Cypriot hacker extradited to the US

  • 65 Replies
  • 445 Views
*

Shifter

  • 14715
  • Flat Earth Believer
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2020, 02:45:21 PM »
I'm pretty sure I didn't say those scammers should get away with it?

No but it seems governments around the world are apathetic to victims of those crimes.

Also, the governments where the perpetrators live are probably happy with the crimes as it brings in millions to plug their economy lol

The reason this kid is getting extradited and some random Nigerian scammer isn't is this kid filmed himself committing a crime and sent it to one of his victims. He is in trouble because he got caught, that simple.

Nobody is going to go arrest "that Nigerian scammer" if you have no idea who they are or where they are or don't have good solid evidence on them.

Calling the FBI and saying some guy scammed you but you don't know where they are and don't have any recordings of the conversations... well yeah he's not going to get arrested.

You missed the point again

Okay so hundreds of millions of dollars is being siphoned from the American economy through scammers and your governments response is zilch.

Never mind these hundreds if millions may end up funding terrorism or other criminal syndicates that are a menace the world over

Your (and mine) governments doesn't have to find the specific scammer in this case. Put pressure on the scammers government

Their government doesn't do much because the hundreds of millions siphoned from your country, now plugs their impoverished country. So make their governments crack down on their own citizens to get at them that way.

I'm not totally up to speed with this Cyprus guy but if he's already been tried and served, I think 'double jepordy' is a disturbing precedent.

If he was tried, served, and then commited further offences, clearly not having learned his lesson, then throw the book at him

I personally find it disturbing that if you commit a crime in your country, you can be forcibly sent to another country to be tried under their system, no matter how brutal

So much for sovereignty.


Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

*

JJA

  • 1502
  • Math is math!
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2020, 03:06:57 PM »
I'm pretty sure I didn't say those scammers should get away with it?

No but it seems governments around the world are apathetic to victims of those crimes.

Also, the governments where the perpetrators live are probably happy with the crimes as it brings in millions to plug their economy lol

The reason this kid is getting extradited and some random Nigerian scammer isn't is this kid filmed himself committing a crime and sent it to one of his victims. He is in trouble because he got caught, that simple.

Nobody is going to go arrest "that Nigerian scammer" if you have no idea who they are or where they are or don't have good solid evidence on them.

Calling the FBI and saying some guy scammed you but you don't know where they are and don't have any recordings of the conversations... well yeah he's not going to get arrested.

You missed the point again

Okay so hundreds of millions of dollars is being siphoned from the American economy through scammers and your governments response is zilch.

Never mind these hundreds if millions may end up funding terrorism or other criminal syndicates that are a menace the world over

Your (and mine) governments doesn't have to find the specific scammer in this case. Put pressure on the scammers government

Their government doesn't do much because the hundreds of millions siphoned from your country, now plugs their impoverished country. So make their governments crack down on their own citizens to get at them that way.

I'm not totally up to speed with this Cyprus guy but if he's already been tried and served, I think 'double jepordy' is a disturbing precedent.

If he was tried, served, and then commited further offences, clearly not having learned his lesson, then throw the book at him

I personally find it disturbing that if you commit a crime in your country, you can be forcibly sent to another country to be tried under their system, no matter how brutal

So much for sovereignty.

Austraila has plenty of extradition treaties. Clean up your own mess before you are allowed to criticize others, isn't that what you always say?

And you seem to think it's super easy to catch Nigerian scammers, piece of cake, not even a problem.  So obviously the only reason they are not being caught is the governments don't WANT them caught. Must be a conspiracy.  Meh. Needs more work, come back when you have this one more fleshed out.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39825
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
  • Planar Moderator
  • 14436
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2020, 06:09:53 PM »
Shifter stop derailing. Everyone else stop taking his bait.

