What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1260 on: November 12, 2020, 05:58:01 AM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.


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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1261 on: November 12, 2020, 06:23:53 AM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.
Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1262 on: November 12, 2020, 06:37:19 AM »
Quote
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.

I see.  So whenever we present evidence or proof of anything it has to be Sceptimatic compliant proof does it.. OK. In other words it is only proof if you accept it as such.  Well that eliminates a lot then straight away doesn't it.  Such as anything that proves that you are wrong for example or anything which suggests the Earth is not flat.
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it. You have provided absolutely no real proof, only so called evidence which is basically pseudo-science.

If you don;t want to admit to that then fine...but that's what's been provided.

How is it pseudo science when what has been provided is essentially your experiment; a leveled tube (or other shape) to look through. Result at altitude = horizon below eye level. What's pseudo science about that? The only difference is that the result is not what you want.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1263 on: November 12, 2020, 08:37:29 AM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.
Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.

This is amazing!

Im not sure what youre talking about here.
What ground or side are you expecting to see?
If you were at the bottom of a hill and look at the peak, do you expect to see the back side of the hill?

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1264 on: November 12, 2020, 08:39:43 AM »
Let me try and make this more clear and easy to understand.
That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job.
What baffles me is, why would you do this when you clearly know what I'm talking about and you can actually see for yourself....and so can anyone else. It strikes me as odd as hell, unless your goal is to ensure people don't get to the truth....but why?

Do you really not understand how tubes work?

The tubes are connected, the water level in both tubes equalizes.

You can't just look at it from 'any angle' because the system is self-leveling.

Do you really think they were just pouring more water into one tube to fake the experiment?  That's hilarious, and sad.
Let's not go into that. You should know this is not what I'm arguing and if not....pay attention.

No, you pay attention.  You said you could "assume any position when looking at those lines" but you can only look at them from ONE position to see them level. 
No I didn't. Don't argue this until you produce the quote where I supposedly said it. Or...pay attention.

Yes you did.  It's right up there.

"That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level." - sceptimatic

You don't seem to understand that there is only ONE height you can look at the water in the two tubes so they line up.

ONE.

You can't just move the camera around to make the horizon appear at different heights if you are lining the camera up with the water levels.

The observer can NOT assume any position like you claim.  You keep saying you didn't say that, but you did, it's right there.
Read what I've said and absorb it for a while.
I'm sure you can understand what's been said instead of adding in your own version of what it means.

Well I quoted your own words.  If you didn't mean what you said, maybe you should have said something else.

Come back when you understand how two objects line up.
You quoted what I said and used it in a different context. Pay attention or come back when you're capable.

And why context was that?  Why don't you just simply state what your mean and the context instead of saying things and then claiming you didn't really mean it.

Tell us what you really meant when you said this.  "That picture can show tubes of water/liquid and a tube and line but the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels, ensuring the horizon is not eye level. It's a con job and you know fine well it's a con job."
You know fine well what I'm on about. Keep pretending not to if you feel the need.

No, I only know what you SAY.  And you said the words I quoted, and keep saying they mean something else but until you actually say something all you're doing here is whining about being misunderstood without actually explaining what that is.

Again... you said "the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels" which is not true.  If you meant something else, say it.

It doesn't matter what's going on in your head, what matters is what you say.  So say what you mean or quit complaining people aren't mind readers.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1265 on: November 12, 2020, 09:47:11 AM »
Quote
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it.

You were snookered a long time ago.  Proof of what exactly?

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1266 on: November 12, 2020, 12:40:42 PM »
You know fine well what I'm on about. Keep pretending not to if you feel the need.
Yes, you are blatantly lying about how many things work so you can pretend the photo can be easily faked, instead of it easily refuting your wild claims.

Your claim was that you could easily move around and take the picture from another angle to make the horizon not appear level, but that simply isn't true due to how convergence works and how water levels work.

You are wrong, you were shown to be wrong, and now you are making excuses.

Once more, the simple fact that the water level in the 2 tubes will only be lined up like in that photo if the camera was also at level, means the photo was taken at level, not from above or below.
If you move the camera up or down, then just like how all parallel lines work due to convergence, the water levels won't be at the same position in the photo.
If you look at it from below, the further water level will appear lower than the near water level.
If you look at it from above, the further water level will appear higher than the near water level.

Again, this is shown by those red parallel lines. The higher they start in the photo, the more downwards they appear to be going.

And the other crucial part you continue to ignore, they all still converge on the same point.
That is the entire point of the convergence point.
It doesn't matter what angle the photo is taken at, all level parallel lines still converge, and thus a line connecting the 2 water levels would still point to the horizon if it actually was the convergence point.

