Did Vukovar Massacre really happen?

So, what do you guys here think, did the Vukovar Massacre of 1991 really happen? The most smart-sounding argument I've heard for Vukovar Revisionism is that, if the mainstream story of Vukovar Massacre isn't mythological, how come do the names of people and places in it appear symbolic? Consider, the name "Vukovar" can be read as "city of wolves" (wolf being a very demonized animal). It doesn't actually come from those words (it actually means "city on the Vuka river", and "Vuka" was called "Ulca" in ancient times, probably from an Illyrian language and perhaps related to the name of the river "Volga"), but people who made up that myth of Vukovar Massacre perhaps didn't know that. And a part of Vukovar where there is supposedly a mass grave is called "Ovčara". "Ovčara" means "meat from sheep" in Croatian. The mainstream history tells us that the leader of the Croatian army in Vukovar, to whom president Tuđman supposedly refused to send weapons, is called "Mile Dedaković". So, the name of an innocent and helpless Croatian politician literally translates to "Dear Grandfather". And the name of the leader of the illegal army that commited the massacre is called "Željko Raznatović". That means "one who wants to destroy" ("raznijeti" is a rare, but still well-known, word for "destroy"). Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
For similar reasons, I think Varivode Massacre in 1995 didn't happen either. "Varivode" means "cooked meat" (from Croatian "variti" meaning "to cook")... that the victims of the massacre were turned into? Hmmm...
I also doubt that the Tiananmen Square Massacre actually happened. "Tiananmen" means "gate to heaven". Why exactly would somebody call a part of the city "gate to heaven", except to make a good story about a massacre? Though, admittedly, the name "Tiananmen" is not nearly as ironic as the names "Ovčara" and "Varivode" are.
Perhaps you'd like to stick with hard sciences, and you consider linguistics to be a soft science. Well, to me it seems it's easy to use hard science to argue against large massacres having occurred. Though it's not exactly my field of expertise (I am an electrical engineering student at the FERIT University), to me it seems that bombs contradict the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It says that the efficiency of a heat engine must be less than 100%. In a bomb, you are supposed to put very little heat to activate it, yet get tremendous amount of mechanical energy and heat from it. Its efficiency as a heat engine would have to be much greater than 100%. A body can't do work from its own internal energy, it needs to get energy from somewhere else to do the work. Bombs seem to contradict that principle. Could it be that bombs are like anti-gravity-chambers, everyone thinks they exist (thanks to books and movies), yet they contradict basic physics?
We can also use some philosophical arguments against believing in massacres. For example, a massacre is very hard to be looking at, so there can be no reliable eye-witnesses of it. Also, what do you think, how can I be happy if I believe there was a large massacre less than 20 miles from here and less than 30 years ago? If there was, then something like that can happen again, right? Besides, this depends on how we define the truth. Do you believe in the utilitarian theory of the truth? If so, how is large massacres having occurred existing the truth? Believing that just makes you feel you bad, and you can't do anything about that.
I've started this discussion on a few forums by now, for example on the TextKit Latin language forum.

I also doubt that the Tiananmen Square Massacre actually happened.

Talk about revisionist history..... What do you have to support this ridiculous doubt you have? Tell us which other well documented and reported massacres never actually happened? Please fill our heads with even more of your nonsense  Cant wait

Do those arguments sound compelling to you?

No.

Talk about revisionist history

Well, I've talked a lot about revisionist history here. And even more so here. People don't seem to have problems with the fact that I am talking about historical revisionism.

What do you have to support this ridiculous doubt you have?

Well, the Chinese government denies that anybody died at the Tiananmen Square. And governments, with all their flaws, may be the best source of information we have about such things.
Also, like I said in the post you quoted, the ironic meanings in names suggest that the story is made up. Tiananmen means "gate to heaven"... where the victims of the massacre were sent? Hmmm...

Well, the Chinese government denies that anybody died at the Tiananmen Square. And governments, with all their flaws, may be the best source of information we have about such things.
Also, like I said in the post you quoted, the ironic meanings in names suggest that the story is made up. Tiananmen means "gate to heaven"... where the victims of the massacre were sent? Hmmm...

You don't think anyone died in Tiananmen Square either?

Because of the name?

That's just insane, not to mention makes no sense at all. Literally crazy talk.

Quote from: Shifter

What do you have to support this ridiculous doubt you have?

