# What would change your mind?

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#### JackBlack

• 15775
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1830 on: December 08, 2020, 03:42:28 AM »
I should just link you to the video where this is explained and again you forgot that the moon is going around the earth and that takes one month so part of the moon will go behind the earth. (What you say would be true if the moon stays in front of the earth and only goes behind twise a year (year has 12 months)
Sure, try linking me to a video explaining how the phases of the moon are caused by Earth's shadow.
Make sure the video includes a diagram like mine, but shows how Earth's shadow causes the phases.
While you are at it explain how the time the moon is most likely to be in Earth's shadow it is the fullest and when it is least likely to be in Earth's shadow it is the newest/empties.

What I am saying is true regardless of if the moon orbits Earth or not.
The simple fact is that the phases of the moon are not caused by Earth's shadow.
We can measure the angular separation between the sun and the moon fairly easily. This allows us to tell that there is no possible way for the Earth to cast a shadow onto the moon unless it is a full moon. That means the Earth's shadow cannot cause the moon to appear a a crescent.

The only thing on the moon caused by Earth's shadow is a lunar eclipse, when the moon actually passes through Earth's shadow.
And it only has the chance to actually go into Earth's shadow for 2 periods each year, as the moon's orbit is not in the same plane as Earth's orbit.

The Moon's orbit is roughly 350 000 to 400 000 km away.
Being generous and taking it at 400 000 km away, Earth's penumbra is only ~16500 km wide.
(At 350 000 km it is only ~16 000 km wide).
The Moon has a radius of ~1737 km So if the centre of the moon is roughly 10000 km above perfect alignment, it will not go into Earth's shadow at all.
That corresponds to roughly 1.6 degrees (or 3.2 if you include up and down).

In general, during a full moon, the moon isn't directly behind Earth.

That means if the moon is 1.5 degrees above or below a perfect alignment, it will not pass through the penumbra.

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#### JackBlack

• 15775
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1831 on: December 08, 2020, 03:45:34 AM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.

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#### JoLetus

• 6
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1832 on: December 08, 2020, 04:29:27 AM »
I should just link you to the video where this is explained and again you forgot that the moon is going around the earth and that takes one month so part of the moon will go behind the earth. (What you say would be true if the moon stays in front of the earth and only goes behind twise a year (year has 12 months)
Sure, try linking me to a video explaining how the phases of the moon are caused by Earth's shadow.
Make sure the video includes a diagram like mine, but shows how Earth's shadow causes the phases.
While you are at it explain how the time the moon is most likely to be in Earth's shadow it is the fullest and when it is least likely to be in Earth's shadow it is the newest/empties.

What I am saying is true regardless of if the moon orbits Earth or not.
The simple fact is that the phases of the moon are not caused by Earth's shadow.
We can measure the angular separation between the sun and the moon fairly easily. This allows us to tell that there is no possible way for the Earth to cast a shadow onto the moon unless it is a full moon. That means the Earth's shadow cannot cause the moon to appear a a crescent.

The only thing on the moon caused by Earth's shadow is a lunar eclipse, when the moon actually passes through Earth's shadow.
And it only has the chance to actually go into Earth's shadow for 2 periods each year, as the moon's orbit is not in the same plane as Earth's orbit.

The Moon's orbit is roughly 350 000 to 400 000 km away.
Being generous and taking it at 400 000 km away, Earth's penumbra is only ~16500 km wide.
(At 350 000 km it is only ~16 000 km wide).
The Moon has a radius of ~1737 km So if the centre of the moon is roughly 10000 km above perfect alignment, it will not go into Earth's shadow at all.
That corresponds to roughly 1.6 degrees (or 3.2 if you include up and down).

In general, during a full moon, the moon isn't directly behind Earth.

That means if the moon is 1.5 degrees above or below a perfect alignment, it will not pass through the penumbra.

Just looked it up and reliesed that lunar eclipse is exactly what i was trying to tell and didint just know the name ( because im from finland and dont really speak english )
Its called "kuunpimennys" in finnish

And if you dont try to proof earth flat then we are on same side and we should not waste our time

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1833 on: December 08, 2020, 08:09:50 AM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.
That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.

