Murder of George Floyd

Nothing's going to change until it's possible to actually fire the bad cops.  And that's impossible to do because of the police unions.

This sensitivity training is just a piece of theater to convince us that something's being done.

Nothing's going to change until it's possible to actually fire the bad cops.  And that's impossible to do because of the police unions.

This sensitivity training is just a piece of theater to convince us that something's being done.

Umm, four bad cops were fired a couple of weeks ago...Bad cops are removed often.

Not sensitivity training, skills training. Simulation training like what is used in Australia. These American police are lacking skills, not sensitivity.

Quote from: Crouton on June 14, 2020, 09:55:07 PM

Nothing's going to change until it's possible to actually fire the bad cops.  And that's impossible to do because of the police unions.

This sensitivity training is just a piece of theater to convince us that something's being done.

Umm, four bad cops were fired a couple of weeks ago...Bad cops are removed often.

Not sensitivity training, skills training. Simulation training like what is used in Australia. These American police are lacking skills, not sensitivity.

Four bad cops were fired after half the country marched and started breaking things.

A few other ones were fired for clear examples of police brutality during the protests.

Not sure how closely you follow the news here and I wish I could find the exact numbers but the number of cops fired during these protests for beating up protesters is dwarfed by the numbers of cops that resigned in protest because of the cops that were fired.

That is batshit insane.  Can you imagine this behavior in any other line of work? 

Here's an analogy.  Suppose a mcdonalds you went to had a cook that spit in the food.  He keeps doing this for years.  We complain and nothing ever happens.  One day somebody gets really sick from this.  The customers nearly burn down the mcdonalds so the employee is put on administrative leave pending investigation.  But then his coworkers feel spited by that so they either quit or just do their job very slowly.

Here's an analogy.  Suppose a mcdonalds you went to had a cook that spit in the food.  He keeps doing this for years.  We complain and nothing ever happens.  One day somebody gets really sick from this.  The customers nearly burn down the mcdonalds so the employee is put on administrative leave pending investigation.  But then his coworkers feel spited by that so they either quit or just do their job very slowly.

In your analogy, you need to add that many of the coworker have a fetish for spitting in customers food. Only they have not gotten caught doing it.

Quote from: Crouton on June 14, 2020, 09:55:07 PM

Nothing's going to change until it's possible to actually fire the bad cops.  And that's impossible to do because of the police unions.

This sensitivity training is just a piece of theater to convince us that something's being done.

Umm, four bad cops were fired a couple of weeks ago...Bad cops are removed often.

Not sensitivity training, skills training. Simulation training like what is used in Australia. These American police are lacking skills, not sensitivity.

As far as history is concerned, those 4 cops would not have been fired and most definitely not arrested if the public wasn't as outraged as they are

The 2 cops that pushed over the old guy would not have been fired and the guy that shot the black man running away would not have been fired and the police head resign if not for the current climate

American cops are messed up

Saw one video of a black guy trying to calm down an autistic person in his care. He was on the ground, both hands up, telling the police the situation in a professional manner and he got shot

When he cried out 'why did you shoot me?' the cop replied 'I don't know'

Seriously WTF is wrong with them?



They did arrest that SOB though. Not sure if like most of the time he walked free in the end though

I've gotta say, the best thing president Trump has said in response to George Floyd, the riots, and protests, is he aims to bring in National standardised police training across America. That is evidence he recognizes the true problem with his Police - not racists, but rife incompetence.

Are you really going to deny that racism is a problem?

Training wouldn't have saved George Floyd. What training do you think they lacked? They didn't have a 2 day course on why it's wrong to murder someone?

For Gods sake, if you need 'training' to learn not to kneel on someones neck while they beg for their life and die, you shouldn't be a police officer in the first place.

The problems go far deeper than a little training is going to fix.

Another shining example here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Pretty sure every country has at least some problems with police, but seriously wtf is wrong with so many in the US?  Are they actually trying to start riots?

Edit:  Seems I’m now using the exact same phrasing as Shifter. That’s disconcerting.

Another shining example here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Pretty sure every country has at least some problems with police, but seriously wtf is wrong with so many in the US?  Are they actually trying to start riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

yes

Quote from: Smoke machine police on June 14, 2020, 09:07:42 PM

I've gotta say, the best thing president Trump has said in response to George Floyd, the riots, and protests, is he aims to bring in National standardised police training across America. That is evidence he recognizes the true problem with his Police - not racists, but rife incompetence.

Are you really going to deny that racism is a problem?

Training wouldn't have saved George Floyd. What training do you think they lacked? They didn't have a 2 day course on why it's wrong to murder someone?

For Gods sake, if you need 'training' to learn not to kneel on someones neck while they beg for their life and die, you shouldn't be a police officer in the first place.

The problems go far deeper than a little training is going to fix.

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

At issue is the way police business is conducted on a daily basis.

