What would change your mind?

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1620 on: November 30, 2020, 04:51:48 AM »
I'm surrounded by the smartest domesticated animals on the planet in my workplace, which is probably why my naivety is so low.
You work with pigs?!

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1621 on: November 30, 2020, 05:53:30 AM »
Quote
I'm giving out my thoughts and people are trying to fathom them out and getting frustrated when I won't follow their path of thought.

Just what is your path of thought?  In my case it is not because I won't follow along your path.  It's because I can't.   So yes I am trying to fathom out what exactly it is that you think because you are not exactly making it very clear.

O and if you are going to pull others up for 'copying and pasting' then best not do it yourself.  By that I mean when I ask you for your definition of something I don't mean just copy and paste something out of mainstream Wikipedia. I'm used to teenagers doing that as part of their 'homework' but that's because they can't figure out the answers for themselves or explain things in their own words.

Quote
I simply started to question what was being indoctrinated into me and using my very own logic to find better fits.

You love that word don't you.  Like you I am not a 'yes sir, no sir, whatever you say sir' kind of person.  I have spent most of the part of my life asking questions about the world and Universe that I live on and in.  I am most definitely not a 'just accept it' sort of person so the term indoctrination which you love so dearly does not apply to me.

So if my understanding of you is correct then you take the view that we should not accept anything as true unless we can prove it as such to ourselves.  Please correct me if I'm wrong there but if it is true then I guess you have never taken part in any sort of course because you wouldn't trust that the teacher was telling you the truth.

One thing I do enjoy doing for myself though is looking through my telescope at the planets for example and discovering for myself the rings of Saturn or the satellites of Jupiter for example.  Thereby repeating those pioneering observations from the past by the likes of Galileo, Cassini and Huygens.  And of course showing others the same as well.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 02:30:26 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1622 on: November 30, 2020, 01:26:24 PM »
I'm surrounded by the smartest domesticated animals on the planet in my workplace, which is probably why my naivety is so low.
You work with pigs?!

Not really, but in a sense, yes.  ;)

I'd pay money to know what sceptimatic's workplace is. I was leaning towards head chef of the Pancake Palace, but now I'm thinking he likely works for Pizza Planet - as a delivery boy ofcourse.


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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1623 on: November 30, 2020, 02:51:15 PM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1624 on: November 30, 2020, 10:45:33 PM »
Sceptimatic, I stood on the basketball and looked straight ahead, horizontally level. Guess what? I could still see Earth's horizon line. To make things more challenging, I repeated your experiment, standing on a marble. Same deal! I'm banking I will get the same result, standing on a frozen pea.

Then i repeated the experiment getting my eyeball as close to the top of the basketball as possible, mimicking what happens when we look at the earth horizon, and looked across horizontally. There it was - the basketball horizon, just lower than my eye level, as expected on an inflated basketball.

That paragraph I wrote which you say doesn't make sense - it makes perfect sense - read it again out aloud, slowly.

Like I said before; standing on a basketball would be standing on your Earth. The basketball (assuming it holds your weight to stay spherical) would curve down from under your vision, whether you're 6 feet above it or 6 inches and looking horizontally level.
This means you get no edge and you get no horizon.

If you're trying to say you can see your horizon by standing on a basketball or a marble or a frozen pea, whilst looking out to sea, then you're not dealing with the issue, are you?

Quote from: Smoke Machine
Of all the things to question being indoctrinated to you, sceptimatic, why did you choose the shape of this planet????
I didn't just choose the shape of the Earth. It's one of many things I question but it's the biggest thing to question when it relates to everything about our lives.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
You could have chosen your gender
I am what I am. I have no need to.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
your religion,
I do not follow a religion.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
your profession
I did and do what I do. I sometimes have questioned it but then again, most likely all of us have at some low point.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
your birth parents
They were who they were. I have never felt the need to question it.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
your partner in life
Same again, as above.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
the moon landing
I massively question it. I do not believe it ever happened for reasons I've given over time...including my Earth, if you use your loaf.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
bigfoot
Never felt the need to question it. It doesn't interest me.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
ghosts
I massively question ghosts as we're told. I do not believe in ghosts.
Quote from: Smoke Machine
esp etc. But you choose to be sceptical about the shape of this planet, with absolutely nothing about a flat earth that fits better. Incredible.
Never felt the need to question this. Maybe our brains can pick up better frequencies, depending. I've never looked into it enough to question it.

