Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?

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Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« on: June 02, 2020, 02:43:49 PM »
I've yet to come across a simple argument which counters this idea.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2020, 07:52:11 PM »
No.  Surface tension is too weak a force.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2020, 04:20:12 AM »
Do you know that for certain? Is there a way of proving it because if there isn't a way of showing how surface tension is too weak a force it can't be excluded as an explanation for the alleged curve. Just saying it's too weak a force isn't really enough of an argument. Elsewhere I'm presently speaking to a globe proponent who's trying to tell me the oceans bend in the same way a drop of water bends. I need a succinct way of telling him why he's wrong in thinking that but TBH it's not absolutely clear to me. Which is why I'm here really.

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JJA

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2020, 05:34:34 AM »
Do you know that for certain? Is there a way of proving it because if there isn't a way of showing how surface tension is too weak a force it can't be excluded as an explanation for the alleged curve. Just saying it's too weak a force isn't really enough of an argument. Elsewhere I'm presently speaking to a globe proponent who's trying to tell me the oceans bend in the same way a drop of water bends. I need a succinct way of telling him why he's wrong in thinking that but TBH it's not absolutely clear to me. Which is why I'm here really.

Surface tension is far too weak to hold the oceans to the surface of the Earth, that is correct.  You can show this easily by dipping any object in water and seeing how little sticks to it. Or turn a cup of water upside down (do this in a sink). Surface tension is a very weak force at large scales, and is only dangerous if you're an ant.

Gravity is what holds the oceans, and us, and the atmosphere to the Earth, and the moon in it's orbit. That's what he should be using to explain it, and what you would need to argue against.

I'm not sure why anyone would use surface tension instead of gravity. Your friend needs some physics lessons, maybe you could both take some online courses together. It's all very fascinating how everything works.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2020, 06:09:03 AM »
What in the hell is surface tension?

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Timeisup

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2020, 06:17:37 AM »
What in the hell is surface tension?

It's the thing you remove every time you squish washing up liquid into your washing up bowl.
Now I may be making some assumptions here like; do you actually know how to use crockery, eat with a knife and fork, or chopsticks, and need therefore to do washing up?

Strange question as its one of the earliest facts taught in elementary science....Water and its covalent bonds and all that jazz.

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Timeisup

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2020, 06:18:58 AM »
I've yet to come across a simple argument which counters this idea.

Try basic science and find out what a covalent bond actually is. That should sort you out.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2020, 06:21:45 AM »
What in the hell is surface tension?

It's the thing you remove every time you squish washing up liquid into your washing up bowl.
Now I may be making some assumptions here like; do you actually know how to use crockery, eat with a knife and fork, or chopsticks, and need therefore to do washing up?

Strange question as its one of the earliest facts taught in elementary science....Water and its covalent bonds and all that jazz.
So, what exactly is surface tension. Can you explain what it is?

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2020, 07:09:08 AM »
So, what exactly is surface tension. Can you explain what it is?
[/quote]
I can, but I have tried explaining something to you before. You can check it for  yourself:
 https://lmgtfy.com/?q=surface+tension+definition&s=l

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 02:19:09 PM »
In the absense of other forces, surface tension will make a collection of water into a sphere.
However if you add additional forces, such as gravity, they will likely dominate, except at the very small scale.

What in the hell is surface tension?
Surface tension is a property of all matter which tries to eliminate the surface, effectively reducing it in size as much as possible.
This results in an isolated object trying to adopt a spherical shape.

The one exception is the extremely rare case of negative surface tension which acts in the exact opposite way and tries to drive the matter to increase the size of the surface.

However as it isn't really just about surfaces, and instead is about interfaces, a better general word is interfacial tension.
This now recognises that you typically have something else in contact with the surface, and surface tension is typically referring to the interfacial tension of that substance with air, and that can be negative.

This explains why when you put a water droplet onto a hydrophobic surface, it beads up into little balls, and thus why some people treat surfaces to make them hydrophobic.
It also explains why on other surfaces, which are hydrophilic, the water appears to stick to it.

As for a full explanation, there is no point in giving it to you as it contradicts your fantasy so you would just reject it.

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Timeisup

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 02:45:30 PM »
What in the hell is surface tension?

It's the thing you remove every time you squish washing up liquid into your washing up bowl.
Now I may be making some assumptions here like; do you actually know how to use crockery, eat with a knife and fork, or chopsticks, and need therefore to do washing up?

