What would change your mind?

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1530 on: November 25, 2020, 04:46:43 AM »


Can somone draw SAME PICTURE the sticks as stick people with heads and then rotate the image so the people are "on level" and the curve down is a "hump"?

From what he said, i believe he thinks the only way for something to block your view is to hump "up".
And he dails to realise that going "down" and away would produce rhe same effect

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1531 on: November 25, 2020, 06:38:39 AM »

As distance is increased on a flat earth, all objects shrink, and on a globe earth, all objects sink. As distance is decreased on a flat earth, all objects enlarge, and on a globe earth, all objects rise from the ground.
How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

It's not just my globe, I share it with you and the rest of humanity.

In answer to your question, because on a globe, when distance between two objects is decreased, the amount of curving occurring between the two objects is decreased. This allows the viewer to see the object starting from the top and going all the way to the bottom.

Buy yourself a basketball or beach ball, glue different sized objects to it, and experiment what you see when you rotate the objects away from you, and then rotate them forward.

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rvlvr

  • 2034
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1532 on: November 25, 2020, 07:00:25 AM »
This is gold:



But as per Poe's law, I cannot really say whether serious or not.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1533 on: November 25, 2020, 12:38:29 PM »
Can somone draw SAME PICTURE the sticks as stick people with heads and then rotate the image so the people are "on level" and the curve down is a "hump"?
Already provided to him before (but not drawn to scale because I couldn't be bothered):

It doesn't easily show the base obstructed, because it's hidden by the green bulge.

The problem is he seems to be perfectly fine to have perspective make things appear higher than they are if they are below him, but not for a globe. He seems to think that for a globe, perspective magically stops working and instead things that are below you will always appear below you, never capable of rising up to appear in your FOV.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1534 on: November 25, 2020, 12:59:16 PM »
no
not what i meant.

look at video giggle tits lady
1:99 where she rotates the person, fails to rotate the lighthouse, and fails to apply correct line of site (where she thinks people only see in 1dimension, not even 2!).



Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1535 on: November 25, 2020, 03:57:32 PM »
no
not what i meant.

look at video giggle tits lady
1:99 where she rotates the person, fails to rotate the lighthouse, and fails to apply correct line of site (where she thinks people only see in 1dimension, not even 2!).

Right, something like this?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1536 on: November 25, 2020, 04:03:32 PM »
There we go sceppy
Over to you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1537 on: November 25, 2020, 10:22:48 PM »
If the water is not curving up then stop using that to play, hide the buildings. You can't have it both ways.
And again you don't understand.
The water is not curving up to hide the buildings.
From the observers POV, the water curves down away from them.
This eventually hits the horizon, where their line of sight is tangent to the curving.
But it continues to curve down and the building is then in this section.
The horizon obscured the bottom portion of the building.

No curving up is required.

You have already been provided a picture of this, here it is again:

Notice how it just curves down away from the observer?

Now you might claim that it curves up away from the building, but remember, up and down is relative, just like left and right.

And yet again you ignore the simple argument that shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong.
When will you decide to address it?

Your picture shows an angled view.
We are not dealing with an angled view. You know this so why are you using it?
My picture shows a level view, with a FOV of 90 degrees.
It includes 45 degrees below level and 45 degrees above.


Now how about you address the point made rather than looking for whatever excuse you can to dismiss it and pretend to have a point?
Show me the level view from left to right.
Do you mean what the person sees?
If so, that was also provided before.
If you mean a side on view showing the setup, that is what that picture is.
And again you just look for excuses rather than dealing with the argument that was presented.
Again, this is to presented this time to show how curving down can obstruct the distant buildings.
How about you stop looking for excuses and start addressing the issues?

And again you ignore the extreme simple argument showing one of your earliest claims in this thread is an outright lie.
Are you really incapable of honestly and rationally engaging with it?
If you can't show anything wrong with it this means you have no justification for your claim, and no actual objection to the RE.
Here it is again, care to address it this time:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.