*

Definitely Not Swedish

  • Belieber
  • 6952
  • Definitely Not Belieber
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2020, 12:52:22 AM »
Quote
I personally find it disturbing that if you commit a crime in your country, you can be forcibly sent to another country to be tried under their system, no matter how brutal
I think this is a good point.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 07:41:05 AM by Definitely Not Swedish »

*

Colonel Gaydafi

  • Spam Moderator
  • Planar Moderator
  • 64600
  • Queen of the gays!
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2020, 06:13:38 AM »
Based on the very little bit I have seen here, I have a couple thoughts. One is that in general, if a 16 year old (or any minor) commits a crime and isn't put on trial for it until after their 18th birthday, they should not be exposed to any harsher penalties than they would have been subject to when they were a minor and actually committed the crime. Second is, this dude did a bad thing and definitely should see consequences for that. And obviously it wasn't a one-and-done thing, because he got busted for a DDoS attack too, and who even knows what else he got away with before he got caught on these things he's been held accountable for.

When you break the law, there are consequences. And when you do it internationally, even more so. But the consequences for the things he did as a 14-16 year old should be the consequences that would normally be issued to a 14-16 year old committing those crimes, not the consequences for an adult that did those crimes.

Thing is, he was already facing consequences for it in Cyprus, they shouldn't have extradited him to an entirely unfamiliar country.

If he's already facing consequences for it in Cyprus then no he shouldn't be extradited because double jeopardy - shouldn't be tried for the same crimes twice. That's why we want the UK courts to try my brother for his, alleged, hacking.
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE
If Gayer doesn't remember you, you might as well do yourself a favor and become an hero.
Quote from: Raa
there is a difference between touching a muff and putting your hand into it isn't there?

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • Planar Moderator
  • 11115
  • V is for Viceroy
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2020, 08:50:19 AM »
I admit I don't know a lot about extradition but it seems to me that the reasoning might be that victims of his crimes are American entities.  At least some of them.  It sort of reminds me of that time an American diplomat ran over someone in the UK and then went back to hide in America.  Putting aside the issue of diplomatic immunity, I'm not sure America would be the place to prosecute him.

Also, my 2 cents on the Asperger's angle.  My brother has this condition.  It in no way impairs his ability to judge right from wrong.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 39825
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2020, 08:55:34 AM »
Who do you think has priority: the country where the accused allegedly committed the crime or the country where the damage was done?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2020, 09:00:04 AM »
Extradition should only occur at the moment of one's capture, to be tried by the law of the country he commited the crime in. Being judged, put in prison and after several years being judged again should not be possible. The only reason for extradition after all that would be if they found another crime the accused hadn't been on trial for before.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • Planar Moderator
  • 11115
  • V is for Viceroy
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2020, 09:10:06 AM »
Who do you think has priority: the country where the accused allegedly committed the crime or the country where the damage was done?

I don't actually know.  Maybe that's the function of an extradition treaty.

I would think the country where the victim is.  Thinking about this more it might not even make sense to try someone in the country the crime was committed. 

Imagine a scenario where after 911 the Afghan government caught Osama Bin Laden and then tried him in their courts.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2020, 02:11:35 PM »
The problem with an international cyber based crime is where was the crime committed in?
It involved things physically in both countries.
While the person may have never left Cyprus, that doesn't mean the crime was committed entirely in Cyprus.
It gets even more complex if any of the servers were in a 3rd country.

As a comparable situation (for the location of the crime and where they should be tried): Imagine 2 people at the US-Canada border (or any other similar land border), the one on the US side pulls out a gun and shoots the one on the Canadian side.
In which country did the murder take place, and in which country should the perpetrator be tried?

I would say if you commit a crime across borders like this, you are committing the crime in that other state. i.e. he was hacking a US server, and thus was remotely committing a crime in the US. Thus it should be fine for the US to try him.

To claim otherwise is to say that you can commit whatever crimes you want remotely and not worry about being punished for it by that country.

If there is an issue with double jeopardy there is also a very simple way to solve it, have any time already served in prison for the same crime be deemed to have already been served.

e.g. if he has already spent 2 years in prison for the crime in Cyprus, and he gets sentenced to 20 years in the US, he serves 18 years in the US.
Otherwise you encourage people to get tried in whatever country has the more relaxed punishment to avoid a more severe punishment.

*

Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
  • 18677
  • Thread Janitor
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2020, 11:32:14 PM »
The problem with an international cyber based crime is where was the crime committed in?

The crime occurred to the victim.
The trial takes place nearest the victim.


Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #42 on: Today at 12:55:24 AM »
The problem with an international cyber based crime is where was the crime committed in?
It involved things physically in both countries.
While the person may have never left Cyprus, that doesn't mean the crime was committed entirely in Cyprus.
It gets even more complex if any of the servers were in a 3rd country.

