"Alone in universe"

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"Alone in universe"
« on: July 26, 2020, 03:54:24 PM »
Hello. So, i was browsing quora and i saw answer. It talked abiut fermi paradox.

Quote
https://www.quora.com/q/the-physics-space/The-Fermi-paradox-is-the-apparent-contradiction-between-the-extremely-high-probability-of-the-existence-of-alien-civiliz?ch=10&share=cb6cdc08&srid=jZL6o

So, answer is decent. Since i am SW fan, i need aliens to be true ;D . So i came for comments. One struck me

Quote
Fewer than 1 percent of all stars in our galaxy exist in the galaxy’s habitable zone. Stars on either side of this zone are either too old or too young. Within this galactic habitable zone, 60% of the stars are binary, which is bad news for the formation of life and especially intelligent life. Of the single stars in this zone, most of them are too large and will exhaust their fuel and die in a few hundred million years, or they are too small and won’t generate enough heat for a stable habitable zone. Of the remaining stars, they would need just the right combination of planets in particular places in their orbits to allow life and especially intelligent life. I recommend reading "Alone in universe"by John Gribbin for more details about this.


So i went for wiki. It has few words describing it. But has sereval reviews talking about it. So, what are your thoughts?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alone_in_the_Universe_(book)


As far as I see, book goes through parts describing how we are rare and special.


How few stars are in galactic habitable zone.

How most of them are binary

How they need Jupiter-like planet to keep potentialy habitable planet  safe form outer space asteroids

How it needs large Moon to stabilise it.


How planet needs tectonics.


Evolutionary lucks


Stable orbit


Star not to big and not to small


Star with good lifespawn


Star with decent radiation output. Don't want too much

Star with okay surface events. Don't want solar storms too often


And many more

So, general thoughts?

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wise

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2020, 01:59:40 AM »
I am alone in universe and beyond.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2020, 04:12:14 AM »
So, general thoughts?

Funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday.

Even with how rare life should be, the Milky Way is so huge, has so many stars and so many planets and has had so many billions of years that it still seems strange that life isn't swarming all over it. 

All it would take is ONE space-faring species to colonize the galaxy.

It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.

What stopped them? Kind of terrifying to think about.

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wise

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2020, 04:44:04 AM »
It is a scientific fact that according to the scenario of the supposedly big bang of the universe, there must be civilizations thousands of years ahead of us. Considering the rapid development in science, these civilizations must have discovered the journey in time and space well in advance. I find it necessary to remind that time stops at the speed of light. In fact, the lengths described as light years are just a few seconds. In this regard, It is impossible that a civilization, which is a few thousand years ahead of the others, cannot colonize all others.

From this point, we conclude that there was no civilization other than us in this universe, if it were at least there was no civilization ahead of us.

According to my belief, there is no place called the universe. The fact that everything acts in a coordinated way proves that all this is dream - in the form of a nightmare. Otherwise, such so many fools could not came together.

This is my dream and all others are retard. Because only wise can be smart. There is a strong point here.
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2020, 06:54:30 AM »

Well look at us!

It’s clearly not a scientific position to take a singular example and extrapolate a universe, but there are surely certain baseline criteria for existence. For instance, everyone of us alive today is the ancestor of survivors, and I’m not being trite, this is vitally important for a number of reasons.

Psychologically it gives us a superiority complex, we’re survivors right, winners, and to the winners the spoils as everyone is aware.

But at the expense of true species introspection, because all those peace-loving navel gazers got rolled by our two-timing psychotic violent forerunners, and always will. Something like 16Million men from the Pacific through to the Caspian sea are said to contain DNA from Genghis Khan ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707605874), in 1,000 yrs time how many will have the Dali Llama’s?

The upshot of  this type of selection, is a species that will brag of it’s rise, consider that this was what it was born for but not realise that it has inherited a dying graveyard, with an over extended population and depleted natural resources until it is too late.

Too bleak a prognosis? I mean we are all moral people, able to see and condemn the failures of those before us, join Greenpeace and Amnesty, well look at the current crises, where were those morals in the people who stripped the shelves clean on pandemic day one?

