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Why do you support Joe Biden?

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Why do you support Joe Biden?

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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1110 on: February 01, 2022, 10:51:42 PM »
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 01, 2022, 07:52:28 PM
Whatever man, I know when political spin is being used. Enjoy the fluffy marketing

Also things like breast cancer deaths (and other zero death i itiatives like toddlers drowning in backyard pools) is possible.

There are a plethora of reasons people die on the roads which is inherently full of risk and speed cameras only address one reason (and judging by the fines they rake in, aren't very good at doing that)

Wait wait wait....
He never said "speed cameras only" he said " speed camers with mandatory safety features in cars" such as lane drift avoidance, emergency braking, breathalizer sensors, sleep detection, and probably more that I don't know.

Soo yeah. 





Quote from: boydster on February 01, 2022, 02:40:00 PM
Quote from: Lorddave on February 01, 2022, 02:01:48 PM
Quote from: boydster on February 01, 2022, 01:11:12 PM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 01, 2022, 01:06:16 PM
Quote from: boydster on February 01, 2022, 12:50:04 PM
The idea of policing people using cameras seems more than a little Orwellian to me. Why not just mount those cameras to things that can move? What if the moving-police-thing-with-cameras also carries around handcuffs and is connected to an AI so it can make decisions about whether it thinks you've committed a crime and then arrest you? Is this really the way we want to use technology to build a better future?

Orwellian sounds a bit over the top. It's a camera that takes photos of cars that are speeding. In 20 years of driving I've never been bothered by them. As long as the tolerance is fair (not get everyone going 1km/h over) then what's the problem. No one is forcing you to speed

Where I live, the tolerance is 10% (although they don't want to admit it). So you have to be doing 110km/h in a 100km/h zone or 66km/h in a 60 zone. Car speedometers usually always read faster. Sometimes as much as 10%. To be done with a speed camera, you have to know you're doing the wrong thing. And for fixed location speed cameras? Just slow down when you approach them if you like being a speed demon on the roads

Like I said, if the cameras sign posted are put in black spot locations that remind people to slow down in those areas, that's a good thing. Speed later where it's not as big of a deal ::)
You're putting a lot of trust in the powers that be not using those cameras for any other reason at all, while also giving control over to computers to decide if you've commited a crime or not. I don't think the comparison is over the top at all. Once we start handing responsibility over to computers to police us, the people selling those things look for ways to expand their offerings. That's the way of the business world - land & expand.

Why do we need computers to be police officers?

I'd trust a computer over a person.
Computers do what they're programmed to do without bias.
People.... Don't.
A cop could pull me over for speeding regardless if I was speeding or not.  If I contest, thats another offence, possibly including being pulled from the car and arrested at gunpoint.

Meanwhile, a speed camera takes a picture and sends you a fine in the mail, which you can contest in traffic court.  And the machine's logs will tell the story. Its also much harder for most people to tamper with said logs to catch someone unjustly and if the software is written in a way to be unfair... Well, again, its evidence someone can follow up on as such things will show up in logs or decompiles.

The big issue you need to worry about are stoplight cams, as JJA said and cams in spots like at the bottom of hills where you naturally do over the speed limit since you haven't had time to slow down.


And if you are honestly afraid of such misuse, then you need to elect a new police chief for your area because cameras or not, they will misuse anything they have for whatever their goal is.
You're missing the point, which is that when you remove the people from that function, you are removing the personal responsibility and accountability. And that's to say nothing of the fact that literally no one should want to live in a nanny state where your every move is subject to government/police oversight.

Remove the people, and you remove the accountability. You think that Boston Dynamics robot dog is just for fun things like finding bombs and peeing beer into glasses? It's loaded up with sensors and uses some pretty impressive pieces of tech to analyze the world around it and make decisions about how to interact with the world based on that info. And it's absolutely being entertained for use as an assistant soldier. There are bipedal versions being tested as well, and if you don't think those will be designed to carry weapons then you aren't thinking like a defense contractor. Where do all those military toys go when it's time to refresh the equipment again?

