Escape velocity and Speed of light?

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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2020, 04:09:08 AM »
Hm, don't you agree that this American HERO Buzz Aldrin, second (LOL) on the Moon 1969, sounded like a drunken sailor, when he explained about pissing there. (There was no loo in his spacecraft!) So I consider all other people suggesting they have been in space to be Buzz clones. And now they are joined by astronomers suggesting they are taking pictures of celestial bodies (black holes) 50 million light years away. I simply suggest Katie made the photo herself pissing on Earth to become famous. I think she is not credible.

You do realize Ms. Bouman was part of a large effort, specifically experts from MITís Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, and the MIT Haystack Observatory? It was not just her musing in a dark basement playing with photoshop. There was a large team and actual science involved.

So your suggestion is unfounded and moot. It's not like you possess even the slightest bit of knowledge or expertise the folks involved have. You certainly don't have any credentials or credibility to even assess the effort, let alone claim it is fake. The best you have is fake based upon how you were unhappy with Buzz's demeanor when he talked about urination. You have a warped sense of reality and are completely bereft of logic.

No, I only know young Ms. Bouman. Her 100+ astronomer colleagues collecting data for her magic picture of a black hole in space are unknown to me. Media would not name them. It was only Ms. B that suddenly found the image in her computer. But there were other scientific comments.

I'm not following. You're saying Ms.Bouman is the only one who worked on the effort and then you go on to list people talking about working on the effort?

Re Buzz and his fondness of alcohol, I just quote media.

I think you're the one with the particular fondness for the drink considering you're making no sense in your ramblings about the black hole image.
You have to concentrate and not drink too much alcohol and study my findings.
This black hole image involved 100's of astronomers incl. some at the South Pole with their telescopes of all kind taking pictures of the Universe and the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away. Then plenty people tried to put these pictures together and ... MAGIC ... Ms. Bouman got the bits right. It was checked four times but it was Ms. Bouman that got it right. All alone.
She just added some missing pieces and ... a black hole appeared.

Checked four times?  Got a source for that?  All alone, just her?  Got a source for that?  A source other than wherever you pull your made up stories from?

It wasn't just her, there were 40 other women on the project too, and another 160 men.

"As Bouman herself was quick to point out, she was by no means solely responsible for the discovery, which was a result of a worldwide collaboration among scientists who worked together to create the image from a network of radio antennas.

The project, led by Shep Doeleman, an astronomer at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, was the work of more than 200 researchers. About 40 of them were women, according to Harvardís Black Hole Initiative. "



https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/how-katie-bouman-accidentally-became-the-face-of-the-black-hole-project-1.3858319
Yes, yes. Irish news. But it was Ms. Bouman that found or made the missing pieces so that a shadow of a black hole lit up from behind and ... bla, bla, bla, ... an image was created.
With such evidence in any court, you would not get very far.
Please, stop drinking.

You can find another dozen news articles about her involvement and how she became internet famous about it.

Here is one how internet trolls are attacking her.  Sound familiar?

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/13/18308652/katie-bouman-black-hole-science-internet

All you have, are insulting and ridiculing sources and the people involved.  That's it, your entire argument is you just making fun of people and making up lies about women. Just you and your made up stories.

You have zero evidence, just your inability to understand or accept anything. I'd love to see you in an actual court, you would be hauled off for contempt in about 30 seconds and wind up in a psychiatric hospital.

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markjo

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2020, 06:55:08 AM »
Yes, yes. Irish news. But it was Ms. Bouman that found or made the missing pieces so that a shadow of a black hole lit up from behind and ... bla, bla, bla, ... an image was created.
With such evidence in any court, you would not get very far.
Then it's a very good thing that you aren't a lawyer.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Stash

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2020, 01:22:45 PM »
Hm, don't you agree that this American HERO Buzz Aldrin, second (LOL) on the Moon 1969, sounded like a drunken sailor, when he explained about pissing there. (There was no loo in his spacecraft!) So I consider all other people suggesting they have been in space to be Buzz clones. And now they are joined by astronomers suggesting they are taking pictures of celestial bodies (black holes) 50 million light years away. I simply suggest Katie made the photo herself pissing on Earth to become famous. I think she is not credible.

