What would change your mind?

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2020, 06:15:49 AM »
Most people WANT to see some amazing evidence that reveals a whole new world that blows away current science and opens up entirely new possibilities and discoveries.

Flat Earth? That would be incredible. Hollow Earth with dinosaurs living in it? Give. FTL like Star Trek is possible? Hell yeah! If any of these were shown to be true, most people would be thrilled. How cool would that be.

Flat Earthers don't seem to feel the same, they show no interest at all in anything that doesn't support their view of a Flat Earth. No
 wonder or curiosity at what living on a massive ball flying through space would be like.

I suppose that's why these questions never get answers from them. Most Flat Earthers I've met don't WANT to learn anything that contradicts their beliefs, so can't imagine any evidence they would accept.
That's more like an ad hominem attack and a straw man fallacy.

You did a good job of validating everything I've said.  You haven't answered the OPs question, just launched an attack on science with your post.

It's almost as if you are unable to comprehend the actual question that was asked, which proves my point.
Pay attention and you would see what would change my mind.
As for attacking. Take a look at this post of yours.
Feel free to use any which way you feel you need to go but just remember your digs will not deflect what I'm saying. It will only strengthen it.

You're the one deflecting, when asked a simple question you ignored it and went on an anti-science rant about how the Earth is flat.

If you claim you answered the question, please quote that part, or answer it again.  Just in case you forgot, this is the question.

What evidence would convince you the Earth was round?

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sokarul

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2020, 06:28:52 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?


You have your answer sok. Acting smug and saying 'try again' only makes you look like a male genetalia. A small petty one at that. If you can't debate with dignity and class I am done with you here
Do I need to ask easier questions?

The earth’s curve does not need to be taken into account to build a back yard concrete patio.

Well no it doesn't need to in order to build one. You can build it however sloppy you like

To parrot myself, you need to stop talking about science.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2020, 06:29:31 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?

Because you said so, silly.

You stated above that if the Earth is round and you build a patio there will be a curve on the patio.  You are saying that you can't build anything flat on a curved surface, and if that's true, you can't build curved objects on flat surfaces either.

You can't have it both ways, you can either build shapes however you see fit, or everything has to conform to the surface it's built on.

So which is it?  Were you wrong in your first post or wrong in your reply?  :)

Neither.


If the Earth is curved, a 10m distance of a patio that does not take into account said curve of the earth will contour the minute curve over that distance. SolarWind said his patio is flat. He never said anything about taking the alleged Earths curve in consideration when building it

Therefore we can conclude one of 2 things

His patio is not as flat as he says (Earth is curved)
His patio is flat like he says (Earth is flat)

Now, if the Earth is ~40K km in circumference, the actual curve across 10m will be indiscernible to the naked eye and most home owner tools. But the math wouldn't lie

Is SolarWind insists his patio is indeed flat while its construction did not take into account any alleged curve, than that is proof the Earth is flat
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2020, 08:05:04 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?

Because you said so, silly.

You stated above that if the Earth is round and you build a patio there will be a curve on the patio.  You are saying that you can't build anything flat on a curved surface, and if that's true, you can't build curved objects on flat surfaces either.

You can't have it both ways, you can either build shapes however you see fit, or everything has to conform to the surface it's built on.

So which is it?  Were you wrong in your first post or wrong in your reply?  :)

Neither.


If the Earth is curved, a 10m distance of a patio that does not take into account said curve of the earth will contour the minute curve over that distance. SolarWind said his patio is flat. He never said anything about taking the alleged Earths curve in consideration when building it

Therefore we can conclude one of 2 things

His patio is not as flat as he says (Earth is curved)
His patio is flat like he says (Earth is flat)

Now, if the Earth is ~40K km in circumference, the actual curve across 10m will be indiscernible to the naked eye and most home owner tools. But the math wouldn't lie

Is SolarWind insists his patio is indeed flat while its construction did not take into account any alleged curve, than that is proof the Earth is flat

You need to learn how to build things. You don't need to take into account the curve of the Earth to build a flat 10 meter patio. We have these marvelous things called measuring devices that can use to easily make you a flat surface. Doesn't matter is the Earth is round, flat or a squiggly line, a laser level is going to make it flat regardless of what the shape under it is.