Once more, your dismissal of the photographic evidence has been shown to be nothing more than a desperate lie.

When you present proof you will have me snookered.
You mean like I did, which you continually ignored?

You have provided absolutely no real proof, only so called evidence which is basically pseudo-science.
Then you clearly don't understand science.
Science deals with evidence and disproof.
Science does not deal with proof of a claim, as proof is something that can only come from deductive reasoning, while science relies upon inductive reasoning to support a hypothesis.

The closest you will get to proof of a RE is a disproof of a FE, which can be based upon evidence, such as the evidence of the irrefutable fact that the horizon is below eye level.
Or photos of Earth, showing it as ~a circle, from any angle, like those you dismiss as fake.

It seems any time you are provided with proof, you will either cry fake if you can, making up some lie as to how it was faked, or just ignore it.
You will never admit you are wrong as you have no interest in the truth.

I can't actually answer what a global Earth horizon would be like for two reasons.
1. The Earth is not a globe.
2. There would be no horizon on a sphere.
1 is not a reason. Regardless of if Earth is a particular shape or not you can still describe how it would look like.
Your point 2 relies upon that. If you truly believed point 1 and truly believed that meant you can't describe the horizon on a RE you would have stopped tehre.
So good job directly contradicting yourself yet again.

Point 2 is an outright lie, as repeatedly proven.

Again, all it takes is looking at a ball to realise a RE would have a horizon.

Once more, here is the logical argument you continue to ignore as it exposes your outright lie:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 km above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.
9 - Thus your claim for why you think Earth is flat is pure garbage.

Just repeatedly asserting the same lie will not help you.
You need to provide a rational justification for that lie, and deal with the logical proof against it.
The fact it is a lie should be obvious when you were defeated by such simple questions that you have had to repeatedly ignore them since they were brought up.

Remember how I asked if you look down and still only see sky, and you were forced to admit that no, in that case you see ground.
Then remember how I asked about how your view changes when you go from looking straight down, seeing nothing but ground, slowly raising your head to look straight up and see nothing but sky? But then rather than answer this question which clearly shows there is a horizon, you continually deflected or just outright ignored it?

Perhaps you will answer now:
You are standing on a round Earth (or global Earth as you like to call it), looking down, seeing nothing but ground/sea.
Now you slowly start to raise your head, and continue to do so until you are looking straight up.
Just what you think you will see as you are raising your head? Make sure you start with seeing ground, and end with seeing sky, and include everything you see in the middle.

And remember, this can also be simulated with any ball.
Where you start looking at the ball, seeing nothing but the ball, and as you raise your head you see a clear line dividing your FOV, with the ball below and the surroundings above. i.e. you get a horizon.

Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
I have, and guess what? I can see ground.
Also, this is not an argument against their being a horizon, it is just trying to say it wouldn't be seen when looking out level.

This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.
And like I have repeatedly shown, it all comes down to FOV.
If your FOV is large enough, you will see it.
The smaller the radius of the ball, the larger the FOV will need to be to see it.

For the very real RE you continually lie about, if you were standing with your eyes 2 m above its level surface, you would need to have a FOV of roughly 5.4 arc minutes.

The calculation is quite simple. The horizon will be located at an angle a such that cos(a)=r/(r+h), and the FOV to exclude the horizon, assuming it is symmetric, is 2*a.

Meanwhile, a kitchen roll tube, being generous and giving it a radius of 1 cm and a length of 20 cm, has a FOV given by 2*atan(1/20) = 5 degrees.

And any scope you use will be useless unless you can actually level it.
If you can only level it to the nearest degree, then you will still have that uncertainty and not be able to exclude the very real RE you continually lie about.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 12:45:46 PM by JackBlack »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1267 on: November 12, 2020, 03:46:15 PM »
With this horizon thing, consider the following.

I am standing in a room with a basket ball sat on a table a couple of metres away.  Any small spherical object will do, I'm just using a basket ball as an example.  Regardless of what angle I look at the basket ball from I can only ever see 50% of its surface area at any one time. But whatever direction I look at it from it always looks circular.  That is evidence that the basket ball is a sphere.  This is roughly the equivalent of looking at the Earth from say 2 or 3 times the distance (height) of the space station.

I now look at the basket ball through my DSLR camera using the live view mode.  I can see the whole of the basket ball with the lens set at 50mm.  I now start to increase the zoom setting until eventually I can see only part of the surface of the basket ball which is visible.  The surface fills the field of view.  I move towards the edge of the basket ball and can see the edge looks curved.  I am now effectively looking at the Earth from a height of 70,000 to 100,000 foot.

