Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Sunrise Times

Let's go to the future: next EQUINOX on September 22st, 2020.

Jakarta and Ulaanbaatar share the same longitudes: 106 E.

The sunrives of Jakarta occures at 5:42 AM

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020


While the sunrives of Ulaanbataar occures at 6:39 AM

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/mongolia/ulaanbaatar?month=9&year=2020

The difference is nearly 1 hour!

HOW DARE YOU

Ahm. Cough cough! Globalists can answer this question considering the axis of rotation of the earth is inclined.

But I want to reply it considering the flat earth reality. The places stay north are closer to the sun than places at the same longitude but stay south, at sun rising and sun setting. For this reason, the sun always rises earlier the places have same longtitued but placed further North. And globularist so called inclined rotation never causes a place stay south but sun rise earlier because of its being a fallacy.

Yours sincerely.

Let's go to the future: next EQUINOX on September 22st, 2020.

Jakarta and Ulaanbaatar share the same latitudes: 106 E.

106 E is longitude not latitude!

The sunrives of Jakarta occures at 5:42 AM

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

While the sunrives of Ulaanbataar occures at 6:39 AM

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/mongolia/ulaanbaatar?month=9&year=2020

The difference is nearly 1 hour!

Not really -  check time zones of Jakarta (UTC +7) and Ulaanbataar (UTC +8) - there is your 1 hour difference.

On September 22st, 2020 the sunrise in Jakarta will occur at 5:42 AM (Jakarta time) and solar noon will be at 11:45 AM and
in Ulaanbataar will occur at 6:39 AM (Ulaanbataar time) and solar noon will be at 12:44 AM.

hmm....

It’s disappointing you made such a big error.

And few minute can be beacise height. I mean, horison is lower on higher heights so sun will rise earlier and set later

hmm....

Oops.

I suppose the one thing Flat Earthers and the rest of us have in common is we all make mistakes.

I've certainly said things that were wrong when debating. It's no fun admitting mistakes.

It's fun laughing at them though.

On September 22st, 2020 the sunrise in Jakarta will occur at 5:42 AM (Jakarta time) and solar noon will be at 11:45 AM and
in Ulaanbataar will occur at 6:39 AM (Ulaanbataar time) and solar noon will be at 12:44 AM PM.

Speaking of silly mistakes. 

Also, it's kinda goofy how time zones don't necessarily follow longitude lines very closely.

Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again 

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later
 

Rab already noted the time-zone error in your first tale of two cities, which is the bulk of the difference, but what about the remaining three minutes?

Ulaanbaatar is also at almost 48° N latitude, whereas Jakarta is nearly on the equator at 6° S. At sunrise and sunset in Jakarta the sun intersects the horizon almost vertically, but it intersects the horizon at a much shallower angle, about 42°, in Ulaanbaatar. Since that calculator includes refraction, that extends the time the upper limb of the sun is above the horizon more at Ulaanbaatar than at Jakarta. Look at the length of day for those two cities on that date: Jakarta 12:06:22; Ulaanbaatar 12:10:59, or 4m37s longer. Split that between sunrise and sunset, and you get 2m18s earlier and later.

Ulaanbaatar is also about 6' of longitude east of Jakarta (according to their locations in Wikipedia - I don't see the locations assigned by timeanddate), which would shift rise and set times earlier by about 6/15 minute, or 24 seconds. Shifting sunrise and sunset earlier by 24 seconds gives sunrise 2m42s earlier and sunset 1m54s later. This is consistent with the reported 3-minute earlier and 2-minute later time after rounding to the minute.

There is no problem.

Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again 

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later

Time zone in Hong Kong (GMT+8)

Time zone in Jakarta, Indonesia (GMT+7)

The times you listed are local times, which puts Hong Kong 1 hour ahead.  The corrected times would be...

Hong Kong - 06:11 AM (GMT+8)
Jakarta - 6:42 AM  (GMT+8)

As markjo said, Sun rises in Hong Kong first, and Alpha2Omega provided even more detail.

London 06:47
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london?month=9&year=2020

Accra 05:50
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/ghana/accra?month=9&year=2020

Once again, different time zone. You really need to figure out what time zones are.

I'm going to laugh now.  Making a mistake once is fine.  Making it over and over again... I can laugh at that, right?

Quote from: Danang on July 01, 2020, 07:16:37 AM

Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again 

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Sunrives 06:11 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/hong-kong/hong-kong?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Sunrives 05:42 AM
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/jakarta?month=9&year=2020

Jakarta first and then Hong Kong later

Time zone in Hong Kong (GMT+8)

Time zone in Jakarta, Indonesia (GMT+7)

The times you listed are local times, which puts Hong Kong 1 hour ahead.  The corrected times would be...