#### Stash

• 7613
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1834 on: December 08, 2020, 08:34:25 AM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.
That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.

So are you saying this:

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1835 on: December 08, 2020, 08:44:16 AM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.
That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.

So are you saying this:

Absolutely.

#### Stash

• 7613
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1836 on: December 08, 2020, 09:00:46 AM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.
That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.

So are you saying this:

Absolutely.

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

#### Smoke Machine

• 1808
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1837 on: December 08, 2020, 09:19:08 AM »
Sceptimatic, just ask your students to look through a telescope fixed to a horizontal position? That will achieve the same result - blue sky well above the horizon line.

In the meantime, Sceptimatic, re-familiarise yourself with the definitions of religion, doctrine, and indoctrination. Indoctrination means to teach a group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. You would argue that applies to the masses with globe earth, but I would argue all those flat earth videos are a form of indoctrination. The essential ingredient is critical thinking. Maybe that can be a new topic of debate?

Sceptimatic, do you feel you are being persecuted here for voicing your flat earth belief? You know, you could just post in the believers only section?

How many flat earth conventions have you attended do far?

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1838 on: December 08, 2020, 09:33:38 AM »

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

Scaled down, yes.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1839 on: December 08, 2020, 09:43:43 AM »
Sceptimatic, just ask your students to look through a telescope fixed to a horizontal position? That will achieve the same result - blue sky well above the horizon line.
Not sure what you're getting at with this.

Quote from: Smoke Machine
In the meantime, Sceptimatic, re-familiarise yourself with the definitions of religion, doctrine, and indoctrination. Indoctrination means to teach a group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. You would argue that applies to the masses with globe earth, but I would argue all those flat earth videos are a form of indoctrination.
Anything is indoctrination if something is ingrained into a persons mind with no acceptance of opposing view without consequence.
I'd say that firmly applies to the global indoctrination and mainstream so called scientific pushing of things that are not shown to be reality.

Quote from: Smoke Machine
The essential ingredient is critical thinking. Maybe that can be a new topic of debate?
Critical thinking is fine. Indoctrination in certain subjects, seem to forbid this by ridicule...etc.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
Sceptimatic, do you feel you are being persecuted here for voicing your flat earth belief?
Of course.... but I expect it. It's not an issue.

Quote from: Smoke Machine
You know, you could just post in the believers only section?
I could. You could also refuse to correspond with me.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
How many flat earth conventions have you attended do far?
None.

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#### Themightykabool

• 5353
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1840 on: December 08, 2020, 10:00:53 AM »
sceppy you are truly AMAZING!

watch the video.
let me know how much field of view is seen through this 1in sniper's scope at 500yards and the different levels of magnifications.
amazing!

#### Stash

• 7613
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1841 on: December 08, 2020, 10:18:28 AM »

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

Scaled down, yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "scaled down". But looking through the 1" tube, 100 meters away, you would still only be seeing 1"? Like this:

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#### Themightykabool

• 5353
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1842 on: December 08, 2020, 10:58:46 AM »
well i asume sceppy has use of a cell phone?
and that cell phone has a camera?
and he has a tube of paper towel available to him?

go outside
stick your camera up to the tube
take a photo
post it.
let's see what you're on about.

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#### JackBlack

• 15775
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1843 on: December 08, 2020, 01:05:51 PM »
Don't use angle down with level. It doesn't work for you, no matter how hard you try to make it work.
And again you appeal to a FOV of 0.
Remember, if you are looking level with a FOV greater than 0, then part of that will be angled down and part will be angled up.

Refusing to have any part angled down will never work, no matter how hard you try to make it work.

Again, here is a too scale diagram of the RE, with a FOV of 10 degrees. The observer is standing with the scope at 2 m above the surface:

See how the FOV has a part that is angled down and hits Earth?

