# Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?

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#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2020, 05:08:51 AM »
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.
No, when I put my mind to it, a pull is the simplest explanation for most things and you need to go through so much mental gymnastics to avoid it.

If "pull" wasn't real, no material would have tensile strength. If you grabbed the 2 ends of a rope and tried to separate them, the rope would just fall apart.
Pull is impossible when looked at properly.
Everything is push.
Your separate ends of a rope are pushed taut, not pulled.

You just need to understand how your body is doing it.

There is no pull, only push.

That has to be one of the strangest concepts I've seen yet here, and I've debated about UA and EA.

How exactly DOES a rope stay together when you pull on both ends, if things can only push?
Try looking deeper into what's happening with the rope.
What are you doing when you supposedly pull?
Your muscles are all pushing the rope apart.
Start thinking how your muscles work in this scenario and you'll see there's no such thing as, pull. It's all  from a push.

#### JJA

• 6705
• Math is math!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2020, 05:31:21 AM »
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.
No, when I put my mind to it, a pull is the simplest explanation for most things and you need to go through so much mental gymnastics to avoid it.

If "pull" wasn't real, no material would have tensile strength. If you grabbed the 2 ends of a rope and tried to separate them, the rope would just fall apart.
Pull is impossible when looked at properly.
Everything is push.
Your separate ends of a rope are pushed taut, not pulled.

You just need to understand how your body is doing it.

There is no pull, only push.

That has to be one of the strangest concepts I've seen yet here, and I've debated about UA and EA.

How exactly DOES a rope stay together when you pull on both ends, if things can only push?
Try looking deeper into what's happening with the rope.
What are you doing when you supposedly pull?
Your muscles are all pushing the rope apart.
Start thinking how your muscles work in this scenario and you'll see there's no such thing as, pull. It's all  from a push.

When I pull on a rope my muscles contract, which pulls on my ligaments and joints.

You can't push a rope apart when you pull on it.  Do you know what 'push' and 'pull' mean?  Do you understand compressive vs tensile forces?

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2020, 05:41:24 AM »

When I pull on a rope my muscles contract, which pulls on my ligaments and joints.

You can't push a rope apart when you pull on it.  Do you know what 'push' and 'pull' mean?  Do you understand compressive vs tensile forces?
The fact your muscles contract should tell you all you need to know. They contract because they're pushed/squeezed.
That push continues throughout the effort to break the string/rope.
You push it apart.

Does a horse pull or push a cart?

#### JJA

• 6705
• Math is math!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2020, 06:21:01 AM »
When I pull on a rope my muscles contract, which pulls on my ligaments and joints.

You can't push a rope apart when you pull on it.  Do you know what 'push' and 'pull' mean?  Do you understand compressive vs tensile forces?
The fact your muscles contract should tell you all you need to know. They contract because they're pushed/squeezed.
That push continues throughout the effort to break the string/rope.
You push it apart.

Does a horse pull or push a cart?

Exactly what is pushing my muscle?  My muscle is the part that moves, are you claiming my bones and ligaments are actually squeezing my muscles? If something is being pushed, something else has to be pushing... what's pushing on my muscles?

You are making less and less sense with each post.

When you pull on a rope you pull on it.  I can't fathom how you are unable to understand this.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2020, 06:36:57 AM »
When I pull on a rope my muscles contract, which pulls on my ligaments and joints.

You can't push a rope apart when you pull on it.  Do you know what 'push' and 'pull' mean?  Do you understand compressive vs tensile forces?
The fact your muscles contract should tell you all you need to know. They contract because they're pushed/squeezed.
That push continues throughout the effort to break the string/rope.
You push it apart.

Does a horse pull or push a cart?

Exactly what is pushing my muscle?  My muscle is the part that moves, are you claiming my bones and ligaments are actually squeezing my muscles? If something is being pushed, something else has to be pushing... what's pushing on my muscles?

You are making less and less sense with each post.

When you pull on a rope you pull on it.  I can't fathom how you are unable to understand this.
Take a look at a JCB and see how that works then think about your body.
Now imagine a rope under your foot and your arm holding the other end.
To have any chance of stretching that rope you must push your foot into the ground and that takes a push of all muscles to do this that are aiding in that feat.

It only makes less sense if you refuse to look at it deeper.

?