You do realize Ms. Bouman was part of a large effort, specifically experts from MITís Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, and the MIT Haystack Observatory? It was not just her musing in a dark basement playing with photoshop. There was a large team and actual science involved.

So your suggestion is unfounded and moot. It's not like you possess even the slightest bit of knowledge or expertise the folks involved have. You certainly don't have any credentials or credibility to even assess the effort, let alone claim it is fake. The best you have is fake based upon how you were unhappy with Buzz's demeanor when he talked about urination. You have a warped sense of reality and are completely bereft of logic.

No, I only know young Ms. Bouman. Her 100+ astronomer colleagues collecting data for her magic picture of a black hole in space are unknown to me. Media would not name them. It was only Ms. B that suddenly found the image in her computer. But there were other scientific comments.

I'm not following. You're saying Ms.Bouman is the only one who worked on the effort and then you go on to list people talking about working on the effort?

Re Buzz and his fondness of alcohol, I just quote media.

I think you're the one with the particular fondness for the drink considering you're making no sense in your ramblings about the black hole image.
You have to concentrate and not drink too much alcohol and study my findings.
This black hole image involved 100's of astronomers incl. some at the South Pole with their telescopes of all kind taking pictures of the Universe and the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away. Then plenty people tried to put these pictures together and ... MAGIC ... Ms. Bouman got the bits right. It was checked four times but it was Ms. Bouman that got it right. All alone.
She just added some missing pieces and ... a black hole appeared.

If you don't understand something do you always assume it's fake? Seems to be a pattern for you. The epitome of Dunning-Kruger at full strength. And once again, you have your facts wrong and suggestions unfounded. Not to mention you're being ridiculous.

Case in point, your idiotic statement: "It was checked four times but it was Ms. Bouman that got it right. All alone. She just added some missing pieces and ... a black hole appeared."

You have literally no idea what you're even commenting on:

"Bouman led the development of a computer program called CHIRP, or Continuous High-resolution Image Reconstruction using Patch priors. CHIRP helps account for differences between when data arrived at telescopes in difference places on Earth, fill in gaps between the telescopes' coverage, and single out the black hole data from everything else in that patch of sky. The program made it possible to create the images which another program (designed by Mareki Honma and his team) stitched together into the final picture that awed everyone on April 10. Her CHIRP team was actually one of three teams working to turn the data into images -- a total of about 40 people, led by Bouman, Andrew Chael, Kazunori Akiyama, Michael D. Johnson, Jose L. Gomez, and Sara Issaoun.

Those 40 people spent several years working on just one aspect of a project which involved around 200 people from 60 research institutions in 18 countries. It turns out that combining 8 radio observatories around the world to make the next best thing to a 10,000 km-wide antenna, then processing all of that data into an image of the event horizon of a black hole 54 million light years away, is a big, complex, collaborative project."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kionasmith/2019/04/14/we-should-listen-to-katie-bouman-science-takes-teamwork/#4f7b6dee2034

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2020, 01:49:28 PM »
Topic is an image of a celestial object with a diameter of say 10 km which is 5.2 x 1020 km away (55 million light years) at the center of a galaxy in our Universe. 200 astronomers of multiple telescopes on Earth have taken plenty photos of this far away object but none have been published. It is suggested that the telescopes at different locations on Earth can jointly take photos of this object so that a composite image can be created using bits and pieces of available footage. Missing bits have also been added during several years. The final image is black (the background color of the Universe) with a hole with a black dot in the middle of the hole. The hole is illuminated. The rim of the hole is a shadow of some sort and the light is coming from somewhere. What the dot in the middle is, is not clear. It is suggested that celestial object in the image is a Black Hole. If you try to find out more of the history of this image, you are told that it just popped up on a computer screen of a poor girl part of the team. I just suggest the image is simple fakery and that the girl is a fraud. Reason I do it, is that I donít believe Black Holes exist in the Universe. I explain more at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravelb.htm
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 01:54:54 PM by Heiwa »

