Murder of George Floyd

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Shifter

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #810 on: June 17, 2020, 10:17:18 PM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues. As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

They need more funding, not less.

You ever dealt with mentally ill people? Does an autistic guy having an episode really need a squad of armed police bashing down the door?

If a kid is skipping school do police resources really need to be tied up because of it?

Perhaps in Australia due to police generally not seeing the community as potential enemy combatants it might pass.... But in America? Totally the wrong guys for the job

That video I posted with the autistic guy holding a toy truck. First thought the cops had was that it was a gun. That is fucked up. They still shot the unarmed therapist who was on the ground with his hands in the air. FFS defund them so they aren't the guys called out next time

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Stash

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #811 on: June 18, 2020, 12:11:36 AM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

I did think about it and many others have as well. This is not new. Look at the CAHOOTS program in Eugene which is held up as the model and has been in place for 30 years. I'm not saying it could work everywhere, especially in a snap, but it could work a vast majority of places if implemented correctly.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

In my city, 850k+, unless someone is a direct harm to themselves or others, the cops can't force them to do anything. In our case here, we will have trained non-combative personal handle these issues. If the cops are needed they will be called. Just not first responders. Test and learn, we'll see how it goes and revise as warranted.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues.

I don't know if you live in a city, but here and the other major metro regions I've lived in, Homelessness, especially, police are the first responders. Absolutely. Same with school disputes. The calls all go into the police and the police respond.

As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Triage. Vectoring of incidents to the proper resources at point of contact. Again, this is not an overnight implementation. Lots and lots of work needs to be done to do this right. If someone is trespassing, that is breaking the law, a criminal offense and one dealt with by the police. If the homeless encampment on the side walk down the street from me is too loud, that's not a criminal offense - Today you call the police - Tomorrow your incident report is vectored to skilled, trained social workers to go see what's what.

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

None of them are. Mental health issues, the homeless, school discipline and neighbor disputes? What's to be investigated and none are investigated today because there's nothing to investigate. Again, if someone is committing or commits a crime, that's obviously a police matter.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

Again, if you violate the law, it's a police matter. Traffic accident investigations? I suppose those with the tools, knowledge, and expertise to investigate them. Right now, that's pretty much the cops. Do all traffic accidents require investigation?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

If you say so, but like I said, this is not new. I'm not sure these "traditional job" are that traditional and if they are, I think the reasons are worth looking at. Not just running away with one's hair on fire yelling, "There must be reasons!!!"

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

That's quite the extrapolation.

I think you're still not getting it. This is a release valve for many. Even the Police Union here is behind it. The vast majority of police calls that lead to first response by the police don't require the police and that is known when the incident is reported. But there's no one else to respond. By shuffling as much of that non-police stuff off to trained non-police responders with back up social services, it's a welcome relief.

They need more funding, not less.

That seems like the last thing we want to do. Just throwing more money at a system that needs a reassessment and serious reality check is nothing more than avoidance and we'll be having the same conversation in 10 years. It's time to look at alternatives and make some changes. It's called progress.

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Lorddave

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #812 on: June 18, 2020, 12:20:50 AM »
I'd like to note that unlimited funding for every police agency won't give you good cops.  It won't stop bad cops from doing bad things.  It won't make killing less, unless you can equip every officer with a suit of armor ala Iron Man.
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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #813 on: June 18, 2020, 02:48:36 AM »
Why not simply replace the entire police force with something else? Something like......I don't know....maybe an Iron Legion?    ;)
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Lorddave

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #814 on: June 18, 2020, 02:53:49 AM »
Why not simply replace the entire police force with something else? Something like......I don't know....maybe an Iron Legion?    ;)

Robocop all the way.
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #815 on: June 18, 2020, 06:24:40 AM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues. As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

They need more funding, not less.

Who cares about how loud noise complaints or whatever will be handled, these are ridiculously trivial issues that can usually be resolved much better without someone being arrested or the police stepping in anyways. It should be the LAST recourse. Are you sure it will wind up being investigated anyways? Because I really don't understand why that should be.

Traffic laws can be better enforced by upgrading traffic conductors etc. No need for police intervention in the vast majority of cases. Same with mentally ill people.