We are governed by biological imperatives, It would be no different anywhere else, evolution would produce beings with survivability the same as fire ants, Cane toads and viruses, but if we are let loose from the constraints that normally hold our population under control, we will breed until either we consume all, and starve or some other organism arises and uses us as the foodstuff or vector of reproduction.

That is why I think there is no spacefaring races, they did as we are doing, and died before they got there.
Life is meaningless and everything dies.

Suicide is dangerous- other philosophies are available-#Life is great.

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wise

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2020, 07:26:29 AM »
They tried a million times. There were 1 million Albert Eisntein and 1 million Tesla. But while they were all making their most famous discoveries, the world war broke out. They started the full space journey, then they forgot all the technology as NASA did. Similar things happened 1 million times. Christ no!
1+2+3+...+∞= 1

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markjo

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2020, 08:27:02 AM »
It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.
UFO researchers will probably tell you that they are out there and have been visiting us for a very long time.  Perhaps Gene Roddenberry was right and the prime directive prevents them from making formal contact with us until we become warp capable.  Or, maybe the conspiracy theorists are right and the aliens have been working in secret with one or more of the larger world governments.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Crouton

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2020, 08:36:42 AM »
The situation makes me favor the "ancestor simulation" hypothesis.



https://u.osu.edu/vanzandt/2018/04/18/ancestor-simulations/

It explains why we're alone.  It also explains why the universe sometimes doesn't make a whole lot of sense the farther away it goes.
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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2020, 09:42:43 AM »
So, general thoughts?

Funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday.

Even with how rare life should be, the Milky Way is so huge, has so many stars and so many planets and has had so many billions of years that it still seems strange that life isn't swarming all over it. 

All it would take is ONE space-faring species to colonize the galaxy.

It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.

What stopped them? Kind of terrifying to think about.

Book literaly talks why your opening point is wrong

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2020, 09:46:32 AM »
So, general thoughts?

Funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday.

Even with how rare life should be, the Milky Way is so huge, has so many stars and so many planets and has had so many billions of years that it still seems strange that life isn't swarming all over it. 

All it would take is ONE space-faring species to colonize the galaxy.

It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.

What stopped them? Kind of terrifying to think about.

Book literaly talks why your opening point is wrong

What point is that and why is it wrong?

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2020, 09:48:25 AM »
It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.
UFO researchers will probably tell you that they are out there and have been visiting us for a very long time.  Perhaps Gene Roddenberry was right and the prime directive prevents them from making formal contact with us until we become warp capable.  Or, maybe the conspiracy theorists are right and the aliens have been working in secret with one or more of the larger world governments.

I mean, aliens having a galaxy wide "United Planets" with non-interference being the #1 rule is certainly a valid theory too.

Maybe they are here, and won't reveal themselves until we are more mature, or more advanced, or more... ripe.

Being alone isn't the worst possibility... :)

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markjo

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2020, 10:24:21 AM »
Gallagher (of Sledge-o-matic fame) once mused that aliens are visiting us, but don't make contact because they think that we're still too stupid to handle it.  I told him that I thought that he was mistaken.  My theory is that stupidity really is a crime and Earth is an interstellar penal colony where the UFOs are dropping off their prisoners and we're so stupid that we can't tell them apart from normal humans.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Lorddave

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 10:58:16 AM »
Couple of possibilities:
They don't want to reveal themselves due to our culture (we can't even unite as one species after all).
There is no way for faster than light travel, so no one goes far.
The Milky Way has lots of life but its spread out and only a little more advanced than us so not getting far.
There is no intelligent life, just us.  Everything else stays as animals.  Like how sharks never developed a culture or tool making even tho they have been around for millions of years.

Also:
If we ever find a way for faster than light communication, we may discover signals.  Or the signals we get are so garbled and mixed in, or so alien that we can't ID them from regular background noise.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2020, 11:16:38 AM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.

