Where exactly is it?

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2020, 03:44:47 PM »
Thank you Jack. It's always refreshing to see the other side fights as fairly against nonsense as we try to.

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sandokhan

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2020, 09:48:39 PM »
Brother James is on sabbatical, I am sure his upcoming work will be most illuminating.

It would be great to have you, dogplatter and theengineer back here on a regular basis.

Then, this forum can become again what it once was, some eight years ago.
I agree.

Do you also agree with this?

Okay.  So things we've learned today:

It is not the responsibility of the moderation team to weigh in on debates.

Mods don't decide who won or lost a debate.

Mods don't evaluate the veracity of an argument.

The Believer's Only and Information Repository subforums still exist for those of us who would like to present information or ideas without debate.


https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=86547.msg2270225#msg2270225

Or this:

And of course I do not like jackblack's posting style. He purposely fisks every sentence to annoy people. It isn't helpful for normal conversation. I've told you many times to ignore him. Most people do!

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=86547.msg2270154#msg2270154

The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.

The stats are way down since jackblack and rabinoz have been allowed to roam free on this forum, breaking all of the rules.

If no one has a vested interest in what is going on, then why are we here?

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2020, 11:59:35 PM »

Just saying that you cannot feel it rotating is not proof.  That is a personal opinion that you have. I cannot feel it turning but I can actually see it turning.

Prove you can actually see it turning.

Here you go.

https://nerdist.com/article/earth-rotation-sky-video/

The earth in this time lapse is clearly shown to rotate. The good thing about this anyone can repeat this experiment with the right equipment. One would have thought that any flat earth scientist worth their salt would have a go. Science is not about proving what you believe it’s about following where the knowledge goes.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 12:07:20 AM by Timeisup »
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2020, 12:00:50 AM »
Can you prove to me that it is the sky rotating from east to west rather than the Earth rotating from west to east?
That was the point they were making.
Can you show it is Earth rotating rather than the sky?

You don't directly observe Earth turning, as observations are relative. Instead you need something in addition to that simple visual observation.



There are a number of Astro photographers who have been turning their hand to locking on a feature in the cosmos, Polaris, Milky Way etc, Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars. What’s not to like? The only people who will react negatively are those with some kind of vested interest.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 12:17:00 AM by Timeisup »
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2020, 12:03:04 AM »
Brother James is on sabbatical, I am sure his upcoming work will be most illuminating.

It would be great to have you, dogplatter and theengineer back here on a regular basis.

Then, this forum can become again what it once was, some eight years ago.
I agree.

What’s Your view on the time lapse John? Is it not a clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiment showing that the earth rotates?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 12:21:26 AM »
Thank you Jack. It's always refreshing to see the other side fights as fairly against nonsense as we try to.

Where is the fight John. As ‘Whats his name’ was fond os saying :the truth is out there, you just have to look. For example look at this:-

https://petapixel.com/2020/06/01/this-timelapse-captures-24-hours-of-earths-rotation-by-stabilizing-the-sky/

Nice video clearly showing rotation of our earth. There are lots of them being done by Astro photographers from all over the planet.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2020, 03:03:55 AM »
The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.
No, they are stating that they will not ban people just because they disagree with you.
i.e. they will not abuse their powers to try silence opposition.
They are also saying that you not liking how someone debates is not grounds to have them banned either.

Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars.
Which has the exact issue that is already pointed out, but now you have worded it to avoid that issue.
Yes, such footage shows that Earth moves relative to the stars/sky.
But it does not tell you which is moving.

So no, such videos are not clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiments showing that the earth rotates.
They do not clearly show the rotation of Earth.

It could be Earth rotating with the sky stationary.
It could be the sky rotating with Earth stationary.
Or it could be both rotating, but at different rates (including where one rotates one way while the other rotates the other way, or where they both rotate in the same direction).

Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2020, 03:35:13 AM »
There are many other experiments that we can perform which demonstrate it is the Earth rotating. On the other hand, if you are going to conclude that the sky is rotating around a stationary Earth then you have also got to explain exactly what is rotating and why.


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JJA

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2020, 03:57:09 AM »
If you narrow your focus to one thing and ignore all else then yes it's hard to prove it.

Luckily in the real world we have an entire planet's worth of observations and evidence that shows the Earth is round, rotates and orbits the Sun.


Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2020, 04:05:42 AM »
Exactly. If you are going to assert that the sky or the 'heavens' are rotating about a stationary Earth then that implies that the Earth is surrounded by something materialistic.  O guess FE believers would maintain that that 'something' is the 'dome' which they believe surrounds the Earth.  A dome that has never been seen, detected ever proved to exist.

The Earth is surrounded but only by empty space.

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2020, 02:41:37 PM »
The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.
No, they are stating that they will not ban people just because they disagree with you.
i.e. they will not abuse their powers to try silence opposition.
They are also saying that you not liking how someone debates is not grounds to have them banned either.

Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars.
Which has the exact issue that is already pointed out, but now you have worded it to avoid that issue.
Yes, such footage shows that Earth moves relative to the stars/sky.
But it does not tell you which is moving.

So no, such videos are not clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiments showing that the earth rotates.
They do not clearly show the rotation of Earth.

It could be Earth rotating with the sky stationary.
It could be the sky rotating with Earth stationary.
Or it could be both rotating, but at different rates (including where one rotates one way while the other rotates the other way, or where they both rotate in the same direction).

Sorry but you are wrong. Camera fixed on a tripod with long exposure rotating with the earth one gets star trails. Put the camera on a mount that rotates fixing on a point in the sky and the result is an animation that shows the earth rotating. I’m not sure what more proof you would require?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2020, 02:51:15 PM »
Sorry but you are wrong. Camera fixed on a tripod with long exposure rotating with the earth one gets star trails. Put the camera on a mount that rotates fixing on a point in the sky and the result is an animation that shows the earth rotating. I’m not sure what more proof you would require?
No, like so often, you are wrong, as clearly explained already.
All that shows is that there is relative motion between Earth and the stars.
It doesn't show that it is Earth that is rotating.

That was already clearly addressed.
So why ignore it?

The proof that is required is proof that it is EARTH that is rotating, not the sky, or not just the sky.

If you need a simple example to help you understand, consider a Ferris wheel.
Place a camera along the axis of the Ferris wheel some significant distance from it, looking directly at the centre.
Now you can have the camera fixed to Earth and have the footage show the Ferris wheel turning.
Alternatively, you can have the camera rotate at the same rate as the Ferris wheel. This now shows the Ferris wheel stationary while the entire Earth moves around it.
And for completeness sake, have the camera rotate at some rate which is different from the Ferris wheel. Now both Earth and the Ferris wheel appear to move.

So what is actually happening? Is the Ferris wheel turning with Earth stationary? Is Earth turning with the Ferris wheel stationary? Or are both turning?
That is what your simple visual evidence cannot distinguish between.

According to those who claim Earth is stationary, the footage is equivalent to option 2.
They would say you are turning the camera at the same rate as the sky/Ferris wheel is rotating.
This produces the visual appearance of Earth rotating with the sky/Ferris wheel stationary.


Now do you understand?
Or do you think that Ferris wheels remain stationary while all of Earth (in fact the entire universe) rotates around it just because you can set up a camera to show that?

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Stash

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2020, 03:24:41 PM »
The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.
No, they are stating that they will not ban people just because they disagree with you.
i.e. they will not abuse their powers to try silence opposition.
They are also saying that you not liking how someone debates is not grounds to have them banned either.

Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars.
Which has the exact issue that is already pointed out, but now you have worded it to avoid that issue.
Yes, such footage shows that Earth moves relative to the stars/sky.
But it does not tell you which is moving.