One issue is that cops are trained to handle stuff like gang wars etc, but they're called to address all sorts of other trivial stuff, and I guess a lot of them don't understand they're not supposed to address them the same way they would address a gang war. Police is a hammer, using it for everything makes everything a nail.

The police right now is not meeting requirements because these requirements are "don't murder people". Giving them more money will only give them fancier weapons to kill people.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 06:28:18 AM by Pezevenk »
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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #816 on: June 18, 2020, 08:13:13 AM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues. As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

They need more funding, not less.

Who cares about how loud noise complaints or whatever will be handled, these are ridiculously trivial issues that can usually be resolved much better without someone being arrested or the police stepping in anyways. It should be the LAST recourse. Are you sure it will wind up being investigated anyways? Because I really don't understand why that should be.

Traffic laws can be better enforced by upgrading traffic conductors etc. No need for police intervention in the vast majority of cases. Same with mentally ill people.

One issue is that cops are trained to handle stuff like gang wars etc, but they're called to address all sorts of other trivial stuff, and I guess a lot of them don't understand they're not supposed to address them the same way they would address a gang war. Police is a hammer, using it for everything makes everything a nail.

The police right now is not meeting requirements because these requirements are "don't murder people". Giving them more money will only give them fancier weapons to kill people.

Thereís a whole sliding scale  between noise complaints and gang warfare.  What do you do about regular theft, muggings, burglaries, domestic violence, bar fights, etc.  You do need someone with the legal authority and training to arrest people who may fight back.

One thing I think we have mostly  right in the UK (just for a change).  Having the police that most people deal with unarmed (except for sticks).  When guns are involved, they send in the properly trained response units. 

Of course that only works because the public are unarmed and most criminals donít even carry guns.  I donít see an easy way for the US unfortunately.

Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #817 on: June 18, 2020, 11:38:29 AM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues. As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

They need more funding, not less.

Who cares about how loud noise complaints or whatever will be handled, these are ridiculously trivial issues that can usually be resolved much better without someone being arrested or the police stepping in anyways. It should be the LAST recourse. Are you sure it will wind up being investigated anyways? Because I really don't understand why that should be.

Traffic laws can be better enforced by upgrading traffic conductors etc. No need for police intervention in the vast majority of cases. Same with mentally ill people.

One issue is that cops are trained to handle stuff like gang wars etc, but they're called to address all sorts of other trivial stuff, and I guess a lot of them don't understand they're not supposed to address them the same way they would address a gang war. Police is a hammer, using it for everything makes everything a nail.

The police right now is not meeting requirements because these requirements are "don't murder people". Giving them more money will only give them fancier weapons to kill people.

Thereís a whole sliding scale  between noise complaints and gang warfare.  What do you do about regular theft, muggings, burglaries, domestic violence, bar fights, etc.  You do need someone with the legal authority and training to arrest people who may fight back.

One thing I think we have mostly  right in the UK (just for a change).  Having the police that most people deal with unarmed (except for sticks).  When guns are involved, they send in the properly trained response units. 

Of course that only works because the public are unarmed and most criminals donít even carry guns.  I donít see an easy way for the US unfortunately.

They could, maybe -this I only an idea- adopt some kind of control on guns? Many of their problems stem from the fact anyone can be armed, so... Make them "not armed"?

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markjo

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #818 on: June 18, 2020, 12:20:32 PM »
They could, maybe -this I only an idea- adopt some kind of control on guns? Many of their problems stem from the fact anyone can be armed, so... Make them "not armed"?
Please try to keep up.  Many of the black people being murdered by police are not armed, so increased gun control wouldn't help that situation.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #819 on: June 18, 2020, 02:22:52 PM »
Stash, that all sounds great until you think about it.

Police get involved with mentally ill people because sometimes they have to use force to have a mentally ill person seen by a doctor and assessed. Police officers are vested with powers under legislation to help other professions.

Homelessness and school discipline are already not police issues. As for neighbour disputes, what kind of minor neighbour disputes will these professionals be mediating - noise complaints?

How will a non-police officer enforce laws on excessive noise or trespassing, or lewd conduct, or a myriad of other offences?

Everything you have said will wind up being investigated by police anyway.

Who will be enforcing traffic laws and investigating traffic accidents if police will only be trying to reduce crime?

These are all traditional police jobs for a reason. Defunding the police is defunding the police, and it's unworkable.

