one:


That is why your diagram is garbage. WE DO NOT SEE IN 1D.
We have a FOV. This FOV allows us to see the hill.

Don't waste your time going through that " oh we don't see in 1D nonsense. You're not gaining anything by doing it and you know fine well I'm showing a simple diagram and leaving it up to the genuine people to see it for what it is, not for what you pretend it isn't.

Your diagram is using the naked eye to gain your FOV.
Why do you neglect the simple tube with no curved lens?

I implore anyone to go out with a simple tube and look level over their street or field and tell me they can see the ground under their tube vision.

Yes
Can anyone Anyone go out and do it?
You go do it.

Or draw it to scale
Or let us know why your drawing cant be done to scale?
Not sure if you're capable but if you are, I suggest you get a tube and look through your window with the tube as level as you believe it to be. Now tell me you can see the floor. You can't. You simply can't do it.
You can if you use a scope or your naked eye.

Just try it. Don;t waste your time trying to argue something with me that I know already.
Prove it to yourself, not to me.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3125 on: January 18, 2021, 11:52:29 PM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that. 

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3126 on: January 19, 2021, 12:01:21 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3127 on: January 19, 2021, 12:02:30 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

lol.  You never fail to disappoint. 

Keep pretending. 


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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3128 on: January 19, 2021, 12:03:29 AM »
Don't waste your time going through that " oh we don't see in 1D nonsense.
Maybe once you stop pretending we do.
That would mean accepting we see an angular range, rather than just a line.

you know fine well I'm showing a simple diagram and leaving it up to the genuine people to see it for what it is
No, you are presenting an extremely dishonest diagram, which in no way represents reality and which has a blatantly false conclusion on it.

If you did it accurately, you would have an angular FOV, rather than the line, because we don't see in 1D.
This would then show how even on a hill, you can still see it, and how even after Earth rotates, you can still see the sun. and you can still see the bulding.

Your entire diagram is based upon the false premise that we only see 1D, a single line extending from our eye;  which is pure BS.

Your diagram is using the naked eye to gain your FOV.
Why do you neglect the simple tube with no curved lens?
STOP LYING!
That diagram of mine is using the FOV expected through a tube. It is a FOV of 10 degrees. The FOV for the naked eye is ~180 degrees, much much larger.

It is an accurate, too scale diagram, of what you actually expect when looking through a tube. I even provided the dimensions of the tube before.

Again, what you are suggesting, this garbage:

requires a lens.
See the little grey thing? That is a lens.
This lens bends the light.
Rather than the light continuing straight as it would without a lens, this lens bends the parallel rays of light such that they converge on the eye. This also bends like that would otherwise strike the eye making it so it doesn't.

Without such a lens you instead have a setup like this:

The orange line is stopped by the tube.
But the blue line travels straight, going straight to the eye.
The blue line can be anywhere in the region bounded by the 2 red lines.
Anywhere in that region allows the light to travel straight to the eye with no obstruction.
Those red lines are the actual FOV you get from that tube.

You not liking that has no bearing on reality.

If you wish to assert your garbage is correct you need to explain what magic stops the blue line and what magic causes the parallel lines to curve and hit your eye.

I implore anyone to go out with a simple tube and look level over their street or field and tell me they can see the ground under their tube vision.
Again, a much simpler test to show you are spouting BS.
Tape a piece of paper to a wall. Get your tube, put it up against the sheet of paper and draw a circle around it, touching the tube all the way (the closer the better).

Now stand back from the page, a few m between the end of the tube and the paper should be plenty, and then look at the page through the tube, making sure it is centred on the circle.

If your outright lies were correct, you wouldn't even see the circle.
But in reality, you can easily see the circle, and much more.
This shows conclusively that your vision is not magically bound by the physical size of the tube, and instead is bound by the angular size.

You can also use tubes of different length (or have them a different distance from your eye, and see how the FOV changes with distance. That wouldn't happen if you could only see the physical size of the tube, rather than the angular size of the end.