I carry on zooming into the edge and the length of the arc representing the part of the edge of the basket ball that I can see gets shorter and shorter and the extent of the curvature of the edge gets less and less. This is equivalent to differential calculus where we reduce the size of dy/dx and so a curve becomes more and more like a straight line as dy/dx approaches zero. The surface of the basket ball also looks increasingly 'bumpy' as I start to resolve more of the texture of the surface. 

Eventually I zoom in to a very small fraction of the edge of the basket ball to such an extent that the edge now looks to be straight.  I can scan around the edge as much or as far as I like but it always looks to be straight in my view finder.  Yet the camera is moving in a circle. The edge of the basket ball is now analogous to the horizon of the Earth.  It forms the limit of the surface area that i can see directly. 

I add some more cameras set up in exactly the same way but in such a position that they can see different areas of the surface of the basket ball. The view through any one camera does not directly provide any visual evidence that there is any curvature on the surface of the basket ball. If I look at how all the cameras have been positioned and the angles at which they are set I can see straight away that they form a spherical shape around the basket ball.

We can think of each of the cameras as satellites surrounding the Earth. Due to its distance from the basket ball each camera can 'see' that the basket ball is a sphere but looking through any one camera, that perception is lost.

RE see the bigger picture and realise that the Earth is spherical.  FE only see the view through any one camera and so to them they only 'see' a flat surface or straight edge.  Hence they have all the evidence they need to claim the basket ball and hence the Earth is flat.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 03:49:26 PM by Solarwind »

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1268 on: November 12, 2020, 04:37:04 PM »
A somewhat simplified version some guy did a while back:


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1269 on: November 12, 2020, 05:30:13 PM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.
Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.

Yes, that's consistent with the reality of the horizon.

You will never see the ground beyond your horizon, using a scope of any kind, with the exception of the phenomena known as refraction. The planet, when viewed from far enough away in space, reveals the horizon to be a complete circle. Astronauts can't see beyond that horizon either. Light travels in straight lines unless bent.

If the toilet roll is your most sophisticated means of observing the horizon, you're in trouble.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 05:34:50 PM by Smoke Machine »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1270 on: November 12, 2020, 10:18:45 PM »
Quote
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.

I see.  So whenever we present evidence or proof of anything it has to be Sceptimatic compliant proof does it.. OK. In other words it is only proof if you accept it as such.  Well that eliminates a lot then straight away doesn't it.  Such as anything that proves that you are wrong for example or anything which suggests the Earth is not flat.
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it. You have provided absolutely no real proof, only so called evidence which is basically pseudo-science.

If you don;t want to admit to that then fine...but that's what's been provided.

How is it pseudo science when what has been provided is essentially your experiment; a leveled tube (or other shape) to look through. Result at altitude = horizon below eye level. What's pseudo science about that? The only difference is that the result is not what you want.
No. The difference is the one's that are presented, are bogus. They're a con job. How do I know this for sure?
Anyone can prove this with the set up I gave.
You denying it means nothing to me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1271 on: November 12, 2020, 10:24:16 PM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.
Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.

This is amazing!

Im not sure what youre talking about here.
What ground or side are you expecting to see?
If you were at the bottom of a hill and look at the peak, do you expect to see the back side of the hill?
We're not taking about the bottom of a hill and this is exactly why I know you're playing games...which is fine because it allows me to give a variation of explanations....not for you...but for those who genuinely want to find the truth.


Stick to the downward slope/curve that I mentioned with your scope set to level and see if you can see the ground. You know you can't and you know the reason why, which is blatantly obvious.

All you are dealing with is the hill/downward slope and whether you can see that ground of that hill at any point from your simple scope, nothing more at this point.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1272 on: November 12, 2020, 10:25:08 PM »


No, I only know what you SAY.  And you said the words I quoted, and keep saying they mean something else but until you actually say something all you're doing here is whining about being misunderstood without actually explaining what that is.

Again... you said "the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels" which is not true.  If you meant something else, say it.

It doesn't matter what's going on in your head, what matters is what you say.  So say what you mean or quit complaining people aren't mind readers.
I'll leave you to whine on.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1273 on: November 12, 2020, 10:26:12 PM »
Quote
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it.