As a comparable situation (for the location of the crime and where they should be tried): Imagine 2 people at the US-Canada border (or any other similar land border), the one on the US side pulls out a gun and shoots the one on the Canadian side.
In which country did the murder take place, and in which country should the perpetrator be tried?

I would say if you commit a crime across borders like this, you are committing the crime in that other state. i.e. he was hacking a US server, and thus was remotely committing a crime in the US. Thus it should be fine for the US to try him.

To claim otherwise is to say that you can commit whatever crimes you want remotely and not worry about being punished for it by that country.

If there is an issue with double jeopardy there is also a very simple way to solve it, have any time already served in prison for the same crime be deemed to have already been served.

e.g. if he has already spent 2 years in prison for the crime in Cyprus, and he gets sentenced to 20 years in the US, he serves 18 years in the US.
Otherwise you encourage people to get tried in whatever country has the more relaxed punishment to avoid a more severe punishment.

That's no solution at all. If someone is already sentenced for a crime you cannot take them to court again for that crime in another country. Not only are you disregarding the judge's sentence, but one could argue you are completely ignoring the first country's sovereignty. If anything, you would need to appeal to the international court of justice.

*

Shifter

  • 14715
  • Flat Earth Believer
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #43 on: Today at 01:04:48 AM »
Allied countries should trust each other to do the right thing and punish people according to the sovereign countries laws. If you are a citizen of Cyprus and you break the law, Cyprus should deal with it.

If you have already served jail time for an offence, you should not be charged again. Especially to be forcibly removed from your country to face trial again in another country. What if he had victims in a dozen countries? Should he face court in all of them?

Australia has extradition agreements but we refuse to extradite anyone that will likely face the death penalty. As far as I know, it's usually used when someone has committed a crime in 'x' country and fled to Australia that we return them

This guy committed the crime in Cyprus. It seems he already served jail for it.

Can someone confirm if he committed further crimes after release?


Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

RIP rabinoz. Forum legend

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #44 on: Today at 03:00:18 AM »
This guy committed the crime in Cyprus. It seems he already served jail for it.
Εh, not exactly, he was jailed for some time before the trial began but then they managed to pay bail, and he was let out of jail until the trial. Then he was arrested again to be extradited. He was going to face trial in his own country anyways and he already did plenty of time in prison, I don't understand why he should be extradited.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:24:12 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #45 on: Today at 03:01:33 AM »
Also, my 2 cents on the Asperger's angle.  My brother has this condition.  It in no way impairs his ability to judge right from wrong.
That is not what I implied at any point.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #46 on: Today at 03:02:20 AM »
Extradition should only occur at the moment of one's capture, to be tried by the law of the country he commited the crime in. Being judged, put in prison and after several years being judged again should not be possible. The only reason for extradition after all that would be if they found another crime the accused hadn't been on trial for before.
His trial wasn't over yet in Cyprus, but he was pre-jailed.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #47 on: Today at 03:08:05 AM »
The things that outage you and the things that don't sometimes surprises me. He stole a shitload of money. For years. And he got caught. The fact that what he did was illegal isn't some carefully guarded secret, and it's not as if he only stole what he needed to get by.

? Yes? Like, what's the point here exactly? Yeah I imagine if someone has the ability to either steal 10k or 90k and they have already decided to steal they're gonna steal 90k probably. It seems more weird to me that it doesn't outrage you that a minor was extradited and is facing 20 years in prison for non violent cyber crimes that were influenced by his family's and personal social and financial situation. Like, already being socially isolated (both due to mental illness, having to drop out of school and being half Filipino, Cyprus (and Greece) is pretty racist against Filipinos), AND in a nasty financial situation, is it that crazy that using his skills in computers to make easy money by cyber crime was appealing? No. Was he an adult when the crimes were committed? No. Did his actions gravely harm anyone? Well, he cost a bunch of money to some websites but that can be repaired, there were no violent crimes. With all said and done, does it make sense that he should be extradited to a completely foreign country, and in fact being the ONLY Cypriot citizen extradited together with some Hezbollah money launderer, and facing being locked up for a couple of decades? I really don't think so.