#### Platonius21

• 742
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2020, 07:06:09 AM »
You are making less and less sense with each post.
You are trying to explain something to Scepti.  Why?

#### JJA

• 6705
• Math is math!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2020, 07:26:09 AM »
You are making less and less sense with each post.
You are trying to explain something to Scepti.  Why?

I thought I'd give it a try but you're right, it's pretty pointless.

#### JJA

• 6705
• Math is math!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2020, 07:27:40 AM »
When I pull on a rope my muscles contract, which pulls on my ligaments and joints.

You can't push a rope apart when you pull on it.  Do you know what 'push' and 'pull' mean?  Do you understand compressive vs tensile forces?
The fact your muscles contract should tell you all you need to know. They contract because they're pushed/squeezed.
That push continues throughout the effort to break the string/rope.
You push it apart.

Does a horse pull or push a cart?

Exactly what is pushing my muscle?  My muscle is the part that moves, are you claiming my bones and ligaments are actually squeezing my muscles? If something is being pushed, something else has to be pushing... what's pushing on my muscles?

You are making less and less sense with each post.

When you pull on a rope you pull on it.  I can't fathom how you are unable to understand this.
Take a look at a JCB and see how that works then think about your body.
Now imagine a rope under your foot and your arm holding the other end.
To have any chance of stretching that rope you must push your foot into the ground and that takes a push of all muscles to do this that are aiding in that feat.

It only makes less sense if you refuse to look at it deeper.

I'm going to just assume you're trolling at this point. You can't even stick to a simple example like two hands pulling a rope without bringing horses and feet into it. I hope one day you can, uh, push through this issue of yours, whatever it is.

?

#### Themightykabool

• 8364
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2020, 08:55:29 AM »
You are making less and less sense with each post.
You are trying to explain something to Scepti.  Why?

I thought I'd give it a try but you're right, it's pretty pointless.

First you have to speak scepinese.
He dossnt follow the conventional definition of things.
Dont expect push to mean push.

#### Amoranemix

• 35
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2020, 09:53:28 AM »
I fail to see the relevance of wether surface tension can curve the oceans.

Elsewhere I'm presently speaking to a globe proponent who's trying to tell me the oceans bend in the same way a drop of water bends. I need a succinct way of telling him why he's wrong in thinking that but TBH it's not absolutely clear to me. Which is why I'm here really.
Does that globe proponent not believe in gravity ?

If the oceans are curved; then that seems to imply the earth is round, not matter what is doing the curving.

Quote from: sceptimatic 30 to JJA
Try looking deeper into what's happening with the rope.
What are you doing when you supposedly pull?
Your muscles are all pushing the rope apart.
Start thinking how your muscles work in this scenario and you'll see there's no such thing as, pull. It's all  from a push.
Pulling on a rope means creating tensile stress or tension (i.e. negative pressure) in the rope. The means to achieve that may involve pushing. At the contact between the puller's hands and the rope there is probably shear stress.
In molecules electron clouds and atomic nuclei have an opposite charge. Physics tells us that there thus is an attractive force between them. In layman terms that can be described as them pulling on each other. Due to the shape of watermolecules in water that pulling force promotes the creation of hydrogen bonds, where the hydrogen atom of one molecule and the oxygen atom of another pull on each and hence tend to stick together. It is easy to find information online on how those hydrogen bonds create surface tension, which is a stress that tries to make the surface smaller. That also occurs in a vaccuum, which can't push.

?

#### Platonius21

• 742
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2020, 12:51:46 PM »
That also occurs in a vacuum, which can't push.
Oh No! Now you've gone and done it, saying a vacuum can't push! That's Scepti's favorite argument about why rockets can't work in space, because they have nothing to push against. OMG. This thread is doomed!

#### Timeisup

• 3283
• You still think that?
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2020, 03:09:05 PM »
Try basic science and find out what a covalent bond actually is. That should sort you out.

Covalent bonds are responsible for the formation of the water molecule itself, not for the inter-molecular attraction that causes the surface tension of liquid water, which is hydrogen bonding in this case. A hydrogen bond is the attraction between the negatively charged oxygen atom of one molecule with the positively charged hydrogen atom of another.

Hydrogen bonds are really cool and are the reason why water is one of the very few substances that is less dense in solid form that its liquid state. That's the reason water ice floats, why oceans freeze from the top rather than the bottom.

Good vid on surface tension here....