You were snookered a long time ago.  Proof of what exactly?
Proof for what you people are saying. That proof. You know....the proof that will change my mind. Do you have any PROOF?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1274 on: November 12, 2020, 10:28:22 PM »
You know fine well what I'm on about. Keep pretending not to if you feel the need.
Yes, you are blatantly lying about how many things work so you can pretend the photo can be easily faked, instead of it easily refuting your wild claims.

I'm not pretending it's faked, I know it is by the real experiment that anyone can genuinely do to show level horizon to their own eyes.
Your (and other) pictures refuse to show what I've asked and for good reason....because it will show what I've been talking about and we can't be having that, can we?


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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1275 on: November 12, 2020, 10:46:24 PM »
Quote
I have the right, just as you have, of dismissing anything if I do not see proof.

I see.  So whenever we present evidence or proof of anything it has to be Sceptimatic compliant proof does it.. OK. In other words it is only proof if you accept it as such.  Well that eliminates a lot then straight away doesn't it.  Such as anything that proves that you are wrong for example or anything which suggests the Earth is not flat.
When you present proof you will have me snookered. Until you provide proof you will always be looking for evidence to get to it. You have provided absolutely no real proof, only so called evidence which is basically pseudo-science.

If you don;t want to admit to that then fine...but that's what's been provided.

How is it pseudo science when what has been provided is essentially your experiment; a leveled tube (or other shape) to look through. Result at altitude = horizon below eye level. What's pseudo science about that? The only difference is that the result is not what you want.
No. The difference is the one's that are presented, are bogus. They're a con job. How do I know this for sure?
Anyone can prove this with the set up I gave.
You denying it means nothing to me.

What's missing from the set-ups shown? Look through a leveled tube is pretty much the extent of your set-up. So far we've got examples of a leveled box and a leveled tube. What's the missing component(s)?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1276 on: November 12, 2020, 10:52:53 PM »
Scepti, you have already programmed yourself to believe that the Earth is the way you believe it to be.  Nothing will change that no matter what evidence or proof to the contrary is presented to you. 

So just as you accuse us as having been 'indoctrinated' about the Earth being a globe, so you have equally 'indoctrinated' yourself in effect to believe otherwise. That's why all the evidence presented to you by us which shows that you are wrong, you simply reject as being faked or whatever.

At no point through these 40 odd pages has anyones mind mind been changed.  It is what it is.  You won't accept our evidence and we won't accept yours.  It is what it is.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1277 on: November 12, 2020, 10:54:51 PM »
Scepti, you have already programmed yourself to believe that the Earth is the way you believe it to be.  Nothing will change that no matter what evidence or proof to the contrary is presented to you. 

So just as you accuse us as having been 'indoctrinated' about the Earth being a globe, so you have equally 'indoctrinated' yourself in effect to believe otherwise. That's why all the evidence presented to you by us which shows that you are wrong, you simply reject as being faked or whatever.

At no point through these 40 odd pages has anyones mind mind been changed.  It is what it is.  You won't accept our evidence and we won't accept yours.  It is what it is.

I would change that a little, "You won't accept our evidence and you haven't presented any."

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1278 on: November 12, 2020, 10:55:46 PM »
With this horizon thing, consider the following.

I am standing in a room with a basket ball sat on a table a couple of metres away.  Any small spherical object will do, I'm just using a basket ball as an example.  Regardless of what angle I look at the basket ball from I can only ever see 50% of its surface area at any one time. But whatever direction I look at it from it always looks circular.  That is evidence that the basket ball is a sphere.  This is roughly the equivalent of looking at the Earth from say 2 or 3 times the distance (height) of the space station.

I now look at the basket ball through my DSLR camera using the live view mode.  I can see the whole of the basket ball with the lens set at 50mm.  I now start to increase the zoom setting until eventually I can see only part of the surface of the basket ball which is visible.  The surface fills the field of view.  I move towards the edge of the basket ball and can see the edge looks curved.  I am now effectively looking at the Earth from a height of 70,000 to 100,000 foot.

I carry on zooming into the edge and the length of the arc representing the part of the edge of the basket ball that I can see gets shorter and shorter and the extent of the curvature of the edge gets less and less. This is equivalent to differential calculus where we reduce the size of dy/dx and so a curve becomes more and more like a straight line as dy/dx approaches zero. The surface of the basket ball also looks increasingly 'bumpy' as I start to resolve more of the texture of the surface. 

Eventually I zoom in to a very small fraction of the edge of the basket ball to such an extent that the edge now looks to be straight.  I can scan around the edge as much or as far as I like but it always looks to be straight in my view finder.  Yet the camera is moving in a circle. The edge of the basket ball is now analogous to the horizon of the Earth.  It forms the limit of the surface area that i can see directly. 