Introducing robots into police work is a mistake we are going to look back on and wonder how we were blind enough not to see ahead of time. Especially in the US, where we will inevitably give them weapons and the ability to use lethal force. We're flirting with this future already.

How often are cops held personally accountable for lying about your speed?  Can't think of a case myself.

And yes, robots.  Honestly my biggest fear is someone hacking robots and using them for evil.  Beyond that, I have 0 fear that a robot would burst into my home while I'm asleep and shoot me dead because I thought they were burglers and I had a gun.  Or put 30 bullets into me as I stood in an open yard and reached for my phone.  Or have my son get shot, point blank, by a cop in a car, because my son had a toy gun in his hand.

Why?
Because they are programmed.  They do what they're told.  I'm not even sure what you fear a speed camera will do that you'd need accountability for?  Decide that you were speeding when you weren't?  Send everyone fines regardless?  Send no one fines?  Become machincist and only fine red cars?
Because in all those cases its either broken or some human told it to do it wrong.  And THAT hunan will be held accountable.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1111 on: February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM »
Honestly, looking at the state of politics in America right now, you guys would probably be better off being governed by a computer

No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego. Just evidence based reason and logic.  Policy and law apply to everyone regardless of who they are or how wealthy they are

Sure as shit better than picking from 2 crusty old white men


Failing being governed by an AI, find a Vulcan 8)

The way Australia is heading looking at our bunch of muppets, I wish we'd trade them in for an AI too.
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Calen

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1112 on: February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM »
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1113 on: February 02, 2022, 05:01:14 AM »
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.

Well you clearly wont get Rudy Giuliani or Cucker Tarlson adding their 2 cents worth in the code. Certain things as much as people think their opinion counts, actually dont count. Because immutable facts - you don't get an opinion on

And example of how the computer could operate is look at all the evidence regarding climate change and our involvement. Which is an immutable fact. It could then based on the available data come up with a strategy and policy to help us reduce our emissions going forward

So all those oil/energy companies that usually like to bribe donate money to try and sway policy makers - too bad. The computer cares not for their money.

Now of course you have to make sure their aren't any bugs in the software. Imagine if its solution was to eradicate mankind to solve the climate crisis lol. I mean, that would probably do it, but I think some people might find that a bit extreme
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Quote from: sokarul
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What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1114 on: February 02, 2022, 07:10:02 AM »
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 05:01:14 AM
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.

Well you clearly wont get Rudy Giuliani or Cucker Tarlson adding their 2 cents worth in the code. Certain things as much as people think their opinion counts, actually dont count. Because immutable facts - you don't get an opinion on

And example of how the computer could operate is look at all the evidence regarding climate change and our involvement. Which is an immutable fact. It could then based on the available data come up with a strategy and policy to help us reduce our emissions going forward

So all those oil/energy companies that usually like to bribe donate money to try and sway policy makers - too bad. The computer cares not for their money.

Now of course you have to make sure their aren't any bugs in the software. Imagine if its solution was to eradicate mankind to solve the climate crisis lol. I mean, that would probably do it, but I think some people might find that a bit extreme

It has a strategy:
Keep everyone home.  That worked super well during 2020 lockdowns.  Pollution and CO2 emissions from cars dropped to almost nothing. 


Also, a computer might if it needed money to enact changes it would take it from the oil companies then do the changes anyway because it will do the most effective method it can vis code.  And if you need money and someone wants to give you money, you take the money.  Said computer isn't going to feel obligated to work in the interests of the money giver.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1115 on: February 02, 2022, 07:37:22 AM »
It seems Biden has just named Sen. Jeanne Shaheen as interagency coordinator on the National Security Council. I can't find any articles yet, but https://twitter.com/SenatorShaheen/status/1488657698061230080?s=20&t=2YXfmeheCDG6-1FJEXclnA  She is working on "Havana Syndrome".

I thought they'd just recently decided that Havana Syndrome doesn't exist? I don't understand why they're looking for a cure or treatment for something that doesn't exist!