Well, the Chinese government denies that anybody died at the Tiananmen Square. And governments, with all their flaws, may be the best source of information we have about such things.
Also, like I said in the post you quoted, the ironic meanings in names suggest that the story is made up. Tiananmen means "gate to heaven"... where the victims of the massacre were sent? Hmmm...

I lol'ed

You do realise that the CCP is no bastion of truth right? You have got to be joking


I'm sure the tanks were just there to say hello

Don't believe the thousands and thousands of families that never saw their loved ones again. They must all be liars. Don't believe the hospitals who had to treat the injured either. Trust the CCP am I right? 

I'll leave a link to this picture below. Too graphic, but hey, like you say, no one died
http://weeklyecho.com/blog/media/1/20060605-TiananmenBodies.jpg

You are a loon. Kindly spout your CCP propaganda some place else

No.

Well, those linguistic arguments sound compelling to me, and I've published papers in peer-reviewed journals about linguistics. And particularly about onomastics (the part of linguistics that deals with names), about my alternative interpretation of the names of places in Croatia. So, ask yourself, if it doesn't make sense to you, is it more likely that I am wrong or that you are wrong?

You do realise that the CCP is no bastion of truth right?

Well, they are fighting for the truth. Unfortunately, if you ask me, in the counter-productive way. Censorship doesn't prevent bad ideas from spreading, it prevents them from being discussed. I think less people would believe what the western media have to say about Tiananmen Square if CCP wasn't fighting fake news.

I'll leave a link to this picture below.

You believe the Moon Landing was possible to fake in 1969, right? If so, why couldn't those pictures be faked in 1989?

Kindly spout your CCP propaganda some place else

Look, I don't support communism at all. I am an anarcho-capitalist, almost the exact opposite of what CCP believes. But the best evidence we have suggests that Tiananmen Square Massacre didn't occur, so, regardless of what we think about communism, we shouldn't believe in Tiananmen Square Massacre.

Where is the evidence it didn't occur? Because there is plenty of evidence to say that it did

I guess you also think thousands of families and the hospitals are simply lying for.... reasons

If you have evidence that this 'massacre' is nothing but a conspiracy and that the CCP is innocent then post it up.

The CCP is not truthful and does not fight for the truth. You will find very few people, even in mainland China who believe them if you could get them to speak candidly without fear. Of course they toe the line because they know the consequence is jail or death.

Where is the evidence it didn't occur?

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and the same goes for CCP.

If you have evidence that this 'massacre' is nothing but a conspiracy and that the CCP is innocent then post it up.

The fact that CCP is able to deny that is itself strong evidence it didn't occur. Other than that, yeah, the ironic meanings in names ("Tiananmen" meaning "gate to heaven") are also evidence.

Of course they toe the line because they know the consequence is jail or death.

Can you point me to somebody who actually got into jail for criticizing the CCP?

Quote from: Shifter

Where is the evidence it didn't occur?

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and the same goes for CCP.

Quote from: Shifter

If you have evidence that this 'massacre' is nothing but a conspiracy and that the CCP is innocent then post it up.

The fact that CCP is able to deny that is itself strong evidence it didn't occur. Other than that, yeah, the ironic meanings in names ("Tiananmen" meaning "gate to heaven") are also evidence.

Quote from: Shifter

Of course they toe the line because they know the consequence is jail or death.

Can you point me to somebody who actually got into jail for criticizing the CCP?

Well, I always thought you had a screw loose or 2 but this really takes the cake. I'm not even going to dignify your screwed up mindset with a timely response. You're a fruit loop. A fruit loop that's been digested and come out the other end....

I suppose you think Mao Zedong was a stand up guy and no one suffered under his rule. I suppose the 'cultural revolution' never happened either? Maybe you think it was a great time to be alive in China. Perhaps no one died because of it either right? 