I'd say the spinning global mindset is more of a religion, to be honest....so....no....you're not on the right track.
Why? It has none of the traits of a religion.
The spinning global mindset is based upon solid physical evidence and logical arguments.
The FE mindset is based upon repeatedly lying about what you would expect on the RE, outright rejection of rejection of physical evidence, repeatedly asserting the same refuted lies and refusing to rationally engage in any form of rational discord. If anything it is worse than religion.
That's a not your FOV through a 1 inch tube.
Stop just asserting the same pathetic lie.
That is the FOV through a 1 inch tube.
I did the math before showing that the FOV is roughly 10 degrees.
That image has been drawn with a FOV of 10 degrees.

All it takes is for you to get a tube, stand in a long hallway and look through it.
The fact that you can see the floor through that tube over such a short distance shows that your claims are pure BS.

Your field of vision is specific to the tube itself from the central point to the inner walls all around that tube.
You are not spanning out any wider than that.
Again, this is what the FOV through a tube looks like:

Notice how the lines start at the eye and then move outwards?
It hits the end of the outer tube and continues outwards.
That means when looking through a 1 inch tube, at something 2 m away, you see more than 1 inch.

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

Scaled down, yes.
So you have no idea at all how FOV/vision in general works.

You don't see in straight lines like that. You see based upon angles.
But once more, all it takes to disprove this is to look at something through the tube.
If you like, go up to a wall, hold the tube at eye level and draw a circle around the tube.
Then, walk away from the wall and look at it through the tube. Do you only see inside the circle on the wall, or do you see more?

Also, we are back to it not working at all on your FE either.
Notice how that 1 inch FOV remains roughly 2 m above the surface, all the time, never getting any closer.
That means if you truly believed this you would also believe that on the FE you don't see a horizon.
That is because no matter how far away you get, your FOV will never touch the ground.

Anything is indoctrination if something is ingrained into a persons mind with no acceptance of opposing view without consequence.
No, you do not need to accept opposing views in order for it to not be considered indoctrination.
You need to consider opposing views and the evidence and arguments for and against the position.

Considering those views, and realising they are BS means you don't need to accept them.
We don't need to accept your nonsenes to not be indoctrinated.

I'd say that firmly applies to the global indoctrination and mainstream so called scientific pushing of things that are not shown to be reality.
And what things would that be?
The RE has been shown to be reality beyond any sane doubt.
It is what all the evidence supports and FEers are unable to show any issue with it at all.
So that clearly isn't the case.

Critical thinking is fine. Indoctrination in certain subjects, seem to forbid this by ridicule...etc.
And in science, that is allowed, including in discussing the RE.
In religion it isn't, because that shows the religion is wrong.
You are outright rejecting critical thinking and refusing to engage in it, likely because it shows the FE and your claims are wrong.

Your only objections to the RE amount to blanant lies you refuse to defend along with insulting the RE and those who support it.
You are describing yourself.
Your adherenece to the FE model is based upon nothing more than indoctrination and ridicule, with no sign of crtical thinking ANYWHERE.

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#### JackBlack

• 15775
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1844 on: December 08, 2020, 01:48:26 PM »
If you meant that you needed to scale down the view, such that you account for how perspective makes objects smaller, then you need to make sure you also scale down the distance to Earth. If you do this you have something more like this:

And a closer view of just the tube:

And yet again you can see Earth through this tube.
Not just below your feet, but by the time you get to 23-24 m, it is within your FOV.

Understand FOV and how vision works yet?

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#### Solarwind

• 1618
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1845 on: December 08, 2020, 03:34:07 PM »
It's a very simple experiment to do.  Probably one of the simplest.  Kitchen towel comes on a role.   It is rolled around a length of cardboard tube.  I just finished up a role and took hold of the tube.  I walked up to my back door (about 1m from it) and looked through the tube with my eye at one end, just as if I was looking through a telescope.

I could see the inside of the tube of course and I could also see some of the back door through the hole at the other end. No surprises so far.  I then backed backwards across my kitchen (5m or thereabouts). All the time I was still looking through the tube and as the distance between me and the back door increased, so I could see more and more of my back door. In other words my FOV was increasing all the time. So clearly if I could carry on walking backwards and away from the door far enough then there would come a point where I could see the whole of the door. Whereas while I was standing just a metre or so away from it then I could only see a small part of the door.

