What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1470 on: November 21, 2020, 11:08:02 AM »
What prize do you get I wonder if you manage to drag out a discussion to page 50 without managing to convince everyone (or anyone) else that you are right.  Two things that Scepti has done successfully.  Only two mind.

Talking about 50 pages it seems I have the honour of starting off page 50.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1471 on: November 21, 2020, 11:12:12 AM »
What prize do you get I wonder if you manage to drag out a discussion to page 50 without managing to convince everyone (or anyone) else that you are right.  Two things that Scepti has done successfully.  Only two mind.

Talking about 50 pages it seems I have the honour of starting off page 50.

Says the guy who has posted in nearly every page of this thread.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1472 on: November 21, 2020, 11:25:03 AM »
Only nearly.. I must have missed one then.

The point being that if Scepti was more convincing we would all be converted to FEers by now surely.  But there still seem to be more RE contributing to this than FE.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 11:27:34 AM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1473 on: November 21, 2020, 11:32:15 AM »
Maybe itís just me though, and it is clear to others?  Does anyone here understand what he is saying the horizon ~is~?  What is he saying I am seeing when I look out over the ocean?
He is saying it is some magical combined effect of the atmosphere, perspective (which he likes calling convergence) and limited ability to see light.
Combined with your eyes magical ability to remove a band of darkness and stitch the light below and above together, except only when it wants to.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1474 on: November 21, 2020, 11:35:08 AM »
Only nearly.. I must have missed one then.

The point being that if Scepti was more convincing we would all be converted to FEers by now surely.  But there still seem to be more RE contributing to this than FE.

The purpose of the thread wasn't for scepti to change your mind. Also, the angry globularists have always outnumbered the FE, I'm not sure why you are surprised that there are more of you posting in this thread. 
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1475 on: November 21, 2020, 12:33:51 PM »
Well I'm certainly not an 'angry' globalist. I realise that in a flat Earth forum the 'globalists' are always going to be frowned on because we think or know (delete as you wish) differently to you on the FE side.  But someone claiming that the Earth is flat certainly doesn't anger me.  Curious as to why but certainly not angry.  Wise was the king of angry and I don't think anyone could say that my posts have had the same tone as his did.

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind as a direct result of being part of this forum I wonder?  If not then I certainly won't be the first.  And no I'm not in the least surprised that there are more RE than FE contributing to this thread.  The same can be applied to many other threads outside of Q&A or Believers.

My question as it has always been though. If you set aside all the usual motives that conspiracy theories are about (anti-authority/establishment/government lies etc etc) then what else is flat Earth belief in the 21st century actually based on?  If you can tell me that then I would love to know.  I would also set aside the usual 'Earth looks flat from ground level' as well because that in itself is obviously not a proof that the Earth is actually flat.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 12:37:32 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1476 on: November 21, 2020, 02:17:58 PM »
Maybe itís just me though, and it is clear to others?  Does anyone here understand what he is saying the horizon ~is~?  What is he saying I am seeing when I look out over the ocean?
He is saying it is some magical combined effect of the atmosphere, perspective (which he likes calling convergence) and limited ability to see light.
Combined with your eyes magical ability to remove a band of darkness and stitch the light below and above together, except only when it wants to.

Fifty pages! The shame of it all!  :'( :'( :'(

To give credit where credit is due, if earth were a flat plane, sceptimatic is correct in two respects.

The horizon on flat plane earth would look from the naked eye, practically indisguishable from the horizon on globe earth. Flat plane earth horizon might actually sit slightly higher than globe earth horizon, but the amount would be negligible to the naked eye.

In perspective drawing and art, the horizon line is the eye line, just as sceptimatic preaches it is.

The big difference between the two horizons, is ships on flat earth horizon would "shrink", instead of "sink".

Hasn't somebody already modelled this difference on the computer?


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1477 on: November 21, 2020, 02:29:27 PM »
Maybe itís just me though, and it is clear to others?  Does anyone here understand what he is saying the horizon ~is~?  What is he saying I am seeing when I look out over the ocean?
He is saying it is some magical combined effect of the atmosphere, perspective (which he likes calling convergence) and limited ability to see light.
Combined with your eyes magical ability to remove a band of darkness and stitch the light below and above together, except only when it wants to.

From what he has written, this seems as good of an assessment as can be made, but I doubt this is what he really wants to convey.

Sceptimatic, is this the perception of your argument you are after?  Is this how you want your model to be understood by those reading about it?

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1478 on: November 21, 2020, 02:54:22 PM »
Maybe itís just me though, and it is clear to others?  Does anyone here understand what he is saying the horizon ~is~?  What is he saying I am seeing when I look out over the ocean?
He is saying it is some magical combined effect of the atmosphere, perspective (which he likes calling convergence) and limited ability to see light.
Combined with your eyes magical ability to remove a band of darkness and stitch the light below and above together, except only when it wants to.