So, what do you guys here think, did the Vukovar Massacre of 1991 really happen? The most smart-sounding argument I've heard for Vukovar Revisionism is that, if the mainstream story of Vukovar Massacre isn't mythological, how come do the names of people and places in it appear symbolic? Consider, the name "Vukovar" can be read as "city of wolves" (wolf being a very demonized animal). It doesn't actually come from those words (it actually means "city on the Vuka river", and "Vuka" was called "Ulca" in ancient times, probably from an Illyrian language and perhaps related to the name of the river "Volga"), but people who made up that myth of Vukovar Massacre perhaps didn't know that. And a part of Vukovar where there is supposedly a mass grave is called "Ovčara". "Ovčara" means "meat from sheep" in Croatian. The mainstream history tells us that the leader of the Croatian army in Vukovar, to whom president Tuđman supposedly refused to send weapons, is called "Mile Dedaković". So, the name of an innocent and helpless Croatian politician literally translates to "Dear Grandfather". And the name of the leader of the illegal army that commited the massacre is called "Željko Raznatović". That means "one who wants to destroy" ("raznijeti" is a rare, but still well-known, word for "destroy"). Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
For similar reasons, I think Varivode Massacre in 1995 didn't happen either. "Varivode" means "cooked meat" (from Croatian "variti" meaning "to cook")... that the victims of the massacre were turned into? Hmmm...
I also doubt that the Tiananmen Square Massacre actually happened. "Tiananmen" means "gate to heaven". Why exactly would somebody call a part of the city "gate to heaven", except to make a good story about a massacre? Though, admittedly, the name "Tiananmen" is not nearly as ironic as the names "Ovčara" and "Varivode" are.
Perhaps you'd like to stick with hard sciences, and you consider linguistics to be a soft science. Well, to me it seems it's easy to use hard science to argue against large massacres having occurred. Though it's not exactly my field of expertise (I am an electrical engineering student at the FERIT University), to me it seems that bombs contradict the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It says that the efficiency of a heat engine must be less than 100%. In a bomb, you are supposed to put very little heat to activate it, yet get tremendous amount of mechanical energy and heat from it. Its efficiency as a heat engine would have to be much greater than 100%. A body can't do work from its own internal energy, it needs to get energy from somewhere else to do the work. Bombs seem to contradict that principle. Could it be that bombs are like anti-gravity-chambers, everyone thinks they exist (thanks to books and movies), yet they contradict basic physics?
We can also use some philosophical arguments against believing in massacres. For example, a massacre is very hard to be looking at, so there can be no reliable eye-witnesses of it. Also, what do you think, how can I be happy if I believe there was a large massacre less than 20 miles from here and less than 30 years ago? If there was, then something like that can happen again, right? Besides, this depends on how we define the truth. Do you believe in the utilitarian theory of the truth? If so, how is large massacres having occurred existing the truth? Believing that just makes you feel you bad, and you can't do anything about that.
I've started this discussion on a few forums by now, for example on the TextKit Latin language forum.

This random bullshit reads like it was written by a poorly performing bot.

You also claim to be an electrical engineering student, yet don't understand potential energy?

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 10:27:20 AM

Quote from: Shifter

Where is the evidence it didn't occur?

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and the same goes for CCP.

Quote from: Shifter

If you have evidence that this 'massacre' is nothing but a conspiracy and that the CCP is innocent then post it up.

The fact that CCP is able to deny that is itself strong evidence it didn't occur. Other than that, yeah, the ironic meanings in names ("Tiananmen" meaning "gate to heaven") are also evidence.

Quote from: Shifter

Of course they toe the line because they know the consequence is jail or death.

Can you point me to somebody who actually got into jail for criticizing the CCP?

Well, I always thought you had a screw loose or 2 but this really takes the cake. I'm not even going to dignify your screwed up mindset with a timely response. You're a fruit loop. A fruit loop that's been digested and come out the other end....

I suppose you think Mao Zedong was a stand up guy and no one suffered under his rule. I suppose the 'cultural revolution' never happened either? Maybe you think it was a great time to be alive in China. Perhaps no one died because of it either right? 

No, the Chinese government doesn't deny that the Great Chinese Famine happened and that it was mostly caused by bad government policies. Furthermore, there are (as far as I know) no ironic meanings in names there.

Quote from: Shifter

Where is the evidence it didn't occur?

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and the same goes for CCP.

I think that there are a bunch of Chinese political prisoners who would disagree with you.

Quote from: Shifter

If you have evidence that this 'massacre' is nothing but a conspiracy and that the CCP is innocent then post it up.

The fact that CCP is able to deny that is itself strong evidence it didn't occur. Other than that, yeah, the ironic meanings in names ("Tiananmen" meaning "gate to heaven") are also evidence.

Names of places are only evidence that places have names.