Quote from: Smoke Machine
I'm surrounded by the smartest domesticated animals on the planet in my workplace, which is probably why my naivety is so low.
Naivety isn't something you can gauge for yourself in a true overall sense. Only hindsight can gauge each piece of naivety or not.
The best people to gauge naivety are those looking from the outside, in and seeing it first hand, unbeknown to the person who is being judged on it....but this can only happen if the judges have the facts that prove a naivety and assuming they aren't being naive, themselves.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 10:48:34 PM by sceptimatic »

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sceptimatic

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  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1625 on: November 30, 2020, 11:05:49 PM »
Quote
I'm giving out my thoughts and people are trying to fathom them out and getting frustrated when I won't follow their path of thought.

Just what is your path of thought?  In my case it is not because I won't follow along your path.  It's because I can't.   So yes I am trying to fathom out what exactly it is that you think because you are not exactly making it very clear.
If you don't think it's clear then find a way to help yourself by asking the questions that may make it more clear.
A hint: Don't follow anyone (especially Jackblack) because you'll end up down your own rabbit hole and get more confused.
If you're genuine then put the effort in, for you...without forum peer pressure to do otherwise.

Quote from: Solarwind
Quote
I simply started to question what was being indoctrinated into me and using my very own logic to find better fits.

You love that word don't you.  Like you I am not a 'yes sir, no sir, whatever you say sir' kind of person.  I have spent most of the part of my life asking questions about the world and Universe that I live on and in.  I am most definitely not a 'just accept it' sort of person so the term indoctrination which you love so dearly does not apply to me.
You may ask questions. That's fine as far as I'm concerned. I just simply believe you are following a route set out for you in many cases.
You claim to be a teacher. To be a teacher you have to follow the curriculum. It is indoctrination and you trained to carry that on.
Think about that.
I'm not saying it's all bad but schooling should be clear enough in terms of stating facts, fictions or theories.
The problem is some things cannot be questioned. You know this.



Quote from: Solarwind
So if my understanding of you is correct then you take the view that we should not accept anything as true unless we can prove it as such to ourselves.  Please correct me if I'm wrong there but if it is true then I guess you have never taken part in any sort of course because you wouldn't trust that the teacher was telling you the truth.
You need to understand where I come from on this.
I accept a lot of things in life, without knowing whether they are true or not. I accept them because life goes on and they are lower down on any list to question the validity of.
Accepting of anything does not mean believing just, anything. It also does not mean disbelief. It's a middle ground of acceptance in order to go about life.


Quote from: Solarwind
One thing I do enjoy doing for myself though is looking through my telescope at the planets for example and discovering for myself the rings of Saturn or the satellites of Jupiter for example.  Thereby repeating those pioneering observations from the past by the likes of Galileo, Cassini and Huygens.  And of course showing others the same as well.
I have no issue with what you view. It's a sky full of variations of light, whether you believe they're planets or suns or whatever, in a physical form.
I can sit in what I'm told is a, planetarium and gaze at all the similar things you view through your telescope.
Mine is projected onto a ceiling/dome.....maybe yours is, on a bigger scale.
However, you believe otherwise and that's absolutely fine by me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1626 on: November 30, 2020, 11:15:03 PM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1627 on: December 01, 2020, 12:05:18 AM »
If you are so sure about your dome beliefs, then explain to me just this.  If that is correct then how come there are two clear and distinct point in the sky, situated 180 degrees apart around which the stars rotate.  In the north rotating anti-clockwise and in the south, clockwise.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1628 on: December 01, 2020, 12:09:20 AM »
Like I said before; standing on a basketball would be standing on your Earth.
And like so many things you say, that is an outright lie.

Standing on a basketball, is vastly different to standing on Earth due to the scale involved.

Standing on Earth, 2 m high, you stand only a fraction of the radius above Earth.
But standing on a basketball 2 m high, you stand many times the radius.
Standing on a basketball is like standing 53 000 km above Earth.

The basketball (assuming it holds your weight to stay spherical) would curve down from under your vision, whether you're 6 feet above it or 6 inches and looking horizontally level.
No, it doesn't.
It highly depends upon your height above it.
This means when close enough you do get an edge and do get a horizon.

Again, if you disagree then tell us where this edge would be.
Forget looking out level, start looking down and lift your head up until you reach the edge. Where would it be?

this can only happen if the judges have the facts that prove a naivety and assuming they aren't being naive, themselves.
Which makes you useless as a judge.