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Stash

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2020, 02:41:55 PM »
Topic is an image of a celestial object with a diameter of say 10 km which is 5.2 x 1020 km away (55 million light years) at the center of a galaxy in our Universe. 200 astronomers of multiple telescopes on Earth have taken plenty photos of this far away object but none have been published. It is suggested that the telescopes at different locations on Earth can jointly take photos of this object so that a composite image can be created using bits and pieces of available footage. Missing bits have also been added during several years. The final image is black (the background color of the Universe) with a hole with a black dot in the middle of the hole. The hole is illuminated. The rim of the hole is a shadow of some sort and the light is coming from somewhere. What the dot in the middle is, is not clear. It is suggested that celestial object in the image is a Black Hole. If you try to find out more of the history of this image, you are told that it just popped up on a computer screen of a poor girl part of the team. I just suggest the image is simple fakery and that the girl is a fraud. Reason I do it, is that I donít believe Black Holes exist in the Universe. I explain more at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravelb.htm

Again, you suggest the image is simple fakery and that the girl is a fraud, yet you have no knowledge of even the basics. You just make it up.

Case in point, you write, "Topic is an image of a celestial object with a diameter of say 10 km..." Right out of the gate you don't have any sense of the facts - Just fabricate whatever feels right to you and mosey on your way. The definition of ignorance.

"It measures 40 billion km across - three million times the size of the Earth"

That seems like a smidge larger than 10 km in diameter.

If you're going to make some claims, at a minimum, get right what you're making a claim against. You can't even get past the first sentence without lying.

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2020, 07:47:41 PM »
Topic is an image of a celestial object with a diameter of say 10 km which is 5.2 x 1020 km away (55 million light years) at the center of a galaxy in our Universe. 200 astronomers of multiple telescopes on Earth have taken plenty photos of this far away object but none have been published. It is suggested that the telescopes at different locations on Earth can jointly take photos of this object so that a composite image can be created using bits and pieces of available footage. Missing bits have also been added during several years. The final image is black (the background color of the Universe) with a hole with a black dot in the middle of the hole. The hole is illuminated. The rim of the hole is a shadow of some sort and the light is coming from somewhere. What the dot in the middle is, is not clear. It is suggested that celestial object in the image is a Black Hole. If you try to find out more of the history of this image, you are told that it just popped up on a computer screen of a poor girl part of the team. I just suggest the image is simple fakery and that the girl is a fraud. Reason I do it, is that I donít believe Black Holes exist in the Universe. I explain more at http://heiwaco.tripod.com/moontravelb.htm

Again, you suggest the image is simple fakery and that the girl is a fraud, yet you have no knowledge of even the basics. You just make it up.

Case in point, you write, "Topic is an image of a celestial object with a diameter of say 10 km..." Right out of the gate you don't have any sense of the facts - Just fabricate whatever feels right to you and mosey on your way. The definition of ignorance.

"It measures 40 billion km across - three million times the size of the Earth"

That seems like a smidge larger than 10 km in diameter.