Less police will mean the police employed will be overworked and susceptible to stress leave, leaving less even police. Meanwhile, community expectations from their police will be met even less, leading to more distrust and more disrespect towards police.

They need more funding, not less.

Who cares about how loud noise complaints or whatever will be handled, these are ridiculously trivial issues that can usually be resolved much better without someone being arrested or the police stepping in anyways. It should be the LAST recourse. Are you sure it will wind up being investigated anyways? Because I really don't understand why that should be.

Traffic laws can be better enforced by upgrading traffic conductors etc. No need for police intervention in the vast majority of cases. Same with mentally ill people.

One issue is that cops are trained to handle stuff like gang wars etc, but they're called to address all sorts of other trivial stuff, and I guess a lot of them don't understand they're not supposed to address them the same way they would address a gang war. Police is a hammer, using it for everything makes everything a nail.

The police right now is not meeting requirements because these requirements are "don't murder people". Giving them more money will only give them fancier weapons to kill people.

Thereís a whole sliding scale  between noise complaints and gang warfare.  What do you do about regular theft, muggings, burglaries, domestic violence, bar fights, etc.  You do need someone with the legal authority and training to arrest people who may fight back.

One thing I think we have mostly  right in the UK (just for a change).  Having the police that most people deal with unarmed (except for sticks).  When guns are involved, they send in the properly trained response units. 

Of course that only works because the public are unarmed and most criminals donít even carry guns.  I donít see an easy way for the US unfortunately.

Υes, this is why no one here said you should just get rid of the police altogether straight away. Well, usually police doesn't do much for muggings or burglaries (other than pretending to investigate after the fact, in which case they fail to resolve the crime around 90% of the time) but yeah, for the other stuff you need to have some kind of police, although you can (and should) change the structure of that too.
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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #820 on: June 19, 2020, 03:07:03 AM »
They could, maybe -this I only an idea- adopt some kind of control on guns? Many of their problems stem from the fact anyone can be armed, so... Make them "not armed"?
Please try to keep up.  Many of the black people being murdered by police are not armed, so increased gun control wouldn't help that situation.
A majority of the people killed by police worldwide, regardless of color, are armed and/or have already committed some form of assault, necessitating the use of deadly force.

Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #821 on: June 19, 2020, 05:06:40 AM »
Please try to keep up.  Many of the black people being murdered by police are not armed, so increased gun control wouldn't help that situation.

My point was to de-arm the population so armed cops aren't needed for every minor thing. This would open the possibility of calling trained unarmed social workers.

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markjo

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #822 on: June 19, 2020, 12:41:32 PM »
They could, maybe -this I only an idea- adopt some kind of control on guns? Many of their problems stem from the fact anyone can be armed, so... Make them "not armed"?
Please try to keep up.  Many of the black people being murdered by police are not armed, so increased gun control wouldn't help that situation.
A majority of the people killed by police worldwide, regardless of color, are armed and/or have already committed some form of assault, necessitating the use of deadly force.
Fine, but this thread isn't about armed people being murdered by cops, is it?

Please try to keep up.  Many of the black people being murdered by police are not armed, so increased gun control wouldn't help that situation.

My point was to de-arm the population so armed cops aren't needed for every minor thing. This would open the possibility of calling trained unarmed social workers.
Just because someone doesn't have a gun doesn't mean that they can't be dangerous.  England is pretty much unarmed, yet they still have a good number of horrific violent crimes.
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17 November

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #823 on: June 20, 2020, 05:13:03 PM »
Defund the weapons buying part of the police and fund the training part so they can actually properly train them. And sort out the police union. I'm all for unions but not unions that let people literally get away with murder.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #824 on: June 25, 2020, 05:38:02 AM »
Apparently police killed a mentally ill Greek dude with tasers in Queens:
https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2020/06/25/zapantis-geroge-tased-death-nypd-police-brutality/

Some neighbor called to say he was armed (inside his own home). Is it illegal to be armed in your home now?? I thought America was all about being armed everywhere at all times. Also it appears that it wasn't even a gun, it was a sword.
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Shifter

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #825 on: June 25, 2020, 05:46:08 AM »
Apparently police killed a mentally ill Greek dude with tasers in Queens:
https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2020/06/25/zapantis-geroge-tased-death-nypd-police-brutality/

Some neighbor called to say he was armed (inside his own home). Is it illegal to be armed in your home now?? I thought America was all about being armed everywhere at all times. Also it appears that it wasn't even a gun, it was a sword.