If you don't think it's clear then find a way to help yourself by asking the questions that may make it more clear.
For you to just ignore those questions because they show your claims are pure garbage?

I have asked plenty of questions to "make it more clear" as have plenty of others.
But when an honest answer to these questions would require you to admit you are wrong, you just ignore it or find some pathetic excuse to dismiss it.

I'm not saying it's all bad but schooling should be clear enough in terms of stating facts, fictions or theories.
Do you mean facts like Earth is round, as opposed to your blatant lies?

The problem is some things cannot be questioned. You know this.
That would be religion. With science, anything can be questioned, but questioned isn't the same as discarded.
The problem for you is that no FEers can provide any problems for the RE that the FE can solve.
Instead all they have are the same pathetic lies and strawmen.

If I had to show you then I'd draw
Don't tell us what you would draw, actually draw it.

Again, here is a template to get you started:

It is for a 180 degree vertical FOV.
It already has the ground (in green) and the sky (in light blue).

As for the rest of that nonsense, once more ignoring the effect of perspective doesn't magically mean it doesn't exist.
It still does, and ignoring it to pretend a RE can't have a horizon would be just as dishonest as ignoring the curve.

You need to consider both effects.
At short range, perspective wins and Earth appears higher in your FOV. At long range, the curve wins.
The horizon is at the crossover point.

Again, the simple argument, which you have continually ignored, shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - This means if you were to look through a level scope, which is positioned at 2 m above level, with a FOV >= 5.4 arc minutes, you would see the horizon on the globe.

Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:

The Earth is curving down, away from the line of sight, yet perspective still allows it to appear in your FOV.

The only way you can pretend to have an argument against the RE is if you claim perspective cannot makes things appear higher, but then it is also an argument against the FE.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1629 on: December 01, 2020, 12:13:02 AM »
If you are so sure about your dome beliefs, then explain to me just this.  If that is correct then how come there are two clear and distinct point in the sky, situated 180 degrees apart around which the stars rotate.  In the north rotating anti-clockwise and in the south, clockwise.
The dome creates a mirror image.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1630 on: December 01, 2020, 12:14:48 AM »


Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:


Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1631 on: December 01, 2020, 12:30:40 AM »
Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:

Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.
If the telescope has a FOV of 90 degrees, and they are standing quite high above the Earth, it is exactly that.

Again, instead of just repeatedly dismissing this, do you have an actual objection?
Can you point out anything actually wrong with it?

Again, it is a 90 degree FOV, this is centred on looking straight out level.

But again, before you can move on to a level view, you need to either show that RE wouldn't have a horizon/edge at all, or admit that it does.
If you show it doesn't work at all, then that is the end of the discussion, no need to bring a level view into it.
But if you instead choose to accept reality and accept that the RE does have a horizon, then we can start discussing where it would appear in your vision, and thus how large a FOV you need when looking out level to see it.

Stop looking for pathetic excuses to dismiss it and instead deal with the issues raised.

And most importantly, we can see that even though they cannot see the ground directly below them, the way vision/perspective works means that the ground has a smaller angle of dip the further away it is and so it moves up and into view, until eventually at a much greater distance the downwards curve becomes dominant.

And again, address the argument that shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - This means if you were to look through a level scope, which is positioned at 2 m above level, with a FOV >= 5.4 arc minutes, you would see the horizon on the globe.

If you are so sure about your dome beliefs, then explain to me just this.  If that is correct then how come there are two clear and distinct point in the sky, situated 180 degrees apart around which the stars rotate.  In the north rotating anti-clockwise and in the south, clockwise.
The dome creates a mirror image.
That would require the south celestial hemisphere to be a mirror image of the north, but it isn't.
Care to try again?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1632 on: December 01, 2020, 01:13:45 AM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.


So you admit you would see what we actuallyall see and there is no issue with the 3d simulation video because it matches real life photographs?
Great - then what are we debating since youve admited several times what a horizon SHOULD look loke on a ball and compared it to what it DOES look like and boomyakaa - they are the same.

So.
What are you on about then?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1633 on: December 01, 2020, 01:17:46 AM »


Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:


Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.

Youve tricked jackB.
But you and i know that the 3d simulation video shows this and it shows matches real photographs.

Quit dodging.
Address the video.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 01:21:02 AM by Themightykabool »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1634 on: December 01, 2020, 01:17:51 AM »
Quote
The dome creates a mirror image.