I add some more cameras set up in exactly the same way but in such a position that they can see different areas of the surface of the basket ball. The view through any one camera does not directly provide any visual evidence that there is any curvature on the surface of the basket ball. If I look at how all the cameras have been positioned and the angles at which they are set I can see straight away that they form a spherical shape around the basket ball.

We can think of each of the cameras as satellites surrounding the Earth. Due to its distance from the basket ball each camera can 'see' that the basket ball is a sphere but looking through any one camera, that perception is lost.

RE see the bigger picture and realise that the Earth is spherical.  FE only see the view through any one camera and so to them they only 'see' a flat surface or straight edge.  Hence they have all the evidence they need to claim the basket ball and hence the Earth is flat.
When you get the chance to look at your Earth from a distance that shows it to be like the basketball on your table then you will have a great case for your own truth...for you.
If you can somehow show it as that reality to people like myself, your case would be a concrete global winner.

Can you do any of this or are you reliant on being sold and told info with pictures and video that we all know can easily be manipulated?

Having said all this you need to forget about sitting there taking pictures or focusing on a basketball on a table and focus on what I've been saying, which means you need to be stood on that basket ball.....or you need to be stood on something with a downward curve like you think your Earth has.

Once you realise that, by standing on your downward curve and using a simple tube without any wide angle/fish eye lens, at a height a few feet from the ground and levelled, you will see no ground from that position.
Forget about anything else as it's irrelevant in terms of this one thing.

You issue has to be being able to see the ground of the curve you are part of.


Now you can argue that your Earth is a huge sphere if you want but that supposed huge sphere still has to curve downwards away from your level sight. It has to if it is what you believe it is.
If this is the case then your simple scope at a few feet from the ground and perfectly level, you will not see the ground directly under that end of scope.

Now bearing that in mind, if you cannot see the ground directly under it and your sphere slopes downwards away from that, then you will never see any terrain from that position...ever.

However, we clearly do see the convergence of terrain to sky, meaning one thing is for certain. The Earth is absolutely not a globe we walk upon, because if it was, you would see nothing but sky.

This never happens unless you deliberately offset the level to angle it slightly, up....but you people don't have that luxury because you spent far too much time trying to explain why you do have a horizon line.

It's all down to semantics and pseudo-science on the part of the indoctrination crew and swallowed by yourself and many others....including myself at one stage in my life.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1279 on: November 12, 2020, 11:01:31 PM »


What's missing from the set-ups shown? Look through a leveled tube is pretty much the extent of your set-up. So far we've got examples of a leveled box and a leveled tube. What's the missing component(s)?

I've told you what's missing, so let's not go into that.

You even tried another with an obscure level in the background. Why?
Absolutely devious and you know it.

My simple tube is all you need.
The simplest stuff is all anyone needs but people like yourself appear to feel intimidated with simple stuff because it's likely too logical and simple which takes away any credence you build up with the complicated stuff that basically shows up nothing, yet bamboozles the average Joe who soon get intimidated themselves and simply agree. It's a case of peer pressure by mass count and always has been in this so called scientific mumbo jumbo set up.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1280 on: November 12, 2020, 11:18:18 PM »
Scepti, you have already programmed yourself to believe that the Earth is the way you believe it to be.
No. I've programmed myself to be rid of what I believe is pseudo-science and replaced it with my own ongoing thought process of what I believe may be a much closer potential reality with some of my thinking due to how certain simple experiments, etc, have been done on the simplest scale.

When I state my stuff as fact, then you have a case. Until then, you have nothing other than argument, which is why we are well into long topics.

Quote from: Solarwind
  Nothing will change that no matter what evidence or proof to the contrary is presented to you. 
The difference between me and you is, I have changed my thoughts on many occasions as time has went on.
I've saw better potentials.
You seem unconditionally stuck to your globally indoctrinated mindset, so I could argue it's you that fits this bill, as far as I'm concerned.
You've provided zero proof but have provided plenty of appeals to what you accept as expert authority, which is not proof.


Quote from: Solarwind
So just as you accuse us as having been 'indoctrinated' about the Earth being a globe, so you have equally 'indoctrinated' yourself in effect to believe otherwise. That's why all the evidence presented to you by us which shows that you are wrong, you simply reject as being faked or whatever.
I'll always be indoctrinating myself (teaching myself) the potentials of what Earth and the scientific truth's may be. I may never get to know the reality but then again I may get to know what isn't a reality and I think I'm finding a lot out about what isn't the reality we are/have been indoctrinated into....almost bullied into.