Also, Senator Shaheen seems really excited about US involvement with the Russia and Ukraine thing.
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1116 on: February 02, 2022, 09:37:57 AM »
I can't find a consensus on Havana syndrome but my impression is that it's a scam. It sounds like the state departments version of chronic fatigue syndrome.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1117 on: February 02, 2022, 09:44:36 AM »
Quote from: Crouton on February 02, 2022, 09:37:57 AM
I can't find a consensus on Havana syndrome but my impression is that it's a scam. It sounds like the state departments version of chronic fatigue syndrome.

That's a lot of people all in on the scam then. Including the people who took brain scans of the affected people. Something happened to them. Even if it was some covert false flag attack America wanted to to then use against Cuba or Russia lol

I would not put it past the American government to do something like that to their own people just to give them a reason to go off and do something

But for plebs like us, it's still a mystery
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Quote from: sokarul
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boydster

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1118 on: February 02, 2022, 02:14:22 PM »
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.
This, exactly, should be a concern for everyone quick to rely on AI to hand them easy answers. Now add to that the use-case-drift that will almost certainly accompany adding more computers to watch, analyze, and report on our movement and activity.

One could use the "If I'm not doing anything wrong then I have nothing to hide" argument (Masalang, I'm looking at you, with the "I'm not speeding so what do I have to worry about" comment...) to rationalize negating the 4th amendment entirely in the US. If I've got nothing to hide, why shouldn't the government be able to inspect every aspect of my life in great detail? It's incremental erosion of freedom under the guise of promoting safety. I think both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin have quotes attributed to them about trading liberty for security, and neither thought it was a good path to start wandering down very far.
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Stash

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1119 on: February 02, 2022, 02:25:34 PM »
A pretty comprehensive examination of the issue with an interesting take regarding the cause:

If a Weapon Didn’t Cause Havana Syndrome, What Did?

However, many experts believe that Havana syndrome likely belongs to a category of illnesses known as “functional neurological disorders,” or FNDs. Broadly speaking, these are illnesses caused by neural pathways being inhibited or created in such a way as to cause a person pain, loss of motor control, sensory problems, language issues, fatigue, and other symptoms. As Mark Hallett, NIH distinguished investigator and president of the Functional Neurological Disorder Society, recently explained in presentation on the society’s website, it is “a neurological disorder … caused by a brain network dysfunction.” You can get much deeper in the weeds, but that’s the nut of it: Certain things the brain does go haywire. Given that our brain has 100 trillion neural connections, this should not be surprising.

On rare occasions, the symptoms of functional disorders become contagious, passed from person to person via “social contagion” or “social learning.” In this case they constitute a “mass psychogenic illness”—or, more colloquially, mass hysterias—that can move across the world quickly, usually through social networks. A recent wave of tics spreading (ironically) through TikTok is one example. Havana syndrome is mostly likely another.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1120 on: February 02, 2022, 02:30:19 PM »
Social contagion makes perfect sense!
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1121 on: February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM »
Quote from: boydster on February 02, 2022, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.
This, exactly, should be a concern for everyone quick to rely on AI to hand them easy answers. Now add to that the use-case-drift that will almost certainly accompany adding more computers to watch, analyze, and report on our movement and activity.

One could use the "If I'm not doing anything wrong then I have nothing to hide" argument (Masalang, I'm looking at you, with the "I'm not speeding so what do I have to worry about" comment...) to rationalize negating the 4th amendment entirely in the US. If I've got nothing to hide, why shouldn't the government be able to inspect every aspect of my life in great detail? It's incremental erosion of freedom under the guise of promoting safety. I think both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin have quotes attributed to them about trading liberty for security, and neither thought it was a good path to start wandering down very far.

But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1122 on: February 03, 2022, 01:49:43 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM
But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.
The camera, unlike the person, keeps a permanent record.   A record which can be cross referenced with other computerised records about you.  A record that can be used to track your movements.