According to what Scepti seems to be insisting (reply #1835 for example) is that even as I walk away from the door looking through the tube, I will only ever see the same amount of the door when standing 10m or 100m away as I could when I was standing 1m from it.

So are my eyes deceiving me or is Sceptis assertion that FOV through a tube does not vary with distance wrong? I was using the same tube all the time and I was using the same door all the time, looking through the tube with the same eye all the time and the lighting conditions were the same throughout.  So the only variable involved was my distance from the door. I guess I could even have someone measure my actual FOV at different distance from the door and then plot the points on a graph.

I predicted the result of what I would see before I conducted the experiment.  My prediction proved to be correct.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 03:41:57 PM by Solarwind »

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1846 on: December 08, 2020, 09:59:26 PM »
sceppy you are truly AMAZING!

watch the video.
let me know how much field of view is seen through this 1in sniper's scope at 500yards and the different levels of magnifications.
amazing!
Your field of view is compressed into an inch from the tube.
Magnification does not make the object physically bigger at distance.
Maybe have a think about it and you will understand.........................................maybe.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1847 on: December 08, 2020, 10:03:08 PM »

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

Scaled down, yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "scaled down". But looking through the 1" tube, 100 meters away, you would still only be seeing 1"? Like this:

That tape would be at the end of your tube. You would see the 1 inch.
If you put the tape at distance and look at it, you compress the image from your eye point. Your level point. Your vanishing point....meaning the object (tape) becomes smaller while you open up light around that object, as you move it away from the tube end.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1848 on: December 08, 2020, 10:11:45 PM »
well i asume sceppy has use of a cell phone?
and that cell phone has a camera?
and he has a tube of paper towel available to him?

go outside
stick your camera up to the tube
take a photo
post it.
let's see what you're on about.
You will not see anything outside of the tube vision. Your tunnel vision, unless you add in convexity or concavity.
If you were stood at one end of a straight tunnel which is 20 feet in diameter and look through it. How big is the diameter at the other end?
Measure it from your standpoint then carry on measuring it as you walk towards it.
Anything you see at the end of that tunnel works the same.

Your vision vanishes over distance due to reflected light not getting back to your eyes. It becomes a vanishing point in enclosed areas....ie, your tube or tunnel, etc.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1849 on: December 08, 2020, 10:15:01 PM »

So you have no idea at all how FOV/vision in general works.

You don't see in straight lines like that. You see based upon angles.

Your trouble is, you're substituting the torch reflective cone set up into a tunnel vision scenario. It doesn't work like you think.
You need to evaluate it and come back to me.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1850 on: December 08, 2020, 10:16:28 PM »
If you meant that you needed to scale down the view, such that you account for how perspective makes objects smaller, then you need to make sure you also scale down the distance to Earth. If you do this you have something more like this:

And a closer view of just the tube:

And yet again you can see Earth through this tube.
Not just below your feet, but by the time you get to 23-24 m, it is within your FOV.

Understand FOV and how vision works yet?
I'm well aware how it works. You seem to be following a path that is not realistic.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1851 on: December 08, 2020, 10:28:21 PM »

According to what Scepti seems to be insisting (reply #1835 for example) is that even as I walk away from the door looking through the tube, I will only ever see the same amount of the door when standing 10m or 100m away as I could when I was standing 1m from it.

Pay more attention.
That's not what I've said or saying.
Your FOV is compressed as you move away from the object....in this case your massive kitchen with back door.
Either way you only see what can be compressed into that end tube vision by what light is allowed to reflect back.
If your tube is close of the door then most light is blocked.
Once you step back a little, you allow reflected light to bounce off that door and back to your eye, meaning you see a bit more of that door....and so on until you reach a vanishing point where the object cannot reflect the light and becomes invisible, almost, leaving what appears to be a reversed cone of vision (looking through a theoretical wide end to theoretical convergence opposite to what Jackblack is trying to portray.