Perhaps you should take some woodworking courses. :)

And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2020, 08:10:47 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2020, 08:11:49 AM »
Quote
There's plenty of stuff out there that verifies the Earth is not a globe we walk upon.
As for showing you....hmmm.....I've explained some basic stuff that, for me, is simple in proving what I said.

hmmm... I must have missed all that stuff that you mention.

As for showing you...  well as soon as you write 'for me..'  that turns your statement into an opinion and an opinion is a personal view and not proof of anything.
It depends on what you regard as proof.
What I've mentioned , is an opinion of mine, you are correct on that but it's also a proof to myself that I would never change my mind to go back to following a global indoctrinated model.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2020, 08:14:24 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2020, 08:23:17 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?


Sigh

Lets scale it up to 1000km then

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space

Comprehend?
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2020, 08:25:04 AM »
What evidence would convince you the Earth was round?
Nothing, because shifter already knows and believes the earth is round. He is just one of the pretend-to-be flatearthers.


He knows exactely why his 'experiments' are wrong (I mean it's quite obvious).
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2020, 08:25:49 AM »
Shifter can you please calculate me the amount of curve in your backyard on a globe scenario? How straight can you walk? How accurate are your angles when walking? Please calculate that aswell.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2020, 08:32:40 AM »
Those tubes can be looked upon to take them out of horizon line. You know this.
Not unless there is significant distortion from the camera.
No, it doesn't need any distortion of any camera.
What it does need is a camera that is set level to the level of the tube water levels and then you would see a level horizon to those marks.

However, like I said.....it doesn't prove a globe, it proves the opposite.

No matter how you want to play it, your Earth would always curve downwards from your level view. You would not see anything other than sky, in a short distance.

I'll make this easier.
If you stand up and have the scope at eye level and the scope horizontally level on a beach (for instance)... then immediately you are above the beach, meaning you will not see that beach because that beach is below you.
From that point your Earth should curve downwards, meaning, your immediate 5/6 feet worth of eye level sight is already moving horizontally into the distance while the sea should be gaining  in downward curve.
Basically you can never see any horizon line. It would be impossible on your globe.

We clearly do see a convergence which is our very own horizon line to our very own sight.
Without arguing for whatever alternate Earth there  may be, I can conclude with 100% confidence, we do not live on a globe and especially a spinning one.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 08:38:02 AM by sceptimatic »

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2020, 08:38:27 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?


Sigh

Lets scale it up to 1000km then

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space

Comprehend?

So now were changing the goalposts and talking about a 1000km patio? Fine.

I'm not sure why you seem so surprised that if you point a laser off into space instead of at the target, it won't hit the target. Duh.  ::)

If you actually aim the laser at the target, you can now build a flat patio.  You might have to do a lot of digging to get line of sight, but the laser will still go straight and you can build your nice 1000km flat patio.

It doesn't matter what shape the Earth is, it's not THAT hard to understand how to make something flat. :)

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2020, 08:41:57 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?


Sigh

Lets scale it up to 1000km then

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space

Comprehend?

So now were changing the goalposts and talking about a 1000km patio? Fine.

I'm not sure why you seem so surprised that if you point a laser off into space instead of at the target, it won't hit the target. Duh.  ::)

If you actually aim the laser at the target, you can now build a flat patio.  You might have to do a lot of digging to get line of sight, but the laser will still go straight and you can build your nice 1000km flat patio.

It doesn't matter what shape the Earth is, it's not THAT hard to understand how to make something flat. :)

Not shifting the goalposts at all. I only 'scaled it up' as an example to show you what I meant by flat. Maybe you and I had differing views on what, how or why is flat

Why are you so grumpy? Sheesh
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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rvlvr

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2020, 08:58:42 AM »
I am no longer that interested in the original topic, but as long as Sweden gets bashed, I am a happy camper!

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2020, 09:15:45 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?


Sigh

Lets scale it up to 1000km then

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space

Comprehend?

So now were changing the goalposts and talking about a 1000km patio? Fine.

