What would change your mind?

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Stash

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 01:22:56 PM »
You can tell the Earth is flat or curved in your own backyard

Parallel Transport  8)


Draw out a triangle over an area

Take an arrow and put tangent to the Earth

Take another arrow with you and walk the triangle. Do not rotate the arrow locally

When you reach back to your starting point if the Earth is a sphere the arrow should be rotated differently than your starting one

I tried this in my backyard and guess what. Not a sphere  ::)

Totally agree, your backyard is not a sphere.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2020, 01:33:43 PM »
Quote
Well if your concerned it's not big enough you can walk over the area 100,000 times. I did a lap and thought 'Screw this! Looks the same to me!'

My back yard is mostly a large patio area which I know is flat because when we (a friend and I) built it we made sure it was flat so it would provide a decent firm base for my home observatory among other things.  I could walk over it a million times and it would still be flat.

If it was as easy to prove the Earth is flat as you suggest then why do these forums still exist?  Surely you have provided the answer for all of us in a few lines of text.  Job done!

Please excuse me while I go an chuck all my textbooks away and report the error to the millions of websites which are all quoting the Earths shape as a sphere.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 01:36:14 PM by Solarwind »

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2020, 01:37:03 PM »
Quote
Well if your concerned it's not big enough you can walk over the area 100,000 times. I did a lap and thought 'Screw this! Looks the same to me!'

My back yard is mostly a large patio area which I know is flat because when we (a friend and I) built it we made sure it was flat so it would provide a decent firm base for my home observatory among other things.  I could walk over it a million times and it would still be flat.

If it was as easy to prove the Earth is flat as you suggest then why do these forums still exist?  Surely you have provided the answer for all of us in a few lines of text.  Job done!

If you believe the Earth to be curved then even the small area of your patio must take into account the curvature of the Earth to ensure it is level and flat. My guess is that you didn't and your patio is flat. Therefore based on your patio we can conclude the Earth has no curvature  8) Job done!

A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 02:22:53 PM »
Well if your concerned it's not big enough you can walk over the area 100,000 times. I did a lap and thought 'Screw this! Looks the same to me!'
The problem is that each time you turn to follow another leg of the triangle you introduce a small error, which can add up or cancel as you repeat the loop.
But I agree with Stash. Your backyard is not a sphere.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 02:32:54 PM »
Well if your concerned it's not big enough you can walk over the area 100,000 times. I did a lap and thought 'Screw this! Looks the same to me!'
The problem is that each time you turn to follow another leg of the triangle you introduce a small error, which can add up or cancel as you repeat the loop.
But I agree with Stash. Your backyard is not a sphere.

Well the point of the test was to determine if the earth was a sphere (or spherical). The conclusion drawn from the result of the test I found was that it was not a sphere. The backyard was just the place I used for the test.

But sure, we can all agree that my backyard is not a sphere. That's something we can all agree on
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 03:34:43 PM »
Well the point of the test was to determine if the earth was a sphere (or spherical). The conclusion drawn from the result of the test I found was that it was not a sphere. The backyard was just the place I used for the test.

But sure, we can all agree that my backyard is not a sphere. That's something we can all agree on
But all it shows is that your backyard has insignificant curvature and thus is not a sphere.
It says nothing about the overall shape of Earth.
Someone could do the same on a hill and conclude that Earth isn't flat.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 03:49:12 PM »
So you mean to say that Shifter might be wrong..!  Darn it I'd better go fetch all my books out of the bin that I threw away earlier...

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 03:57:17 PM »
So you mean to say that Shifter might be wrong..!  Darn it I'd better go fetch all my books out of the bin that I threw away earlier...

You already proved the earth was flat when you observed your patio being flat while not taking into account any alleged curvature of the earth in its construction
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sokarul

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2020, 04:06:24 PM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?
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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2020, 04:25:09 PM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

It might not be much, but the number would not be zero.
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2020, 04:31:59 PM »
I wondered why the floor in my living room is slightly raised in the middle. Obviously the builders didn't take the Earths curvature into account either!

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2020, 04:33:15 PM »
I wondered why the floor in my living room is slightly raised in the middle. Obviously the builders didn't take the Earths curvature into account either!

That would do it! 8)
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sokarul

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2020, 04:51:19 PM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

It might not be much, but the number would not be zero.
Question asked was “
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?”
Answer given was not pertaining to said question. Try again.
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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2020, 05:40:33 PM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2020, 06:12:32 PM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?