Again, another simple example is looking at a house, or any object known to be larger than the tube.
If your BS was correct, you would only see a tiny portion of it. But the simple fact is you can see more of it the further away it is.

And if it is so easy, why do you continually refuse?


And again you ignore the question: Why do you falsely claim that the RE should have a blend from light to dark rather than a clear edge like so many other observed balls?

It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.
Tunnel vision, or normal tunnel vision, works based upon angles, just like all FOVs.
Light continues to travel in a straight line, as there is nothing to deflect it.
This gives you an angular FOV.

But your magic BS tunnel vision magically changes into a line.

That's why it is magic.

If you want to say it isn't magic you need to explain why it magically becomes a line and what magically stops the blue line.
2 things you are completely incapable of doing.

There's nothing complicated about the set up I've put forward.
Yes there is.
You want to precisely line up 3 sets of cross hairs, where 2 of these sets need adjustment based upon angle and height.

You managed it with what I mentioned.
He managed the much simpler version, with a single tube, which is easy to level and set up as you don't need precise alignment with another object.
He successfully demonstrated that you were wrong, and that a tube doesn't magically prevent you from seeing things above and below it.

Even without the hill, the ruler clearly demonstrates you can see above and below.
Trying to appeal to it being angled downwards just makes the section above harder to see.

Any honest normal thinking person can prove to themselves what I've put forward.
You mean they can prove it is pure BS, like several honest, normal thinking people here have done.

Plumb bobs, multiple tubes, crosshairs, pencils... nothing at all absurd. ::)
They're only absurd to people like you because they show you up.
No, absurd to any sane person.
A plumbob is used to establish a vertical level, not a horizontal one. Attaching anything to it can affect that level.
Adding additional tubes just serves to further complicate the experiment due to alignment issues.
It won't magically make it so they can't point down.

Everything you are suggesting just needlessly complicates the experiment. It in no way establishes that the tubes are level anymore than a single tube.

Do the experiment and shut me up.
He already did. You then called him a liar, dismissed his experiment as faked and put more ridiculous demands on your experiment.
And you refuse to outline everything that is needed such that when such an experiment proves you wrong you will just accept it. Instead you always demand to be allowed room to just dismiss the experiment because it shows you are wrong.

So how about YOU do the experiment?

Or even better, forget the experiment and stick to the logic.

You don't have a field of view like that through a tube, so why are you using it?
And there you go lying yet again. We do have a FOV like that. (And yet you claim that you accept that we do have a FOV through the tube and never claim we don't).
Because remember, a FOV covers an angular range. So the only question is how large it should be.

Just what is wrong with it?
The scale?

Or is it just that like so many other things, it shows you are spouting pure BS?

Would you like me to make the lines smaller so you can't see them?
No, we would like you to draw in a FOV, to scale, rather than just a line.
If you don't want it to scale and instead want the person much higher above Earth, then you need a correspondingly much larger FOV.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 12:07:32 AM by JackBlack »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3129 on: January 19, 2021, 12:05:51 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

lol.  You never fail to disappoint. 

Keep pretending.
There is no pretence, it's there in your face. Ask the person who put up the picture, if you need clarity.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3130 on: January 19, 2021, 12:11:34 AM »
After all this you seriously go right back to a camera on a small ball and think you're proving something?
Yes, as any sane person would.
Clearly showing you see an edge. Not this blend from light to dark BS you claim with no justification at all.

It has nothing to do with your lies regarding your magic tunnel vision.

Also, why in the hell would you argue for an edge on a supposed global Earth when you know the atmosphere on the real Earth obscures a view at short distance?
Because that "short distance" is typically hundreds of km, not the few km to the horizon.

If that was going to be an issue it would be an issue on your flat fantasy as well, and instead of a nice clear horizon we would see a blur, or a blend from light to dark.
The fact that we see a clear horizon shows that the atmosphere blocking light is not an issue.