Well...to be pedantic, what I was taught, and I think it still holds good is that surface tension arises from the fact that water molecules have covalent bonds where they do that groovy electron sharing thing, which gives rise to the H end of the molecule being slightly +ve and the O end being ever so slightly -ve, resulting in the hydrogen bonding you mentioned .The molecules naturally joint together like tiny magnets......bingo surface tension. And you are most correct about the amazing properties water has as a result, making it quite unique. By rights it should actually be a gas at room temperature, but luckily for us it ain’t!.
What a laugh!!!

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2020, 11:35:39 PM »

I'm going to just assume you're trolling at this point. You can't even stick to a simple example like two hands pulling a rope without bringing horses and feet into it. I hope one day you can, uh, push through this issue of yours, whatever it is.
I use the horse, etc because you cannot get your head around the hands and how they work.
Think of the rope in each hand.
To pull, as you say, you have to grip the rope....right?
To grip the rope your muscles have to contract to grip, meaning push into the rope. To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way.
This can only happen if your shoulders push out and your elbows push out.

There is no reality of pull except the use of the word to describe something that APPEARS opposite to the reality of, PUSH.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2020, 11:38:42 PM »
I fail to see the relevance of wether surface tension can curve the oceans.

Elsewhere I'm presently speaking to a globe proponent who's trying to tell me the oceans bend in the same way a drop of water bends. I need a succinct way of telling him why he's wrong in thinking that but TBH it's not absolutely clear to me. Which is why I'm here really.
Does that globe proponent not believe in gravity ?

If the oceans are curved; then that seems to imply the earth is round, not matter what is doing the curving.

Quote from: sceptimatic 30 to JJA
Try looking deeper into what's happening with the rope.
What are you doing when you supposedly pull?
Your muscles are all pushing the rope apart.
Start thinking how your muscles work in this scenario and you'll see there's no such thing as, pull. It's all  from a push.
Pulling on a rope means creating tensile stress or tension (i.e. negative pressure) in the rope. The means to achieve that may involve pushing. At the contact between the puller's hands and the rope there is probably shear stress.
In molecules electron clouds and atomic nuclei have an opposite charge. Physics tells us that there thus is an attractive force between them. In layman terms that can be described as them pulling on each other. Due to the shape of watermolecules in water that pulling force promotes the creation of hydrogen bonds, where the hydrogen atom of one molecule and the oxygen atom of another pull on each and hence tend to stick together. It is easy to find information online on how those hydrogen bonds create surface tension, which is a stress that tries to make the surface smaller. That also occurs in a vaccuum, which can't push.
A vacuum does not exist but an extreme low pressure comes about due to a push, not a pull or a suck. Those two words do not exist in reality in terms of what they're told to mean. They exist only as easier explanations as to what people assume is happening.

#### Stash

• 12395
• I am car!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2020, 01:17:21 AM »

I'm going to just assume you're trolling at this point. You can't even stick to a simple example like two hands pulling a rope without bringing horses and feet into it. I hope one day you can, uh, push through this issue of yours, whatever it is.
I use the horse, etc because you cannot get your head around the hands and how they work.
Think of the rope in each hand.
To pull, as you say, you have to grip the rope....right?
To grip the rope your muscles have to contract to grip, meaning push into the rope. To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way.
This can only happen if your shoulders push out and your elbows push out.

There is no reality of pull except the use of the word to describe something that APPEARS opposite to the reality of, PUSH.

"To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way."

Let me get this straight. You're saying that when I pull on a rope, I'm actually pushing it? When I push on something it is moving away from me. When I pull on something, I'm bringing it closer to me. You're saying that I'm always 'pushing' things away from me?
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2020, 01:50:18 AM »
"To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way."

Let me get this straight. You're saying that when I pull on a rope, I'm actually pushing it?
No pull.
Quote from: Stash

When I push on something it is moving away from me.
Nope, it can be towards or away from you. It's still a push.
Quote from: Stash

When I pull on something, I'm bringing it closer to me.
Nope, there is no reality for pull.
Quote from: Stash

You're saying that I'm always 'pushing' things away from me?
Nope. I'm saying that you're always pushing anything......never pulling.

?

#### Themightykabool

• 8364
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2020, 02:01:35 AM »
Sceppy cant force diagram.
We are all talking about the tension in the rope.
Sceppy isnt.
The rope is attached to an anchor at some point.
And that anchor will be under compression.

