What would change your mind?

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What would change your mind?
« on: September 14, 2020, 10:28:21 AM »
Hi, I'm new and definitely not smart enough to follow some of the mathematical and physical arguments that have been put forward here. I consider myself open minded, though. I have only one question:

What would it take for you to change your mind, whichever side you're on?

For me, if I went up in an airplane and saw the world flat below me, I think that would be a pretty big sign. Also if I went to Antarctica and saw the cliffs to keep me from falling off, that would certainly make me think.

I have been in a plane, though, and the world doesn't look flat. I have not been to Antarctica, so I can't say for sure.

I'm just curious what others might think.

Thanks.

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rvlvr

  • 2004
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 10:51:56 AM »
Yes, it only needs enough evidence of a flat Earth for me to believe it.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 11:12:19 AM »
I've asked and answered this question before.  I've never heard a Flat Earther answer, but maybe someone will respond this time.  I'm not a Flat Earther, but to change my mind it could be any number of things. 

Touching the dome.

Looking over the edge.

Flying out into the endless ice plain.

Reporters discovering an ISS set in Hollywood, complete with the actors and all the real ISS feeds showing reporters walking around in space on the set.

An explanation or theory that actually made any kind of sense at all. :)

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 12:20:11 PM »
Quote
I have been in a plane, though, and the world doesn't look flat.

Have you not answered your own question to some extent then?  You have seen evidence for yourself that suggests the Earth is not flat. 

If you are open minded then you will see the potential of both sides and then make a decision about what is the most likely answer having evaluated all the evidence for and against each possible outcome. Whereas dedicated FEers will ignore all the evidence that suggests the view that the Earth is round and then make up new and unproven laws of physics to try and make the rest work for their flat Earth belief. 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 12:23:11 PM by Solarwind »

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2020, 02:02:06 PM »
Actual evidence of a flat Earth would be rather useful, such as going up high enough to see all of Earth at once, or the vast majority of the known Earth; or seeing the edge.

Other things that would go a long way to making FE more credible, but not be able to replace a RE is a single unified model which can actually explain the multitude of problems the FE currently has.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 06:29:46 AM »
I agree, and the silence is an answer in itself.

I've seen a video that "proves" a flat earth by showing a container ship NOT going over the horizon. I've also been to the beach and on a ship and seen, with my own eyes, ships going over the horizon, multiple times on multiple oceans.

I'm fascinated by all of this, though.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 07:48:09 AM »
Here's something very simple. Very very simple.
If you take a telescope and set it absolutely horizontally level and looking out to sea or a lake or any unobstructed land, then your telescopic sights should absolutely not see any horizon.....at all......if...the Earth was a globe.

The fact that you see an horizon should absolutely verify that, at the very least we do not live on top of a globe and especially one that's supposedly rotating.

Any vision from a level scope would increase in elevation due to a downward curvature of a globe, because everywhere you looked with unobstructed view, would take you over a downward curve. We do not witness this in any way shape or form.
What we do witness is a meeting point of sea and sky or land and sky...always.

We can conclude that the oceans do not curve down.

So what would create a meeting of floor to ceiling?

The only thing I can think of is a level ocean and a concave sky.
Essentially, water wise....ocean wise, the Earth is flat.

Land wise, it is uneven terrain but essentially it is due to mountainous areas and elevations.
There is absolutely nothing Rational about the existence of a rotating globe. Nothing.....other than story telling and magical mysterious equations/composites and CGI that nobody has a clue about in reality, other than to parrot them.

Now here's the thing......nobody has to be convinced if they don't want to be....of a flat/alternate Earth....but you need to ask yourself some serious questions about the one you bought into and of which peer pressure and potential ridicule keep you on that path.

I know in my mind we do not live on a rotating globe. I'm 100% sure of that.
That's my opinion, though...but simple logic should tell most that it requires deep questioning.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 08:33:16 AM »
Thank you, sceptimatic, but you didn't answer my question. What would change YOUR mind, if anything?

But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?

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rvlvr

  • 2004
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 08:42:29 AM »
But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?
Yes, the edge should be visible.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 08:57:27 AM »
Okay, and if you had a less-powerful telescope, it would still be seen but blurry, because, in the same plane, it would still be in your line of sight, is that correct?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 09:08:07 AM »
Taking that to it's natural conclusion, there would be no time, even with your naked eyes, that there should be a clearly delineated horizon because there is always something in your plane of vision behind it. Since we both agree that there is a clear line at the horizon, then there would have to be nothing behind it. Which would be a point in favor of a curvature to the Earth, would you not agree, sceptimatic?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 09:09:57 AM by sparks0314 »

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 10:44:36 AM »
Most people WANT to see some amazing evidence that reveals a whole new world that blows away current science and opens up entirely new possibilities and discoveries.