Quote from: Solarwind
At no point through these 40 odd pages has anyones mind mind been changed.  It is what it is.  You won't accept our evidence and we won't accept yours.  It is what it is.
No...it isn't what it is.
You may not accept one word of what I say and I certainly won't accept what you say when you follow the stuff I massively reject.....but, don't be so sure that there's only you lot pondering what I'm saying.
People out there who may feel intimidated to actually get into the argument of global or alternate Earth's...etc, may be sat back thinking " hmmmm, this makes sense", in terms of what I'm saying, even if they don't want to come on and say it....and then there will be those who think I'm stark raving mad and what not.

I thought you were decking out?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 11:20:35 PM by sceptimatic »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1281 on: November 12, 2020, 11:55:04 PM »
You can carry on saying whatever you like Scepti.  All your preaching's about this and that.  It really is wasted on me I can assure you.  You have programmed yourself to only accept what you believe and that is that.  You will only ever see your own point of view and reject as pseudo-science or whatever other fancy labels you choose to attach to it anything else that you don't believe in.

Time and time again we have presented you with far more evidence actually than we should have done.  Each time you flatly (sorry for the punn) reject it because it doesn't pass through your flat earth filter.  Fair enough.  On the other hand we have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that what you dictate to be correct really is true.  For you it's a case of you say it and everyone else should just accept it.  Just like how you claim the rest of us are about RE.

And as for decking out.  I will decide if and when I wish to participate in a discussion or not.  I give myself holidays away for a few days every now and then just like you do.

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1282 on: November 13, 2020, 12:16:48 AM »


What's missing from the set-ups shown? Look through a leveled tube is pretty much the extent of your set-up. So far we've got examples of a leveled box and a leveled tube. What's the missing component(s)?

I've told you what's missing, so let's not go into that.

You even tried another with an obscure level in the background. Why?
Absolutely devious and you know it.


Why? Because it's the only picture I have of the whole set-up. The box one shows level water tubes in the same picture as the result. Same concept as the tube only it's square instead of round. So I don't really see what the issue is. You're right, anyone can do the experiment and anyone can see that at altitude, the horizon doesn't rise to eye-level.
I have less than zero incentive to be "devious".  Wow, you are one paranoid mofo.

My simple tube is all you need.
The simplest stuff is all anyone needs but people like yourself appear to feel intimidated with simple stuff because it's likely too logical and simple which takes away any credence you build up with the complicated stuff that basically shows up nothing, yet bamboozles the average Joe who soon get intimidated themselves and simply agree. It's a case of peer pressure by mass count and always has been in this so called scientific mumbo jumbo set up.

You've never shown any evidence of your experiment. Why? Because you're absolutely devious and you know it?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1283 on: November 13, 2020, 12:25:01 AM »
You can carry on saying whatever you like Scepti.  All your preaching's about this and that.  It really is wasted on me I can assure you.
 
Of course it is. I wouldn't expect anything else from people like yourself who are massively indoctrinated, unconditionally into a global mindset.
There's plenty of you and I used to be one of those, so I'm under no illusions.


Quote from: Solarwind
  You have programmed yourself to only accept what you believe and that is that.  You will only ever see your own point of view and reject as pseudo-science or whatever other fancy labels you choose to attach to it anything else that you don't believe in.

 
I can see anyone's point of view but I do not have to accept it or believe it, just as you don't with mine.
I will reject anything if it's labelled as fact, without presentation of proof. And this is where I'm at.
You have presented zero proof but have presented what you believe is proof, which, as you know, is not a proof that you, yourself, can verify.

Quote from: Solarwind
Time and time again we have presented you with far more evidence actually than we should have done.
 
You've presented me with evidence that cannot be proved to be factual....and you absolutely know this.
Your reliance on it being factual because you trust the authority, is naive.

Quote from: Solarwind

  Each time you flatly (sorry for the punn) reject it because it doesn't pass through your flat earth filter.
 Fair enough.
 
No.
I reject it if there's no proof and I question stuff that is told and sold as proof if there is none to be shown.
It has nothing to do with a flat Earth.


Quote from: Solarwind

 On the other hand we have yet to see any evidence whatsoever that what you dictate to be correct really is true.  For you it's a case of you say it and everyone else should just accept it.  Just like how you claim the rest of us are about RE.
 
That's because I don't generally dictate it to be correct, unless there is proof and I tell you people this, time and time and time, again.


Quote from: Solarwind

And as for decking out.  I will decide if and when I wish to participate in a discussion or not.
 