If you're going to make some claims, at a minimum, get right what you're making a claim against. You can't even get past the first sentence without lying.
Well, there are plenty original footage of this big, strange object, we are told, so let's see part of it. I simply suggest it doesn't exist. Anyway, Black Holes are not 40 billion km across. Maybe it is a quasar?  A quasar is a compact (sic) region in vacuum space surrounding a super massive Black Hole and emitting enormous amounts of electromagnetic energy/light, as mass from the core of a surrounding galaxy. Under the influence of the Black Hole's gravity it  falls onto its accretion disc. Sounds magic. Let's see some photos of it!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 08:28:42 PM by Heiwa »

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markjo

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2020, 08:32:42 PM »
Well, there are plenty original footage of this big, strange object, we are told...
Who told you that?  As I understand it, the data was collected from a number of radio telescopes, not optical telescopes.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #127 on: June 30, 2020, 08:45:18 PM »
Anyway, Black Holes are not 40 billion km across.
How would YOU know the size of the super-massive M87 Black Hole? The size of a black hole is taken as the size of its event horizon.
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth
Pale Black Dot
On Wednesday, a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon of a black hole.

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2020, 10:36:39 PM »
Anyway, Black Holes are not 40 billion km across.
How would YOU know the size of the super-massive M87 Black Hole? The size of a black hole is taken as the size of its event horizon.
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth
Pale Black Dot
On Wednesday, a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon of a black hole.

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.

OK, so the celestial object observed by plenty astronomers on Earth at the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away from Earth is bigger than our Solar System (Sun + planets) and ... it is a Black Hole. Far away. No evidence of anything except a composite image. But there is another Black Hole much closer! At the center of our galaxy the Milky Way. Only 25000 light years away? 2200 times closer! But no photos of it are available. I wonder why. Any ideas?
Shouldn't we start exploring our own galaxy first?

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2020, 11:50:48 PM »
Anyway, Black Holes are not 40 billion km across.
How would YOU know the size of the super-massive M87 Black Hole? The size of a black hole is taken as the size of its event horizon.
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth
Pale Black Dot
On Wednesday, a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon of a black hole.

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.

OK, so the celestial object observed by plenty astronomers on Earth at the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away from Earth is bigger than our Solar System (Sun + planets) and ... it is a Black Hole. Far away. No evidence of anything except a composite image. But there is another Black Hole much closer! At the center of our galaxy the Milky Way. Only 25000 light years away? 2200 times closer! But no photos of it are available. I wonder why. Any ideas?
Shouldn't we start exploring our own galaxy first?
We are but Sag A* is far smaller with a mass of a bit over 4.1 ◊ 106 M (solar masses).

Not only that but Sag A*, being in our own Galaxy is hidden by stars and dust clouds around the Galactic centre.

Here's Why Scientists Did Not Take Image Of Sagittarius A*, Black Hole At The Heart Of Milky Way

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #130 on: July 01, 2020, 03:23:24 AM »
Ok, we discuss the super massive Messier 87 Black Hole. That Black Hole itself has a diameter of only 10 km but its gravity force is so strong that it cleans away everything within 37 billion km, the size of our Solar System. Of course you cannot see it or take a photo of it BUT due to MAGIC the vacuum void around it lights up and becomes visible. And photos can be taken! And according to Ms. K. Bouman:
 "We developed ways to generate synthetic data and used different algorithms and tested blindly to see if we can recover an image," she says. "We didn't want to just develop one algorithm. We wanted to develop many different algorithms that all have different assumptions built into them. If all of them recover the same general structure, then that builds your confidence."
This is 101% standard pseudoscience.
The NSF photo is 200 billion km from right to left, up down. Nothing else to be seen than a point in the center hole illuminated from Ö ? It is a composite of millions of photos taken from Earth.

Re the the Sagittarius A*, the Black Hole located in our Milky Way galaxy 25,000 light-years away from Earth, it is 2200 times closer, but it doesn't mean it's a better subject to photograph, we are told. There are too many cosmic objects in between the two with billions of stars, planets, and dust floating in the same flat disk of the Milky Way.
This is 102% pseudoscience.
But people on Earth believe it. Some are well paid to promote the propaganda and Ö I just laugh about them. They are like Mr. Buzz Aldrin, PhD MIT 1963 that invented the human space travel hoax. He arrived at the Moon summer 1969, pissed on it Ö and never had a real job since.
Ms. Bouman! Welcome to the pseudo science club of fame. It is a big hole of nobodies. Many become alcoholics. What else to do there?