Quote from: Shifter

Of course they toe the line because they know the consequence is jail or death.

Can you point me to somebody who actually got into jail for criticizing the CCP?

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-deals-with-dissent-threats-family-arrests-2018-8
https://freedomhouse.org/article/china-global-leader-political-prisoners
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/29/china-first-cyber-dissident-huang-qi-jailed-12-years
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_dissidents

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 08:05:12 AM

So, what do you guys here think, did the Vukovar Massacre of 1991 really happen? The most smart-sounding argument I've heard for Vukovar Revisionism is that, if the mainstream story of Vukovar Massacre isn't mythological, how come do the names of people and places in it appear symbolic? Consider, the name "Vukovar" can be read as "city of wolves" (wolf being a very demonized animal). It doesn't actually come from those words (it actually means "city on the Vuka river", and "Vuka" was called "Ulca" in ancient times, probably from an Illyrian language and perhaps related to the name of the river "Volga"), but people who made up that myth of Vukovar Massacre perhaps didn't know that. And a part of Vukovar where there is supposedly a mass grave is called "Ovčara". "Ovčara" means "meat from sheep" in Croatian. The mainstream history tells us that the leader of the Croatian army in Vukovar, to whom president Tuđman supposedly refused to send weapons, is called "Mile Dedaković". So, the name of an innocent and helpless Croatian politician literally translates to "Dear Grandfather". And the name of the leader of the illegal army that commited the massacre is called "Željko Raznatović". That means "one who wants to destroy" ("raznijeti" is a rare, but still well-known, word for "destroy"). Do those arguments sound compelling to you?
For similar reasons, I think Varivode Massacre in 1995 didn't happen either. "Varivode" means "cooked meat" (from Croatian "variti" meaning "to cook")... that the victims of the massacre were turned into? Hmmm...
I also doubt that the Tiananmen Square Massacre actually happened. "Tiananmen" means "gate to heaven". Why exactly would somebody call a part of the city "gate to heaven", except to make a good story about a massacre? Though, admittedly, the name "Tiananmen" is not nearly as ironic as the names "Ovčara" and "Varivode" are.
Perhaps you'd like to stick with hard sciences, and you consider linguistics to be a soft science. Well, to me it seems it's easy to use hard science to argue against large massacres having occurred. Though it's not exactly my field of expertise (I am an electrical engineering student at the FERIT University), to me it seems that bombs contradict the Second Law of Thermodynamics. It says that the efficiency of a heat engine must be less than 100%. In a bomb, you are supposed to put very little heat to activate it, yet get tremendous amount of mechanical energy and heat from it. Its efficiency as a heat engine would have to be much greater than 100%. A body can't do work from its own internal energy, it needs to get energy from somewhere else to do the work. Bombs seem to contradict that principle. Could it be that bombs are like anti-gravity-chambers, everyone thinks they exist (thanks to books and movies), yet they contradict basic physics?
We can also use some philosophical arguments against believing in massacres. For example, a massacre is very hard to be looking at, so there can be no reliable eye-witnesses of it. Also, what do you think, how can I be happy if I believe there was a large massacre less than 20 miles from here and less than 30 years ago? If there was, then something like that can happen again, right? Besides, this depends on how we define the truth. Do you believe in the utilitarian theory of the truth? If so, how is large massacres having occurred existing the truth? Believing that just makes you feel you bad, and you can't do anything about that.
I've started this discussion on a few forums by now, for example on the TextKit Latin language forum.

This random bullshit reads like it was written by a poorly performing bot.

You also claim to be an electrical engineering student, yet don't understand potential energy?

And if I wasn't an engineering student, why would I have made a programming language and implemented my sorting algorithm in it?

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

My guess would be that you don't seem to understand the stored (potential) energy that can be released by certain chemical reactions (like when bombs explode).

I think that there are a bunch of Chinese political prisoners who would disagree with you.

You think that, do you have some good argument for that? Western media reporting that? Western media also report some Croatian journalists, most notably Gordan Duhaček, ended up in jail for criticising the government. Do you think I should also believe that? How can I be happy if I believe that? If it really happened to Gordan Duhaček, it can also happen to me, right?

Names of places are only evidence that places have names.

Symbolic meanings in names are typical of fictional stories, as such they are evidence that a story is fictional.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 10:51:27 AM

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

My guess would be that you don't seem to understand the stored (potential) energy that can be released by certain chemical reactions (like when bombs explode).