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#### Solarwind

• 1618
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1852 on: December 08, 2020, 11:18:45 PM »
I also predicted another result after doing my experiment.  Which was that whatever anyone does by way of experiment to prove you wrong, you will invent some way of wriggling out having to admit that you are wrong.  And so far that prediction is turning out to be true as well.

Use whatever fancy words you like but previously you have claimed that if you are looking through a tube the diameter of the FOV that you see through it never changes.  Regardless of how near or how far away the object is that you are looking at through the tube.  That is what the parallel lines in the diagram indicate.

As I said it is a very simple experiment which can be performed by anyone with just a simple cardboard tube and the ability to move.  Try it.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1853 on: December 08, 2020, 11:49:32 PM »
Quote from: Solarwind

Use whatever fancy words you like but previously you have claimed that if you are looking through a tube the diameter of the FOV that you see through it never changes.  Regardless of how near or how far away the object is that you are looking at through the tube.  That is what the parallel lines in the diagram indicate.
It's true...it never changes.

Quote from: Solarwind

As I said it is a very simple experiment which can be performed by anyone with just a simple cardboard tube and the ability to move.  Try it.
It doesn't matter what you do, your field of view diameter of and from that tube will always be the same size.

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#### sobchak

• 449
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1854 on: December 09, 2020, 12:44:19 AM »
Quote from: Solarwind

Use whatever fancy words you like but previously you have claimed that if you are looking through a tube the diameter of the FOV that you see through it never changes.  Regardless of how near or how far away the object is that you are looking at through the tube.  That is what the parallel lines in the diagram indicate.
It's true...it never changes.

Quote from: Solarwind

As I said it is a very simple experiment which can be performed by anyone with just a simple cardboard tube and the ability to move.  Try it.
It doesn't matter what you do, your field of view diameter of and from that tube will always be the same size.

This is very confusing.  What is a "field of view diameter"?  Are you just making things up on the fly?

I think taking some time to study very basic subjects such as geometry and optics would be really helpful for you.  It doesn't have to change your mind about the shape of the earth and all your fantasy around it but would definitely help you avoid these really basic errors in thought.

Basic geometry and optics.  Millenia old, really helpful to know, relatively easy to learn, and simple to self verify with basic and cheap equipment.  It is possible this is still be beyond your capabilities, but I remain hopeful.

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#### JackBlack

• 15775
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1855 on: December 09, 2020, 12:47:31 AM »

So 100 meters away I can only see 1" of whatever is there?

Scaled down, yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by "scaled down". But looking through the 1" tube, 100 meters away, you would still only be seeing 1"? Like this:

That tape would be at the end of your tube. You would see the 1 inch.
If you put the tape at distance and look at it, you compress the image from your eye point. Your level point. Your vanishing point....meaning the object (tape) becomes smaller while you open up light around that object, as you move it away from the tube end.
i.e. the image above is not correct in any way as your FOV is not simple 1 inch.
Instead, the diagram I provided is correct.

Your trouble is, you're substituting the torch reflective cone set up into a tunnel vision scenario.
No, my "trouble" is that you continually reject reality without cause.

Once more, tunnel vision is based upon angle, not physical size. You even effectively admit that.
Once more, looking through a 1 inch diameter tube doesn't mean you see 1 inch. Instead you see roughly 10 degrees (assuming said tube is roughly 15 cm long).

It seems to work exactly like I think.

Did you even try the test I suggested?
Get that tube, and look through it at a circle on the wall or down a hallway.
Do you just see that circle, or do you see more?
Do you see the floor or not?

Once more, this is what you actually see, first the physical idea:

This is a to scale diagram of the RE, showing the FOV through that tube.

Here is an angular view instead:

You will easily see Earth through this tube.

Once more, do you have a rational objection, or just continued dismissal of reality?

I'm well aware how it works. You seem to be following a path that is not realistic.
Just what is unrealistic about my path?
Can you actually show anything wrong with it, or just continue with the same pathetic dismissal?