Quote
You didn't give any indication of what the scale was. Or the insane amount of money he stole.

He tried to extort 90k out of them. My understanding is he didn't manage to steal all that, at least the articles imply he managed to defraud around 45k iirc, all said and done. And idk how much of that went to him or how much was shared with his partners. The rest wasn't stolen, it was dirty money he and his partners got paid by some other businesses.

As for the Aspergers thing, my understanding from reading what some psychiatrists who examined him said, is that it is bad enough that it poses a legitimate concern surrounding him being extradited to an entirely unfamiliar country. At least that's what said psychiatrists reported at the court.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:26:43 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #48 on: Today at 03:23:36 AM »
Also I should note that he has already spent more than 18 months in jail even though he hasn't been tried yet, but that is the sentence he was facing in Cyprus anyways.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #49 on: Today at 03:27:50 AM »
None, because he was already arrested before he reached that age.
Your own source shows that he was arrested in February 2018.
He was 21 in July 2020, that means 7 years prior in 2017 he was 7 years younger, i.e. 18.
That means he was arrested after he turned 18.
So the question is then if he turned 18 before or after May 9th?

facing 20 years in prison for non violent cyber crimes
Why should "non-violent" crimes be treated less severely?
Just because violence wasn't used doesn't mean it can't cause serious damage.
If anything, some violent crimes should be less. For example, what would you rather have happen to you, someone punch you in the face and give you a bruise, or have $100k stolen from you? I'd prefer the punch to the face.

Did his actions gravely harm anyone? Well, he cost a bunch of money to some websites but that can be repaired
Is he repairing it? No.
So no, it can't just magically be repaired.
And from the sounds of the allegations, it sounds like someone didn't pay the blackmail demands and instead got very large costs as a result of whatever it was that they were being blackmailed with. So I doubt that can get "repaired".

So just what do you think constitutes "grave harm"?

That's no solution at all. If someone is already sentenced for a crime you cannot take them to court again for that crime in another country. Not only are you disregarding the judge's sentence, but one could argue you are completely ignoring the first country's sovereignty. If anything, you would need to appeal to the international court of justice.
You would be ignoring their sovereignty if you just charged in and kidnapped the person, or if you removed them from prison, tried them and then just released them rather than returning them to prison. If you are using an extradition treaty you are not.
The only thing being "disregarded" is the judge's sentence, but that can be based upon the laws of the country which can vary.
The argument also goes both ways, with just trying to have Cyprus deal with it is disregarding the sovereignty and judicial system of the US.
Why should the US not be permitted to prosecute and convict someone who committed a crime against them, i.e. committed crimes against servers in the US?

There is also the issue of if it is actually the same crime, with all the same information.
Was he serving time for every count of hacking et al that the US is extraditing him for?
Or only some of it, or something else?
A prosecution for one count of hacking based upon one specific hack doesn't make you immune from any other prosecutions for hacking.

Are they actually the same crime in the 2 countries, or are they similar but different crimes?
It is possible to commit multiple crimes at once. For example, if you drive while drunk and kill someone, that is 2 crimes from the one act, and a prosecution for drunk driving wont make you immune from a prosecution for killing the person.

Because if it wasn't for the same crime, then it isn't disregarding the judge at all, nor is it double jeopardy. (And that is before we get to the US Supreme court deciding that each country has their own laws and thus even if the 2 laws were identical, it still wouldn't be double jeopardy.)

And that isn't actually what is happening.
From what others have said no judge has given him a sentence. Instead he was moved to a more suitable jurisdiction.

If you are a citizen of Cyprus and you break the law, Cyprus should deal with it.
Jurisdiction is typically based upon where the crime took place, not what region you are a citizen of.

What if he had victims in a dozen countries? Should he face court in all of them?
If he attacked servers in dozens of countries then yes, he should.
If he blackmailed people in dozens of countries then yes, he should.
Especially as each server he attacks and each person he blackmails (and each time he does so) is a separate crime, which the countries can separately prosecute for.

If he didn't want to face court for those crimes, then perhaps he shouldn't have committed them in the first place.