Curving up?
You people use curving up.
You people use a hump to argue half lost buildings.
No, we use curving down from your position. Not curving up.
Just like the diagram I presented.

So what are you trying to show me with railway tracks.

I see a convergence.
What am I supposed to see?
You should be seeing that things below you (like the RE) can appear higher. That you can see the rail "below" your line of sight, even though you cannot see the part directly below you.
Thus your argument for why you shouldn't see the horizon on RE IS WRONG!

Also, while you should see the tracks converging, you should also notice that they end before they converge. Further evidence against the horizon being the convergence point.


How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?
They aren't raising from the ground, visually the ground is rising.
This has also been explained to you, with you unable to show anything wrong with it so you just ignore it to pretend you weren't refuted yet again.

On a globe, there are 2 competing effects.
Perspective making things below you appear higher, and the curvature of Earth making everything appear lower the further away it is.
In a region close to you, up to some distance depending on several factors, perspective wins, causing Earth to appear to rise up towards the centre of your FOV.
In a more distant region, the curvature wins, and things just appear to get lower and lower. the horizon is.
Which coloured line is supposed to be the level line?

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1538 on: November 25, 2020, 10:25:24 PM »
Quote
How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

You mean to tell us that you really can't figure that out?  It's not that hard and I think we've already given you more than enough explanation (including diagrams) of how this works.  We cannot learn it for you.  That much you need to do yourself.

Is your definition of a sphere/globe the same as everyone elses?
Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1539 on: November 25, 2020, 10:34:49 PM »
It's not just my globe, I share it with you and the rest of humanity.
Nope, you don't share it with anyone because you do not live on one. In my opinion.


Quote from: Smoke Machine
In answer to your question, because on a globe, when distance between two objects is decreased, the amount of curving occurring between the two objects is decreased. This allows the viewer to see the object starting from the top and going all the way to the bottom.

Buy yourself a basketball or beach ball, glue different sized objects to it, and experiment what you see when you rotate the objects away from you, and then rotate them forward.
It doesn't solve the level sight. Answer with a realistic standing on that basket ball, not you looking at someone disappearing as you rotate it.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1540 on: November 25, 2020, 10:44:02 PM »
Quote
How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

You mean to tell us that you really can't figure that out?  It's not that hard and I think we've already given you more than enough explanation (including diagrams) of how this works.  We cannot learn it for you.  That much you need to do yourself.

Is your definition of a sphere/globe the same as everyone elses?
Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

Define eye level.


No
Show a picture of what eye level is.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1541 on: November 26, 2020, 02:25:57 AM »
Quote
How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

You mean to tell us that you really can't figure that out?  It's not that hard and I think we've already given you more than enough explanation (including diagrams) of how this works.  We cannot learn it for you.  That much you need to do yourself.

Is your definition of a sphere/globe the same as everyone elses?
Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

Define eye level.


No
Show a picture of what eye level is.
Forget eye level if you can't understand it. Just use horizontally level, like spirit level.

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rvlvr

  • 2034
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1542 on: November 26, 2020, 02:28:56 AM »
Why can't you provide a pic to help us understand it better?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1543 on: November 26, 2020, 02:51:25 AM »
And of course, you still ignore the irrefutable argument that shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong.
Why do you keep ignoring it?
Here it is again:
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.

Which coloured line is supposed to be the level line?
None.
Your view is not a line.
Any view has a FOV.
Do you understand that?
Not a line, a region.

This region is represented by the brown lines in the picture.
Everything inside that is inside your FOV, is inside your level view.

And yet again, you ignore the actual point of that picture.
Once more, here is the picture:

Notice that the Earth curves down from the observer.
Notice that this curve blocks the bottom of the distant object.

We don't need Earth to curve up to obstruct the view to distant objects.

Also notice that the ground directly at their feet is not inside the FOV, but further away it is.

Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.
Already did, and already provided in the argument.
But like always, YOU IGNORED IT!
It is the very same thing you need to make your FE ground rise up to eye level.
PERSPECTIVE!
Your eyes see based upon angles not height.

Something 1 m below eye-line, 1 m in front of it will be at an angle of ~45 degrees below level.
But something 1 m below your eye-line 1 km in front of it will only be at an angle of 0.06 degrees.

Once again, there are 2 effects at play, one is the Earth physically curving down making it physically lower, the other is perspective making things below you appear higher.

At short range, perspective wins. At long range, curvature does.
The point were they are equal is the horizon.

Here is another picture you will likely ignore or find an excuse to dismiss:

The red is for a flat Earth, the green is for a round Earth with a radius of 6371 km.
The x axis shows the distance from the observer, going straight (not following the curve).
The left y axis, along with the solid lines, show the physical height, measured from the height of the observer (note, even a flat Earth doesn't have it magically rise up).

The right y axis, along with the dotted lines, shows the angular position.
Note that for a FE, the ground continues rising, but the rate at which it rises slows dramatically.
This means it will still never get to exactly eye level, and there will never actually be a horizon as there will always be further than you can see.

Note that for a RE, initially perspective wins, with the Earth appearing to rise up. But eventually the curving down becomes dominant, and it starts appearing lower. This means this more distant land is blocked from view by the closer land.

Here is another diagram, but for a larger distance:

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1544 on: November 26, 2020, 03:02:22 AM »
Quote
Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

You really don't understand simple geometry do you.   If there's any brain engaging that needs to be done around here it is yours, not mine.... and that also seems to be the opinion of everyone else on here so it's definitely not me.

And yes you are right about one thing though.  Your claim that we don't all live on a globe is just your opinion.  Nothing more.  Have you ever been wrong in your life before?  If not then please tell me your secret.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1545 on: November 26, 2020, 03:12:54 AM »
Why can't you provide a pic to help us understand it better?

Wtf is spirit level?
Haha wtf?!

Also
I agree
Just show us a pciture of what you figure eye level is.
Because youve used that phrase several times just now and really, with your history and mis use of the enlish language we dont need to drag on for another 50pg trying to figure outbwhat youre on about



That said... amazing
Truly amazing!

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1546 on: November 26, 2020, 03:20:55 AM »
Quote
How can all objects rise from the ground on your globe when it's supposed to be curving away and DOWN, from you?

You mean to tell us that you really can't figure that out?  It's not that hard and I think we've already given you more than enough explanation (including diagrams) of how this works.  We cannot learn it for you.  That much you need to do yourself.

Is your definition of a sphere/globe the same as everyone elses?
Engage your brain and tell me how something that curves away and down from you can suddenly rise to your eye level.
Just simply explain it.

It has been explained.  Repeatedly. Simply. Clearly.   In fact it was explained in the post you quoted before this one (and apparently it was posted again while I wrote this).  Here, I will quote it again  -

Quote from: JackBlack

1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level ....


This is an incredibly simple and clear geometric explanation of what the horizon is and where it is from the vantage point above a sphere.  It does not rely on any beliefs or preconceived notions, it is just an explanation of geometry and perspective.  The same type of analysis could be done for a vantage over a cube, a pyramid, or any other geometrically defined surface.   

It is simple,  about at the level of what a reasonably thinking 10 year old could understand.  There is no trick, no requirement you believe a certain way to understand it, just the normal (but still amazing) ability to abstract geometric concepts.  Not being able to understand this as an adult means that there is something abnormal with the way you think, in the way that you either take in or process information.   Thats okay, we all have our faults and challenges in life, and homogeneity of thought is not something anyone should ever want,  but you should realize this about yourself, and understand that unless YOU put in a lot of effort, you will neither understand people, nor be able to have your own concepts understood.  It isn't about agreeing or not, its just about basic comprehension, which is prerequisite of any sort of meaningful exchange of ideas.