So, yes, it is quite different from human eyes.
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1123 on: February 03, 2022, 03:26:23 AM »
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 03, 2022, 01:49:43 AM
Quote from: Lorddave on February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM
But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.
The camera, unlike the person, keeps a permanent record.   
If you tell it to, yes.  And you think cop dash cams don't?  Or their paperwork?

Quote
A record which can be cross referenced with other computerised records about you.  A record that can be used to track your movements.
So can a police officer.  Last I checked, memory wasn't an instant loss most of the time and officers do write shit down.  So technically if you got a speeding ticket on Highway 4, well... Congrats, its in a record and will be computerized regardless if a human or a computer wrote it.

Also, officer in an unmarked car can track you.  Or they track your phone.


I never understood the terror people have that non-personal technology allowing cops to track their movement via analyzing unconnected systems while also carrying around a literal tracking device in their pocket.

Like do you honestly think the police are going to see your license in a picture, decide you need to be arrested for murdering some random hobo, and use the camera system (which only takes pictures if you speed), credit card systems, atm cameras, and cctv cameras throughout the state, combining with an AI to read faces and license plates, to determine where you went on a specific day so they can...

Go to your address, listed in the dmv system, and arrest/shoot you for resisting arrest?
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1124 on: February 03, 2022, 03:54:47 AM »
Lets not forget, most people dont seem bothered by having a smart phone track them everywhere they go. Many people dont bother turning their location settings off so the phone uploads your location data to Google/social media everywhere you go.

Go to a shopping mall or any many public car parks and your plate will be captured on a CCTV system too. Walk or drive by my house and get captured on CCTV lol!

But a speeding camera that takes a picture of you only if you break the law because you are speeding?? THAT'S TOO FAR MAN!

The hysteria around it is way over the top. And peoples priorities are topsy turvey. Google and Facebook sells your data and information to shady companies who then use your own information against you. That's literally their business model. Whether it's to fleece you in scams, buy shitty products you didn't know you wanted or just keep you in a bubble of misinformation to take advantage of your trust. And no ones outraged and calling for bans on that behaviour

I'd hate to break it to you guys but you're all boring. Public servants and bean counters working for government really couldn't give a rats about any personalised data in systems. If you really are a good citizen who doesn't commit crimes and you mistrust the authorities you should be happy that data on your activities exist. Who knows. Maybe someone sort of matching your description killed your next door neighbour, but it couldn't be you! At around the time of the murder, you were photographed speeding on the interstate far from home 8) Did it occur to anyone that data collected could also be used to exonerate people?

In all seriousness, speeding cameras and CCTV's rank pretty low in terms of 'invading your privacy' compared to the phones in your own pockets - which people are quite happy to use and dont give a 2nd thought to

« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 03:56:19 AM by Masalang the Torpedo »
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Quote from: sokarul
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boydster

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1125 on: February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM »
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1126 on: February 03, 2022, 05:57:57 AM »
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.

You watch too many movies man. 'Enemy of the State' was cool though

Not sure what historic precedent you are talking about that could relate to something as innocuous as a speed camera that only triggers when you drive past it too fast which, is entirely avoidable if you simply do the right thing. I know Edward Snowden uncovered a lot of shit that would have made Xi Jinping envious, but even after that, you guys seem comfortable and gave your government a pass. And you still post your entire lives on social media anyway. How many of you have a Google or Amazon home device which unashamedly listens to everything ever said in your homes? I dont think authorities need any extra help

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Quote from: sokarul
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What animal relates to your wife?

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Themightykabool

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1127 on: February 03, 2022, 05:59:26 AM »
the internet of things have spies in your fridge, tv, alectra, door knobs, picture frames .

Big corp in your web broswer, credit card.

Big brother in your emails, stingrays and pressuring phone co for backdoor access...




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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1128 on: February 03, 2022, 06:09:31 AM »
Quote from: Themightykabool on February 03, 2022, 05:59:26 AM
the internet of things have spies in your fridge, tv, alectra, door knobs, picture frames .