I'm not sure why you seem so surprised that if you point a laser off into space instead of at the target, it won't hit the target. Duh.  ::)

If you actually aim the laser at the target, you can now build a flat patio.  You might have to do a lot of digging to get line of sight, but the laser will still go straight and you can build your nice 1000km flat patio.

It doesn't matter what shape the Earth is, it's not THAT hard to understand how to make something flat. :)

Not shifting the goalposts at all. I only 'scaled it up' as an example to show you what I meant by flat. Maybe you and I had differing views on what, how or why is flat

Why are you so grumpy? Sheesh

Well, if you have your own personal definition of words like 'flat' then that might be your problem. :)

The red line is curved.

The blue lines are flat.



I'm curious what you mean when you say flat. :)

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2020, 09:23:21 AM »
And I did the math for you.  A 10 meter patio is going to drop by 0.000002 meters at the edge. That's 50 to 100 times thinner than a human hair.

Indeed. So if the Earth is curved, SolarWinds patio is not so flat then.

Maybe you need to take basic English classes for reading comprehension too. :)

Did you miss the part where I said you don't NEED to take the Earths curve into account to build a flat 10 meter patio? It doesn't matter in the slightest. A laser level is going to work fine no matter what the shape of the ground under it is.

What part of basic construction methods confuses you?


Sigh

Lets scale it up to 1000km then

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space

Comprehend?

So now were changing the goalposts and talking about a 1000km patio? Fine.

I'm not sure why you seem so surprised that if you point a laser off into space instead of at the target, it won't hit the target. Duh.  ::)

If you actually aim the laser at the target, you can now build a flat patio.  You might have to do a lot of digging to get line of sight, but the laser will still go straight and you can build your nice 1000km flat patio.

It doesn't matter what shape the Earth is, it's not THAT hard to understand how to make something flat. :)

Not shifting the goalposts at all. I only 'scaled it up' as an example to show you what I meant by flat. Maybe you and I had differing views on what, how or why is flat

Why are you so grumpy? Sheesh

Well, if you have your own personal definition of words like 'flat' then that might be your problem. :)

The red line is curved.

The blue lines are flat.



I'm curious what you mean when you say flat. :)

Imagine paving the surface of that entire red line (outer shell of the Earth) so the whole thing is a patio. Is the patio 'flat'?

A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2020, 10:44:13 AM »
A (live) webcast from the moon showing Earth. 

Something any of us can tune into real time of see replay of.  "There's the hurricane."  "There was the Beirut explosion."   "There was the fireball crashing into Russian territory."  "New Year's Eve fireworks over Sydney look so small from the Moon..."   

China has rovers on the dark side of the moon.  Outfit the next rover with an LED spotlight, drive from the dark side to the visible side and flash Morse Code to Earth during a "moonless night". 

Those examples would be hard to refute. 

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2020, 11:04:48 AM »
Those tubes can be looked upon to take them out of horizon line. You know this.
Not unless there is significant distortion from the camera.
No, it doesn't need any distortion of any camera.
What it does need is a camera that is set level to the level of the tube water levels and then you would see a level horizon to those marks.

However, like I said.....it doesn't prove a globe, it proves the opposite.

No matter how you want to play it, your Earth would always curve downwards from your level view. You would not see anything other than sky, in a short distance.

How much of a short distance? And what are the dimensions of your earth?

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2020, 11:14:51 AM »
A (live) webcast from the moon showing Earth. 

Something any of us can tune into real time of see replay of.  "There's the hurricane."  "There was the Beirut explosion."   "There was the fireball crashing into Russian territory."  "New Year's Eve fireworks over Sydney look so small from the Moon..."   

China has rovers on the dark side of the moon.  Outfit the next rover with an LED spotlight, drive from the dark side to the visible side and flash Morse Code to Earth during a "moonless night". 

Those examples would be hard to refute.

You can get very close to this right now.

The DSCOVR sits a million miles away from the Earth and takes high resolution pictures every hour.  You can view these images on the NASA website.

https://epic.gsfc.nasa.gov/

Or from a closer perspective, actual live video from the ISS.  Even better, you can wait until the ISS is passing overhead and look up and see it while you watch the live feed.