Maybe you dont care about the latter, but if so, it all seems like an awful waste of time.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 03:22:53 AM by sobchak »

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Bullwinkle

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1547 on: November 26, 2020, 03:25:23 AM »

Because youve used that phrase several times just now and really, with your history and mis use of the enlish language we dont need to drag on for another 50pg trying to figure outbwhat youre on about



That said... amazing
Truly amazing!


w u t ?

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1548 on: November 26, 2020, 07:11:58 AM »
no
not what i meant.

look at video giggle tits lady
1:99 where she rotates the person, fails to rotate the lighthouse, and fails to apply correct line of site (where she thinks people only see in 1dimension, not even 2!).

Right, something like this?






Address the very clear video and very clear picture.
Keep dodging you dodgy dogdger MF.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1549 on: November 26, 2020, 10:06:21 PM »
no
not what i meant.

look at video giggle tits lady
1:99 where she rotates the person, fails to rotate the lighthouse, and fails to apply correct line of site (where she thinks people only see in 1dimension, not even 2!).

Right, something like this?






Address the very clear video and very clear picture.
Keep dodging you dodgy dogdger MF.
Show me what I supposedly need to explain with this stuff because there's nothing that shows anything other than failure to explain.
he dodging is by you people.

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rvlvr

  • 2034
Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1550 on: November 27, 2020, 12:48:28 AM »
So draw the goddamn diagram, man!

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1551 on: November 27, 2020, 12:51:14 AM »
Show me what I supposedly need to explain with this stuff because there's nothing that shows anything other than failure to explain.
he dodging is by you people.
No, the doging is entirely be you, such as dodging this photo and issue yet again.

You claimed the RE relies upon Earth curving up to hide the distant objects.
This picture clearly shows Earth curving down, yet still hiding the bottom of the distant object.

Going to admit you were wrong with that claim?

And of course, there is still the blatant lie right from the start that you haven't explained, what magic causes the horizon on the RE to be invisible?
The diagram shows that the horizon does exist and would be visible.

It also shows how you can see ground in front of you (while it is still below your line of sight), even though you can't see the ground directly below you through your current FOV.

The logical you are yet to present any challenge to shows beyond any doubt that you are wrong, yet you still haven't addressed it. So it is quite clearly you who is dodging, not us. Here is the argument yet again. Figured out anything wrong with it yet? Or will you finally be honest and admit you were wrong?
1 - Looking down you see ground/sea, i.e. EARTH.
2 - Looking up you see sky.
3 - That means if you started out looking down and slowly raised your head, your would see some kind of transition between ground/sea and sky.
4 - Assuming there isn't anything getting in your way, this transition would be a line; below this line you would see ground/sea and above this line you would see sky.
5 - This is just like if you look at a basketball. You can see a line, "below" this line you see the ball, "above" this line you see the surroundings.
6 - This line would be the horizon for a round earth. So now the question becomes where is this line?
7 - Simple trig shows that the relationship between this angle, as measured from level, the radius of the ball, and your distance/height from the surface is:
cos(a)=r/(r+h).
8 - Doing the math for a RE when you are 2 m above it shows the horizon would only be 2.7 arc minutes below level, i.e. imperceptibly different from level, and entirely consistent with what is observed.


And then as you seem to think the ground being below you means you can't see it, you need to explain how you magically see it on a FE even though it is below you.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1552 on: November 27, 2020, 01:12:27 AM »
no
not what i meant.

look at video giggle tits lady
1:99 where she rotates the person, fails to rotate the lighthouse, and fails to apply correct line of site (where she thinks people only see in 1dimension, not even 2!).

Right, something like this?






Address the very clear video and very clear picture.
Keep dodging you dodgy dogdger MF.
Show me what I supposedly need to explain with this stuff because there's nothing that shows anything other than failure to explain.
he dodging is by you people.