Big corp in your web broswer, credit card.

Big brother in your emails, stingrays and pressuring phone co for backdoor access...

My fridge is behind 9 proxies!
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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boydster

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1129 on: February 03, 2022, 06:45:44 AM »
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 03, 2022, 05:57:57 AM
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.

You watch too many movies man. 'Enemy of the State' was cool though

Not sure what historic precedent you are talking about that could relate to something as innocuous as a speed camera that only triggers when you drive past it too fast which, is entirely avoidable if you simply do the right thing.

Those cameras aren't in a static, immutable state. They still receive updates, and they can have functionality added to them, in addition to maintaining records on everything they capture. And "If I'm not doing anything wrong, then I have nothing to hide" is a terrible philosophy when it comes to how to have a free society.
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JimmyTheCrab

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1130 on: February 03, 2022, 07:09:31 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on February 03, 2022, 03:26:23 AM
Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on February 03, 2022, 01:49:43 AM
Quote from: Lorddave on February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM
But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.
The camera, unlike the person, keeps a permanent record.   
If you tell it to, yes.  And you think cop dash cams don't?  Or their paperwork?
Oh, a dashcam.  That's not "human eyes" then is it?

Quote
So can a police officer.  Last I checked, memory wasn't an instant loss most of the time and officers do write shit down.  So technically if you got a speeding ticket on Highway 4, well... Congrats, its in a record and will be computerized regardless if a human or a computer wrote it.
That's only if you get a ticket.  Roadside cameras can track you every time you go past them, whether you committed and offence or not.  They allow real-time tracking and mass surveillance that would be impossible via paper ticket and human memory (!).

Quote
Also, officer in an unmarked car can track you.  Or they track your phone.
Really?!? I had no idea.   ::)

Quote
I never understood the terror people have that non-personal technology allowing cops to track their movement via analyzing unconnected systems while also carrying around a literal tracking device in their pocket.
Who says these system are unconnected?  Any system can be joined to another.

Quote
Like do you honestly think the police are going to see your license in a picture, decide you need to be arrested for murdering some random hobo, and use the camera system (which only takes pictures if you speed), credit card systems, atm cameras, and cctv cameras throughout the state, combining with an AI to read faces and license plates, to determine where you went on a specific day so they can...

Go to your address, listed in the dmv system, and arrest/shoot you for resisting arrest?
What?  ???
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Lorddave

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1131 on: February 03, 2022, 07:10:49 AM »
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.

Again, even without the cameras they can abuse their power and do.
Lets say a cop decides to pull you over and says you were speeding but you weren't.  He says you were.  He writes down your speed as 100mph in a 55 zone.  Is there a log or record to disprove him?  No.  He's not a computer.  Its his word against yours.  And he will win.

Cameras, not so much.  Even IF someone made sure to fake your data...

1. It takes skills to do so.
2. If the security is setup properly, changes are tracable.
3. Again, computers won't lie because they hate you.  It adds that extra layer of protection against being profiled or attacked with fake evidence because its easy for a cop to lie when filling out paperwork.  Less easy to manipulate a camera to produce fake evidence.
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Crouton

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1132 on: February 03, 2022, 09:30:57 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM
Quote from: boydster on February 02, 2022, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.
This, exactly, should be a concern for everyone quick to rely on AI to hand them easy answers. Now add to that the use-case-drift that will almost certainly accompany adding more computers to watch, analyze, and report on our movement and activity.

One could use the "If I'm not doing anything wrong then I have nothing to hide" argument (Masalang, I'm looking at you, with the "I'm not speeding so what do I have to worry about" comment...) to rationalize negating the 4th amendment entirely in the US. If I've got nothing to hide, why shouldn't the government be able to inspect every aspect of my life in great detail? It's incremental erosion of freedom under the guise of promoting safety. I think both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin have quotes attributed to them about trading liberty for security, and neither thought it was a good path to start wandering down very far.

But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.