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/iss_ustream.html

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2020, 11:16:38 AM »
Well, if you have your own personal definition of words like 'flat' then that might be your problem. :)

The red line is curved.

The blue lines are flat.



I'm curious what you mean when you say flat. :)

Imagine paving the surface of that entire red line (outer shell of the Earth) so the whole thing is a patio. Is the patio 'flat'?

If you cover the surface of a curve, you get a curved surface.

So no, a 'patio' that went all the way around the Earth would not be flat, it would be curved.

The 1000km 'patio' you described would look like one of the blue lines, slicing straight through the earth if you connected the two points.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2020, 11:23:46 AM »
Well, if you have your own personal definition of words like 'flat' then that might be your problem. :)

The red line is curved.

The blue lines are flat.



I'm curious what you mean when you say flat. :)

Imagine paving the surface of that entire red line (outer shell of the Earth) so the whole thing is a patio. Is the patio 'flat'?

If you cover the surface of a curve, you get a curved surface.

So no, a 'patio' that went all the way around the Earth would not be flat, it would be curved.

The 1000km 'patio' you described would look like one of the blue lines, slicing straight through the earth if you connected the two points.

Indeed and is not what I was talking about at all

The 1000km patio is on the surface. Obviously. So from one end to the other, it will obviously not be 'flat'.  It will curve around the surface of the Earth if the Earth is curved. Geez, it's not that hard to follow ::)

To
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2020, 11:33:54 AM »
I see my patio example is causing a bit of debate here.  So I take a 4 ft decking post and then dig a hole so that it rises above the ground level 2 ft.  I then take a 2nd post, dig a hole and place it in the ground a couple of metres away.  I then place a beam on top of the two posts and place a spirit level in the centre of the beam.  I then lightly knock each of the posts until the spirit level shows the bridging beam is completely level. With the posts secure and the tops of the posts all level with each other I secure them with concrete.

I then continue this pattern until I have a series of posts secured in the ground, the tops of which are all dead level with each other.  Finally I connect all the posts with a framework of beams so that they are all flush with the tops of the beams.

How does any of this provide any clues about the shape of the surface of the entire planet?  Simple answer.  It doesn't.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2020, 11:39:59 AM »
Well, if you have your own personal definition of words like 'flat' then that might be your problem. :)

The red line is curved.

The blue lines are flat.



I'm curious what you mean when you say flat. :)

Imagine paving the surface of that entire red line (outer shell of the Earth) so the whole thing is a patio. Is the patio 'flat'?

If you cover the surface of a curve, you get a curved surface.

So no, a 'patio' that went all the way around the Earth would not be flat, it would be curved.

The 1000km 'patio' you described would look like one of the blue lines, slicing straight through the earth if you connected the two points.

Indeed and is not what I was talking about at all

The 1000km patio is on the surface. Obviously. So from one end to the other, it will obviously not be 'flat'.  It will curve around the surface of the Earth if the Earth is curved. Geez, it's not that hard to follow ::)

To

You are very confused.

If your patio follows the red line, it's curved and not flat.

If your patio follows a blue line, it's flat.

It's not that hard to understand.  I even gave you a picture.  ;)

Do you understand yet how you can build a flat patio on a curved surface?  It doesn't matter what the shape is under it.  Just use a laser, build along that line and it's flat.  Simple.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2020, 11:55:46 AM »
Stop misrepresenting what I say with your own BS

If the surface of the Earth is curved, then a patio will follow the curve of the earth making it not exactly flat if you observe it from afar. Sure it may look flat from a human perspective. I suppose a bacteria would think the surface of an orange is pretty flat too

Your picture is a 2D circle. Not a 3D sphere.

PM me if you want to continue talking about it. I'm done with you boring the crap out of this thread. You obviously dont care to participate in good faith. Stop with this side tracking nonsense.

The OP 'What would change your mind?'