Hopefully the guy that called the police gets in a shitload of trouble too. You shouldn't be able to lie to the police to get them to arrest and beat people you dont like.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #826 on: June 25, 2020, 05:57:52 AM »
Apparently police killed a mentally ill Greek dude with tasers in Queens:
https://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2020/06/25/zapantis-geroge-tased-death-nypd-police-brutality/

Some neighbor called to say he was armed (inside his own home). Is it illegal to be armed in your home now?? I thought America was all about being armed everywhere at all times. Also it appears that it wasn't even a gun, it was a sword.

Hopefully the guy that called the police gets in a shitload of trouble too. You shouldn't be able to lie to the police to get them to arrest and beat people you dont like.

Yeah, like, wtf, does whoever did this think the police is their private army or something?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #827 on: June 25, 2020, 07:41:42 AM »
Since the 80s the US has defunded mental health services, now if you think someone is having an episode, like going to hurt themselves, you have no one to call but 911. They send out the police who are not well trained to deal with mental illness.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Shifter

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #828 on: June 25, 2020, 07:47:12 AM »
Since the 80s the US has defunded mental health services, now if you think someone is having an episode, like going to hurt themselves, you have no one to call but 911. They send out the police who are not well trained to deal with mental illness.

Except in this instance, the guy who called the cops has a history of bullying this guy

Quote
Zapantisís mother Athanasia Zapantis said a neighbor who called 911 had a history of harassing her son, and that the neighbor was clapping and shouted ďBravoĒ as police Tased and arrested Zapantis.

This guy didn't call the cops out of concern for his welfare it seems.

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #829 on: June 25, 2020, 07:49:05 AM »
Still, if the police (or some other agency) were trained to deal with people who have issues, maybe they wouldn't have tasered him to death.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #830 on: June 25, 2020, 05:34:14 PM »
I take exception to the idea of some people, that social workers would be better suited to dealing with a mentally ill person armed with a samurai sword, than Police. Unless you have been a police officer, and walked a mile in a police officer's shoes, you have no idea how difficult a job it can be.

So, here we have a situation where a taser was used. One week a taser is deemed a use of lethal force, and the next it isn't. So, what is it this week?

When the police were trying to handcuff the drunk dude in Atlanta and he made off with one of their tasers, he aimed and pointed it at the police and fired it. Did anybody stop to think for a second, the pointing of the taser and the sound of the taser deployment  led the shooting officer to reasonably think he was being fired at with a gun?

Even if he knew it was a taser, if deemed a lethal weapon, wasn't he fired at with a lethal weapon? What do you think the guy would do if he managed to taser a cop and then get hold of his service weapon? Fuck him. He's dead and good riddance to trash. I feel sorry for the police officer who has to wait in jail for his matter to be heard in court.

Back to the guy with the samurai sword. Is a taser a use of lethal force option on this occasion? Regardless if it is, when a police officer tells you to drop the weapon, or the sword, you respect the badge, and you fucking do what he says.

That way, you don't get tasered or shot or injured or killed, and the police officer doesn't get an arm cut off or die from being slashed to pieces!

It was likely not a situation where the police could tactically retreat and wait for police negotiators. It's sad he died from being tasered, but what are police supposed to do? Walk away from an mentally ill man threatening to kill people with a samurai sword? Please!!

The number of people killed worldwide by police is absolutely negligible compared to the number of arrests they make, and the times they have to use physical force on a person.

By the way, being tasered hurts like hell! Worst and longest five seconds of pain I've ever had, outside the dentist's chair!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 05:42:43 PM by Smoke Machine »

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Stash

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #831 on: June 25, 2020, 05:54:02 PM »
I take exception to the idea of some people, that social workers would be better suited to dealing with a mentally ill person armed with a samurai sword, than Police. Unless you have been a police officer, and walked a mile in a police officer's shoes, you have no idea how difficult a job it can be.

So, here we have a situation where a taser was used. One week a taser is deemed a use of lethal force, and the next it isn't. So, what is it this week?

When the police were trying to handcuff the drunk dude in Atlanta and he made off with one of their tasers, he aimed and pointed it at the police and fired it. Did anybody stop to think for a second, the pointing of the taser and the sound of the taser deployment  led the shooting officer to reasonably think he was being fired at with a gun?