And you do with regularity. often threatening never to talk with me and doing just that. Make your mind up.

Quote from: Solarwind

 I give myself holidays away for a few days every now and then just like you do.
 
Yeah, ok.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1284 on: November 13, 2020, 12:49:16 AM »
Quote
Of course it is. I wouldn't expect anything else from people like yourself who are massively indoctrinated, unconditionally into a global mindset.
There's plenty of you and I used to be one of those, so I'm under no illusions.

Quite simply.  Prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong and I and everyone else here will convert to your way of thinking. That's all we ask and all we have ever asked.  Trouble is, so far you haven't.  Nowhere near it.  That's why this discussion has gone on as long as it has. 

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JackBlack

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1285 on: November 13, 2020, 02:18:25 AM »
The difference is the one's that are presented, are bogus. They're a con job. How do I know this for sure?
You don't. Instead you just repeat the same lie again and again as it shows you are wrong so you need to dismiss it with whatever excuse you can.

Again, if you are so sure, why don't you go and do the experiment yourself and post a picture here?

And again, plenty of us have done this experiment and know that you are wrong.
The experiment you continually appeal to clearly demonstrates you are wrong.

Now instead of continually appealing to it showing you are wrong, explain why any of us should think these photos are bogus.

Stick to the downward slope/curve that I mentioned with your scope set to level and see if you can see the ground. You know you can't and you know the reason why, which is blatantly obvious.
Stop lying.
We have been over this repeatedly.
We KNOW we can see the ground.
We know this not because "it is obvious" (which is really your pathetic cop out way of saying you have no justification at all); but because that is what the math shows.

Again, if you wish to disagree, tell us just how far down you need to look to see ground.
We know we can see it when we look straight down, so where is the division?

And again, we know it isn't obvious that it isn't visible because we know there are 2 separate effects at play.
One is the ground curving down, making it lower. The other is perspective making it appear higher.
So asserting it is obvious is quite pathetic and not going to cut it at all.
If you truly think it wont, explain why you shouldn't be able to see it and tell us just how far down you have to look to be able to see it.

Proof for what you people are saying. That proof. You know....the proof that will change my mind. Do you have any PROOF?
You have made it clear that nothing will change your mind.
Why keep repeating the same dishonest act of pretending it will?
You have been provided proof, an irrefutable logical argument, which you just continue to ignore.
Rather than accept that you were wrong, you just continually repeat the same lies.
So it is clear you have no interest in any proof, nor the truth, nor admitting you were wrong.

I'm not pretending it's faked
Yes you are.
Again, the real experiment shows you are wrong.
You have no justification at all for why it is fake other than it shows you are wrong.
That is not good enough.

Your (and other) pictures refuse to show what I've asked and for good reason
Because it is impossible.
Because the horizon doesn't rise to eye level, so no matter how hard you try, you can't have a picture from a high altitude showing the horizon at eye level.
Again, the pictures provided show a clear water level to establish where level is, with some having this water level in line, meaning the camera is at eye level.
It has everything you need to establish that the horizon is below eye level.
But you reject it due to the simple fact that it shows you are wrong.

Again, if you think the experiment is so simple, then you go do it and provide your results.

When you get the chance to look at your Earth from a distance that shows it to be like the basketball on your table then you will have a great case for your own truth...for you.
Fortunately, we have cameras in space that can do just that.
Sure, you dismiss it all as fake, but for no reason other than it shows you are wrong.

focus on what I've been saying
Perhaps you should start focusing on what other people have been saying.

Again, you are standing on top of a ball, looking straight down at the ball and see the ground.
Then you slowly raise your head until you are looking up at the sky.
What do you see in between?
How does it change from seeing ground, to seeing sky?
Where does this change occur?

Can you address any of these simple questions, or can you just continually dodge as it clearly shows you are wrong?

If this is the case then your simple scope at a few feet from the ground and perfectly level, you will not see the ground directly under that end of scope.
Stop repeating the same lie.
The math shows you are wrong.
This is math and arguments you are yet to refute. Instead you just continually ignore it because you have no refutation and you know it completely destroys your claim.
Stop avoiding it, stop spamming the same garbage and instead grow up and deal with this. Deal with the logical argument that shows you are wrong, deal with the math that shows you are wrong.
Either provide an actual justifiable issue with it, or admit you are wrong.

Here it is again:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.