My answer was simply if parallel tracking would show a different vector to what you start with if you walk an area such as drawing out a triangle



Anyway, PM me if you want to continue this boring nonsense
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2020, 12:25:53 PM »
Stop misrepresenting what I say with your own BS

If the surface of the Earth is curved, then a patio will follow the curve of the earth making it not exactly flat if you observe it from afar. Sure it may look flat from a human perspective. I suppose a bacteria would think the surface of an orange is pretty flat too

Your picture is a 2D circle. Not a 3D sphere.

PM me if you want to continue talking about it. I'm done with you boring the crap out of this thread. You obviously dont care to participate in good faith. Stop with this side tracking nonsense.

You said a patio will follow the curve of the Earth, and all of this is just to show you that no it does not.  Remember, this is where we started.

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

If you build a patio all the way around the Earth following the curve, you get a curved patio.

If you build a flat patio, you get a flat patio.

Here is an example of a very large, flat patio built on the Earth.

Do you see the difference between flat and curved now?  The red line above is curved, the blue lines are flat.

You can also build a 10m flat patio just like that.  You can just ignore the 0.000002 meter drop a lot easier.  ::)


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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2020, 01:05:38 PM »
Stop misrepresenting what I say with your own BS

If the surface of the Earth is curved, then a patio will follow the curve of the earth making it not exactly flat if you observe it from afar. Sure it may look flat from a human perspective. I suppose a bacteria would think the surface of an orange is pretty flat too

Your picture is a 2D circle. Not a 3D sphere.

PM me if you want to continue talking about it. I'm done with you boring the crap out of this thread. You obviously dont care to participate in good faith. Stop with this side tracking nonsense.

You said a patio will follow the curve of the Earth, and all of this is just to show you that no it does not.  Remember, this is where we started.

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

If you build a patio all the way around the Earth following the curve, you get a curved patio.

If you build a flat patio, you get a flat patio.

Here is an example of a very large, flat patio built on the Earth.

Do you see the difference between flat and curved now?  The red line above is curved, the blue lines are flat.

You can also build a 10m flat patio just like that.  You can just ignore the 0.000002 meter drop a lot easier.  ::)



You're still misrepresenting what I said. Clearly you only do it for the audience because there is no PM from you.  I'm done with your trolling. POQ
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2020, 01:15:33 PM »
Stop misrepresenting what I say with your own BS

If the surface of the Earth is curved, then a patio will follow the curve of the earth making it not exactly flat if you observe it from afar. Sure it may look flat from a human perspective. I suppose a bacteria would think the surface of an orange is pretty flat too

Your picture is a 2D circle. Not a 3D sphere.

PM me if you want to continue talking about it. I'm done with you boring the crap out of this thread. You obviously dont care to participate in good faith. Stop with this side tracking nonsense.

The OP 'What would change your mind?'

My answer was simply if parallel tracking would show a different vector to what you start with if you walk an area such as drawing out a triangle



Anyway, PM me if you want to continue this boring nonsense
Is your garden as big as the triangle in your picture?
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You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2020, 01:25:54 PM »
Stop misrepresenting what I say with your own BS

If the surface of the Earth is curved, then a patio will follow the curve of the earth making it not exactly flat if you observe it from afar. Sure it may look flat from a human perspective. I suppose a bacteria would think the surface of an orange is pretty flat too

Your picture is a 2D circle. Not a 3D sphere.

PM me if you want to continue talking about it. I'm done with you boring the crap out of this thread. You obviously dont care to participate in good faith. Stop with this side tracking nonsense.

You said a patio will follow the curve of the Earth, and all of this is just to show you that no it does not.  Remember, this is where we started.

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

If you build a patio all the way around the Earth following the curve, you get a curved patio.

If you build a flat patio, you get a flat patio.

Here is an example of a very large, flat patio built on the Earth.

Do you see the difference between flat and curved now?  The red line above is curved, the blue lines are flat.

You can also build a 10m flat patio just like that.  You can just ignore the 0.000002 meter drop a lot easier.  ::)



You're still misrepresenting what I said. Clearly you only do it for the audience because there is no PM from you.  I'm done with your trolling. POQ

Funny, didn't you start this whole patio debate as a troll in the first place? :P

I'm not misrepresenting anything, I directly quoted what you said.  You claimed that his patio had to match the curvature (or lack of) of the Earth, which is total nonsense.  A patio being flat or not doesn't prove anything about the shape of the surface it's sitting on. You can make it any shape you want.