#### Zaphod

• 137
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2020, 02:11:59 AM »

Well...to be pedantic, what I was taught, and I think it still holds good is that surface tension arises from the fact that water molecules have covalent bonds where they do that groovy electron sharing thing, which gives rise to the H end of the molecule being slightly +ve and the O end being ever so slightly -ve, resulting in the hydrogen bonding you mentioned .The molecules naturally joint together like tiny magnets......bingo surface tension. And you are most correct about the amazing properties water has as a result, making it quite unique. By rights it should actually be a gas at room temperature, but luckily for us it ain’t!.

Ah yes, that sounds familiar. I had to answer a short essay question in my "O" Level chemistry exam on hydrogen bonding and now, nearly 40 years later, terms like "polar covalent bond" and "electronegativity" are surfacing in my head again! From what I remember not all covalent bonds will produce strong polarity, but in the case of water it does due to the relative sizes of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Might go and re-visit some of this with a beer later.

Cheers

Z

#### Stash

• 12395
• I am car!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2020, 02:21:24 AM »
"To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way."

Let me get this straight. You're saying that when I pull on a rope, I'm actually pushing it?
No pull.
Quote from: Stash

When I push on something it is moving away from me.
Nope, it can be towards or away from you. It's still a push.
Quote from: Stash

When I pull on something, I'm bringing it closer to me.
Nope, there is no reality for pull.
Quote from: Stash

You're saying that I'm always 'pushing' things away from me?
Nope. I'm saying that you're always pushing anything......never pulling.

So all doors should say “push” regardless of whether they open inward or outward?
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

#### JJA

• 6705
• Math is math!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2020, 04:54:56 AM »
"To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way."

Let me get this straight. You're saying that when I pull on a rope, I'm actually pushing it?
No pull.
Quote from: Stash

When I push on something it is moving away from me.
Nope, it can be towards or away from you. It's still a push.
Quote from: Stash

When I pull on something, I'm bringing it closer to me.
Nope, there is no reality for pull.
Quote from: Stash

You're saying that I'm always 'pushing' things away from me?
Nope. I'm saying that you're always pushing anything......never pulling.

You can't push things closer to you, that's called pulling.  Do you truly believe that there are no such things as tensile forces? How does anything built not fall down?

I can imagine this attitude from someone in software development now.

"Hey can you issue a pull request for that latest GitHub change?"

"No pull! Only push! There is no reality for pull."

#### Amoranemix

• 35
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2020, 02:18:40 PM »
Quote from: sceptimatic 43
Quote from: Amoranemix 39
Pulling on a rope means creating tensile stress or tension (i.e. negative pressure) in the rope. The means to achieve that may in[quotevolve pushing. At the contact between the puller's hands and the rope there is probably shear stress.
In molecules electron clouds and atomic nuclei have an opposite charge. Physics tells us that there thus is an attractive force between them. In layman terms that can be described as them pulling on each other. Due to the shape of watermolecules in water that pulling force promotes the creation of hydrogen bonds, where the hydrogen atom of one molecule and the oxygen atom of another pull on each and hence tend to stick together. It is easy to find information online on how those hydrogen bonds create surface tension, which is a stress that tries to make the surface smaller. That also occurs in a vaccuum, which can't push.
A vacuum does not exist but an extreme low pressure comes about due to a push, not a pull or a suck.[1] Those two words do not exist in reality in terms of what they're told to mean.[2] They exist only as easier explanations as to what people assume is happening.
[1] Most people use the word vacuum for a volume that is close enough to a perfect vacuum.
So you claim that pushing is necessarily involved in the formation of a vacuum. I don't see why that would be, nor why that would be relevant. I was referring to the force applied by the vacuum (which is no force at all), not to any force involved in the vacuum's formation. Hence, no matter how gigahuge the gargantuan superpush forces are that create vacuums, the vacuums themselves still don't push.
[2] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

In the mean time,wether surface tension is caused by push of pull, the earth is still round.