Sceptimatic, you dodge and weave so well, I'm thinking of signing you up in my football team! What kindergarten concept are you struggling with here? You won't be able to see the stick man's ankles due to curvature.

Believe me, I get lied to every day I turn up for work at the piggery. You being repeatedly told, and politely explained why the earth is a globe, is the biggest truth you will ever be told.

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1553 on: November 27, 2020, 02:20:07 AM »
Exactly the same principle.  Take a beach ball or a basket ball or even a gym ball.  Now stick a lump of blu tak on it somewhere on the surface.  Now hold the ball at arms length in front of you such that the blu tak is hidden beyond the top edge on part of the surface you can't see.  Now rotate the ball directly towards you slowly so your hands represent the axis of rotation.

What happens?  The blu tak seems to rise up from the visible edge of the ball.  What is so hard to understand about that?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 02:22:08 AM by Solarwind »

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1554 on: November 27, 2020, 02:28:09 AM »
So draw the goddamn diagram, man!
What diagram?
You people seem to think you can see over a curve from a horizontally level stand point, looking through a lens...so show me.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1555 on: November 27, 2020, 02:31:22 AM »
Show me what I supposedly need to explain with this stuff because there's nothing that shows anything other than failure to explain.
he dodging is by you people.
No, the doging is entirely be you, such as dodging this photo and issue yet again.

You claimed the RE relies upon Earth curving up to hide the distant objects.

No I didn't. I said that you people claim it rises up. I've said time and time and time again that your global Earth would curve dowan and away from you. There would never be any hump.

The issue with you lot is, you contradict yourselves depending on what it is you're arguing with your globe.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1556 on: November 27, 2020, 02:32:45 AM »


Sceptimatic, you dodge and weave so well, I'm thinking of signing you up in my football team! What kindergarten concept are you struggling with here? You won't be able to see the stick man's ankles due to curvature.

Believe me, I get lied to every day I turn up for work at the piggery. You being repeatedly told, and politely explained why the earth is a globe, is the biggest truth you will ever be told.
A globe, told and sold, is the biggest lie told to us.

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sceptimatic

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Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1557 on: November 27, 2020, 02:39:40 AM »
Exactly the same principle.  Take a beach ball or a basket ball or even a gym ball.  Now stick a lump of blu tak on it somewhere on the surface.  Now hold the ball at arms length in front of you such that the blu tak is hidden beyond the top edge on part of the surface you can't see.  Now rotate the ball directly towards you slowly so your hands represent the axis of rotation.

What happens?  The blu tak seems to rise up from the visible edge of the ball.  What is so hard to understand about that?
When you're in your space vacuum, as you think it is..and looking back at your supposed Earth, as you're told and shown manipulated/composite images of, then come back to me with this argument.

In the meantime deal with actually being stood on your global Earth, as you believe...and show me how you can see down a curve from a horizontally level stand point with your scope.


Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1558 on: November 27, 2020, 03:13:02 AM »
Exactly the same principle.  Take a beach ball or a basket ball or even a gym ball.  Now stick a lump of blu tak on it somewhere on the surface.  Now hold the ball at arms length in front of you such that the blu tak is hidden beyond the top edge on part of the surface you can't see.  Now rotate the ball directly towards you slowly so your hands represent the axis of rotation.

What happens?  The blu tak seems to rise up from the visible edge of the ball.  What is so hard to understand about that?
When you're in your space vacuum, as you think it is..and looking back at your supposed Earth, as you're told and shown manipulated/composite images of, then come back to me with this argument.

In the meantime deal with actually being stood on your global Earth, as you believe...and show me how you can see down a curve from a horizontally level stand point with your scope.

Why are deliberately ignoring the explanations given?  Do you like being seen as dishonest or something? 

Re: What would change your mind?
« Reply #1559 on: November 27, 2020, 03:13:57 AM »
You keep on going on about we think this and we are told that.  What you haven't explained at all yet is why you are so sure you are right and why we are all wrong.