So no, such videos are not clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiments showing that the earth rotates.
They do not clearly show the rotation of Earth.

It could be Earth rotating with the sky stationary.
It could be the sky rotating with Earth stationary.
Or it could be both rotating, but at different rates (including where one rotates one way while the other rotates the other way, or where they both rotate in the same direction).

Sorry but you are wrong. Camera fixed on a tripod with long exposure rotating with the earth one gets star trails. Put the camera on a mount that rotates fixing on a point in the sky and the result is an animation that shows the earth rotating. I’m not sure what more proof you would require?

I love these fixed-on-a-star vids with the earth rotating. Super cool. But they don't prove anything. For instance, is the skier rotating and the earth is fixed or is the ground rotating and the skier is fixed? There's no way to objectively tell:


Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2020, 03:45:18 PM »
Let's say just for the sake of argument that the Earth is fixed and the sky is rotating.  How then is the sky rotating and what is rotating?

We see all the stars as points of light and so we have no direct perception of distance. As such we can imagine the stars to be fixed to the inside surface of an imaginary sphere of undefined radius.  The movement of the stars seems to be such that there are two fixed points on the sky (the celestial poles) around which the stars rotate.  These points are 180 degrees apart and are aligned with the Earth geographic poles.  By that I mean if you stand at the north or south poles, the points on the sky which the stars appear to rotate around will be directly above you on the zenith. The geographic poles are also 180 degrees apart in terms of latitude.  So we get the impression of the celestial 'sphere' but we know (well I do at least) that this is just an illusion.

So the sky cannot be rotating because there is nothing physically there to rotate.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 03:57:20 PM by Solarwind »

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boydster

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2020, 03:54:19 PM »
How then is the sky rotating
That's hardly relevant when discussing observations

Quote
and what is rotating?
Everything in the sky seen visibly rotating around the Earth.

Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2020, 03:58:49 PM »
Quote
That's hardly relevant when discussing observations

Is that so - why not exactly?  I think it is directly relevant.  You are observing the stars rotating around two clear celestial poles.  How then are they rotating if the Earth is stationary?

I have just been checking the polar alignment of my telescope mount.  I have camera attached to it which is pointing directly to the north celestial pole.  When I rotate the mount in RA the stars in the camera image visibly rotate because the mount is rotating.  The Earth does the same thing except much more slowly. I am simply speeding up the effect of the Earths rotation.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 04:03:13 PM by Solarwind »

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JJA

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2020, 04:01:09 PM »
It's a preponderance of evidence.

Spinning sky or spinning Earth?  We can't tell just by looking.  But we know one of them is spinning.

Foldouts Pendulum is good evidence it's us.

Ring Laser gyroscopes is even better evidence.

The fact that Newtons formulas can explain all the motions of the planets is good evidence.

Seeing Earth spin from space is good evidence, from hundreds of angles.

Seeing Earth spin from the Moon is good evidence.  They could see the stars moving as well behind the Earth and clearly tell the Earth was rotating at a different speed than the Moon was orbiting.  If the stars were rotating, the view from the Moon would be very different. The stars would rotate every 24 hours just like on Earth, but they didn't.

You put that all together and all the evidence says the Earth spins.

It's only when you focus on one thing and exclude everything else that it becomes unclear.  That's true for anything, it's why you keep collecting data and never put on the blinders.

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boydster

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2020, 04:03:43 PM »
Quote
That's hardly relevant when discussing observations

Is that so - why not exactly?  I think it is directly relevant.  You are observing the stars rotating around two clear celestial poles.  How then are they rotating if the Earth is stationary?
It irrelevant because what is being discussed is observed phenomena. The stars are observed to rotate around the Earth. You can't determine whether the Earth is rotating or the stars are rotating around it, or some combination thereof, based simply on the observation that the stars move and nothing else. This isn't really controversial, I'm not sure why you are pushing back.