It's all down to semantics and pseudo-science on the part of the indoctrination crew and swallowed by yourself and many others....including myself at one stage in my life.
You mean it is all down to you continually deflecting from simple arguments and math which shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong, and you dismissing the evidence that shows you are wrong as fake, as you have no interest in the truth or admitting you are wrong.
It has nothing to do with anyone else being indoctrinated, as the evidence supports a RE, just like the rational arguments and math supports a RE.
Meanwhile, you have nothing other than your repeatedly lies to challenge it.

No. I've programmed myself to be rid of what I believe is pseudo-science and replaced it with my own ongoing thought process of what I believe may be a much closer potential reality
And that's the problem. It is all based upon your beliefs, rather than reality, rather than any evidence.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1286 on: November 13, 2020, 04:45:14 AM »
Sceptimaniac, I noticed you failed to respond to my post? Is that because I made use of a dirty organisation : NASA? Lol!  ;D

I'm curious...... what's your day job?

Can your flat earth model explain:

Earth's atmospheric composition and temperature, atmosphere and surface energy balances, earths temperature patterns, wind essentials including air pressure, the coriolis force, friction force, upper atmosphere circulation, local winds, monsoonal winds, oceanic currents, surface currents, deep currents, the distribution of earth's water, heat properties if water in nature, humidity, clouds and fig, cloud formation processes, cloud types and identification, air masses, mid latitude cyclonic systems, thunderstorms, tornadoes, tropical cyclones, the hydrologic cycle, the soil-water balance equation, groundwater profile and movement, micrithermal climates, polar climates, dry arid and semi arid climates, global climate change, earyh's structure and internal energy, earth's core, earth's mantle, eartg's lithosphere and crust, the rock cycle, the geologic cycle, minerals and Rick's, igneous processes, sedimentary processes, plate tectonics, sea-floor spreading and production of new crust, subduction of the new crust, the formation and breakup of pangaea, plate boundaries, earthquake and volcanic activity, hot spots, crystal formation processes, crystal deformation processes, orogenesus (mountain building), folding and broad warping, faulting, landmass sensation, geomorphic models of land firm development, weathering processes, physical weathering processes, chemical weathering processes, karst topography and landscapes, lands covered with sink holes, caves and caverns, mass movement processes, mass movement mechanics, fluvial processes and landscapes, stream flow characteristics, exotic streams, floods and river management, physical structure of the ocean, ecosystem essentials, terrestrial biomes, bio geographic realms, earth's major terrestrial biomes......

I could go on and on......but you all get the point.

When your flat earth model can adequately explain all of the above geographic components I mention above, sceptimaniac, then please continue to argue the earth is flat. Until then, I think you know what model belongs in the toilet along with your sophisticated horizon viewing apparatus?  ;D

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1287 on: November 13, 2020, 04:49:18 AM »
Quote
Proof for what you people are saying. That proof. You know....the proof that will change my mind. Do you have any PROOF?

Define for me what you mean by proof exactly.

And also could you list me just a few things which in your eyes have been proved and explain how they have been proved right or wrong.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1288 on: November 13, 2020, 04:55:55 AM »


No, I only know what you SAY.  And you said the words I quoted, and keep saying they mean something else but until you actually say something all you're doing here is whining about being misunderstood without actually explaining what that is.

Again... you said "the observer can assume any position when looking at those lines and levels" which is not true.  If you meant something else, say it.

It doesn't matter what's going on in your head, what matters is what you say.  So say what you mean or quit complaining people aren't mind readers.
I'll leave you to whine on.

If this is your official surrender and refusal to explain, then I'll accept it.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1289 on: November 13, 2020, 05:29:45 AM »
Why not?
You could try and model it to see if model matches reality.
Your global model does not match reality. Try looking over any downward curved surface with a level no fish eye lens/wide angle lens, scope just a few feet off the ground and you'll soon see you will never see the ground of that curved surface.
This is the very reason I mention using the most simplest form of scope. A kitchen roll tube.

This is amazing!

Im not sure what youre talking about here.
What ground or side are you expecting to see?
If you were at the bottom of a hill and look at the peak, do you expect to see the back side of the hill?
We're not taking about the bottom of a hill and this is exactly why I know you're playing games...which is fine because it allows me to give a variation of explanations....not for you...but for those who genuinely want to find the truth.


Stick to the downward slope/curve that I mentioned with your scope set to level and see if you can see the ground. You know you can't and you know the reason why, which is blatantly obvious.

All you are dealing with is the hill/downward slope and whether you can see that ground of that hill at any point from your simple scope, nothing more at this point.

Can you post a photo of this kitchen tube and highlight where the horizon is and why its different from.the ocean horizon?