Even if he knew it was a taser, if deemed a lethal weapon, wasn't he fired at with a lethal weapon? What do you think the guy would do if he managed to taser a cop and then get hold of his service weapon? Fuck him. He's dead and good riddance to trash. I feel sorry for the police officer who has to wait in jail for his matter to be heard in court.

Back to the guy with the samurai sword. Is a taser a use of lethal force option on this occasion? Regardless if it is, when a police officer tells you to drop the weapon, or the sword, you respect the badge, and you fucking do what he says.

That way, you don't get tasered or shot or injured or killed, and the police officer doesn't get an arm cut off or die from being slashed to pieces!

It was likely not a situation where the police could tactically retreat and wait for police negotiators. It's sad he died from being tasered, but what are police supposed to do? Walk away from an mentally ill man threatening to kill people with a samurai sword? Please!!

The number of people killed worldwide by police is absolutely negligible compared to the number of arrests they make, and the times they have to use physical force on a person.

By the way, being tasered hurts like hell! Worst and longest five seconds of pain I've ever had, outside the dentist's chair!

I think a guy with a samauri sword is more of a police/public safety matter. Someone brandishing a weapon, mentally ill or not, at a minimum, would need police support.

Now, more importantly, tell us more about: "By the way, being tasered hurts like hell! Worst and longest five seconds of pain I've ever had..."

Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #832 on: June 26, 2020, 12:21:52 AM »
I take exception to the idea of some people, that social workers would be better suited to dealing with a mentally ill person armed with a samurai sword, than Police. Unless you have been a police officer, and walked a mile in a police officer's shoes, you have no idea how difficult a job it can be.

So, here we have a situation where a taser was used. One week a taser is deemed a use of lethal force, and the next it isn't. So, what is it this week?

When the police were trying to handcuff the drunk dude in Atlanta and he made off with one of their tasers, he aimed and pointed it at the police and fired it. Did anybody stop to think for a second, the pointing of the taser and the sound of the taser deployment  led the shooting officer to reasonably think he was being fired at with a gun?

Even if he knew it was a taser, if deemed a lethal weapon, wasn't he fired at with a lethal weapon? What do you think the guy would do if he managed to taser a cop and then get hold of his service weapon? Fuck him. He's dead and good riddance to trash. I feel sorry for the police officer who has to wait in jail for his matter to be heard in court.

Back to the guy with the samurai sword. Is a taser a use of lethal force option on this occasion? Regardless if it is, when a police officer tells you to drop the weapon, or the sword, you respect the badge, and you fucking do what he says.

That way, you don't get tasered or shot or injured or killed, and the police officer doesn't get an arm cut off or die from being slashed to pieces!

It was likely not a situation where the police could tactically retreat and wait for police negotiators. It's sad he died from being tasered, but what are police supposed to do? Walk away from an mentally ill man threatening to kill people with a samurai sword? Please!!

The number of people killed worldwide by police is absolutely negligible compared to the number of arrests they make, and the times they have to use physical force on a person.

By the way, being tasered hurts like hell! Worst and longest five seconds of pain I've ever had, outside the dentist's chair!

You feel sorry for a man that shot another in the back?

Aside from that, the guy with the sword was at his home, not bothering anyone. There was no reason for the cops to be there, and had been called by his neighbour only to harass him.

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Shifter

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #833 on: June 26, 2020, 02:42:08 AM »
What's to tell, Stash?  ;)

I'm sure I'm not the only one here to have been tasered?  :D  It causes your muscles over your entire body to lock up, and all you can do is scream in pain. No matter how hard you try, you can't move your arms or legs either.

How about why the boys in blue, decided to taser you!

Also, I have never run into trouble with the law. It's how I roll  8)

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JJA

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #834 on: June 26, 2020, 05:56:04 AM »
I take exception to the idea of some people, that social workers would be better suited to dealing with a mentally ill person armed with a samurai sword, than Police. Unless you have been a police officer, and walked a mile in a police officer's shoes, you have no idea how difficult a job it can be.

My Dad was a social worker for 40 years.  He's gone to deal with mentally ill people all the time.  He's been in danger, been attacked, suffered injuries.