Hong Kong - 06:11 AM (GMT+8)
Jakarta - 6:42 AM  (GMT+8)

As markjo said, Sun rises in Hong Kong first, and Alpha2Omega provided even more detail.

Hey, Danang... did you notice there is a Time Zone tab near the top of each of those pages? If you look at those, you can avoid making this type of error.

HK and Jakarta are both at low latitudes, so the length of daylight is closer to the same for these two cities. As JJA corrected the times for the different time zones, sunset is 31 minutes later (as expected) in Jakarta because it's about 8° further west (using your numbers). Since the mean apparent motion of the sun is 15°/hour and ignoring everything else, you'd expect the sun to rise and set about 8/15 hour = 32 minutes later in Jakarta, right in line with the 31-minute difference in the tables after correcting for the different time zones.

I'm going to laugh now.  Making a mistake once is fine.  Making it over and over again... I can laugh at that, right?

I can only think he knows what he's doing and his having a joke. 

👸: "Teacher, what time zones do London & Accra have?"

💂: "London GMT +0 And Accra GMT +1000"

A more accurate title for this thread would be: Same Longitudes Ain't Necessarily Same Time Zones

Also, don't forget that some areas in the same time zone observe Daylight Saving Time while others don't.

The difference is nearly 1 hour!

Because of time zones.
Time zones are typically separated by country or state rather than 15 degrees, where for example China, even though it is quite large, has a single time zone.
This means many places do not have a time zone running through the entire longitude.

See this map:


You are probably interested in this region here:


If we use the reference of UTC at 0 degrees east as +0, then these cities, being at roughly 107 degrees East should be roughly +7.066 hrs (105 degrees east would be the "perfect" +7 hours.

Jakarta, in blue, is in UTC+7.
But Ulaanbataar, in green, is in UTC +8.
That means their clock is 1 hour off compared to Jakarta.
At 5:42 AM in Jakarta, it is 6:42 AM in Ulaanbataar.
That means instead of a 1 hour time difference you are looking at a 3 minute time difference.

As the equinox is at 9:30 PM on the 22nd, you are better off looking at sunset times on the 22nd.
That gives you a 2 minute difference, with values only accurate to the minute, so somewhere between a 1 minute difference and a 3 minute difference.

But they aren't exactly the same longitude.
Ulaanbataar is further east and thus the sun should rise and set earlier.
With it being roughly 15 degrees per hour, each degree of longitude is 4 minutes.
So each minute of arc is roughly equal to 4 seconds.
Their ~ 6 arc minute difference equates to almost 30 s difference for sunrise and sunset time.
Then you also need to consider latitude and altitude.
Even on the equinox it still isn't perfectly 12 hours of day and night each. The further you are away from the equator, or the higher your altitude (at least assuming you aren't on a massive plateau) the more day and night you have. Ulaanbataar, being further away from the equator and a higher altitude has a longer amount of daylight hours than Jakarta. 12 hours and 10 minutes compared to 12 hours and 6 minutes.

So what is the problem?
You don't understand timezones?

Looking forward to seeing your creativity to blame me again

You mean a simple, honest analysis?

Hong Kong
Longitude: 114 E
Timezone UTC +8
Sunrise 06:12 AM UTC +8

Jakarta
Longitude: 106 E
Timezone UTC+7
Sunrives 05:42 AM UTC +7
Sunrives 06:42 AM UTC +8

Hong Kong first and then Jakarta later

It is the exact same error you made before.
You completely ignored the fact that time zones exist to pretend there was a problem.

London 06:47
Accra 05:50

Same problem, now with DST thrown in.
London 0647 UTC +1 = 0547 UTC
Accra 0550 UTC.

So roughly the same time.

👸: "Teacher, what time zones do London & Accra have?"

💂: "London GMT +0 And Accra GMT +1000"

You should get a new teacher.
💂: Accra is UTC, with no summer time or daylight saving time.
London varies, using summer time, which is UTC+1 from late March to late October and is UTC at other times.

Ahm. Cough cough! Globalists can answer this question considering the axis of rotation of the earth is inclined.
But I want to reply it considering the flat earth reality. The places stay north are closer to the sun than places at the same longitude but stay south, at sun rising and sun setting. For this reason, the sun always rises earlier the places have same longtitued but placed further North. And globularist so called inclined rotation never causes a place stay south but sun rise earlier because of its being a fallacy.