If I correctly understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the bomb can't use its own internal energy to do mechanical work (that is, to explode), but it has to get energy from some other body. The potential chemical energy stored in the bomb is an internal energy to that bomb, rather than usable energy, right?

Quote from: JJA

No.

Well, those linguistic arguments sound compelling to me, and I've published papers in peer-reviewed journals about linguistics. And particularly about onomastics (the part of linguistics that deals with names), about my alternative interpretation of the names of places in Croatia. So, ask yourself, if it doesn't make sense to you, is it more likely that I am wrong or that you are wrong?

The fact that you think well documented tragedies are somehow just fake conspiracies because of the names of where they took place is compelling to you is only proof of your own mental state.

So nope, doesn't make sense to me at all. You are discounting everything in favor of, this word sounds like that word. That, is crazy.

Lots of people on this site claim to have peer-reviewed papers in journals. I've yet to see one, and unless your paper is on how all these killings were fake because of the names of the places they were in, it wouldn't matter anyway.

Publish a paper on this subject and show us that.  Otherwise, it's just another crazy conspiracy theory.  I've known plenty of published researchers who were full of **** on other subjects. You would not be the first.

Quote from: markjo

I think that there are a bunch of Chinese political prisoners who would disagree with you.

You think that, do you have some good argument for that? Western media reporting that? Western media also report some Croatian journalists, most notably Gordan Duhaček, ended up in jail for criticising the government. Do you think I should also believe that? How can I be happy if I believe that? If it really happened to Gordan Duhaček, it can also happen to me, right?

One of the benefits of a free society is that you can believe whoever and whatever you want.  Now, ask yourself if Chinese people are free to believe who and what they want.

Quote from: markjo

Names of places are only evidence that places have names.

Symbolic meanings in names are typical of fictional stories, as such they are evidence that a story is fictional.

Symbolic meanings in names are typical of naming things in reality too.  Or is the symbolic meaning of your username evidence that you are fictional? 

Personally, I try not to get too hung up on symbolism because it can lead you down some pretty weird rabbit holes.

FlatAssembler makes up stories, posts them on the FES, people take the bait.

Other than that, yeah, the ironic meanings in names ("Tiananmen" meaning "gate to heaven") are also evidence.

Definitely my favorite part: Irony = Evidence

The linguist does not know the square was named for the mountain.

The cunning linguist does not know the square was named for the mountain.

Sorry, couldn't help it. 

Quote from: markjo on July 08, 2020, 11:15:46 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 10:51:27 AM

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

My guess would be that you don't seem to understand the stored (potential) energy that can be released by certain chemical reactions (like when bombs explode).

If I correctly understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the bomb can't use its own internal energy to do mechanical work (that is, to explode), but it has to get energy from some other body. The potential chemical energy stored in the bomb is an internal energy to that bomb, rather than usable energy, right?

You appear to not understand it.

One time he tried to have a conversation with an obvious spambot.

Quote from: markjo on July 08, 2020, 11:15:46 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 10:51:27 AM

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

My guess would be that you don't seem to understand the stored (potential) energy that can be released by certain chemical reactions (like when bombs explode).

If I correctly understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the bomb can't use its own internal energy to do mechanical work (that is, to explode), but it has to get energy from some other body.  The potential chemical energy stored in the bomb is an internal energy to that bomb, rather than usable energy, right?

Wrong.  Not even close.

Quote from: markjo on July 08, 2020, 11:15:46 AM

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 08, 2020, 10:51:27 AM

What about potential energy do you think I don't understand and why?

My guess would be that you don't seem to understand the stored (potential) energy that can be released by certain chemical reactions (like when bombs explode).

If I correctly understand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, the bomb can't use its own internal energy to do mechanical work (that is, to explode), but it has to get energy from some other body. The potential chemical energy stored in the bomb is an internal energy to that bomb, rather than usable energy, right?

For two hundred dollars I can give you the answer. Otherwise research topics related to activation energy.

The linguist does not know the square was named for the mountain.

The Linguist doesn't know that it has not passed the Turing Test.

FlatAssembler makes up stories, posts them on the FES, people take the bait.

Thanks for the spoiler.

One time he tried to have a conversation with an obvious spambot.

His initial post in this thread reads like a bot...