If humanity put it's mind to it, we could start working on generational ark-ships TODAY and children alive now might see the first of them take off.  There isn't anything stopping us from doing that, just money and time. It's all solvable engineering problems, and give us a few thousand years and we could have the first colonies making their own ships.  Give us a million years and we will be on our way to covering a good part of the galaxy. Ten million and we could reach the other side. A hundred million and we could visit every star.

The problem isn't technology. The problem is us. :)

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2020, 12:03:44 PM »
I think we're, for all intents and purposes, alone in the universe.

Is there a high probability that intelligent life exists out-there in the universe somewhere? You betcha.

Is there an equally high probability that intelligent life is similar to us and has all the same issues? I'd imagine, yeah.

The problem isn't the tech or anything. The problem is life. Life is just problematic. We're fickle creatures who get caught up in all the wrong things way too often. We struggle to help one another and care for each other. Things like that.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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markjo

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 12:11:30 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 01:11:06 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.

Remember that we were not trying to make it go as fast as possible, we were trying to get it to planet hope and stick around at each one.

If we wanted to we could have gotten it much faster.  Remember that speed doesn't really matter on the timescales we are talking about. What's 40 years when you have millions, and billions of years to work with. If intelligent life evolved a billion years before we showed up that is plenty of time to make it here. That's the paradox. All it would take is ONE successful, expansionist alien race. Maybe that's us. But it seems unlikely that we would be the first. The universe has been around a LONG time.

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Denspressure

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 02:35:12 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
And the human species has not launched anything like V1 and V2 since so in all likely hood the feat won't be repeated in our lifetime unless a new manner of travel is invented.
):

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Denspressure

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2020, 02:39:32 PM »
I don't want to be alone.


...


):
):

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Denspressure

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2020, 02:53:09 PM »
Sometimes I really wish I had somebody.

Sorry, i'm, pathetic.
):

Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2020, 03:11:00 PM »
So, general thoughts?

Funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday.

Even with how rare life should be, the Milky Way is so huge, has so many stars and so many planets and has had so many billions of years that it still seems strange that life isn't swarming all over it. 

All it would take is ONE space-faring species to colonize the galaxy.

It's one of lifes big mysteries... where are the aliens? They should be out there.

What stopped them? Kind of terrifying to think about.

Book literaly talks why your opening point is wrong

What point is that and why is it wrong?

Your point is that there are lots of stars and lots of planets for life to develop.


So, counter arguement is pretty simple.


For planet to be habitable, it needs to be:


In Galactic habitable zone

Not close to supernova.

Orbiting not binary star (in most cases)

Star having decent lifespawn

Star bieng generaly stable

Water on surface

Tectonics

Jupiter-like planet to peotect it form aseroids

To have large Moon (rare)

Now, you got planet which can have life, but you need all kinds of acids and materials, like phosphorus.Also, all kinds of amino acids to kickstart abiogenesis.


This is basicly :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis


Quote
The Rare Earth hypothesis argues that the evolution of biological complexity requires a host of fortuitous circumstances, such as a galactic habitable zone, a central star and planetary system having the requisite character, the circumstellar habitable zone, a right-sized terrestrial planet, the advantage of a gas giant guardian like Jupiter and a large natural satellite, conditions needed to ensure the planet has a magnetosphere and plate tectonics, the chemistry of the lithosphere, atmosphere, and oceans, the role of "evolutionary pumps" such as massive glaciation and rare bolide impacts, and whatever led to the appearance of the eukaryote cell, sexual reproduction and the Cambrian explosion of animal, plant, and fungi phyla. The evolution of human intelligence may have required yet further events, which are extremely unlikely to have happened were it not for the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event 66 million years ago removing dinosaurs as the dominant terrestrial vertebrates.