You have your answer sok. Acting smug and saying 'try again' only makes you look like a male genetalia. A small petty one at that. If you can't debate with dignity and class I am done with you here
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2020, 10:27:49 PM »
If I had a level scope and looked out to sea and only saw sky with no horizon, I'd go with a global model.
I do not see that, so by reality the global model we are indoctrinated into, is basically, dead
The problem is that that does not represent the globe model at all.
It is a straw-man.

It would be no better (and in fact is worse) than saying:
If I saw that Earth was made of cheese then I'd go with a flat model.
I do not see that, so by reality the flat model we are conned into, is basically, dead.

You are saying that you would only accept the reality of the round Earth if something that you would not expect for a RE is observed.

You know in your own mind that you see water and sky. Basically your horizon that appears to suit your scope and eyesight for distance.
You clearly know you do not ever just see sky....so you should clearly understand that your Earth does not curve downwards away from you.
It really is as simple as that. Maybe too simple for the scientific one's who wish to rely on magical mysteries.
No, it isn't as simple as that as you don't just see out at an infinitesimally small region. Instead you see a FOV which includes both above and below level.
And that region below includes the horizon.

But by actually comparing where level is to here the horizon is, you can see that the horizon does go below level and thus the region right at level is only sky.

e.g:

Show me a level scope looking at the level tubes. Those tubes can be looked upon to take them out of horizon line. You know this.
However, it still does not address the issue.

The issue is simple. Very very simple.
The issue is.....there should absolutely, 100% certain, not be any horizon line....at all if we supposedly live on top of a globe.

It doesn't matter how it's dressed up, the Earth should curve downwards from your level scope sight. Earth should disappear from your level sight almost right away...and this is only standing on a beach.

If you are looking from a tower or a mountain or a plane and looking absolutely level, your Earth is gone, to be replaced by sky...only.
There would be no horizon lines.


The Earth is 100% not a globe we walk upon.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2020, 10:35:10 PM »
Most people WANT to see some amazing evidence that reveals a whole new world that blows away current science and opens up entirely new possibilities and discoveries.

Flat Earth? That would be incredible. Hollow Earth with dinosaurs living in it? Give. FTL like Star Trek is possible? Hell yeah! If any of these were shown to be true, most people would be thrilled. How cool would that be.

Flat Earthers don't seem to feel the same, they show no interest at all in anything that doesn't support their view of a Flat Earth. No
 wonder or curiosity at what living on a massive ball flying through space would be like.

I suppose that's why these questions never get answers from them. Most Flat Earthers I've met don't WANT to learn anything that contradicts their beliefs, so can't imagine any evidence they would accept.
That's more like an ad hominem attack and a straw man fallacy.

You did a good job of validating everything I've said.  You haven't answered the OPs question, just launched an attack on science with your post.

It's almost as if you are unable to comprehend the actual question that was asked, which proves my point.
Pay attention and you would see what would change my mind.
As for attacking. Take a look at this post of yours.
Feel free to use any which way you feel you need to go but just remember your digs will not deflect what I'm saying. It will only strengthen it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2020, 10:44:22 PM »
Thank you for your responses, scepticmatic, it is unfortunate that you're the only FEer who has responded.

I'm curious about your answer to my question, though. Do you mean to say that seeing the curvature of the Earth from a sufficient height with your own eyes would not change your mind? I don't call myself a scientist, but take me with you and show me a flat Earth and I'm yours for life.  No gadgets, no interpretations, no trusting in "faith" or "agreeing to disagree", nothing but our own eyes and what's out there. Above all, no condescension. We all have opinions. What scientists should do, if doing their jobs properly, is separate fact from opinion, no matter how unpopular that fact may be. To paraphrase Neil DeGrasse Tyson, the Earth doesn't care if we believe in it, it is.

Can you do that? Can you take me with you? Or are you just catfishing Jack (and reeling the rest of us in)?
There's plenty of stuff out there that verifies the Earth is not a globe we walk upon.
As for showing you....hmmm.....I've explained some basic stuff that, for me, is simple in proving what I said.

That's my proof. As for you, It's up to you to delve in and question it for yourself. You do not need me or anyone else to make you believe anything. Look at it all and if you want to delve in, you may see something that peaks your interest. If not then you stay as you are.