Strange question as its one of the earliest facts taught in elementary science....Water and its covalent bonds and all that jazz.
So, what exactly is surface tension. Can you explain what it is?

Go ask a pond skater, they use it to walk on water. Or why not just look it up?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 02:48:20 PM »
Dear Timmy, this is a forum. Talking to other people about things is the entire point.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 08:29:57 AM »
In the absense of other forces, surface tension will make a collection of water into a sphere.
However if you add additional forces, such as gravity, they will likely dominate, except at the very small scale.

What in the hell is surface tension?
Surface tension is a property of all matter which tries to eliminate the surface, effectively reducing it in size as much as possible.
This results in an isolated object trying to adopt a spherical shape.

The one exception is the extremely rare case of negative surface tension which acts in the exact opposite way and tries to drive the matter to increase the size of the surface.

However as it isn't really just about surfaces, and instead is about interfaces, a better general word is interfacial tension.
This now recognises that you typically have something else in contact with the surface, and surface tension is typically referring to the interfacial tension of that substance with air, and that can be negative.

This explains why when you put a water droplet onto a hydrophobic surface, it beads up into little balls, and thus why some people treat surfaces to make them hydrophobic.
It also explains why on other surfaces, which are hydrophilic, the water appears to stick to it.

As for a full explanation, there is no point in giving it to you as it contradicts your fantasy so you would just reject it.
The words, surface tension...to me...means there is some kind of tension pushing onto a surface and that surface being a resistance to the push.
We know it can't be a pull, so what could that push be?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2020, 08:31:29 AM »


Go ask a pond skater, they use it to walk on water. Or why not just look it up?
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 08:49:05 AM »
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
I gave you what you need to read up and learn about surface tension. Read and learn.

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Macarios

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 09:39:31 AM »
Surface tension occurs in the surface film of the object.
The surface layer is tensed and tries to reduce its area by compressing the drop of the liquid into a sphere.
It could be visualised as the tension of a pumped up balloon that tries to compress back.
We can talk about surface tension in a non-liquid object, but I don't see any simple practical reason to do it.

Now, if you observe small drop of water, you can see it is compressed into a bead nearly ball shaped.
As the size gets bigger, the bead of water gets more flattened.
The surface tension is still keeping it together, but the water inside is heavier and at some point the surface tension is not stron enough to keep the water together.

The size of the drop where the surface tension is not strong enough is just at the level of a big drop.
That size is way too small to be compared with the quantity of water held on the Earth by gravity.

So, as we can see, surface tension is not strong enough to keep all the seas where are they now.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:57:32 AM by Macarios »
I don't have to fight about anything.
These things are not about me.
When one points facts out, they speak for themselves.
The main goal in all that is simplicity.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2020, 01:21:27 PM »
To be honest I'll get more sense from a pond skater that any user on this forum.
That brush is a bit too broad, don't you think?

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2020, 02:40:44 PM »
The words, surface tension...to me...means there is some kind of tension pushing onto a surface and that surface being a resistance to the push.
We know it can't be a pull, so what could that push be?
Probably because you don't understand what tension is and complete reject pulling.
Tension means it is being pulled.
This is why I said it is pointless explaining it to you considering just how much of reality you reject.
You reject the extremely simple phenomenon of "pulling" such as the interactions involving in holding together.

So no, we don't "know" it can't be a pull, you just baseless assert it can't be in your quest to reject reality.

What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
It spreads it's legs over the water such that in order for it to fall into the water, the water would need to create a lot of surface.
As surface tension acts to minimise the surface, this prevents the pond skater from falling into the surface.

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Timeisup

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2020, 11:01:39 PM »


Go ask a pond skater, they use it to walk on water. Or why not just look it up?
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.

Pond skaters use the existence of surface tension on water to make their way over the surface of a pond, as do a variety of other insects and even a few specially adapted birds.



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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2020, 11:40:38 PM »
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
I gave you what you need to read up and learn about surface tension. Read and learn.
How about you explain it or why post?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2020, 11:44:57 PM »
Surface tension occurs in the surface film of the object.
The surface layer is tensed and tries to reduce its area by compressing the drop of the liquid into a sphere.
It could be visualised as the tension of a pumped up balloon that tries to compress back.
We can talk about surface tension in a non-liquid object, but I don't see any simple practical reason to do it.

Now, if you observe small drop of water, you can see it is compressed into a bead nearly ball shaped.
Ass the size gets bigger, the bead of water gets more flattened.
The surface tension is stil keeping it together, but the water inside is heavier and at some point the surface tension is not stron enough to keep water together.