There's another thing about speed cams that bother me, the goal is safety.  If I've exceeded the speed limit then it doesn't necessarily mean I'm being unsafe, in some situations it's the safer choice. 

I'm not sure how it is in other countries but here traffic laws are basically a thinly veiled carte blanche for police officers punish you when they believe you're driving unsafely.  Our traffic system is in reality based on whether a reasonable person with the authority to intervene(a police officer) thinks you're driving okay or not.  I think we're uncomfortable with the idea that this is really just officer's discretion.  So we come up with traffic laws.  But we have so many traffic laws that I doubt anyone follows them all on a regular basis. 

If we created automated systems to catch anyone breaking traffic laws then I doubt it would do much for safety.  It would definitely bring in a lot of tax revenue.
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boydster

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1133 on: February 03, 2022, 09:47:24 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on February 03, 2022, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.

Again, even without the cameras they can abuse their power and do.
Lets say a cop decides to pull you over and says you were speeding but you weren't.  He says you were.  He writes down your speed as 100mph in a 55 zone.  Is there a log or record to disprove him?  No.  He's not a computer.  Its his word against yours.  And he will win.

Cameras, not so much.  Even IF someone made sure to fake your data...

1. It takes skills to do so.
2. If the security is setup properly, changes are tracable.
3. Again, computers won't lie because they hate you.  It adds that extra layer of protection against being profiled or attacked with fake evidence because its easy for a cop to lie when filling out paperwork.  Less easy to manipulate a camera to produce fake evidence.
If there's no log to disprove him, he wins? Are you just typing things in a knee-jerk response to disagree with me here? Because that's ridiculous. If there's no log proving him RIGHT, you go to court and have the ticket negated. They need to prove that you broke the law. And that doesn't just mean they say you were speeding. They need to have documentation beyond just "I say so." That's what "innocent until proven guilty" means. But you're already willing to concede that people are considered guilty until they can somehow prove themselves innocent, and then hand things over to the police to surveil us even more than they ever have. Why?
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Themightykabool

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1134 on: February 03, 2022, 09:58:22 AM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 03, 2022, 06:09:31 AM
Quote from: Themightykabool on February 03, 2022, 05:59:26 AM
the internet of things have spies in your fridge, tv, alectra, door knobs, picture frames .

Big corp in your web broswer, credit card.

Big brother in your emails, stingrays and pressuring phone co for backdoor access...

My fridge is behind 9 proxies!


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how to hack Space's frige and find out her diet.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1135 on: February 03, 2022, 10:00:27 AM »
Quote from: Crouton on February 03, 2022, 09:30:57 AM
Quote from: Lorddave on February 02, 2022, 10:23:28 PM
Quote from: boydster on February 02, 2022, 02:14:22 PM
Quote from: Calen on February 02, 2022, 03:56:41 AM
Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 02, 2022, 12:24:17 AM
No lies. No personalities. No biases. No cronyism. No nepotism. No favoirism. No ego.

Not possible. Every person responsible for coding such a computer is subject to all of those, and so they would inevitably influence the code.  A computer is only as good as its code and data, and any bias in those would bias the computer.
This, exactly, should be a concern for everyone quick to rely on AI to hand them easy answers. Now add to that the use-case-drift that will almost certainly accompany adding more computers to watch, analyze, and report on our movement and activity.

One could use the "If I'm not doing anything wrong then I have nothing to hide" argument (Masalang, I'm looking at you, with the "I'm not speeding so what do I have to worry about" comment...) to rationalize negating the 4th amendment entirely in the US. If I've got nothing to hide, why shouldn't the government be able to inspect every aspect of my life in great detail? It's incremental erosion of freedom under the guise of promoting safety. I think both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin have quotes attributed to them about trading liberty for security, and neither thought it was a good path to start wandering down very far.

But we're not suggesting we add a new monitoring process, just replace a police officer on the side if the road with a metal box and camera on the side of the road.
Unless you feel a camera violates the 4th amendment but human eyes do not.