As far as I know, it's usually used when someone has committed a crime in 'x' country and fled to Australia that we return them
This guy committed the crime in Cyprus. It seems he already served jail for it.
Ignoring the edge cases occurring on a border, that works fine for crimes where you have to physically be there to commit them. But in the days of the internet, crimes can be committed remotely, especially cyber crimes.
He breached servers in the US. That means the crimes were committed in the US.

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #50 on: Today at 03:44:20 AM »
Your own source shows that he was arrested in February 2018.

That source was inaccurate, more respectable sources mention he was arrested in 2017. I can post them here but they are in Greek.
Quote
Why should "non-violent" crimes be treated less severely?

Because they are less severe?

Quote
Just because violence wasn't used doesn't mean it can't cause serious damage.

Financial damage, which can be repaired in a straightforward way.

Quote
If anything, some violent crimes should be less. For example, what would you rather have happen to you, someone punch you in the face and give you a bruise, or have $100k stolen from you? I'd prefer the punch to the face.

Which would you rather have, being defrauded 100k or being robbed of 100k? Would you prefer to lose 100k or being raped? Yes, there are violent offenses less severe than non violent ones. But the most severe offenses are more or less always violent ones, and the only ones that should qualify for throwing you in jail for decades, barring extreme cases of non violent offenses.

Quote
Is he repairing it? No.
So no, it can't just magically be repaired.

He will probably be forced by a court to repair it anyways, that's the point. There's all sorts of ways this might happen. Some courts actually immediately pay the money to the entity harmed, and then the perpetrator has some sort of debt to the state that they can repay in a few different ways, if they can't repay it immediately. Idk what the legislation on that is in the US but I doubt the victims are going away from this with nothing. I am sure Cyprus could reach an agreement with the US to pay back the money instead of throwing their citizen under the bus and extraditing him. Also I am sure someone who is as skilled with computers and hacking from such a young age as him could repay the debt in many different ways, if that was what the court ruled, instead of ending up in jail for 20 more years in addition to the 1.5 he did in Cyprus.

Quote
And from the sounds of the allegations, it sounds like someone didn't pay the blackmail demands and instead got very large costs as a result of whatever it was that they were being blackmailed with. So I doubt that can get "repaired".

It can, as long as the court rules it so.

Quote
So just what do you think constitutes "grave harm"?

Being killed, severely injured, traumatized, your livelihood completely destroyed.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #51 on: Today at 03:49:36 AM »
The things that outage you and the things that don't sometimes surprises me.
I have no idea why you would be surprised boydster...

Pez thinks it is the fault of the person being robbed for having the money in the first place...
« Last Edit: Today at 04:01:57 AM by totallackey »

Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #52 on: Today at 04:24:15 AM »
Because they are less severe?
How are violent crimes less "severe". What are you using to judge how "severe" something is?

Financial damage, which can be repaired in a straightforward way.
Not by those who have been damaged by it.
Sure, they can make more money, but they can't just magically replace was has been taken.

Which would you rather have, being defrauded 100k or being robbed of 100k?
What's the difference, either way I lose $100k.

Would you prefer to lose 100k or being raped?
Raped in what way?
I would say there are plenty of ways in which someone can be raped which are less damaging than losing $100k.

But the most severe offenses are more or less always violent ones, and the only ones that should qualify for throwing you in jail for decades, barring extreme cases of non violent offenses.
You mean like an extreme case of stealing a lot of money?
The most severe offenses are typically severe. We aren't talking about stealing a pack of gum of $5. We are talking about hacking, stealing private information, defrauding people, blackmailing people and overall taking a lot of money from people.
That is quite severe.

He will probably be forced by a court to repair it anyways, that's the point.
And when he can't afford to pay it? What happens then?

And the non-financial damages?

I am sure Cyprus could reach an agreement with the US to pay back the money instead of throwing their citizen under the bus and extraditing him.
Why should they?
Why should Cyrpus and the innocent people of Cyprus pay for the crimes for this individual?
Why shouldn't the criminal be thrown "under the bus".
That way he is the one who suffers.

And if you are so happy with allowing courts to decide he can get away with it with some other way to pay it back, why aren't you happy allowing the US courts to decide that?