Not bad for a wild guess and I would accept that if the star patterns around the NCP and the SCP were the same but they are not.  Totally different in fact so its definitely not a reflected image.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1635 on: December 01, 2020, 01:20:41 AM »
Quit possibly sceppy is having issue with "looking out horizontally" (if we all remeber the ibm vertical stops dead statement).

Does sceppy believe looking plumb level horizontally that the persons point of view would not be looking down at the ground?
Please confirm.


Possibly sceppy didnt understand jackB fov = field of view?
Please confirm.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1636 on: December 01, 2020, 01:22:07 AM »
Quote
The dome creates a mirror image.

Not bad for a wild guess and I would accept that if the star patterns around the NCP and the SCP were the same but they are not.  Totally different in fact so its definitely not a reflected image.

Dont distract.
Working on his undedstanding of horizon.
This will bring new disucssion ppoints and we lose his train of thought!

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JJA

  • 3455
  • Math is math!
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1637 on: December 01, 2020, 04:18:13 AM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.

Again, I'm asking you to draw it, not describe it.  What you are saying makes no sense.

Show us a picture or a drawing of what you think it would look like to stand on a sphere.

You keep deflecting and refusing to do such a simple thing.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1638 on: December 01, 2020, 04:22:31 AM »
Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:

Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.
If the telescope has a FOV of 90 degrees, and they are standing quite high above the Earth, it is exactly that.

Forget your side angle lens and show me one if you were looking through a simple level tube, like I mentioned.
Let's see what you come up with.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1639 on: December 01, 2020, 04:24:18 AM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.


So you admit you would see what we actuallyall see and there is no issue with the 3d simulation video because it matches real life photographs?
Great - then what are we debating since youve admited several times what a horizon SHOULD look loke on a ball and compared it to what it DOES look like and boomyakaa - they are the same.

So.
What are you on about then?
Pay attention.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1640 on: December 01, 2020, 04:25:15 AM »


Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:


Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.

Youve tricked jackB.
But you and i know that the 3d simulation video shows this and it shows matches real photographs.

Quit dodging.
Address the video.
The video can't be addressed because it does not show anything level.
Show me level.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1641 on: December 01, 2020, 04:26:54 AM »
Quote
The dome creates a mirror image.

Not bad for a wild guess and I would accept that if the star patterns around the NCP and the SCP were the same but they are not.  Totally different in fact so its definitely not a reflected image.
Your moon should tell you enough about which way you're looking.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1642 on: December 01, 2020, 04:28:57 AM »
Quit possibly sceppy is having issue with "looking out horizontally" (if we all remeber the ibm vertical stops dead statement).

Does sceppy believe looking plumb level horizontally that the persons point of view would not be looking down at the ground?
Please confirm.


Possibly sceppy didnt understand jackB fov = field of view?
Please confirm.
Looking through a simple tube would mean your FOV ends at the circle of that tube. The tube does not suddenly flute out, so let's deal with that.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 25571
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1643 on: December 01, 2020, 04:30:24 AM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.

Again, I'm asking you to draw it, not describe it.  What you are saying makes no sense.

Show us a picture or a drawing of what you think it would look like to stand on a sphere.

You keep deflecting and refusing to do such a simple thing.
Draw yourself a circle and place a horizontal level on it and see where it points.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1644 on: December 01, 2020, 04:41:57 AM »
How has the Moon got anything to do with what stars are visible around the NCP and SCP?

If the SCP is a mirror image of the NCP as you seem to be claiming then where is the reflected image of Polaris at the SCP?

Sorry Mighty but I think Scepti is capable of multi-tasking so my asking him about the celestial poles shouldnt   distract from the ongoing issue about the horizon.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 04:44:35 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1645 on: December 01, 2020, 04:55:43 AM »
How has the Moon got anything to do with what stars are visible around the NCP and SCP?

If the SCP is a mirror image of the NCP as you seem to be claiming then where is the reflected image of Polaris at the SCP?

Remember, the moon in his world is just a holographic reflection of the sun (which is itself just a holographic image of the giant bug zapper which has been projected through some magic crystal at the magic tower of the north pole).  If the sun can be reflected in a way that defies geometry, optics, and physics in general, then surely the stars can too?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1646 on: December 01, 2020, 05:27:25 AM »
Sceptimatic, I resisted the urge to quote your last response to me, in the interest of reducing boredom and space.