Flat Earth? That would be incredible. Hollow Earth with dinosaurs living in it? Give. FTL like Star Trek is possible? Hell yeah! If any of these were shown to be true, most people would be thrilled. How cool would that be.

Flat Earthers don't seem to feel the same, they show no interest at all in anything that doesn't support their view of a Flat Earth. No
 wonder or curiosity at what living on a massive ball flying through space would be like.

I suppose that's why these questions never get answers from them. Most Flat Earthers I've met don't WANT to learn anything that contradicts their beliefs, so can't imagine any evidence they would accept.

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rvlvr

  • 2004
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 12:14:43 PM »
FE is a belief system. Nothing scientific about it.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 12:28:13 PM »
Quote
If you take a telescope and set it absolutely horizontally level and looking out to sea or a lake or any unobstructed land, then your telescopic sights should absolutely not see any horizon.....at all......if...the Earth was a globe.

Haven't you got that the wrong way round?  By my reckoning the sharply defined horizon that we see when looking out to see on a clear day is directly observable evidence that the Earth is a globe.  The horizon is created by the surface of the Earth curving away out of direct view. If the Earth was flat there would be no horizon because there would be no 'cut off' point to what we can see directly.

If you were out at sea with a clear horizon in all directions then the horizon would be the same distance from you in all directions.  That is because the rate of curvature on a sphere is the same over the whole surface area.  It also explains why the horizon is flat. Not because the Earth is flat (although that is what flat Earthers would have you believe) but because you are seeing the same distance in all directions. Flat Earthers will naturally grab hold of with both hands any apparent evidence that suggests the Earth might be flat and yell 'there you go - told you so!' but then will also fail to consider any other possible explanations for what that evidence might mean.  I believe that is what the psychologists call conformation biasing.

The evidence that would change my mind about the Earth being flat has not been produced yet.  Mainly because it is impossible to produce it.

It would probably help if flat Earthers stopped coming out with their ridiculous claims such as those about the distance and size of the Sun and Moon. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 12:42:33 PM by Solarwind »

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 01:28:20 PM »
Yeah, I don't get the "...your telescopic sights should absolutely not see any horizon.....at all......if...the Earth was a globe," bit. That doesn't make any sense.

In any case, what would change my mind? I'd happily change my mind if on a clear day you NEVER saw such an obstruction from a distance such as this:


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2020, 01:58:09 PM »
Here's something very simple. Very very simple.
If you take a telescope and set it absolutely horizontally level and looking out to sea or a lake or any unobstructed land, then your telescopic sights should absolutely not see any horizon.....at all......if...the Earth was a globe.
You mean if Earth was flat.
Because a flat Earth should only have a horizon as the very edge of Earth which would likely be far too far away given the limited visibility through the atmosphere which would result in a blur rather than a clear horizon.

If Earth was round (as it is), then the ability to see it would depend on the FOV.

For example, assuming the telescope is at an elevation of 2 m above sea level (and a calm sea), then the horizon would be at an angle of roughly 2.7 arc minutes.
If the FOV was smaller than twice that, the horizon would not be visible, if the FOV was larger, it would be visible.

Also note that accurate measuring devices do measure this, confirming that Earth is a globe.

That's my opinion, though...but simple logic should tell most that it requires deep questioning.
Simple logic shows that your claim is pure nonsense.
And the actual evidence available further supports that by demonstrating that Earth is a globe.

But none of that addresses the topic. That is just you trying to support a FE. What would make you accept that Earth is round?
Is it only these strawmen that you wouldn't actually expect on a RE?

But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?
The limited visibility through the atmosphere would result in your view fading to a blur. On a FE, there should not be a clear horizon unless it is made of something like mountains.


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2020, 10:57:50 PM »
Thank you, sceptimatic, but you didn't answer my question. What would change YOUR mind, if anything?
I did answer it, sort of.
If I had a level scope and looked out to sea and only saw sky with no horizon, I'd go with a global model.
I do not see that, so by reality the global model we are indoctrinated into, is basically, dead

But, to reply to your post: it seems to me that if I were standing anywhere with water between myself and the edge of the world, I should be able, with a sufficiently strong telescope, to see the edge, since we're on the same plane, would you not agree?
Forget about standing near any edge of the world. Let's deal with what you observe in actual reality.

I'll repeat what I said.
If you ere standing with a perfectly horizontally level scope, looking out to sea and you know the Earth should be curving downwards from your point, then over a short distance your water disappears from your scope to be replaced by sky....only (taking into account unobstructed view).