Either way, what you believe has no bearing on me.



Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2020, 12:18:33 AM »
Quote
There's plenty of stuff out there that verifies the Earth is not a globe we walk upon.
As for showing you....hmmm.....I've explained some basic stuff that, for me, is simple in proving what I said.

hmmm... I must have missed all that stuff that you mention.

As for showing you...  well as soon as you write 'for me..'  that turns your statement into an opinion and an opinion is a personal view and not proof of anything.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2020, 02:22:10 AM »
It might not be much, but the number would not be zero.
But it would be within the error of levelling it.

And seriously? kilokilometers?
Why not just use Mm?

Those tubes can be looked upon to take them out of horizon line. You know this.
Not unless there is significant distortion from the camera.
Otherwise, you cannot magically turn a straight line (such as a line connecting the water levels to the "horizon" for a FE), into not being straight.

So no, with that setup there is no need to have them perfectly aligned, and those photo show the horizon below eye level.
but imperceptibly so near sea level.

However, it still does not address the issue.
That, along with my previous post addressed the issue in 2 ways, first by pointing out that seeing the horizon or not is dependent upon the FOV, and showing the horizon is not at level.

The issue is.....there should absolutely, 100% certain, not be any horizon line....at all if we supposedly live on top of a globe.
WHY?
There should certainly be a horizon due to the edge of Earth. It is a Flat Earth that should never have a horizon, unless it is due to mountains or teh very edge as otherwise the limited visibility through the atmosphere would result in nothing more than a blur, similar to a very foggy day.
As for seeing it, unless you are up very high, or have a FOV of basically 0, you would expect to see it.

How about instead of just repeating the same refuted, false assertion, you actually try to justify it?
Such as by doing the math to show just how far below eye level the horizon should be, like I did for an eye at 2 m, where the horizon should be 2.7 arc minutes below level. So unless your FOV is tiny, less than 5.4 arc minutes, YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THE HORIZON!

It doesn't matter how it's dressed up, the Earth should curve downwards from your level scope sight. Earth should disappear from your level sight almost right away...and this is only standing on a beach.
You mean it should drop to 2.7 arc minutes below level. i.e. a tiny amount.

If you are looking from a tower or a mountain or a plane and looking absolutely level, your Earth is gone, to be replaced by sky...only.
There would be no horizon lines.
By that insanity, if you were looking at a round object, like a basketball, you shouldn't be able to see any of it unless your eye was right up against it; balls, or any round object should be invisible.
A tower 1 km tall on Earth would be equivalent to roughly 1 hair width on a basketball. So by your lack of reasoning unless your eye was within a hair's width of a basketball, it should be invisible.

That is clearly pure nonsense.

Back in reality, the angle that Earth should subtend, at a given height h is determined by:
2*arcsin(r/(r+h))

Also note that this is the same formula as for any spherical object. You could even replace r+h with the distance to the centre.

Even at an altitude of 100 km, Earth should still take up 160 degrees of your FOV.
At an altitude of 1000 km, it takes up 120 degrees.

Again, you are literally saying that the only thing you would accept to show Earth is round, is something you wouldn't expect if Earth was round, i.e. something which would show Earth is not round.
i.e. you would not accept Earth is round based upon things which show it is.

There's plenty of stuff out there that verifies the Earth is not a globe we walk upon.
Like what?
Your strawman which in no way represents what you would actually expect a round Earth to look like or produce and thus in no way proves that Earth is not a globe?
Is everything that you have seen based upon either completely misunderstanding what you would expect for a RE or knowingly pretending you would expect something you shouldn't?

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2020, 03:35:40 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2020, 04:20:11 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!

What has your opinion of me got to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have anything to add or are you yourself a low content poster troll in a bad mood?

If you feel my replies here are trolling, report the posts then

Parallel transport is an effective way to determine if your seemingly flat area has a curve. That is a fact. Facts are probably not something they teach in Sweden though so I'll try not to hold it against you
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2020, 05:17:11 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!

What has your opinion of me got to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have anything to add or are you yourself a low content poster troll in a bad mood?

If you feel my replies here are trolling, report the posts then

Parallel transport is an effective way to determine if your seemingly flat area has a curve. That is a fact. Facts are probably not something they teach in Sweden though so I'll try not to hold it against you
You know very well that the triangle thing does only work on a globe if you walk a certain distance which is way loger than the lenght of your tiny backyard.