#### Timeisup

• 3283
• You still think that?
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2020, 03:12:52 PM »

Well...to be pedantic, what I was taught, and I think it still holds good is that surface tension arises from the fact that water molecules have covalent bonds where they do that groovy electron sharing thing, which gives rise to the H end of the molecule being slightly +ve and the O end being ever so slightly -ve, resulting in the hydrogen bonding you mentioned .The molecules naturally joint together like tiny magnets......bingo surface tension. And you are most correct about the amazing properties water has as a result, making it quite unique. By rights it should actually be a gas at room temperature, but luckily for us it ain’t!.

Ah yes, that sounds familiar. I had to answer a short essay question in my "O" Level chemistry exam on hydrogen bonding and now, nearly 40 years later, terms like "polar covalent bond" and "electronegativity" are surfacing in my head again! From what I remember not all covalent bonds will produce strong polarity, but in the case of water it does due to the relative sizes of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms. Might go and re-visit some of this with a beer later.

Cheers

Z

Bloody hell were you that wee swotty  guy who sat in front of me in class?
A beer sounds a hell of a good idea. It’s funny but my knowledge of all that stuff also dates back to my o level chemistry!
What a laugh!!!

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2020, 11:42:03 PM »

So all doors should say “push” regardless of whether they open inward or outward?
No. We can happily use the terms to mark the viewed differences but the reality is, it's all push.

Let's take the door.
To open the door forward, you push.
To open the door towards you, you need to grip on something. A handle/knob.
For you to do this you must compress your muscles all the way to your hand grip or finger grip. Your fingers/hand/palm have to push against that handle/knob to open that door.

I'm well aware it appears to be a pull but the reality is, it's compressive force and a push.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2020, 11:43:37 PM »
"To stretch the rope your skin , muscles and bone has to push the rope away from you, either way."

Let me get this straight. You're saying that when I pull on a rope, I'm actually pushing it?
No pull.
Quote from: Stash

When I push on something it is moving away from me.
Nope, it can be towards or away from you. It's still a push.
Quote from: Stash

When I pull on something, I'm bringing it closer to me.
Nope, there is no reality for pull.
Quote from: Stash

You're saying that I'm always 'pushing' things away from me?
Nope. I'm saying that you're always pushing anything......never pulling.

You can't push things closer to you, that's called pulling.  Do you truly believe that there are no such things as tensile forces? How does anything built not fall down?

I can imagine this attitude from someone in software development now.

"Hey can you issue a pull request for that latest GitHub change?"

"No pull! Only push! There is no reality for pull."
Tensile forces are all compressive push, not pull.

#### Stash

• 12395
• I am car!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2020, 11:51:51 PM »

So all doors should say “push” regardless of whether they open inward or outward?
No. We can happily use the terms to mark the viewed differences but the reality is, it's all push.

Let's take the door.
To open the door forward, you push.
To open the door towards you, you need to grip on something. A handle/knob.
For you to do this you must compress your muscles all the way to your hand grip or finger grip. Your fingers/hand/palm have to push against that handle/knob to open that door.

I'm well aware it appears to be a pull but the reality is, it's compressive force and a push.

What does a compressing grip have to do with the fact that I'm pulling the door open, closer to me? I could compress my grip on the handle and push it as well.

Where I think you're going is that when I grip the handle to 'pull', my grip is actually around the backside, as it were, of the handle and is now 'pushing' the handle toward me.  But your argument is easily thwarted because I can just glue the end of a piece of rope to the front of the handle and 'pull' the door open. No backside push business involved? Right?
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

?

#### Themightykabool

• 8364
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2020, 12:21:56 AM »
Because he cant separate it.
The rope under tension.
He considers it all pne and the same, even though the objects are different.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2020, 12:26:03 AM »

[1] Most people use the word vacuum for a volume that is close enough to a perfect vacuum.

Use vacuum by all means as long as you accept it's simply lowered pressure and never a nothingness.

Quote from: Amoranemix
So you claim that pushing is necessarily involved in the formation of a vacuum. I don't see why that would be, nor why that would be relevant.
I was referring to the force applied by the vacuum (which is no force at all), not to any force involved in the vacuum's formation.
Take a chamber. You know it's full of atmosphere as an open container....right?
You know the atmosphere outside is basically equalised to the inside of that chamber. Nothing pushing out and nothing pushing in, as such. Just a overall set pressure which is a molecular push on push or push on resistance to push and vice versa.