Quote
And from the sounds of the allegations, it sounds like someone didn't pay the blackmail demands and instead got very large costs as a result of whatever it was that they were being blackmailed with. So I doubt that can get "repaired".
It can, as long as the court rules it so.
With that attitude, so can every crime.
Had a loved one murdered, don't worry, they can just pay some money.
Hijacked a few planes and flew them into buildings, don't worry, they can just pay some money.

Quote
So just what do you think constitutes "grave harm"?
Being killed, severely injured, traumatized, your livelihood completely destroyed.
So like having lots of money taken from you?
And again, why focus on physical injuries rather than financial injuries?

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #53 on: Today at 04:44:29 AM »
Because they are less severe?
How are violent crimes less "severe". What are you using to judge how "severe" something is?

I thought that was generally consensus, and actually represented in the punishments many different justice systems around the world have decided are appropriate for each crime, but apparently not?

Quote
Not by those who have been damaged by it.
Sure, they can make more money, but they can't just magically replace was has been taken.

Did you even read my post? I directly answered that, I'm not gonna keep doing this. I told you they can be paid restitution.

Quote
What's the difference, either way I lose $100k.

Idk man, most people would care if they lost 100k by a scam or if someone broke into their home and threatened their family with a gun to do that. But maybe you have a different opinion. 

Quote
Raped in what way?
I would say there are plenty of ways in which someone can be raped which are less damaging than losing $100k.

Lmao.

Quote
You mean like an extreme case of stealing a lot of money?

An extreme case of stealing/scamming lots of money from hundreds of people and causing them serious damage. Not defrauding money from 2-3 entities that can be repaid relatively easily.

Quote
And when he can't afford to pay it? What happens then?

Already answered, you'd know if you paid attention to what you're answering to, moving on.

Quote
And the non-financial damages?

What non-financial damages?

Quote
Why should they?
Why should Cyrpus and the innocent people of Cyprus pay for the crimes for this individual?

You know states do that all the time, right? Many courts pay money to entities harmed before the perpetrators can pay, and then the perpetrators are forced to pay back the court anyways, so the courts don't lose.

Quote
Why shouldn't the criminal be thrown "under the bus".

Because criminals are citizens too and their countries protect them?

Quote
And if you are so happy with allowing courts to decide he can get away with it with some other way to pay it back, why aren't you happy allowing the US courts to decide that?

Because being tried in a foreign court carries all sorts of different issues with it, and it seems like the US courts are determined to punish him extremely severely.

Quote
With that attitude, so can every crime.
Had a loved one murdered, don't worry, they can just pay some money.
Hijacked a few planes and flew them into buildings, don't worry, they can just pay some money.

That's why I specified the crimes were non violent and the damage was strictly financial, you genius. Jesus christ.

Quote
So like having lots of money taken from you?
No. Unless it caused a huge amount of damage (for example ending up homeless, being forced to shut down business and fire lots of people, etc), which it didn't, in any of those cases. Even then, it is much easier to restore that kind of damage than a serious violent offense.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:46:35 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Definitely Not Swedish

  • Belieber
  • 6952
  • Definitely Not Belieber
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #54 on: Today at 06:06:32 AM »
At this point I think jackblack has to be trolling.

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #55 on: Today at 06:13:15 AM »
I'm not even sure what the argument is even supposed to be here, that the victims shouldn't be compensated in any way, but the perpetrator should be punished more severely because that will make it better for some reason? Because unless that is his position I don't understand why he is so annoyed by the concept of restitution and compensation. Like, is it better if they just lock him up so that he has no way of making money, and thus no way to pay up any time soon?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
  • Planar Moderator
  • 14436
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #56 on: Today at 06:26:55 AM »
He didn't just steal $45k, or $90k. He illegally took in over $300k, possibly over $500k, in money, just in the crimes he was caught committing. If Cyprus leaves people in jail for 18 months without having a trial, then take the issue up with Cyprus for having a legal system that would allow such a thing.

The "he cost some websites some money" argument is the same as saying "well stealing from Walmart is fine because they just a giant corporation." And at the scale he committed, it's more like if someone stole all of the electronics from all their regional Walmarts and then called up the Walton family and said "By the way, here are the next several Walmarts I intend to rob unless you give me $90,000." No one needs to get hurt, or even threatened with violence, but it's a crime and a very serious one and someone who committed that crime would rightfully get in trouble for it. Even if they came here from Cyprus, they should get in trouble for that.