I suggest you get a tube and look through your window with the tube as level as you believe it to be. Now tell me you can see the floor.
The floor of my house? No, that is on the other side of the tube. But the ground outside? YES!

Why don't you try it?

You can if you use a scope or your naked eye.
And if you can with a scope or your naked eye, you certainly can with a tube.

Your naked eye has a very large FOV, roughly 180 degrees.
A tube has a much smaller one, depending on the size of the tube.
A scope is made with a lens to give you a much smaller FOV, but make it appear larger.
This means the tube is between the scope and the naked eye.
So if you can see it with both of them, you certainly can see it with the tube.

Prove it to yourself, not to me.
We already have.
Perhaps you should start trying to prove your lies?

There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.
It isn't difficult to imagine your outright denial of reality.

There is no pretence, it's there in your face.
The horizon is there, in your face. Yet you claim it doesn't exist in that photo.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3131 on: January 19, 2021, 12:11:46 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

Wait. Now I'm confused. You say that on a Globe Earth you don't see a horizon. Then for this picture you're saying that you don't see a horizon. So that means this image, according to your logic, is showing a Globe Earth.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3132 on: January 19, 2021, 12:13:37 AM »

No, you are presenting an extremely dishonest diagram, which in no way represents reality and which has a blatantly false conclusion on it.

I'm not presenting a dishonest diagram, at all.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3133 on: January 19, 2021, 12:15:40 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

Wait. Now I'm confused. You say that on a Globe Earth you don't see a horizon. Then for this picture you're saying that you don't see a horizon. So that means this image, according to your logic, is showing a Globe Earth.
You're getting very desperate. I can see you're looking for the usual back patting.
I'm sitting back smirking at your silly post.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3134 on: January 19, 2021, 12:30:30 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

Wait. Now I'm confused. You say that on a Globe Earth you don't see a horizon. Then for this picture you're saying that you don't see a horizon. So that means this image, according to your logic, is showing a Globe Earth.
You're getting very desperate. I can see you're looking for the usual back patting.
I'm sitting back smirking at your silly post.

Just using your own logic.

In any case. It appears that we have a lot of evidence that looking through a tube lets you still see the ground. And not this magic tunnel vision you've concocted. So that argument of yours is moot and debunked. Moving on. Unless you'd like to present some evidence to the contrary.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3135 on: January 19, 2021, 12:42:41 AM »


As you stated, if you use a tube that creates a MagicTunnel vision, that would be true. 


It's not a magic tunnel vision, it is a tunnel vision.

Here's some magic tunnel vision:



I like this one best.  The horizon is clearly lower than the midline, so it can not be pointed down, and yet we can see a downward sloping road in the distance. 

Imagine that.
There is no horizon in that picture. Imagine that.

lol.  You never fail to disappoint. 

Keep pretending.
There is no pretence, it's there in your face. Ask the person who put up the picture, if you need clarity.

Sceptimatic, why dont you drop the pretense and simply admit you were wrong about how you though vision works through a tube.  I know you feel you will lose face, but being able to admit you are wrong is actually a strength, not a weakness.  EVERYONE knows you are wrong. Everyone. Even you. It is as clear as the holographic sun in the sky on a bright blue day. 

Just move on. Okay, you lost this one.  Bad.  Spectacularly even.  But learning from failure is what people do to grow and progress. 

No one will think less of you for simply acknowledging the facts and stopping this silly pretense about MagicTunnel vision. 


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Timeisup

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3136 on: January 19, 2021, 12:48:43 AM »
You saying you have provided an explanation is false.
No, it is quite true.
Again, the pasting pictures on your roof was just to make it simple enough for you to understand.

Do you not agree that things look different depending on what angle you view it from?

What exactly are you claiming is nonsense?
Your claim that the moon appearing upside down in the southern hemisphere is proof that Earth is round.

And yes, I know you didn't explicitly claim that, but it was clear that that was your implication.