And you asking me to report the posts is literally only you wanting me to break the rules so I get banned.


Tgus I conclude you are only interested in getting other people banned.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2020, 05:25:40 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!

What has your opinion of me got to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have anything to add or are you yourself a low content poster troll in a bad mood?

If you feel my replies here are trolling, report the posts then

Parallel transport is an effective way to determine if your seemingly flat area has a curve. That is a fact. Facts are probably not something they teach in Sweden though so I'll try not to hold it against you
You know very well that the triangle thing does only work on a globe if you walk a certain distance which is way loger than the lenght of your tiny backyard.

And you asking me to report the posts is literally only you wanting me to break the rules so I get banned.


Tgus I conclude you are only interested in getting other people banned.

You can also walk a smaller area multiple times.
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2020, 05:26:34 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!

What has your opinion of me got to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have anything to add or are you yourself a low content poster troll in a bad mood?

If you feel my replies here are trolling, report the posts then

Parallel transport is an effective way to determine if your seemingly flat area has a curve. That is a fact. Facts are probably not something they teach in Sweden though so I'll try not to hold it against you
You know very well that the triangle thing does only work on a globe if you walk a certain distance which is way loger than the lenght of your tiny backyard.

And you asking me to report the posts is literally only you wanting me to break the rules so I get banned.


Tgus I conclude you are only interested in getting other people banned.

You can also walk a smaller area multiple times.
Please make a drawing of that. You know exactely it doesnt work like that.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2020, 05:35:14 AM »
@jackblack

Shifter/shittler is nothing but a bad troll. His only goal is to make you mad so you get banned again.

Funny enough, the mods dont mind the trolls but if you react to them in the appropriate way...enjoy your perma!

What has your opinion of me got to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have anything to add or are you yourself a low content poster troll in a bad mood?

If you feel my replies here are trolling, report the posts then

Parallel transport is an effective way to determine if your seemingly flat area has a curve. That is a fact. Facts are probably not something they teach in Sweden though so I'll try not to hold it against you
You know very well that the triangle thing does only work on a globe if you walk a certain distance which is way loger than the lenght of your tiny backyard.

And you asking me to report the posts is literally only you wanting me to break the rules so I get banned.


Tgus I conclude you are only interested in getting other people banned.

You can also walk a smaller area multiple times.
Please make a drawing of that. You know exactely it doesnt work like that.

Every time you get back to your starting point, your vector should be changed slightly. The more times you go around, the greater the difference should be if the Earth is curved

Obviously you're not here to contribute to the topic at hand, so I'm done schooling you.
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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sokarul

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2020, 05:46:03 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?


You have your answer sok. Acting smug and saying 'try again' only makes you look like a male genetalia. A small petty one at that. If you can't debate with dignity and class I am done with you here
Do I need to ask easier questions?

The earth’s curve does not need to be taken into account to build a back yard concrete patio.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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Shifter

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2020, 05:52:06 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?


You have your answer sok. Acting smug and saying 'try again' only makes you look like a male genetalia. A small petty one at that. If you can't debate with dignity and class I am done with you here
Do I need to ask easier questions?

The earth’s curve does not need to be taken into account to build a back yard concrete patio.

Well no it doesn't need to in order to build one. You can build it however sloppy you like
A Future Is Not Given To You. It Is Something You Must Take For Yourself

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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2020, 06:12:37 AM »
Shifter can you please calculate me the amount of curve in your backyard on a globe scenario? How straight can you walk? How accurate are your angles when walking? Please calculate that aswell.
Quote from: croutons, the s.o.w.
You have received a warning for breaking the laws of mathematics.

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JJA

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2020, 06:12:50 AM »
What curvature would he have to take into account on a round earth?

Well if the earth was round spheroid close to 40K km across and you had a patio that was 10m2, there will be a curve across that 10m.

Going by that logic, if the Earth was flat, it would be impossible to build anything that curved.  ::)

That's silly. Of course you still could. Why not?

Because you said so, silly.

You stated above that if the Earth is round and you build a patio there will be a curve on the patio.  You are saying that you can't build anything flat on a curved surface, and if that's true, you can't build curved objects on flat surfaces either.

You can't have it both ways, you can either build shapes however you see fit, or everything has to conform to the surface it's built on.

So which is it?  Were you wrong in your first post or wrong in your reply?  :)