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #131 on: July 01, 2020, 03:51:19 AM »
Ok, we discuss the super massive Messier 87 Black Hole. That Black Hole itself has a diameter of only 10 km but its gravity force is so strong that it cleans away everything within 37 billion km, the size of our Solar System.
The diameter of a black hole is taken as the diameter of its event horizon. There is no way that you can determine anything inside the event horizon.
Anyway, Black Holes are not 40 billion km across.
How would YOU know the size of the super-massive M87 Black Hole? The size of a black hole is taken as the size of its event horizon.
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth

Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.

Go and learn something about astronomy!

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #132 on: July 01, 2020, 04:29:57 AM »
Ok, we discuss the super massive Messier 87 Black Hole. That Black Hole itself has a diameter of only 10 km but its gravity force is so strong that it cleans away everything within 37 billion km, the size of our Solar System.
The diameter of a black hole is taken as the diameter of its event horizon. There is no way that you can determine anything inside the event horizon.
I understand that an event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. So I understand that nobody can measure the diameter of an event horizon from the inside!   
Question remains if you can do the measurement from the outside. You don't know what is inside.
Do you understand the problem?
My answer is simple. I explain it at my website.


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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #133 on: July 01, 2020, 04:47:22 AM »
Ok, we discuss the super massive Messier 87 Black Hole. That Black Hole itself has a diameter of only 10 km but its gravity force is so strong that it cleans away everything within 37 billion km, the size of our Solar System.
The diameter of a black hole is taken as the diameter of its event horizon. There is no way that you can determine anything inside the event horizon.
I understand that an event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. So I understand that nobody can measure the diameter of an event horizon from the inside!   
Question remains if you can do the measurement from the outside. You don't know what is inside.
Do you understand the problem?
My answer is simple. I explain it at my website.

No, we can actually measure such things.  You don't understand, that's the problem.

I've looked at your web page and it's explains things about as well as the Time Cube website, although with slightly less annoying fonts and colors. A big list of conspiracy theories is not very compelling in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence. And reality.

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #134 on: July 01, 2020, 05:07:26 AM »
Ok, we discuss the super massive Messier 87 Black Hole. That Black Hole itself has a diameter of only 10 km but its gravity force is so strong that it cleans away everything within 37 billion km, the size of our Solar System.
The diameter of a black hole is taken as the diameter of its event horizon. There is no way that you can determine anything inside the event horizon.
I understand that an event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. So I understand that nobody can measure the diameter of an event horizon from the inside!   
Question remains if you can do the measurement from the outside. You don't know what is inside.
The radius of the event horizon is The Schwarzschild Radius radius for that mass

I said, "There is no way that you can determine anything inside the event horizon" but the diameter of a black hole is taken as the diameter of its event horizon.

You don't get to determine how astronomical measurements are defined.

Quote from: Heiwa
Do you understand the problem?
I fail to see any problem!
Astronomers define the diameter of a black hole as the diameter of its event horizon - end of story.
If you think it should be different take it to the International Astronomical Union.

Quote from: Heiwa
My answer is simple. I explain it at my website.
Judging by what I've seen so far I wouldn't waste my time. Post it here or send it to the IAU if you think it's so wonderful.

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2020, 08:01:27 AM »

Astronomers define the diameter of a black hole as the diameter of its event horizon - end of story.


An event horizon according astronomers is a boundary beyond which events in the Universe cannot affect an observer.

Say that the event is a Black Hole in the Universe and that the Black Hole has an event horizon. So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.

Now some astronomers suggest that there is Black Hole in a far away galaxy and that its diameter is greater than our Solar System, i.e. it is pretty big. Same astronomers have taken 2D photos of it from Earth and the result is a composite of photos that has become the 2D image we have seen. A girl made the image using some fancy software.