You know in your own mind that you see water and sky. Basically your horizon that appears to suit your scope and eyesight for distance.
You clearly know you do not ever just see sky....so you should clearly understand that your Earth does not curve downwards away from you.

It really is as simple as that. Maybe too simple for the scientific one's who wish to rely on magical mysteries.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2020, 11:00:13 PM »
Taking that to it's natural conclusion, there would be no time, even with your naked eyes, that there should be a clearly delineated horizon because there is always something in your plane of vision behind it. Since we both agree that there is a clear line at the horizon, then there would have to be nothing behind it. Which would be a point in favor of a curvature to the Earth, would you not agree, sceptimatic?
No...not at all.
You see nothing behind your horizon because your vision does not carry light farther than that. It really is a s simple as that.
The fact you see an horizon tells you you are not stood on a globe.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2020, 11:03:38 PM »
Most people WANT to see some amazing evidence that reveals a whole new world that blows away current science and opens up entirely new possibilities and discoveries.

Flat Earth? That would be incredible. Hollow Earth with dinosaurs living in it? Give. FTL like Star Trek is possible? Hell yeah! If any of these were shown to be true, most people would be thrilled. How cool would that be.

Flat Earthers don't seem to feel the same, they show no interest at all in anything that doesn't support their view of a Flat Earth. No
 wonder or curiosity at what living on a massive ball flying through space would be like.

I suppose that's why these questions never get answers from them. Most Flat Earthers I've met don't WANT to learn anything that contradicts their beliefs, so can't imagine any evidence they would accept.
That's more like an ad hominem attack and a straw man fallacy.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 24790
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2020, 11:08:08 PM »
FE is a belief system. Nothing scientific about it.
That depends on what you regard as, scientific.
Scientific research has to appeal to realism or the pursuance of realism.
Anything other than that is pseudo-science or merely story telling.
The problem is, the global model is saturated in this stuff......so.....what to believe?


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2020, 12:39:40 AM »
Quote
If you take a telescope and set it absolutely horizontally level and looking out to sea or a lake or any unobstructed land, then your telescopic sights should absolutely not see any horizon.....at all......if...the Earth was a globe.

Haven't you got that the wrong way round?  By my reckoning the sharply defined horizon that we see when looking out to see on a clear day is directly observable evidence that the Earth is a globe.  The horizon is created by the surface of the Earth curving away out of direct view. If the Earth was flat there would be no horizon because there would be no 'cut off' point to what we can see directly.

If you were out at sea with a clear horizon in all directions then the horizon would be the same distance from you in all directions.  That is because the rate of curvature on a sphere is the same over the whole surface area.  It also explains why the horizon is flat. Not because the Earth is flat (although that is what flat Earthers would have you believe) but because you are seeing the same distance in all directions. Flat Earthers will naturally grab hold of with both hands any apparent evidence that suggests the Earth might be flat and yell 'there you go - told you so!' but then will also fail to consider any other possible explanations for what that evidence might mean.  I believe that is what the psychologists call conformation biasing.

The evidence that would change my mind about the Earth being flat has not been produced yet.  Mainly because it is impossible to produce it.

It would probably help if flat Earthers stopped coming out with their ridiculous claims such as those about the distance and size of the Sun and Moon.
Maybe don't wait for people to produce evidence....look yourself...and if you don't want to, then stick with the indoctrinated model we were all handed on a plate.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2020, 03:17:38 AM »
If I had a level scope and looked out to sea and only saw sky with no horizon, I'd go with a global model.
I do not see that, so by reality the global model we are indoctrinated into, is basically, dead
The problem is that that does not represent the globe model at all.
It is a straw-man.

It would be no better (and in fact is worse) than saying:
If I saw that Earth was made of cheese then I'd go with a flat model.
I do not see that, so by reality the flat model we are conned into, is basically, dead.

You are saying that you would only accept the reality of the round Earth if something that you would not expect for a RE is observed.

You know in your own mind that you see water and sky. Basically your horizon that appears to suit your scope and eyesight for distance.
You clearly know you do not ever just see sky....so you should clearly understand that your Earth does not curve downwards away from you.
It really is as simple as that. Maybe too simple for the scientific one's who wish to rely on magical mysteries.
No, it isn't as simple as that as you don't just see out at an infinitesimally small region. Instead you see a FOV which includes both above and below level.
And that region below includes the horizon.

But by actually comparing where level is to here the horizon is, you can see that the horizon does go below level and thus the region right at level is only sky.

e.g:

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JJA

  • 2721
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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 07:13:38 AM »
Most people WANT to see some amazing evidence that reveals a whole new world that blows away current science and opens up entirely new possibilities and discoveries.