The size of the drop where the surface tension is not strong enough is just at the level of a big drop.
That size is way too small to be compared with the quantity of water held on the Earth by gravity.

So, as we can see, surface tension is not strong enough to keep all the seas where are they now.
In essence you're basically saying it's compressed air of atmosphere that keeps the droplet of water from falling apart, held by the solid resistance of a small part of the deck/floor/ground.

To be fair, surface tension makes no real sense. Surface resistance seems more appropriate.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2020, 11:47:57 PM »
The words, surface tension...to me...means there is some kind of tension pushing onto a surface and that surface being a resistance to the push.
We know it can't be a pull, so what could that push be?
Probably because you don't understand what tension is and complete reject pulling.
Tension means it is being pulled.
This is why I said it is pointless explaining it to you considering just how much of reality you reject.
You reject the extremely simple phenomenon of "pulling" such as the interactions involving in holding together.
So no, we don't "know" it can't be a pull, you just baseless assert it can't be in your quest to reject reality.
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.

What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
It spreads it's legs over the water such that in order for it to fall into the water, the water would need to create a lot of surface.
As surface tension acts to minimise the surface, this prevents the pond skater from falling into the surface.
So it's a push.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2020, 03:20:09 AM »
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.
No, when I put my mind to it, a pull is the simplest explanation for most things and you need to go through so much mental gymnastics to avoid it.

If "pull" wasn't real, no material would have tensile strength. If you grabbed the 2 ends of a rope and tried to separate them, the rope would just fall apart.

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2020, 07:25:58 AM »
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
I gave you what you need to read up and learn about surface tension. Read and learn.
How about you explain it or why post?
Like I said, I've tried explaining things to you before. I gave you what you need to learn about it if you want to learn.

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Zaphod

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2020, 07:58:57 AM »
Try basic science and find out what a covalent bond actually is. That should sort you out.

Covalent bonds are responsible for the formation of the water molecule itself, not for the inter-molecular attraction that causes the surface tension of liquid water, which is hydrogen bonding in this case. A hydrogen bond is the attraction between the negatively charged oxygen atom of one molecule with the positively charged hydrogen atom of another.

Hydrogen bonds are really cool and are the reason why water is one of the very few substances that is less dense in solid form that its liquid state. That's the reason water ice floats, why oceans freeze from the top rather than the bottom.

Good vid on surface tension here....


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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2020, 09:36:57 AM »
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.
No, when I put my mind to it, a pull is the simplest explanation for most things and you need to go through so much mental gymnastics to avoid it.

If "pull" wasn't real, no material would have tensile strength. If you grabbed the 2 ends of a rope and tried to separate them, the rope would just fall apart.
Pull is impossible when looked at properly.
Everything is push.
Your separate ends of a rope are pushed taut, not pulled.

You just need to understand how your body is doing it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2020, 09:38:51 AM »

Like I said, I've tried explaining things to you before. I gave you what you need to learn about it if you want to learn.
If you can't explain it then just say so.

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JJA

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2020, 11:08:37 AM »
There is no pull when you put your mind to it.
No, when I put my mind to it, a pull is the simplest explanation for most things and you need to go through so much mental gymnastics to avoid it.

If "pull" wasn't real, no material would have tensile strength. If you grabbed the 2 ends of a rope and tried to separate them, the rope would just fall apart.
Pull is impossible when looked at properly.
Everything is push.
Your separate ends of a rope are pushed taut, not pulled.

You just need to understand how your body is doing it.

There is no pull, only push.

That has to be one of the strangest concepts I've seen yet here, and I've debated about UA and EA.

How exactly DOES a rope stay together when you pull on both ends, if things can only push?

Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2020, 12:34:45 PM »

Like I said, I've tried explaining things to you before. I gave you what you need to learn about it if you want to learn.
If you can't explain it then just say so.
Oh I can explain it. Just not to you. Like when I tried to explain to you how rockets create thrust, and can therefore create thrust in vacuum.  I tried. But I could not explain to you. I gave up on trying to explain things to you.

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Timeisup

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Re: Surface tension explains how oceans can curve doesn't it?
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2020, 03:24:10 AM »
What does a pond skater do that shows surface tension and explain what that surface tension actually is, if you can.
I gave you what you need to read up and learn about surface tension. Read and learn.
How about you explain it or why post?

If you desperately need to know about a well known property of water go look it up. Though you could kick the explain game off by explaining how you see molecules as thatís not readily available on the web.