..... so what your saying is the incremental change in the appearance of the moon while moving down a line of longitude is not proof of a spherical earth, and those very same observations could be made on a flat earth. Is that what you are claiming?....while at the same time also causing the night sky to rotate. Remember the moon is only one part of the night sky, the dominant one, but for an observer moving along a line of longitude the whole shooting match changes, moon, stars, planets, observable galaxies..... everything..... and you claim this can all happen in a flat earth, your proof gleaned from pasting pictures on your ceiling!
Please explain how the actual rotation of the heavens happens incrementally when moving from one side of your flat earth to the next.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3137 on: January 19, 2021, 12:51:16 AM »
I'm not presenting a dishonest diagram, at all.
Again, your use of a line instead of an actual FOV shows that you are presenting a dishonest diagram.

Again, if your diagram was honest, instead of those pathetic lines you would have something like this:


Again, if you wish to continue your lie and pretend it is justified at all, rather than dishonest garbage, you need to tell us what magic stops the blue line.

You have been provided with plenty of ways to show your claims are BS, and you refuse to do any of them.
It is literally your outright lie against everything else.

Likewise, if you wish to continue with your lie and pretend the RE can't possibly have a horizon, you need to tell us what magic causes it to be a blend from light to dark instead.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3138 on: January 19, 2021, 12:52:23 AM »
incremental change
What incremental change?
You were just appealing to the moon being upside down in the southern hemisphere.
Stick to that argument rather than trying to mend it once it has fallen to pieces.

What was wrong with my explanation for why the moon appears to be upside down in the southern hemisphere for a FE?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3139 on: January 19, 2021, 02:04:02 AM »
After all this you seriously go right back to a camera on a small ball and think you're proving something?
Yes, as any sane person would.
Clearly showing you see an edge. Not this blend from light to dark BS you claim with no justification at all.


If you think you can see an edge to your global Earth then you carry on with that.
I know it's utter nonsense and so will many.


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3140 on: January 19, 2021, 02:09:15 AM »


Just using your own logic.

In any case. It appears that we have a lot of evidence that looking through a tube lets you still see the ground. And not this magic tunnel vision you've concocted. So that argument of yours is moot and debunked. Moving on. Unless you'd like to present some evidence to the contrary.
Of course there's a lot of evidence that looking through a tube will allow you to see ground.
The issue is in the angle of the tube and the run of the ground.
And this is where the clap trap comes in with people like you pretending it's all level on a downward gradient.
It's laughable.

I wouldn't bother arguing this if I hadn't checked it all out myself.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3141 on: January 19, 2021, 02:10:05 AM »


Sceptimatic, why dont you drop the pretense and simply admit you were wrong about how you though vision works through a tube.  I know you feel you will lose face, but being able to admit you are wrong is actually a strength, not a weakness.  EVERYONE knows you are wrong. Everyone. Even you. It is as clear as the holographic sun in the sky on a bright blue day. 

Just move on. Okay, you lost this one.  Bad.  Spectacularly even.  But learning from failure is what people do to grow and progress. 

No one will think less of you for simply acknowledging the facts and stopping this silly pretense about MagicTunnel vision.
Take a leaf out of your own book with admittance.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3142 on: January 19, 2021, 02:12:05 AM »
I'm not presenting a dishonest diagram, at all.
Again, your use of a line instead of an actual FOV shows that you are presenting a dishonest diagram.

Again, if your diagram was honest, instead of those pathetic lines you would have something like this:


Again, if you wish to continue your lie and pretend it is justified at all, rather than dishonest garbage, you need to tell us what magic stops the blue line.

You have been provided with plenty of ways to show your claims are BS, and you refuse to do any of them.
It is literally your outright lie against everything else.

Likewise, if you wish to continue with your lie and pretend the RE can't possibly have a horizon, you need to tell us what magic causes it to be a blend from light to dark instead.
Ok let's straighten this up.

In your diagram, what distance is the bottom vision over the ground before it hits ground, in your opinion?

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3143 on: January 19, 2021, 02:15:42 AM »
If you think you can see an edge to your global Earth then you carry on with that.
I know it's utter nonsense and so will many.
You mean you continually assert that it is nonsense, with no justification at all.