There's another thing about speed cams that bother me, the goal is safety.  If I've exceeded the speed limit then it doesn't necessarily mean I'm being unsafe, in some situations it's the safer choice. 

I'm not sure how it is in other countries but here traffic laws are basically a thinly veiled carte blanche for police officers punish you when they believe you're driving unsafely.  Our traffic system is in reality based on whether a reasonable person with the authority to intervene(a police officer) thinks you're driving okay or not.  I think we're uncomfortable with the idea that this is really just officer's discretion.  So we come up with traffic laws.  But we have so many traffic laws that I doubt anyone follows them all on a regular basis. 

If we created automated systems to catch anyone breaking traffic laws then I doubt it would do much for safety.  It would definitely bring in a lot of tax revenue.

Well, that tax revenue should go into the transport and infrastructure keeping the roads in good condition :) That money has to come from somewhere - might as well get some from people who do the wrong thing

Where I live, all fixed speed cameras a signposted several hundred metres before the trigger point. Then again just before the trigger point. Every red light camera has the same

Mobile speed cameras must also be marked although there is no warning. Drive long enough and you know they place themselves and just ensure you are doing the limit at all the places they could be.

Also. They dont like to admit it but there is a 10% tolerance. So if you do 110km/h in an 100km/h zone, you'll get a happy snap. If you do 109km/h you'll be fine. Those cameras are always checked, tested and calibrated to ensure they read the actual speed it says you are doing. In my previous car I know the speed was reading 10% faster than than the actual speed. By law cars from the factory are calibrated to read just a little faster. Never to show lower than the actual speed. So in order to get snapped by a camera in a 100km/h zone, because my car is reading 10% faster, I'm actually doing 90km/h when my speedo says 100km/h. To reach a real speed of 110km/h, I'd have to be doing 121km/h on my speedo in a 100km/h zone before I get done. There's no way I would not be making a conscious effort to be speeding there.

I pass through several speed cameras every day and find the mobile ones a few times a week. I've never had a problem. And the Australian government isn't going to make this technology into something more nefarious and encroach on our freedumbs than what people already voluntary do on social media or joining free WiFi networks or talking to their Google/Amazon devices at home or just their mobile phone location data

Lets just get back to reality and not get in hysterics. Honestly feel sorry for you guys thinking the government is this boogeyman waiting to do a 'gotcha!' to everyone out there and that you need to think of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc amendments every day

That Bill of Rights is your real prison. The rest of the world lives just fine without being so preoccupied with an ancient document.
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Wolvaccine

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1136 on: February 03, 2022, 10:20:44 AM »
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 09:47:24 AM
Quote from: Lorddave on February 03, 2022, 07:10:49 AM
Quote from: boydster on February 03, 2022, 05:51:17 AM
There's a lot of trust that those in authority won't abuse their power on display in this thread. Historically, that's kind of the opposite of how things tend to play out.

Again, even without the cameras they can abuse their power and do.
Lets say a cop decides to pull you over and says you were speeding but you weren't.  He says you were.  He writes down your speed as 100mph in a 55 zone.  Is there a log or record to disprove him?  No.  He's not a computer.  Its his word against yours.  And he will win.

Cameras, not so much.  Even IF someone made sure to fake your data...

1. It takes skills to do so.
2. If the security is setup properly, changes are tracable.
3. Again, computers won't lie because they hate you.  It adds that extra layer of protection against being profiled or attacked with fake evidence because its easy for a cop to lie when filling out paperwork.  Less easy to manipulate a camera to produce fake evidence.
If there's no log to disprove him, he wins? Are you just typing things in a knee-jerk response to disagree with me here? Because that's ridiculous. If there's no log proving him RIGHT, you go to court and have the ticket negated. They need to prove that you broke the law. And that doesn't just mean they say you were speeding. They need to have documentation beyond just "I say so." That's what "innocent until proven guilty" means. But you're already willing to concede that people are considered guilty until they can somehow prove themselves innocent, and then hand things over to the police to surveil us even more than they ever have. Why?