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept.

If I make a car, does it have to conform to the shape of the factory? Square factories make square cars? Round factories make round cars?


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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2020, 01:39:49 PM »
If I make a car, does it have to conform to the shape of the factory? Square factories make square cars? Round factories make round cars?
Well said, mate!
Maybe now even shittler will understand it, but tbh I doubt it. Even simple drawings seem to confuse him.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2020, 02:24:00 PM »
Please make a drawing of that. You know exactely it doesnt work like that.
Assuming you do it perfectly, and the surface is perfectly spherical, it does work like that.
The angle sum of the triangle is given by:
A=pi + A*K, where K is the curvature, for a sphere equal to 1/r^2.
So for Earth's ~6371000 m radius, the curvature is ~2.4*10-14 m-2.

So if you covered an area of 100 m2, the spherical excess would be ~2.5*10-12 radians, or ~5.1*10-7 arcseconds.

That means if you took a bar along that path, it would have appeared to rotate by ~5.1*10-7 arc seconds, compared to how it started.
If you did it 1 billion times, it would have appeared to rotate by ~0.14 degrees.
If you did it 1 trillion times, it would have appeared to rotate by ~140 degrees.

In practice, it doesn't work like that.
Each time you turn the corner you likely introduce a small error in the angle, and the surface is likely not a perfect shear. If it is irregular then instead of just using the Gaussian curvature of a sphere, you need to integrate over the area, including the Gaussian curvature of all of it.

For example, with the simple extreme case of an almost perfect cube (which is topologically equivalent to a sphere) with an extremely large Gaussian curvature at the corners (due to the edges and corners being rounded ever so slightly to avoid having sharp edges with infinite curvature) and a Gaussian curvature of 0 elsewhere, then for most of the surface it has an excess of 0 degrees, but each corner you include in the shape gives an excess of 90 degrees.


Therefore we can conclude one of 2 things

His patio is not as flat as he says (Earth is curved)
His patio is flat like he says (Earth is flat)
And by that lack of reasoning we can conclude that any round surface shows Earth is round.

In order to claim otherwise you need to explain a flat patio could not be constructed on a round Eath.

If the Earth is curved then the end of one end of the patio would not line up with the end of the other end. Take your laser and hold it 1cm off the ground and put a target on the other end of the patio 1cm off the ground. If the Earth is curved, the laser will not hit the target but shoot off into space
Comprehend?
That is if it is level, not flat.
If you construct it flat, then it does.
Flat and level are different.
You can construct a flat object which is not level.
Comprehend?

If you would like an example, consider LIGO.
An object which was constructed to be "flat", in the sense that the light paths are straight, rather than following the curvature of Earth's surface.
This could have been constructed in one of 2 ways and achieve the same result.
The simplest and fastest (due to the large size) is to account for the curvature and terrain of Earth so construction can begin everywhere. Each location can know how far down to dig and go much faster than the latter method. Then precision alignment only occurs at the final stage.
The more time consuming is to start building in one location, and then align everything to it. This works regardless of the shape of Earth, it just means if you didn't dig down far enough at the first spot, you need to dig further down and scrap most of the effort put in.

Imagine paving the surface of that entire red line (outer shell of the Earth) so the whole thing is a patio. Is the patio 'flat'?
But that isn't what anyone suggested.
Instead it is just a small patio. Why can't that small patio be flat?

I see my patio example is causing a bit of debate here.  So I take a 4 ft decking post and then dig a hole so that it rises above the ground level 2 ft.  I then take a 2nd post, dig a hole and place it in the ground a couple of metres away.  I then place a beam on top of the two posts and place a spirit level in the centre of the beam.  I then lightly knock each of the posts until the spirit level shows the bridging beam is completely level. With the posts secure and the tops of the posts all level with each other I secure them with concrete.

I then continue this pattern until I have a series of posts secured in the ground, the tops of which are all dead level with each other.  Finally I connect all the posts with a framework of beams so that they are all flush with the tops of the beams.
In that case, assuming it is done perfectly, it is level, not flat.