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JackBlack

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2020, 04:08:32 PM »
Let's say just for the sake of argument that the Earth is fixed and the sky is rotating.  How then is the sky rotating and what is rotating?

We see all the stars as points of light and so we have no direct perception of distance. As such we can imagine the stars to be fixed to the inside surface of an imaginary sphere of undefined radius.  The movement of the stars seems to be such that there are two fixed points on the sky (the celestial poles) around which the stars rotate.  These points are 180 degrees apart and are aligned with the Earth geographic poles.  By that I mean if you stand at the north or south poles, the points on the sky which the stars appear to rotate around will be directly above you on the zenith. The geographic poles are also 180 degrees apart in terms of latitude.  So we get the impression of the celestial 'sphere' but we know (well I do at least) that this is just an illusion.

So the sky cannot be rotating because there is nothing physically there to rotate.
You have just described it, the celestial sphere. What says it is imaginary rather than a physical sphere?
Just like you can take the axis of Earth and project to the celestial sphere to obtain the celestial poles, you could likewise take the axis of the celestial sphere and project that to Earth to obtain the geographic poles.
It is the same axis, the axis about which there is relative rotation of Earth and the celestial sphere.

The simple fact is you cannot use the observed apparent motion of the sky/celestial sphere to determine Earth is rotating. You need more.
For example, you can try to determine if the celestial sphere is a physical object or just an imaginary sphere which celestial objects are projected onto.
Or you can use other experiments such as Focault's pendulum or laser ring gyros to determine if Earth is rotating.

Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2020, 04:26:43 PM »
If the celestial sphere is a physical sphere then how big is it, what is it made of, who or what put it there and what evidence is there for it being aphysical sphere?

Simply observing the stars rotating is not compelling enough evidence that a physical sphere exists.

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boydster

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2020, 04:33:11 PM »
If the celestial sphere is a physical sphere then how big is it, what is it made of, who or what put it there and what evidence is there for it being aphysical sphere?

Simply observing the stars rotating is not compelling enough evidence that a physical sphere exists.
You are missing the point entirely and moving the goalposts. Maybe just don't do that and actually look at what's being said.

Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2020, 04:43:02 PM »
The reason why I am missing the point as you so eloquently put it is that I just have a completely different and obviously incompatible mindset to you guys.

I know exactly what I mean when I talk about a celestial sphere. The same as any other amateur or pro astronomer means. Its a reference frame for describing the position of any celestial body and nothing more.

So to save myself from missing any more points I will say no more about it and let you guys argue among yourselves.


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JackBlack

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2020, 08:04:03 PM »
If the celestial sphere is a physical sphere then how big is it, what is it made of, who or what put it there and what evidence is there for it being aphysical sphere?

Simply observing the stars rotating is not compelling enough evidence that a physical sphere exists.
And no one was claiming it is compelling evidence that a physical sphere exists.
Instead they were pointing out that simple visual observations of the stars circling are not enough to conclude that Earth is rotating.
You need something more.

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2020, 11:14:58 PM »
The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.
No, they are stating that they will not ban people just because they disagree with you.
i.e. they will not abuse their powers to try silence opposition.
They are also saying that you not liking how someone debates is not grounds to have them banned either.

Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars.
Which has the exact issue that is already pointed out, but now you have worded it to avoid that issue.
Yes, such footage shows that Earth moves relative to the stars/sky.
But it does not tell you which is moving.

So no, such videos are not clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiments showing that the earth rotates.
They do not clearly show the rotation of Earth.

It could be Earth rotating with the sky stationary.
It could be the sky rotating with Earth stationary.
Or it could be both rotating, but at different rates (including where one rotates one way while the other rotates the other way, or where they both rotate in the same direction).

Sorry but you are wrong. Camera fixed on a tripod with long exposure rotating with the earth one gets star trails. Put the camera on a mount that rotates fixing on a point in the sky and the result is an animation that shows the earth rotating. I’m not sure what more proof you would require?