The image itself shows something that is 10 times bigger than our Solar System. It is mostly Black with a Hole in the middle with a Black Dot in the Hole. The Hole is illuminated around the Dot. Outside of the Hole is black. No stars, etc, are seen. The diameter of the black Dot is bigger than our Solar System, I am told. I can see it on the image. The astronomers say the Dot is a Black Hole.

But where is the event horizon?

The volume of the Dot must be enormous BUT it is solid! And its gravity is big so the escape velocity from the Dot is greater than the speed of light. That is why the Dot is black. No light escapes.

It is MAGIC. But relax! God Allah Jahve made the Dot once upon a time.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 08:19:42 AM by Heiwa »

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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #136 on: July 01, 2020, 08:16:03 AM »
An event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. observer

Say that the event is a Black Hole and that the Black Hole has an event horizon. So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.

Your definition of an event horizon is wrong.  An event horizon is the point where the gravitational pull of a black hole prevents light from escaping.

A Black Hole certainly CAN affect an observer, it will still pull you inside.  That's quite an effect. You just can't see inside.

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #137 on: July 01, 2020, 08:32:20 AM »
An event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. observer

Say that the event is a Black Hole and that the Black Hole has an event horizon. So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.

Your definition of an event horizon is wrong.  An event horizon is the point where the gravitational pull of a black hole prevents light from escaping.

A Black Hole certainly CAN affect an observer, it will still pull you inside.  That's quite an effect. You just can't see inside.
Thanks. Question remains - where is the event horizon on the image? Around the black Dot in the Hole?

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markjo

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2020, 08:59:50 AM »
An event horizon is a boundary beyond which events cannot affect an observer. observer

Say that the event is a Black Hole and that the Black Hole has an event horizon. So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.

Your definition of an event horizon is wrong.  An event horizon is the point where the gravitational pull of a black hole prevents light from escaping.

A Black Hole certainly CAN affect an observer, it will still pull you inside.  That's quite an effect. You just can't see inside.
Thanks. Question remains - where is the event horizon on the image? Around the black Dot in the Hole?
No, the event horizon is the black dot in the middle of the accretion disc.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2020, 09:53:20 AM »

Astronomers define the diameter of a black hole as the diameter of its event horizon - end of story.


An event horizon according astronomers is a boundary beyond which events in the Universe cannot affect an observer.

Say that the event is a Black Hole in the Universe and that the Black Hole has an event horizon.
What on earth are you talking about?

Quote from: Heiwa
So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.
So what?

Quote from: Heiwa
Now some astronomers suggest that there is Black Hole in a far away galaxy and that its diameter is greater than our Solar System, i.e. it is pretty big. Same astronomers have taken 2D photos of it from Earth and the result is a composite of photos that has become the 2D image we have seen.
Nobody said any such thing! The data was collected on Radio Telescopes.

Quote from: Heiwa
A girl made the image using some fancy software.
No, a whole group of people.

Quote from: Heiwa
The image itself shows something that is 10 times bigger than our Solar System. It is mostly Black with a Hole in the middle with a Black Dot in the Hole. The Hole is illuminated around the Dot. Outside of the Hole is black. No stars, etc, are seen. The diameter of the black Dot is bigger than our Solar System, I am told. I can see it on the image. The astronomers say the Dot is a Black Hole.
Where did "The astronomers say the Dot is a Black Hole"?

Quote from: Heiwa
But where is the event horizon?
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth
Pale Black Dot
On Wednesday, a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon of a black hole.

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.
Note, "a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon".

The size of the event horizon is about where Voyager I is drawn in the image. You cannot see inside the event horizon.

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2020, 11:22:04 AM »

Astronomers define the diameter of a black hole as the diameter of its event horizon - end of story.


An event horizon according astronomers is a boundary beyond which events in the Universe cannot affect an observer.

Say that the event is a Black Hole in the Universe and that the Black Hole has an event horizon.
What on earth are you talking about?