Fifty pages! The shame of it all!  :'( :'( :'(

To give credit where credit is due, if earth were a flat plane, sceptimatic is correct in two respects.

The horizon on flat plane earth would look from the naked eye, practically indisguishable from the horizon on globe earth. Flat plane earth horizon might actually sit slightly higher than globe earth horizon, but the amount would be negligible to the naked eye.

In perspective drawing and art, the horizon line is the eye line, just as sceptimatic preaches it is.

The big difference between the two horizons, is ships on flat earth horizon would "shrink", instead of "sink".

Hasn't somebody already modelled this difference on the computer?

I'd say that Walter Bislin's site has the best modeling and calculators out there - http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp

Here's his modeling/simulation of the famous Lake Ponchartrain shot comparing RE to FE:


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1479 on: November 21, 2020, 03:40:19 PM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1480 on: November 21, 2020, 06:35:21 PM »
Only nearly.. I must have missed one then.

The point being that if Scepti was more convincing we would all be converted to FEers by now surely.  But there still seem to be more RE contributing to this than FE.

The purpose of the thread wasn't for scepti to change your mind. Also, the angry globularists have always outnumbered the FE, I'm not sure why you are surprised that there are more of you posting in this thread.

I'd love it if a FE believer would actually answer the question this thread is actually about.  I got a few RE believers but yet to get a FE perspective.

I've pretty much given up at this point, and am just seeing how far off the tracks this derailment is going to go. :)

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1481 on: November 22, 2020, 05:21:44 AM »
You see your own convergence line, like I said.
The problem is, reality is not like you repeatedly lie.

We do not see a convergence line.
We see a physical horizon that objects can go behind.

The fact you are saying this shows you seem not interested in finding the truth. You only seem interested in keeping the mass indoctrinated opinion going.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 11:05:15 PM by sceptimatic »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1482 on: November 22, 2020, 05:34:33 AM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.
Explain your video.
Explain what's supposedly happening on your globe.
What can I add if I don't know what it is you're portraying.

Pick a point and let's discuss.

If you want to use stash's effort above, then what is it you're seeing that shows a globe?

Let me make this clear.
If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?


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Round and Proud

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1483 on: November 22, 2020, 05:53:04 AM »
Thank you, sceptimatic, but you didn't answer my question. What would change YOUR mind, if anything?
I did answer it, sort of.
If I had a level scope and looked out to sea and only saw sky with no horizon, I'd go with a global model.
I do not see that, so by reality the global model we are indoctrinated into, is basically, dead

But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?
Forget about standing near any edge of the world. Let's deal with what you observe in actual reality.

I'll repeat what I said.
If you ere standing with a perfectly horizontally level scope, looking out to sea and you know the Earth should be curving downwards from your point, then over a short distance your water disappears from your scope to be replaced by sky....only (taking into account unobstructed view).

You know in your own mind that you see water and sky. Basically your horizon that appears to suit your scope and eyesight for distance.
You clearly know you do not ever just see sky....so you should clearly understand that your Earth does not curve downwards away from you.

It really is as simple as that. Maybe too simple for the scientific one's who wish to rely on magical mysteries.

Your example is in one detention, but we live in three. You assume the curve would would show. I can't because it curves away. 

In Auguest of 2014, a friend I and I were traveling throught Kansas going west on I--70 at night. It was severe clear, so we had great visiability. Using a FE Model, we should have seen the lights of cars coming down the Rockies. We didn't. What we DID see was red tower lights popping up to the west. At first we noticed 6 red lights running in a line north to south off in the distance. Then more lights popping up. The orginal 6 added lights under them. As we drove west the 6 became a few dozen, then a few hundred and all of them adding lights below those above on each tower.

We were approaching a Wind Farm. For each 5 miles we got closer to the first set of towers we saw about 16 feet more of each tower and therefore more lights apeared on each tower further toward the ground. When we got to the west end of Kansas we notice the my truck was working harder, it daylight by then and the land looked "level" in all directions, but we had started to climb that would take us into the Rockies. On the way back a week later, we screamed down that same unseen incline as we were now going down hill.
Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime...

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1484 on: November 22, 2020, 05:58:17 AM »
Thank you, sceptimatic, but you didn't answer my question. What would change YOUR mind, if anything?
I did answer it, sort of.
If I had a level scope and looked out to sea and only saw sky with no horizon, I'd go with a global model.
I do not see that, so by reality the global model we are indoctrinated into, is basically, dead

But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?
Forget about standing near any edge of the world. Let's deal with what you observe in actual reality.

I'll repeat what I said.
If you ere standing with a perfectly horizontally level scope, looking out to sea and you know the Earth should be curving downwards from your point, then over a short distance your water disappears from your scope to be replaced by sky....only (taking into account unobstructed view).