And after all that if he got called to the house of some guy with a sword, he would go in and try and talk to them before calling the police, because once you make that call, things often go quite badly.  The police aren't trained for these kinds of situations, they just come in with force and yelling.

So walk a mile in a social workers shoes before you just dismiss what social workers do, their dedication and yes years of training.

And yes, I have family members that are police officers too. They would be the first to tell you who is better at handling mentally ill people.

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JJA

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #835 on: June 26, 2020, 09:24:07 AM »
I disagree, JJA. There are many situations involving violent mentally ill people including suicidal people, which simply are inappropriate for a social worker to deal with.

To send a social worker in cold with a mentally ill person suffering an episode with a sword, is idiotic if not suicidal. Being mentally ill is a broad term, and you can't talk some mentally ill people into cooperating, and that's when force has to be used. Social workers are not equipped to use force. Social workers are fine to deal with mild to moderate mentally ill cases, but not the dangerous ones.

Well, there's three ways you can get tasered, shifter, and I don't mean by a shitty homemade taser. I mean by a proper  manufactured taser.

The first is the unlawful way by someone who is illegally in possession of a taser, and uses it on you. The second is the first lawful way by police using it on you because you are being bad. The third is the second lawful way, by being trained in the use of a taser and experiencing it first hand.

You can disagree all your want, but you are shifting the goalposts here.

You said a guy with a sword, now you are saying a VIOLENT guy with a sword.

Most social workers I know would not hesitate to talk to some guy holding a sword. They work those jobs because they want to help others, and many of them risk their safety every day.  Just like police officers.

And suicidal people? That's EXACTLY who they are trained to help.

Now if some guy is standing over a bloody corpse then they will likely call the police, but still, depending on the situation they still might try and talk them down. But that's no different than any situation where violence is involved and you have to decide to flee or help.

And remember, just because someone is mentally ill doesn't mean they are violent. The vast majority are not.

Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #836 on: June 26, 2020, 06:02:13 PM »
JJA, I'm not shifting the goalposts at all.

In your world, do you not deem a sword, a weapon? Is a sword not a form of knife?  ???

You and I don't know what kind of sword it was or how sharp it was. But, having a friend who collects antique swords and keeps them razor sharp to the point just touching the edge the wrong way can draw blood, I would categorize a sword as a potential dangerous weapon.

In your world, do you not accept that mentally ill people these days, are more often than not, medicated, with some medications carrying extreme and unpredictable side effects? Again, we don't know those details, or the man's history with police and mental illness, but it's all relevant, and can raise the danger stakes.

I'm not saying social workers and health professionals don't have their place in dealing with the mentally ill, ofcourse they do. I'm saying they are not equipped to deal with dangerous situations, so why expose people to unnecessary risk? A workplace injury can have you off work for months, a lethal injury - dead.

What's more, is some, not all, mentally ill people, also gravitate towards self medicating with illicit drugs and/or alcohol.

Are you starting to see a dangerous situation developing here, yet, JJA?

Do you know how fast a man with a knife or sword can rush a person in a confined space and attack? One of the police should have at least had their gun drawn. How were they to know he had underlying heart problems?

A lot of things can go to shit in those situations.

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boydster

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #837 on: June 26, 2020, 06:37:54 PM »
Kitchen knives can be just as sharp. Should I call the cops on my neighbors when they are chopping onions? I mean, really, sometimes being a nosy and intrusive neighbor is the bigger crime.

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Lorddave

  • 16565
Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #838 on: June 26, 2020, 09:23:08 PM »
Smoke, is your only argument "Cops are allowed to kill people"?  Because thats what it sounds like.  Need to deal with a potentially violent person?  Call a cop because they can legally kill them. 

Like, why can't a social worker deal with a sword or gun wielding mentally ill person?  Is it because a social worker won't shoot to kill immediately?  Because that seems like a crappy mindset to have.

"They have a deadly weapon and are mentally unstable: best to just kill them."
I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Crouton

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Re: Murder of George Floyd
« Reply #839 on: June 26, 2020, 11:24:09 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/william-barr-task-force-anti-government-extremists-antifa-boogaloo/2020/06/26/138f424e-b7bf-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html

I am so relieved that the AG has finally started a task force to combat whatever an anti government extremist. I'm sure the term is extremely well defined and I can't think of any possible way that this can be abused.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
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