Again, what would make the RE so magically special that it magically doesn't have an edge?
Every ball I have ever looked at has had a clear edge.
The only ones which have been at all difficult to see are ones made of glass.

Why should Earth be different?
What magic makes it have a light to dark blend instead?

Can you justify your lie at all?

And while you are it, can you tell us what magic stops the blue line from reaching the eye, or provide a diagram with an actual FOV, rather than pretending we only see a line?

Of course there's a lot of evidence that looking through a tube will allow you to see ground.
The issue is in the angle of the tube and the run of the ground.
If you angle it straight up, you will find it hard. But if you have it level, you will almost certainly see the ground.

And this is where the clap trap comes in with people like you pretending it's all level on a downward gradient.
It's laughable.
You mean with people like you pretending you magically see in a line; continually avoiding extremely simple questions and refusing to justify your outright lies in any way?

Again, just what do you think is happening with the ruler?
If it is tilted down to see the lower numbers, how does it have any chance at seeing the higher numbers?

It simply only works if you see more than the physical size of the tube.

I wouldn't bother arguing this if I hadn't checked it all out myself.
Technically correct. Arguing would require you to actually justify your claims and engage with the refutation of them in a meaningful manner, such as either accepting it or explaining what is wrong with the refutation.

You aren't arguing. You are just spouting the same refuted BS again and again.

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3144 on: January 19, 2021, 02:28:47 AM »
In your diagram, what distance is the bottom vision over the ground before it hits ground, in your opinion?
I don't remember exactly. I know it was between 20 and 30 m. I think it was 23 m.
This was based upon a tube which gives a FOV of 10 degrees, with an elevation of 2 m.

Redoing the math shows that the FOV of 10 degrees would mean it would hit a flat, level surface on a hypothetical FE, after 22.86 m.

On a RE, the drop over that distance (which is  would be a mere 0.74 arc seconds), is a mere 4 micrometres.

After 23 m, the 10 degree FOV has dropped by 2.01m, and the drop is still 4 micrometres.

As for the tube, one such setup (potentially the one I used) was a 4 cm wide tube with a length of 23 cm, which gives a FOV of 9.94 degrees.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3145 on: January 19, 2021, 02:41:48 AM »


Again, what would make the RE so magically special that it magically doesn't have an edge?

Ok, you look out to sea. Tell me where your edge is?
Do you seriously think it's at the end of your global diameter?
Or would you go along with your edge being theoretical due to atmospheric impairments to your vision?

Quote from: JackBlack
Every ball I have ever looked at has had a clear edge.

You have never seen any real edge on any ball. You can have a theoretical edge to your ball but , if you were to run your finger around it, you would never feel any edge and never see any physical edge.
Do you agree with this?

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3146 on: January 19, 2021, 02:45:30 AM »
In your diagram, what distance is the bottom vision over the ground before it hits ground, in your opinion?
I don't remember exactly. I know it was between 20 and 30 m. I think it was 23 m.
This was based upon a tube which gives a FOV of 10 degrees, with an elevation of 2 m.

Redoing the math shows that the FOV of 10 degrees would mean it would hit a flat, level surface on a hypothetical FE, after 22.86 m.

On a RE, the drop over that distance (which is  would be a mere 0.74 arc seconds), is a mere 4 micrometres.

After 23 m, the 10 degree FOV has dropped by 2.01m, and the drop is still 4 micrometres.

As for the tube, one such setup (potentially the one I used) was a 4 cm wide tube with a length of 23 cm, which gives a FOV of 9.94 degrees.
Let me see if I've got this right from your explanation.
So, you're saying that, on a FE your ground comes into view at around 22.86 metres but, if it was on your globe it would be 4 micrometres?