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1856 on: December 09, 2020, 01:10:40 AM »
Quote from: Solarwind

Use whatever fancy words you like but previously you have claimed that if you are looking through a tube the diameter of the FOV that you see through it never changes.  Regardless of how near or how far away the object is that you are looking at through the tube.  That is what the parallel lines in the diagram indicate.
It's true...it never changes.

Quote from: Solarwind

As I said it is a very simple experiment which can be performed by anyone with just a simple cardboard tube and the ability to move.  Try it.
It doesn't matter what you do, your field of view diameter of and from that tube will always be the same size.

This is very confusing.  What is a "field of view diameter"?  Are you just making things up on the fly?

I think taking some time to study very basic subjects such as geometry and optics would be really helpful for you.  It doesn't have to change your mind about the shape of the earth and all your fantasy around it but would definitely help you avoid these really basic errors in thought.

Basic geometry and optics.  Millenia old, really helpful to know, relatively easy to learn, and simple to self verify with basic and cheap equipment.  It is possible this is still be beyond your capabilities, but I remain hopeful.
It may be more helpful to yourself if you try and understand what's been said.

Your field of view is what you see in the area your eye can see.
In the tube, that area is determined by the diameter of the tube.

Anything you see within that diameter, whether close up or far is your field of view...but it still stays at that diameter.
The only thing that changes is the light reflection from around the the object over distance as you move away from it, seen in that diameter of that scope.

If you stand at a straight tunnel that is 20 feet in diameter and look through to the other end, you only see a massively reduced diameter of that tunnel end but you know it to be 20 feet in diameter.
If someone at the other end to you, sees you, they see you as a dot within a small diameter to their vision from the light surrounding the tunnel end and beyond.

The bigger the distance the smaller the convergence of light around any object back to the eye.

Call this the thick to thin cone view as it may appear.

?

#### Solarwind

• 1618
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1857 on: December 09, 2020, 01:14:04 AM »
I have a pair of binoculars (15x70) sitting on the desk next to me.  On the back it says 231ft at 1000Yds or 77m at 1000m.

These figures give me the diameter of the FOV at those distances. They are basically the same except one is imperial one is metric.  If the FOV never varied with distance why would they need to quote at 1000 yards or at 1000 metres?

With the same binoculars I can see the whole of the Moon (and a lot of the sky around it) and that is 3475km in diameter!  So the further I look, the wider the FOV. Same applies to our cardboard tube.

I think Scepti might be confusing apparent FOV and real FOV.  I also have an eyepiece here which says '13mm/100 degrees).  The apparent FOV diameter is always the same.  But the actual FOV will vary according to the telescope I use.

My eye has a focal point at the back of the retina. The tube has a diameter larger than the pupil of my eye.  So if you draw lines which connect the focal point of my eye with the edges of the far end of the tube you will naturally form an angle.  That angle is fixed and is the real FOV. But those lines will continue to diverge infinitely as distance increases.  That's why the apparent FOV increases with distance.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 01:21:27 AM by Solarwind »

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28092
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1858 on: December 09, 2020, 01:21:15 AM »

Once more, this is what you actually see, first the physical idea:

This is a to scale diagram of the RE, showing the FOV through that tube.
Here is an angular view instead:

You will easily see Earth through this tube.
Once more, do you have a rational objection, or just continued dismissal of reality?
You're getting mixed up (purposely, imo) with using a telescope/wide angled lens/fish eye lens.
The argument is the tube. Tunnel vision. Deal with that.
Your eye ball sight is negated by that tube. That tube takes away your ability to spread the light as it focuses to a convergence point.
You're using the tube as some kind of angled torch beam. You know it's false.

?

#### Solarwind

• 1618
##### Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1859 on: December 09, 2020, 01:24:41 AM »
Quote
You know it's false.

No you are just interpreting all this so it suits your belief. So you ignore what is real and just carry on reinventing the laws of physics as they apply to light so you don't have to admit you are wrong.  Which is pretty much the usual pattern for conspiracy theorists. They only accept as real what they believe.