If you were to shrink me down to the size of an ant's foot or preferably another 20 times smaller, then place me on the basketball, then we might have an experiment on our hands relevant to earth's horizon. As it stands, it's no good, so getting my eyeball down as close as possible, will have to suffice.

I won't insult your intelligence to explain why, except to say that me standing on my basketball would be like me being about a third of the distance to the moon, looking back at planet earth from space, with my feet in the way of the view. (If a basketball represents the size of earth and a tennis ball the size of the moon, the tennis ball would be 24 feet from the basketball. I'm 6 feet tall)

If it makes you feel any better, sceptimatic, I questioned the fall of the twin towers during 9/11, and considered the conspiracy theories. The visual of what I saw on tv, didn't compute in my mind with the official explanation. For a long time, I just couldn't comprehend it, couldn't grasp the physics and the mechanics, but slowly I came good.

I've researched bigfoot. I couldn't comprehend why so many witnesses would be hallucinating or make up stories and lie. The human experience of a bigfoot sighting interested me greatly.

I've lived in a couple of houses that would pass the haunted tag. In one house, the owner told me she would often come home and find all the cupboard doors in the kitchen mysteriously open. I never paid too much attention, until one day I was sitting with her at the kitchen table and as we talked, one by one, I watched each of the cupboard doors open.

My point is, I do have a questioning mind, and I do carry a measure of scepticism, not unlike yourself.

I joined this forum for two reasons. Firstly, because I was fascinated by the psychology behind people who believe the earth is flat. Afterall, in any localised area earth is flattish, but on a world wide scale, that's a ball game. Secondly, I received a psychological injury at work with instant PTSD, and I needed a distraction - something that I could apply my investigative skills, but still escape work.

Here I am.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1647 on: December 01, 2020, 05:42:13 AM »
Well if Scepti thinks the Moon is just a reflection of the Sun then perhaps he try and account for how sunspots on the Sun keep changing and moving across the visible disk of the Sun while the patterns and positions of lunar craters always remains the same. 

If you look at a map of the circumpolar stars around the NCP and SCP and compare them you will see they are totally different.  Which rather discounts the possibility those in the south are simply looking at a reflection of the NCP region does it not?

Any amateur astronomer in the southern hemisphere will explain how much harder it is to achieve accurate polar alignment because of the lack of a decent bright star within 2 degrees of the SCP.  In the north Polaris lies just 40' (2/3 of a degree) from NCP.

*

JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1648 on: December 01, 2020, 06:19:16 AM »
Sceptimatic, please. Provide some diagrams. Following what you are saying without visuals is impossible for me.
What exactly would you like. Be specific and do not make it complicated to draw.

Draw or find a picture of what you think the horizon looks like on a round Earth.

You keep saying it wouldn't be a line, so show us a picture.

It's a very simple request.
It's not a simple request. The reason why is, you cannot have any horizon on a global Earth.
I've explained why, in so many ways.
You people have tried to put forward, drawings that go against horizontally level focus and passing them off as just that when clearly they are angled views.
No, it's an extremely simple request.  Just show us what it looks like.

You have tried and failed to explain many times, which is why we are asking you for a simple picture.  A drawing.  Anything.

Show us what you imagine standing on a sphere would look like. If you can't, then you don't REALLY know, do you?
If I had to show you then I'd draw a ball and a line on the ball that would be horizontally level.
That line would see the ball curve under it.
It would leave you viewing sky, if it were possible to live on a Earth ball, which it is certainly not possible.

Again, I'm asking you to draw it, not describe it.  What you are saying makes no sense.

Show us a picture or a drawing of what you think it would look like to stand on a sphere.

You keep deflecting and refusing to do such a simple thing.
Draw yourself a circle and place a horizontal level on it and see where it points.

No, this is your theory, I'm not playing your game where I draw exactly what you describe and then you tell me how it's wrong.

Your theory. You draw it, and quit making excuses.

Or don't you know how?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1649 on: December 01, 2020, 06:36:36 AM »


Likewise, this simple image shows that you are wrong:


Draw a diagram on your globe, of someone with a telescope looking horizontally level and show it to be that, instead of this diagram that shows nothing of the sort.

Youve tricked jackB.
But you and i know that the 3d simulation video shows this and it shows matches real photographs.

Quit dodging.
Address the video.
The video can't be addressed because it does not show anything level.
Show me level.

It does
He even adds a red line.