How about you explain what the hell all this means for this dummy you're talking to.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3147 on: January 19, 2021, 02:46:35 AM »


Sceptimatic, why dont you drop the pretense and simply admit you were wrong about how you though vision works through a tube.  I know you feel you will lose face, but being able to admit you are wrong is actually a strength, not a weakness.  EVERYONE knows you are wrong. Everyone. Even you. It is as clear as the holographic sun in the sky on a bright blue day. 

Just move on. Okay, you lost this one.  Bad.  Spectacularly even.  But learning from failure is what people do to grow and progress. 

No one will think less of you for simply acknowledging the facts and stopping this silly pretense about MagicTunnel vision.
Take a leaf out of your own book with admittance.

Sure! I'm often wrong. 

For example - for some reason I keep thinking that you have to possess some kernel of logic in between the muddled and confused thoughts.  Some ability to understand others, and some ability to piece together a small number of cohesive thoughts into a logical argument that you can hold together for any length of time and try to build on. 

Unfortunately, I am wrong in these thoughts. 

But that means I try to learn and grow from being wrong.  Hence, I know there is no point in spending any time arguing against such irrationality, you are entitled to your own private little craziness with little complaint from myself.   I can simply make a simple comment here or there, or just sit back and laugh at the continued banter between impotent self righteous delusion and hard reality. 

All the best!

*

JackBlack

  • 21870
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3148 on: January 19, 2021, 02:58:38 AM »
Ok, you look out to sea. Tell me where your edge is?
The horizon.
That's the point you keep on running from.

Do you seriously think it's at the end of your global diameter?
Do you mean directly opposite from me? If so, no.

Quote from: JackBlack
Every ball I have ever looked at has had a clear edge.
You have never seen any real edge on any ball.
And now you are just trying to play semantics.
I don't care if you want to pretend the edge is real vs theoretical or the like.
What is important is that there is a clear separation. It is clear where the ball ends and the surroundings begin.

Why should this be different between the RE and any other ball?

It being a continuous curve so you don't feel a sharp change in curvature or direction doesn't mean it doesn't have an edge.

*

JackBlack

  • 21870
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3149 on: January 19, 2021, 03:06:34 AM »
In your diagram, what distance is the bottom vision over the ground before it hits ground, in your opinion?
I don't remember exactly. I know it was between 20 and 30 m. I think it was 23 m.
This was based upon a tube which gives a FOV of 10 degrees, with an elevation of 2 m.

Redoing the math shows that the FOV of 10 degrees would mean it would hit a flat, level surface on a hypothetical FE, after 22.86 m.

On a RE, the drop over that distance (which is  would be a mere 0.74 arc seconds), is a mere 4 micrometres.

After 23 m, the 10 degree FOV has dropped by 2.01m, and the drop is still 4 micrometres.

As for the tube, one such setup (potentially the one I used) was a 4 cm wide tube with a length of 23 cm, which gives a FOV of 9.94 degrees.
Let me see if I've got this right from your explanation.
So, you're saying that, on a FE your ground comes into view at around 22.86 metres but, if it was on your globe it would be 4 micrometres?
No, I'm saying on a RE, the ground would have dropped by 4 micrometres over this distance.

So on a FE, the distance between straight out level (i.e. following a straight line, where at your eye, this line is level) from your eyes and the ground is 2 m, but on a RE, it is 2.000004 m. (where RE has an extra 4 micrometres)

The point of that was that for all practical purposes, the ability to see level ground through such a tube is the same with a flat Earth, or a round Earth with a radius of 6371 km (and that is just 1 particular number. If the radius is larger it would also hold, and depending on how accurately you can set it up, it will also hold for a smaller radius to some limit).

The curvature of Earth is so insignificant over this distance, that it may as well be flat (for the purpose of seeing the ground through a level tube).

And this is why that diagram is a too scale drawing for both a RE and a FE. Each pixel in that diagram is 2 cm. So 4 micrometres would be 0.0002 pixels.

Or to express it differently, in order to see the difference between a FE and a RE at that scale, each pixel would need to be 4 micrometres, so the 2 m height would need to be 500 000 px, making it quite a large image.