Quote from: Heiwa
So beyond it, the Black Hole cannot affect an observer, i.e. any observer hasn't a clue what is inside this event horizon.
So what?

Quote from: Heiwa
Now some astronomers suggest that there is Black Hole in a far away galaxy and that its diameter is greater than our Solar System, i.e. it is pretty big. Same astronomers have taken 2D photos of it from Earth and the result is a composite of photos that has become the 2D image we have seen.
Nobody said any such thing! The data was collected on Radio Telescopes.

Quote from: Heiwa
A girl made the image using some fancy software.
No, a whole group of people.

Quote from: Heiwa
The image itself shows something that is 10 times bigger than our Solar System. It is mostly Black with a Hole in the middle with a Black Dot in the Hole. The Hole is illuminated around the Dot. Outside of the Hole is black. No stars, etc, are seen. The diameter of the black Dot is bigger than our Solar System, I am told. I can see it on the image. The astronomers say the Dot is a Black Hole.
Where did "The astronomers say the Dot is a Black Hole"?

Quote from: Heiwa
But where is the event horizon?
Quote
Hereís How Big the M87 Black Hole is Compared to the Earth
Pale Black Dot
On Wednesday, a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon of a black hole.

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Stellar Giant
The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Meanwhile, the Earth is just 7,917 miles in diameter ó meaning our planet wouldnít even be a drop in the bucket of the giant, black void. Based Futurismís calculations, it would take just over 2.98 million Earths lined up in a row to span the length of M87*.
Note, "a team of scientists from around the world released the first-ever directly-observed image of the event horizon".

The size of the event horizon is about where Voyager I is drawn in the image. You cannot see inside the event horizon.
Thanks. I cannot see the event horizon. There should also be a quasar close to the hole and outside the event horizon. I cannot see it either. I think the image is simple photoshop.
Re the black hole itself, it is pretty big and solid. What is the volume (m3) and mass (kg)? I know nobody can look into it but anyhow. You are such a genius knowing everything ....
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 11:38:28 AM by Heiwa »

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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2020, 11:59:41 AM »
Thanks. I cannot see the event horizon. There should also be a quasar close to the hole and outside the event horizon. I cannot see it either. I think the image is simple photoshop.
Re the black hole itself, it is pretty big and solid. What is the volume (m3) and mass (kg)? I know nobody can look into it but anyhow. You are such a genius knowing everything ....

No, you can't see the event horizon.   ::)

Do you even know what a quasar is?  Why do you think you should see one?  Do you just make things up as you type them?

You want the volume and mass, look it up.  Clearly us giving you the answers isn't helping, maybe if you read about some of these subjects you might learn something.

Photoshop. Right.  :-\

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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2020, 05:33:31 PM »

Do you even know what a quasar is?  Why do you think you should see one?  Do you just make things up as you type them?


Thanks for asking. I describe quasars at my website based on info provided by astronomers. They should be seen adjacent to Black Holes. See also - http://milesmathis.com/black4.pdf
"the most dishonest scientists love to hide out in data holes, where they can say whatever they wish and get famous for nothing". 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 06:18:42 PM by Heiwa »

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rabinoz

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2020, 05:44:10 PM »

Do you even know what a quasar is?  Why do you think you should see one?  Do you just make things up as you type them?


Thanks for asking. I describe quasars at my website based on info provided by astronomers. They should be seen adjacent to Black Holes.
Who says that quasars "should be seen adjacent to Black Holes"?
There is a black hole at the centre of every quasar but not every black hole has to have a quasar surrounding it.

But the topic is "Escape velocity and Speed of light".

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2020, 05:58:00 PM »

ireygursagj

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #145 on: July 02, 2020, 02:17:32 AM »

The black hole, M87*, is found within the constellation Virgo ó and as the webcomic XKCD illustrated, itís as big as our entire solar system.