In order for a small rocky planet to support complex life, Ward and Brownlee argue, the values of several variables must fall within narrow ranges. The universe is so vast that it could contain many Earth-like planets. But if such planets exist, they are likely to be separated from each other by many thousands of light years. Such distances may preclude communication among any intelligent species evolving on such planets, which would solve the Fermi paradox: "If extraterrestrial aliens are common, why aren't they obvious?"[1]

Intresting part here:

Quote
A further theory indicates that such a large moon may also contribute to maintaining a planet's magnetic shield by continually acting upon a metallic planetary core as dynamo, thus protecting the surface of the planet from charged particles and cosmic rays, and helping to ensure the atmosphere is not stripped over time by solar winds.


Also, there is rare Earth formula in same wiki page.


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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 03:17:09 PM »
In order for a small rocky planet to support complex life, Ward and Brownlee argue, the values of several variables must fall within narrow ranges. The universe is so vast that it could contain many Earth-like planets. But if such planets exist, they are likely to be separated from each other by many thousands of light years. Such distances may preclude communication among any intelligent species evolving on such planets, which would solve the Fermi paradox: "If extraterrestrial aliens are common, why aren't they obvious?"[1]
[/quote]

To me, this is the interesting part.  Thousands of light years is small potatoes. The Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years across.

A thousand light years is next door.

A million years is more than enough time for an intelligent species to spread across the milky way, let alone make it a mere thousand light years.

So that's the paradox.  Where are they?  All it takes is ONE, and they could colonize the galaxy. 

100 billion stars, 13 billion years... that's a LOT of places and time for intelligent life to form, even if it's super-duper rare.

Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 03:18:18 PM »
What about Moon part?

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Stash

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 03:57:36 PM »
What about Moon part?

Well you have the whole exoplanet thing and there are a bunch. Seemingly, maybe, habitable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_potentially_habitable_exoplanets

But then it begs the question whether ETs would need our requirements for habitability. You know, carbon based and all that. And then the big factor is the time thing. Would there be organisms that are behind us, ahead of us or somewhere in between. I've always been of the simple notion that the vast scales we're talking about, there has to be something "living" somewhere.

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markjo

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 03:59:39 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
And the human species has not launched anything like V1 and V2 since so in all likely hood the feat won't be repeated in our lifetime unless a new manner of travel is invented.
Please stop trolling.  It's pathetic.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 04:22:10 PM »
What about Moon part?

What about it?

We have no idea how rare moons are, or how needed they are for life.

We do know that life DID happen at least once. It seems unlikely we are the only time. All the numbers we can come up with are just guesswork, but I find it extremely hard to believe that the number of intelligent species the Milky Way produced in 10+ billion years is exactly ONE.

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Denspressure

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 04:22:27 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
And the human species has not launched anything like V1 and V2 since so in all likely hood the feat won't be repeated in our lifetime unless a new manner of travel is invented.
Please stop trolling.  It's pathetic.
It is true, sorry. Not trolling.
):

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JJA

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 04:35:21 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
And the human species has not launched anything like V1 and V2 since so in all likely hood the feat won't be repeated in our lifetime unless a new manner of travel is invented.
Please stop trolling.  It's pathetic.
It is true, sorry. Not trolling.

Define 'anything like V1 and V2' because I'm aware of a whole bunch of things like them that have been launched.

Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2020, 04:41:45 PM »
It's a living universe. In a living universe you can never truly be alone.

Who says all life needs to be composed of physical matter as we know it, to fit the definition of life?

Other planets in our own solar system may be teeming with life. Just, not life as we know it, that our science can currently detect.

But, we are not single dimensional beings. We have the ability to visit other planets using our mental body or etheric body.

Ever wonder why most alien abduction experiences happen to people while they are asleep in their beds?

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Denspressure

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Re: "Alone in universe"
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2020, 04:43:42 PM »
The speed of light isn't an issue, I mean right now we already launched a probe that's outside our solar system.
Yes, and it only took about 40 years for it to get that far.
And the human species has not launched anything like V1 and V2 since so in all likely hood the feat won't be repeated in our lifetime unless a new manner of travel is invented.
Please stop trolling.  It's pathetic.
It is true, sorry. Not trolling.

Define 'anything like V1 and V2' because I'm aware of a whole bunch of things like them that have been launched.
Nothing will even get close to the distance of V1 and V2 and still be operational.
):