Flat Earth? That would be incredible. Hollow Earth with dinosaurs living in it? Give. FTL like Star Trek is possible? Hell yeah! If any of these were shown to be true, most people would be thrilled. How cool would that be.

Flat Earthers don't seem to feel the same, they show no interest at all in anything that doesn't support their view of a Flat Earth. No
 wonder or curiosity at what living on a massive ball flying through space would be like.

I suppose that's why these questions never get answers from them. Most Flat Earthers I've met don't WANT to learn anything that contradicts their beliefs, so can't imagine any evidence they would accept.
That's more like an ad hominem attack and a straw man fallacy.

You did a good job of validating everything I've said.  You haven't answered the OPs question, just launched an attack on science with your post.

It's almost as if you are unable to comprehend the actual question that was asked, which proves my point.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 09:48:06 AM »
Thank you for your responses, scepticmatic, it is unfortunate that you're the only FEer who has responded.

I'm curious about your answer to my question, though. Do you mean to say that seeing the curvature of the Earth from a sufficient height with your own eyes would not change your mind? I don't call myself a scientist, but take me with you and show me a flat Earth and I'm yours for life.  No gadgets, no interpretations, no trusting in "faith" or "agreeing to disagree", nothing but our own eyes and what's out there. Above all, no condescension. We all have opinions. What scientists should do, if doing their jobs properly, is separate fact from opinion, no matter how unpopular that fact may be. To paraphrase Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the Earth doesn't care if we believe in it, it is.

Can you do that? Can you take me with you? Or are you just catfishing Jack (and reeling the rest of us in)?

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2020, 10:48:38 AM »
Quote
What would change your mind?
Nothing. Facts are facts and people should learn to deal with it.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2020, 11:57:42 AM »
What would change the mind of a flat Earther?  The answer is not a lot really because flat Earth is a conspiracy theory and those who support or believe in conspiracy theories rarely if ever change their minds about what they believe.

That's because the belief comes first and then they rise to the challenge of making all the evidence fit in with their belief. Some of that is easy some less so. But conspiracy theorists need one thing above anything else. They need another, larger group of people who disagree with them. That simply reinforces their belief. Because a common feature among all conspiracy theorists is the feeling of being special that comes with being part of a minority group that knows or thinks it knows something the rest of us don't.

As you will know the concept or the belief that the Earth is flat has been around for a long time at a low level.  The Internet has served to strengthen the links between believers just like it has with many other conspiracy theory followers. It provides an easily accessible, world wide and best of all completely anonymous communication channel. If you find you can connect with others who share your belief without so much as leaving your home then that helps to convince you that whatever it is you believe in is really true.  Safety in numbers you might call it.

So that takes me back to what I said at the start. What would change the mind of a flat Earth believer?  Very little I would suspect because they have already made up their minds. We can come up with whatever science based evidence we like, whatever internet links we like which provides evidence that the Earth is not flat.  The 'flat' (sorry for the punn) response to all that is that everything is faked, hoaxed or otherwise deliberately misrepresented and we are all being lied to.

In short being part of a conspiracy theory is a good way of generating a feeling of importance or power in a life which is otherwise probably rather unremarkable.  That's why you will often find comments posted which are deliberately provocative because they feed off the responses they get from them.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 12:08:35 PM by Solarwind »

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2020, 12:46:32 PM »
You can tell the Earth is flat or curved in your own backyard

Parallel Transport  8)


Draw out a triangle over an area

Take an arrow and put tangent to the Earth

Take another arrow with you and walk the triangle. Do not rotate the arrow locally

When you reach back to your starting point if the Earth is a sphere the arrow should be rotated differently than your starting one

I tried this in my backyard and guess what. Not a sphere  ::)

RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 01:01:55 PM »
You can tell the Earth is flat or curved in your own backyard

Parallel Transport  8)


Draw out a triangle over an area

Take an arrow and put tangent to the Earth

Take another arrow with you and walk the triangle. Do not rotate the arrow locally

When you reach back to your starting point if the Earth is a sphere the arrow should be rotated differently than your starting one

I tried this in my backyard and guess what. Not a sphere  ::)
Did wise take over your account?
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 01:09:24 PM »
Quote
Draw out a triangle over an area

How big an 'area'?  My back yard isn't huge.  So shall I take a walk down to my local park or does it need to be bigger than that?

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Shifter

  • 15866
  • Flat Earth Believer
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2020, 01:18:16 PM »
Quote
Draw out a triangle over an area

How big an 'area'?  My back yard isn't huge.  So shall I take a walk down to my local park or does it need to be bigger than that?

Well if your concerned it's not big enough you can walk over the area 100,000 times. I did a lap and thought 'Screw this! Looks the same to me!'
RIP rabinoz. Forum legend