No, that doesn't apply at all.
For starters, he is focusing on the equinox, where the tilt towards the sun is 0. That means places on the equator will be closest.
But even your explaination of axial tilt makes no sense as it isn't a case of it being closer to the sun, it is a case of it being tilted towards the sun such that the daylight region of Earth spans more than 180 degrees of longitude.

And you are wrong with the south as well. That is another way we know the FE model is wrong. For roughly half the year the southern side of Earth is tilted towards the sun and the south has longer daylight hours.
For example, Sydney, on the southern solstice, gets 14:24:46, while Melbourne, further south, gets 14:47:23. Hobart, even further south, gets 15:21:08, and Ushuaia, one of the most southerly locations you can go without going to Antartica, gets 17:20:01.

So no, it works both in the north and the south.

Meanwhile, the FE disk can't explain that at all.

I suppose the one thing Flat Earthers and the rest of us have in common is we all make mistakes.

I've certainly said things that were wrong when debating. It's no fun admitting mistakes.

The question is if they are actually making mistakes, or if they are being intentionally dishonest.

I know some people say to never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity, but I find the sheer level of stupidity required, especially for something like time zones, makes malice a far more likely candidate, and would find implying stupidity to be far more insulting.
Especially when they make the same "mistakes" repeatedly.

Solar noon is not exactly at 12.00 even if the longitude is at 15° folds.

Example:
Bandar Lampung (105°)
The solar noon occures at 11:51

https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/indonesia/tanjungkarang?month=9&year=2020

Daytime is also not exactly 12 hours  It's 12 hours and 6 minutes.

Now what's your answer?

The actual equinox is just a moment, not the whole 24 hours. Also that location isn’t exactly on the equator.

Solar noon is not exactly at 12.00 even if the longitude is at 15° folds.

So what?
The fact that Earth's orbit is elliptical and the axis is tilted means the time required for the sun to reach solar noon will vary day by day.
This can be photographed as the analemma.

Also, there is no reason for 0 degrees to be aligned with solar noon.

Daytime is also not exactly 12 hours  It's 12 hours and 6 minutes.

Because the sun, by virtue of being larger than Earth, actually illuminates more than 50% of the surface of Earth.
And refraction of light through the atmosphere makes it go a little further.
That means that even without any axial tilt, day will be longer than 12 hours.

Daytime is longer than 12 hours because the sunray's strength/intencity is able to illuminate more than 180° of delta longtude. It applies under flat earth model.

No matter how big it is, an extremely distanct light sourch cannot touch more than 50% of a sphere. A simple experiment with a ball at sunrise/sunset will prove it.

Globe model fails clearly before everyone's eyes.

Also I believe globe grids by reality are curved like PHEW FE Map.
Accra to London cannot be northwards. If so (going northwards), you'll land at else where other than London.

Daytime is longer than 12 hours because the sunray's strength/intencity is able to illuminate more than 180° of delta longtude. It applies under flat earth model.

No matter how big it is, an extremely distanct light sourch cannot touch more than 50% of a sphere. A simple experiment with a ball at sunrise/sunset will prove it.

The Sun is not just a point source but has an angular size of about 0.53°.
That alone would mean that the top edge edge of the Sun would be visible for a couple of minutes more than 12 hours per day near the Equator.

Then atmospheric refraction near horizon adds a little more daylight.

Daytime is longer than 12 hours because the sunray's strength/intencity is able to illuminate more than 180° of delta longtude. It applies under flat earth model.

No matter how big it is, an extremely distanct light sourch cannot touch more than 50% of a sphere. A simple experiment with a ball at sunrise/sunset will prove it.

That's a ridiculous conclusion. A point source of light would illuminate exactly half of a sphere (in the absence of refraction). At least part of an extended source, like the sun, will be visible from more than half of a sphere. In the case of the sun with its apparent size of about 0.5°, at least part of it is visible for 0.25° beyond half, all the way around.

That extra 1/4 degree where direct sunlight fades out is going to be hard to discern on a ball illuminated by the sun at any time of day, much less sunrise or sunset when the contrast is lower.

Daytime is also not exactly 12 hours  It's 12 hours and 6 minutes.

Now what's your answer?

Add another 0.5° due to refraction to that 0.25°, and daylight (meaning any part of the sun is above the horizon) extends 3/4 degree beyond a hemisphere. That extra 0.75° adds an additional... wait for it... three minutes to the length of a day at each end. There's your 6 minutes.

Globe model fails clearly before everyone's eyes.

The globe model has no problems whatsoever with this. It explains the observations quite elegantly. You may think it fails, but that's because you're mistaken.