Innocent until proven guilty unless you are a poor guy who cant afford court costs or time off work. Then you just have to suck it up

Also if you are a coloured person or have any prior record, innocence doesn't count for shit.

The whole 'innocent until proven guilty' has and will always be a crock of shit and it always discriminates against the less wealthy. It's an illusion that makes us sound civilised when in reality innocent people are forced to defend themselves against accusations all the time. If it really was innocent until proven guilty - defendants would not need to go to court unless a judge has seen the case (the accuser rocks up and presents their case) and is satisfied there are questions to answer.

So the police goes to the judge 'here is the radar and photograph of the car in question'. - judge goes 'yep, there's a case to defend here'
Or the police goes to the judge 'well it kinda looked like he was speeding to me' - judge goes 'WTF GTFO!' and you dont need to come in. - THAT is innocent until proven guilty. That is putting the onus on the accuser to make their case


I dont know if this is still relevant and how many states this is allowed but....
https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2010/06/visual_speed_estimates_by_poli.html
Quote
An Ohio Supreme Court ruling Wednesday made a police officer's visual estimate of speed enough to make a speeding ticket stick. Though that had been the case in most of the state, the appeals court covering Cuyahoga County had required more than an officer's guess: radar readings or comparing a vehicle's speed to the speedometer reading in a police cruiser.

The court ruled that an officer's estimate can hold up all by itself if an officer is trained by the Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy or a similar academy and has experience gauging speeds.

The number of states that use that standard could not be determined Wednesday. Pennsylvania and Nebraska require more than just a visual speed estimate, though officers in those states have leeway to say a vehicle was traveling at an unsafe speed.

So yeah, no solid evidence needed. Just the policemans 'word' that it looked like you were speeding.
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Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1137 on: February 03, 2022, 10:45:51 AM »
Quote from: Themightykabool on February 03, 2022, 09:58:22 AM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 03, 2022, 06:09:31 AM
Quote from: Themightykabool on February 03, 2022, 05:59:26 AM
the internet of things have spies in your fridge, tv, alectra, door knobs, picture frames .

Big corp in your web broswer, credit card.

Big brother in your emails, stingrays and pressuring phone co for backdoor access...

My fridge is behind 9 proxies!


ahahaha
how to hack Space's frige and find out her diet.



IT'S ALL DUMPLINGS!

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1138 on: February 03, 2022, 11:01:21 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on February 03, 2022, 07:10:49 AM

Lets say a cop decides to pull you over and says you were speeding but you weren't.  He says you were.  He writes down your speed as 100mph in a 55 zone.

One has a right to question their accuser in court.   
A camera can't be questioned.
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Stash

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Re: Why do you support Joe Biden?
« Reply #1139 on: February 03, 2022, 11:06:34 AM »
I think it's a situation where there's a complacency that we're doomed already, so who cares if there's just one more thing like more cameras to catch speeders. The, "Oh well, fuck it, I've willingly given the contents of all of my cyber correspondence, preferences, and contacts to gmail & browsing, all of my images, likes, dislikes to FB, all of my dark opinions to Twitter, all of my vox calls to the NSA, all of my mobility to OnStar, FasTrak, IOS/Android navigation apps, and 10 billion CCTV's, so what's another monitoring device? I don't care, we're already screwed."

This is a problem.

It's like the Albert Brooks speech in Broadcast news:

"What do you think the devil is gonna look like if he's around? God come on no one's going to be taken in by a guy with a long red pointy tail...come on, what's he gonna sound like? He will be attractive, he'll be nice and helpful, he'll get a job where he influences a great god-fearing nation, he'll never do an evil thing, he'll never deliberately hurt a living thing, he'll just bit by little bit, lower our standards where they're important."

It's the incremental erosion that has got us. We've gone from an utter, to the very core, fear of an Orwellian future to, 'ah...whatevs, here's all my shit', in like 25 years. Basically overnight.

Maybe it's time we start pulling back on the reigns and say enough is enough. (And here I am typing my thoughts into a forum...)
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