You know in your own mind that you see water and sky. Basically your horizon that appears to suit your scope and eyesight for distance.
You clearly know you do not ever just see sky....so you should clearly understand that your Earth does not curve downwards away from you.

It really is as simple as that. Maybe too simple for the scientific one's who wish to rely on magical mysteries.

Your example is in one detention, but we live in three. You assume the curve would would show. I can't because it curves away. 

In Auguest of 2014, a friend I and I were traveling throught Kansas going west on I--70 at night. It was severe clear, so we had great visiability. Using a FE Model, we should have seen the lights of cars coming down the Rockies. We didn't. What we DID see was red tower lights popping up to the west. At first we noticed 6 red lights running in a line north to south off in the distance. Then more lights popping up. The orginal 6 added lights under them. As we drove west the 6 became a few dozen, then a few hundred and all of them adding lights below those above on each tower.

We were approaching a Wind Farm. For each 5 miles we got closer to the first set of towers we saw about 16 feet more of each tower and therefore more lights apeared on each tower further toward the ground. When we got to the west end of Kansas we notice the my truck was working harder, it daylight by then and the land looked "level" in all directions, but we had started to climb that would take us into the Rockies. On the way back a week later, we screamed down that same unseen incline as we were now going down hill.
So...what are you trying to say with this?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1485 on: November 22, 2020, 07:15:32 AM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.
Explain your video.
Explain what's supposedly happening on your globe.
What can I add if I don't know what it is you're portraying.

Pick a point and let's discuss.

If you want to use stash's effort above, then what is it you're seeing that shows a globe?

Let me make this clear.
If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?

The guy made a scale model and showedd what is seen for you to compare with what is reality
Whats confusing?

It does show it to be arching down.

Again
What is confusing?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1486 on: November 22, 2020, 08:33:47 AM »
Quote
Your example is in one detention, but we live in three

What do you mean by one detention.  One dimension by any chance?

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1487 on: November 22, 2020, 10:07:31 AM »
Some dude on plane with a spirit level checking the horizon:


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1488 on: November 22, 2020, 10:58:16 AM »
Well there you go... one simple YouTube video and I'm converted. What more evidence could you possibly need. I hold my hands up. I've been wrong all this time. The Earth is obviously flat.

Quote
I'm trying to get to the truth, for myself.

But I thought you had already found the truth.  That's what you seem to be claiming all the time.  So what truth are you still trying to get to?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2020, 01:13:15 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1489 on: November 22, 2020, 12:00:41 PM »
We do not see a convergence line.
We see a physical horizon that objects can go behind.
The fact you are saying this shows you seem not interested in finding the truth. You're only seem interested in keeping the mass indoctrinated opinion going.
And how does me stating what is clearly observed in reality make it seem that I am not interested in finding the truth?
It seems you just reject the truth and instead pretend in it "mass indoctrinated opinion", even though all you have to object to it is repeating the same pathetic, refuted lies.

Again, the fact you continually ignore simple logical arguments that show beyond any doubt that you are wrong shows that you do not give a damn about the truth and are not here seeking it.
The fact that you dismiss as fake simply because it shows you are wrong shows beyond any doubt that you don't give a damn about the truth.

Here is the same argument you have still refused to engage with in any rational manner:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.

If you truly were seeking the truth you would engage with it, either admitting that it shows you are wrong and that one of your vey first claims in this thread was an outright lie, or you would actually try to refute it.

Again, the fact you don't, the fact you repeatedly ignore it, shows quite clearly that you don't care about the truth at all.

If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?
No, that isn't what it is showing at all.
Instead, just like normal, perspective makes thing further away appear closer to your line of sight.
Meanwhile the globe curves down.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1490 on: November 22, 2020, 11:06:46 PM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.
Explain your video.
Explain what's supposedly happening on your globe.
What can I add if I don't know what it is you're portraying.

Pick a point and let's discuss.

If you want to use stash's effort above, then what is it you're seeing that shows a globe?

Let me make this clear.
If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?

The guy made a scale model and showedd what is seen for you to compare with what is reality
Whats confusing?

It does show it to be arching down.

Again
What is confusing?
It shows it to be arcing up before it arcs down. Care to explain that?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1491 on: November 22, 2020, 11:08:59 PM »
Well there you go... one simple YouTube video and I'm converted. What more evidence could you possibly need. I hold my hands up. I've been wrong all this time. The Earth is obviously flat.

Quote
I'm trying to get to the truth, for myself.

But I thought you had already found the truth.  That's what you seem to be claiming all the time.  So what truth are you still trying to get to?
When have ai a said I found the truth?
What I have found is the truth of the lies told to us...meaning we do not live on a spinning globe.