I love these fixed-on-a-star vids with the earth rotating. Super cool. But they don't prove anything. For instance, is the skier rotating and the earth is fixed or is the ground rotating and the skier is fixed? There's no way to objectively tell:



In the video you posted the camera is stationary relative to the guy on the skiing. The supporting evidence is the tracks in the snow and the way it’s being thrown up.

Likewise:-
Take two cameras one fixed one on a rotating mount, consider the images. Now add that to the other compelling evidence, night and day, Polaris, F’s pendulum all confirmed the footage from the satellite stationed at L1

No matter how strong the evidence people for reasons known only to themselves will use plain denial just as you did. Saying it does not prove anything is a pretty weak denialist argument.

Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2020, 11:16:38 PM »
If the celestial sphere is a physical sphere then how big is it, what is it made of, who or what put it there and what evidence is there for it being aphysical sphere?

Simply observing the stars rotating is not compelling enough evidence that a physical sphere exists.
And no one was claiming it is compelling evidence that a physical sphere exists.
Instead they were pointing out that simple visual observations of the stars circling are not enough to conclude that Earth is rotating.
You need something more.


I think you are wrong, but please explain what you mean by more. What would your more be?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2020, 11:19:25 PM »
If the celestial sphere is a physical sphere then how big is it, what is it made of, who or what put it there and what evidence is there for it being aphysical sphere?

Simply observing the stars rotating is not compelling enough evidence that a physical sphere exists.
You are missing the point entirely and moving the goalposts. Maybe just don't do that and actually look at what's being said.

Rather than pursuing an argument based entirely on negativity how about you present your case for a stationary earth and both sets of evidence can be examined side by side. You must after all have some compelling ones.

I for one can’t wait to see what you have.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2020, 11:21:00 PM »
Let's say just for the sake of argument that the Earth is fixed and the sky is rotating.  How then is the sky rotating and what is rotating?

We see all the stars as points of light and so we have no direct perception of distance. As such we can imagine the stars to be fixed to the inside surface of an imaginary sphere of undefined radius.  The movement of the stars seems to be such that there are two fixed points on the sky (the celestial poles) around which the stars rotate.  These points are 180 degrees apart and are aligned with the Earth geographic poles.  By that I mean if you stand at the north or south poles, the points on the sky which the stars appear to rotate around will be directly above you on the zenith. The geographic poles are also 180 degrees apart in terms of latitude.  So we get the impression of the celestial 'sphere' but we know (well I do at least) that this is just an illusion.

So the sky cannot be rotating because there is nothing physically there to rotate.
You have just described it, the celestial sphere. What says it is imaginary rather than a physical sphere?
Just like you can take the axis of Earth and project to the celestial sphere to obtain the celestial poles, you could likewise take the axis of the celestial sphere and project that to Earth to obtain the geographic poles.
It is the same axis, the axis about which there is relative rotation of Earth and the celestial sphere.

The simple fact is you cannot use the observed apparent motion of the sky/celestial sphere to determine Earth is rotating. You need more.
For example, you can try to determine if the celestial sphere is a physical object or just an imaginary sphere which celestial objects are projected onto.
Or you can use other experiments such as Focault's pendulum or laser ring gyros to determine if Earth is rotating.

You actually stand by that comment?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2020, 11:33:36 PM »
As is always the case the discussion has come around to examining evidence that is against flat earth beliefs. Where is the evidence That supports it?

The whole point of this discussion was to ask why is there no scientific or observational evidence for a flat Earth? Why do most the discussions on this forum always come around to flat earth negative arguments? Why do they never present positive ones? Is it because no positive arguments exist?

In all debates both sides should present evidence to support their views. The arguments for a spinning orbiting planet earth look to be  beyond doubt. I have not seen any counter arguments from a flat earth perspective to disprove that fact.