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #57 on: Today at 06:48:19 AM »
He didn't just steal $45k, or $90k. He illegally took in over $300k, possibly over $500k, in money, just in the crimes he was caught committing.
Idk where you saw that but that is wrong. The sites affected claim the damages caused to them were 500k in total, not that he took in 500k, if that is what you are referring to. Him and his co-conspirators also earned money by deleting bad reviews, but that money was NOT defrauded from ROR, but was voluntarily (but illegally) given to them by various businesses who allegedly paid them to do so. It seems extremely unlikely that he actually got that much money for himself. From what I have read he definitely didn't get all of his extortion money and I don't even know for sure if he got any at all, but sources aren't very clear on that.


Quote
If Cyprus leaves people in jail for 18 months without having a trial, then take the issue up with Cyprus for having a legal system that would allow such a thing.
Most systems allow for something like that. Trials may take a very long time to be completed and many people can't pay bail for one or the other reason. I don't know for sure but I imagine they asked some absurd amount for bail. My understanding however is that if he was sentenced to 1.5 years, having already served that he wouldn't have to serve any more, but it is extremely probable he would be obliged to pay restitution.

Quote
Even if they came here from Cyprus, they should get in trouble for that.
He did get in trouble for that already before they decided to extradite him. That's the point.
« Last Edit: Today at 06:50:16 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 14349
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #58 on: Today at 07:17:18 AM »
Yep, according to the articles I found, his extortion attempts yielded a sum total of 58k dollars in Bitcoin from all the victims combined. At least that is what he is charged for. However the victims claim he caused a total of 530k dollars in damage. He also took money from a management company called Submit Express that was paying him to remove reports on ROR at the request of the company's clients. The clients paid Submit Express 3-5k but he was supposed to be getting 1k per report. I am not sure how much of that money he actually ended up getting because according to articles a bank from Cyprus blocked the payments, but the total money they found on him was 69k, although I imagine he might have more in Bitcoin, while part of the money they found may have been legitimate. The articles are also not clear on whether or not there were other unknown hackers involved or if he acted alone. He was arrested on May 2017, and it seems like now he will be tried in two different states, Arizona and Georgia.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
  • Planar Moderator
  • 14436
Re: Cypriot hacker extradited to the US
« Reply #59 on: Today at 07:18:05 AM »
He didn't just steal $45k, or $90k. He illegally took in over $300k, possibly over $500k, in money, just in the crimes he was caught committing.
Idk where you saw that but that is wrong.
It's in the source you provided. I posted the quote and the image already.

Quote
The sites affected claim the damages caused to them were 500k in total, not that he took in 500k, if that is what you are referring to. Him and his co-conspirators also earned money by deleting bad reviews, but that money was NOT defrauded from ROR, but was voluntarily (but illegally) given to them by various businesses who allegedly paid them to do so. It seems extremely unlikely that he actually got that much money for himself. From what I have read he definitely didn't get all of his extortion money and I don't even know for sure if he got any at all, but sources aren't very clear on that.
Again, refer back to the deleted records - the quantity of deleted records and the amount he charged for each deleted record. It was $3k-$5k per record, and 100 deleted records. That means he, as the lone hacker doing this, did in fact get between $300k and $500k in money to illegally break into a website and delete information from it.

Quote
Quote
Even if they came here from Cyprus, they should get in trouble for that.
He did get in trouble for that already before they decided to extradite him. That's the point.

I guess without actually knowing what he actually did time for, you've set this up in such a way that it's impossible to really have a discussion. Before you said he got arrested for a DDoS attack. And he spent 18 months in prison without being tried for anything. Then he got out. Then he got arrested again to be extradited. Now you are saying "He did get in trouble." If he hasn't been tried, then he still needs to stand trial. If he was a minor when this all went down, and the case is something that prosecution wouldn't be able to successfully argue that a minor should be tried as an adult, then he should be tried as a minor (which I think would mean they wouldn't even consider extraditing, who would extradite a minor?). Honestly though as big of a crime as what he committed, and over as long as he was doing it, and the fact that he was either very VERY nearly 18 or he was actually 18 near the end of his crime streak, I suspect there's a very real chance he could have been tried as an adult anyway.