Now seal the chamber and try to get atmosphere out of it.
You cannot suck it out. You cannot pull it out.
You have to somehow allow it to expand out by it's own pressure and to do this you must allow a lower pressure to come between the chamber and the outside atmosphere.
The only way to do this is to actually push back on the atmosphere to allow the expansion of the molecules inside of the chamber to push out into that lowered pressure to fill that lower pressure.

This is where the pump comes in to force back the atmosphere and to push out the expanding air inside the chamber into the atmosphere, which compresses the external atmosphere more whilst equally weakening the compressive strength of the internal air in the chamber due to that expansion.

The stronger the pump and the stronger the chamber, the more air can be pushed away externally and the more expansion of molecules can push into the resulting lower pressure created in the channel to the pump.

The air inside the chamber will become extremely low in pressure, meaning low in agitation, meaning the molecules become sort of dormant.

The chamber is still full but full by molecular expansion, meaning much less molecules, meaning much more compressed molecules now added externally.

Quote from: Amoranemix
Hence, no matter how gigahuge the gargantuan superpush forces are that create vacuums, the vacuums themselves still don't push.
Lowered pressure still pushes. It's still under compression, no matter how weak.

Quote from: Amoranemix
[2] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?

Observe a chamber and pump and items inside of it and put your thinking cap on, alternate to what you've been accustomed to.

In the mean time,wether surface tension is caused by push of pull, the earth is still round.
[/quote]Not that we walk upon, it isn't.

#### sceptimatic

• Flat Earth Scientist
• 28513
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #57 on: June 09, 2020, 12:30:59 AM »
What does a compressing grip have to do with the fact that I'm pulling the door open, closer to me? I could compress my grip on the handle and push it as well.
It's all push.

Quote from: Stash

Where I think you're going is that when I grip the handle to 'pull', my grip is actually around the backside, as it were, of the handle and is now 'pushing' the handle toward me.  But your argument is easily thwarted because I can just glue the end of a piece of rope to the front of the handle and 'pull' the door open. No backside push business involved? Right?
You're holding the rope just like you're gripping the handle. If you glue the rope to your palm and open the door you are still pushing your feet into the floor to enable you to open the door.
There's no way out of it. It's all compressive force, meaning, push.

#### Stash

• 12395
• I am car!
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #58 on: June 09, 2020, 01:05:16 AM »
What does a compressing grip have to do with the fact that I'm pulling the door open, closer to me? I could compress my grip on the handle and push it as well.
It's all push.

Quote from: Stash

Where I think you're going is that when I grip the handle to 'pull', my grip is actually around the backside, as it were, of the handle and is now 'pushing' the handle toward me.  But your argument is easily thwarted because I can just glue the end of a piece of rope to the front of the handle and 'pull' the door open. No backside push business involved? Right?
You're holding the rope just like you're gripping the handle. If you glue the rope to your palm and open the door you are still pushing your feet into the floor to enable you to open the door.
There's no way out of it. It's all compressive force, meaning, push.

No that example would make it a a push and a pull.
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

#### Amoranemix

• 35
##### Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2020, 02:53:54 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic 53
Tensile forces are all compressive push, not pull.
Can you prove that ?

Quote from: sceptimatic 56
Take a chamber. You know it's full of atmosphere as an open container....right?
You know the atmosphere outside is basically equalised to the inside of that chamber. Nothing pushing out and nothing pushing in, as such. Just a overall set pressure which is a molecular push on push or push on resistance to push and vice versa.
[ . . . ]
The chamber is still full but full by molecular expansion, meaning much less molecules, meaning much more compressed molecules now added externally.
What is the relevance of all of that ?
This thread is about whether surface tension can cause oceans to curve.
This forum is about the shape of the earth.
The behaviour of gasses in containers appears to have nothing to do with either.

Quote from: sceptimatic 56
Quote from: Amoranemix 49
Hence, no matter how gigahuge the gargantuan superpush forces are that create vacuums, the vacuums themselves still don't push.
Lowered pressure still pushes. It's still under compression, no matter how weak.
What evidence can you present that the pressure of a vacuum is enough to make oceans curve ?

Quote from: sceptimatic 56
Quote from: Amoranemix 49
[2] What evidence can you present to support that claim ?
Observe a chamber and pump and items inside of it and put your thinking cap on, alternate to what you've been accustomed to.
Sorry, but I don't understand your evidence. I got untill putting my thinking cap on, but do not understand the instruction that follows. Your evidence does not appear to support your claim.