So....what is the compelling evidence that make some people believe we live on a stationary planet?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Stash

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2020, 12:03:40 AM »
The admin and mods are telling us that they are powerless to apply the rules, to take care of business.
No, they are stating that they will not ban people just because they disagree with you.
i.e. they will not abuse their powers to try silence opposition.
They are also saying that you not liking how someone debates is not grounds to have them banned either.

Doing that clearly shows the earth rotating in respect to the stars.
Which has the exact issue that is already pointed out, but now you have worded it to avoid that issue.
Yes, such footage shows that Earth moves relative to the stars/sky.
But it does not tell you which is moving.

So no, such videos are not clear and simple ground based NASA FREE experiments showing that the earth rotates.
They do not clearly show the rotation of Earth.

It could be Earth rotating with the sky stationary.
It could be the sky rotating with Earth stationary.
Or it could be both rotating, but at different rates (including where one rotates one way while the other rotates the other way, or where they both rotate in the same direction).

Sorry but you are wrong. Camera fixed on a tripod with long exposure rotating with the earth one gets star trails. Put the camera on a mount that rotates fixing on a point in the sky and the result is an animation that shows the earth rotating. I’m not sure what more proof you would require?

I love these fixed-on-a-star vids with the earth rotating. Super cool. But they don't prove anything. For instance, is the skier rotating and the earth is fixed or is the ground rotating and the skier is fixed? There's no way to objectively tell:



In the video you posted the camera is stationary relative to the guy on the skiing. The supporting evidence is the tracks in the snow and the way it’s being thrown up.

Actually no, from this I can't tell who or what is in motion. Is the skier in motion, the camera or the earth? In this scenario, the skier could be stationary, the earth could be moving beneath him causing him to make concentric circles as the camera revolves around the skier. If you take the blinders off, it's anyone's guess, really.

The point being, a camera fixed on a star and locked to the earth is in no way a proof that the sky revolves around us. Just as much as a camera fixed on a star, but not locked on earth, shows star trails moving around a "fixed earth" is proof of a stationary earth.

In other words, it's a non-proof either way. Additional observations are required to show the preponderance of evidence that the earth is not fixed, but in motion. I believe in the preponderance of evidence revealing a rotating, in motion earth, but your videos are not part of that evidence.

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JackBlack

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Re: Where exactly is it?
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2020, 12:22:30 AM »
The supporting evidence is ...
Now add that to the other compelling evidence ...
That is the point. The visual observation alone IS NOT ENOUGH to conclude Earth is rotating!
You need more evidence than just that.

I think you are wrong, but please explain what you mean by more. What would your more be?
And you thinking I am wrong doesn't magically mean I am wrong.
I have already provided examples of what that more would be.
Other's have provided it as well.
Things like Focault's pendulum, and laser ring gyroscopes.

If you don't think you need more then tell us how you can tell what is moving from that simple visual observation of relative motion.
How you can tell if it is Earth or the sky that is rotating, merely from footage showing their relative motion.
How you can tell if it is Earth or the Ferris wheel that is rotating, merely from footage showing their relative motion.

The simple fact is you cannot use the observed apparent motion of the sky/celestial sphere to determine Earth is rotating. You need more.
For example, you can try to determine if the celestial sphere is a physical object or just an imaginary sphere which celestial objects are projected onto.
Or you can use other experiments such as Focault's pendulum or laser ring gyros to determine if Earth is rotating.
You actually stand by that comment?
Yes. Just like any sane person who actually understands the point would.

Like the above, if you disagree, clearly explain how you can tell which is moving.

The whole point of this discussion was to ask why is there no scientific or observational evidence for a flat Earth?
And it got derailed by people claiming they can see Earth rotating and that somehow this visual observation of the relative motion of the stars and Earth proves that Earth is rotating.

In all debates both sides should present evidence to support their views.
That actually depends on what is being debated and what style of debate.
With some, it isn't about evidence as the topic is quite subjective.
In a lot it is actually one side putting forward their view and the other side showing that view isn't supported/justified.