Below is my post:

A radio telescope is pointed at the sky. It collects lights of long-wavelength or radio waves, which lie in the very specific part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Again, pls disregard this post unless unaware of the following.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=81861.msg2178004#msg2178004

We know light travels in a straight direction unless reflected. Let sun spread its light evenly in all directions. Earth receives a very small fraction of that sunlight as most of the sunlight is in the spacelike region (unable for us to see) and their direction of traveling keeps them away further in the spacelike region of lightcone - True. 

How do we see the full image of the sun when a very small portion of the sunlight (For simplicity, say circle of earthís diameter) reaches the earth?

The same is applied to the formation of the above image of the black hole. Lots of questions arise about the reception of light, their timing, covering an area in the space, etc via radio telescopes. 

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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #146 on: July 02, 2020, 03:44:59 AM »
We know light travels in a straight direction unless reflected. Let sun spread its light evenly in all directions. Earth receives a very small fraction of that sunlight as most of the sunlight is in the spacelike region (unable for us to see) and their direction of traveling keeps them away further in the spacelike region of lightcone - True. 

How do we see the full image of the sun when a very small portion of the sunlight (For simplicity, say circle of earthís diameter) reaches the earth?

The same is applied to the formation of the above image of the black hole. Lots of questions arise about the reception of light, their timing, covering an area in the space, etc via radio telescopes.

How do you see a light bulb, when only a tiny fraction of it's light reaches your eyes?

If you are standing 6 meters away from a light bulb, your 2mm iris is only receiving 1/100,000,000th of the light from that light bulb.  How do you see it?

Same way you see the Sun, both objects are bright, and our eyes can literally detect single photons.  They are very sensitive!

Also keep in mind how bright the Sun is.  It's emitting 10^45 photons a second. A small portion of that number is still very large!  Large enough that if you were to look directly at the sun, each eye would be receiving 18.61 quadrillion photons a second. More than enough to see it, and burn your retinas if you stare too long.

Radio and visual light telescopes work the same way, except they have an even better advantage that you can leave them running for hours or even days to collect enough light to make a picture. I've done long exposure pictures of nebula myself, so I know this works.

So there are no questions about being able to see objects.  A light bulb, the Sun, or a distant black hole.  It's just a matter of using sensitive enough equipment.

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markjo

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #147 on: July 02, 2020, 07:16:53 AM »
Not to mention the fact that you can link multiple radio telescopes all over the world to make one virtual telescope with a much larger "iris" to gather even more light.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Heiwa

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #148 on: July 02, 2020, 08:11:35 AM »
Not to mention the fact that you can link multiple radio telescopes all over the world to make one virtual telescope with a much larger "iris" to gather even more light.
How to link optical telescopes to work as a single device is nothing new. See https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-16869022 .
But I have my doubts about that technology to make an image of a celestial object at the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away. The object in question Ė an alleged black hole - has a diameter of our Solar system. The diameter of the Solar System is 180 AU or about 0.003 light years.
So an object with diameter 0.003 light years is 55 000 000 light years away. I doubt any telescopes on Earth can make an image of it.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 08:52:36 AM by Heiwa »

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JJA

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Re: Escape velocity and Speed of light?
« Reply #149 on: July 02, 2020, 10:08:17 AM »
Not to mention the fact that you can link multiple radio telescopes all over the world to make one virtual telescope with a much larger "iris" to gather even more light.
How to link optical telescopes to work as a single device is nothing new. See https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-16869022 .
But I have my doubts about that technology to make an image of a celestial object at the center of a galaxy 55 million light years away. The object in question Ė an alleged black hole - has a diameter of our Solar system. The diameter of the Solar System is 180 AU or about 0.003 light years.
So an object with diameter 0.003 light years is 55 000 000 light years away. I doubt any telescopes on Earth can make an image of it.

Radio telescopes, Heiwa. He said radio telescopes. Not optical.

Again, that picture is from linked radio telescopes, not optical.