As for my hypotheses/musings......I don't hand them out as facts, so get your facts right.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1492 on: November 22, 2020, 11:10:48 PM »
We do not see a convergence line.
We see a physical horizon that objects can go behind.
The fact you are saying this shows you seem not interested in finding the truth. You're only seem interested in keeping the mass indoctrinated opinion going.
And how does me stating what is clearly observed in reality make it seem that I am not interested in finding the truth?
It seems you just reject the truth and instead pretend in it "mass indoctrinated opinion", even though all you have to object to it is repeating the same pathetic, refuted lies.

If you think you see a physical horizon by looking out to sea then you carry on.
It makes your efforts weaker and weaker.
Strengthen them up by actually typing something instead of copy and paste all the time.

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rvlvr

  • 1994
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1493 on: November 22, 2020, 11:12:22 PM »
What about the video I posted, sceptimatic? Any thoughts?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1494 on: November 23, 2020, 12:06:25 AM »
What about the video I posted, sceptimatic? Any thoughts?
Utter nonsense, to be fair.

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rvlvr

  • 1994
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1495 on: November 23, 2020, 12:08:25 AM »
Care to elaborate? In my opinion it shows the things you wanted.

It is easy to repeat "it is fake" without actually addressing why.

EDIT: You are certain it is faked? If so, how and why?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 12:14:16 AM by rvlvr »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1496 on: November 23, 2020, 12:16:17 AM »
If you think you see a physical horizon by looking out to sea then you carry on.
It makes your efforts weaker and weaker.
Really?
Why would using reality make my efforts weaker and weaker?

You are the one who seems to be getting quite weak, so desperate you resort to this nonsense, all while still ignoring the argument that has been plaguing you for so long.

Here it is again:

1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.

I will continue to bring it up until either you refute it or admit you have been lying to us all this time.

And no, repeatedly bringing it up doesn't make my argument weaker. It makes it stronger, as it shows just how desperate you are to avoid this simple argument which destroys your claim and exposes you as a liar.

Now care to address it this time?

It shows it to be arcing up before it arcs down. Care to explain that?
Do you mean when it was viewed from the distance, rather than from the surface?
That is typically how a sphere would work. Just what do you think the issue is?

I don't hand them out as facts, so get your facts right.
You repeatedly hand out your wild lies as facts, so perhaps you should get your facts right?
For example, with you repeating the same lie, that the horizon is the convergence point, again and again, with no indication of it being anything other than a fact, except the repeated refutations of that claim.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1497 on: November 23, 2020, 07:36:10 AM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.
Explain your video.
Explain what's supposedly happening on your globe.
What can I add if I don't know what it is you're portraying.

Pick a point and let's discuss.

If you want to use stash's effort above, then what is it you're seeing that shows a globe?

Let me make this clear.
If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?

The guy made a scale model and showedd what is seen for you to compare with what is reality
Whats confusing?

It does show it to be arching down.

Again
What is confusing?
It shows it to be arcing up before it arcs down. Care to explain that?


Now we re getting somewhere
See when you respond we get a sense of where your POV is and then we can move forward eith dialog.

So
You know perspective where you look at train tracks converging to a point far away?
But we know they stay parallel.
They dont actually come together?
Turn your head sideways.
Now the left-right is up-down.
Does the up side converge into the bottom?
No
Nothing has changed.
Thebworld is 3dimensional.
Perspective runs both ways.

The water is not curving up

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1498 on: November 23, 2020, 09:30:09 AM »
Quote
What I have found is the truth of the lies told to us...meaning we do not live on a spinning globe.

O right... and where did you find that truth then?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1499 on: November 23, 2020, 09:37:08 AM »
Amazing
Those snaps math the video!
Lets go sceppy you dodgy dodign dodger mf.
Explain your video.
Explain what's supposedly happening on your globe.
What can I add if I don't know what it is you're portraying.

Pick a point and let's discuss.

If you want to use stash's effort above, then what is it you're seeing that shows a globe?

Let me make this clear.
If that stash effort is to show a globe then the globe seems to be arcing UP....right?
Shouldn't it be arcing down from your view?

The guy made a scale model and showedd what is seen for you to compare with what is reality
Whats confusing?

It does show it to be arching down.

Again
What is confusing?
It shows it to be arcing up before it arcs down. Care to explain that?


Now we re getting somewhere
See when you respond we get a sense of where your POV is and then we can move forward eith dialog.

So
You know perspective where you look at train tracks converging to a point far away?
But we know they stay parallel.
They dont actually come together?
Turn your head sideways.
Now the left-right is up-down.
Does the up side converge into the bottom?
No
Nothing has changed.
Thebworld is 3dimensional.
Perspective runs both ways.

The water is not curving up
If the water is not curving up then stop using that to play, hide the buildings. You can't have it both ways.