Since the removal of walking beats in major urban areas, violent crime has seen an increase and the formation of working relationships with the community has declined.

A community that supports a "snitches get stitches," approach to moral creed will get exactly what is deserved in their community.

Hence, South side of Chicago and South Central LA.

Quote from: Unconvinced on June 15, 2020, 06:54:26 AM

Another shining example here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Pretty sure every country has at least some problems with police, but seriously wtf is wrong with so many in the US?  Are they actually trying to start riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

yes

Yeah, I’ve heard of it, but never sure I believed it was deliberate incitement of violence.  More just aggressive and counterproductive incompetence.

Quote from: JJA on June 15, 2020, 04:16:24 AM

Quote from: Smoke machine police on June 14, 2020, 09:07:42 PM

I've gotta say, the best thing president Trump has said in response to George Floyd, the riots, and protests, is he aims to bring in National standardised police training across America. That is evidence he recognizes the true problem with his Police - not racists, but rife incompetence.

Are you really going to deny that racism is a problem?

Training wouldn't have saved George Floyd. What training do you think they lacked? They didn't have a 2 day course on why it's wrong to murder someone?

For Gods sake, if you need 'training' to learn not to kneel on someones neck while they beg for their life and die, you shouldn't be a police officer in the first place.

The problems go far deeper than a little training is going to fix.

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

At issue is the way police business is conducted on a daily basis.

Since the removal of walking beats in major urban areas, violent crime has seen an increase and the formation of working relationships with the community has declined.

A community that supports a "snitches get stitches," approach to moral creed will get exactly what is deserved in their community.

Hence, South side of Chicago and South Central LA.

What a sick joke.

You want to claim that all police racism is down to individual choice, but think entire communities “get what they deserve”.

You can’t have it both ways.

It must be horrible to live in fear of both criminals and the people who are supposed to protect them.  Not that you give a shit.

Quote from: Crouton on June 15, 2020, 06:58:09 AM

Quote from: Unconvinced on June 15, 2020, 06:54:26 AM

Another shining example here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Pretty sure every country has at least some problems with police, but seriously wtf is wrong with so many in the US?  Are they actually trying to start riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

yes

Yeah, I’ve heard of it, but never sure I believed it was deliberate incitement of violence.  More just aggressive and counterproductive incompetence.

I've heard people insinuate that the police are putting zero effort into stopping looters since the looting makes the protesters look bad.  I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that it's definitely happening though.

I don't know if they're allowing looters to loot, but some of the videos I've seen make it clear the police have instigated some of the violence.

Quote from: Unconvinced on June 15, 2020, 08:16:32 AM

Quote from: Crouton on June 15, 2020, 06:58:09 AM

Quote from: Unconvinced on June 15, 2020, 06:54:26 AM

Another shining example here:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-video-police-mace-child-seattle-protest

Pretty sure every country has at least some problems with police, but seriously wtf is wrong with so many in the US?  Are they actually trying to start riots?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_riot

yes

Yeah, I’ve heard of it, but never sure I believed it was deliberate incitement of violence.  More just aggressive and counterproductive incompetence.

I've heard people insinuate that the police are putting zero effort into stopping looters since the looting makes the protesters look bad.  I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that it's definitely happening though.

This absolutely was happening in Santa Monica. My wife has friends out there. One of them lives right down the street from where there was a peaceful protest going on, and police were all over the place in riot gear with guns raised (rubber bullets, I'm sure, but still) and pushing people around while literally 1 block over there was another crowd that was looting without any police presence whatsoever. It's really really weird.

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Quote from: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 08:14:44 AM

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Chill brother. It's totallackey. He says such dumb shit on a daily basis.

Quote from: JJA on June 15, 2020, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 08:14:44 AM

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Chill brother. It's totallackey. He says such dumb shit on a daily basis.

Yes, there's no reason to even reply to him, but markjo will do it every time. Don't be markjo.

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on June 15, 2020, 09:27:33 AM

Quote from: JJA on June 15, 2020, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 08:14:44 AM

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Chill brother. It's totallackey. He says such dumb shit on a daily basis.

Yes, there's no reason to even reply to him, but markjo will do it every time. Don't be markjo.

Huh?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 15, 2020, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on June 15, 2020, 09:27:33 AM

Quote from: JJA on June 15, 2020, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 08:14:44 AM

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Chill brother. It's totallackey. He says such dumb shit on a daily basis.

Yes, there's no reason to even reply to him, but markjo will do it every time. Don't be markjo.

Huh?

Stop replying to lackey. It's a waste of space to scroll past your 'discussions'.
Thanks.

Quote from: markjo on June 15, 2020, 12:56:41 PM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 15, 2020, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on June 15, 2020, 09:27:33 AM

Quote from: JJA on June 15, 2020, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: totallackey on June 15, 2020, 08:14:44 AM

Racism is individual choice and not systemic.

This is quite literally, the dumbest thing you have ever said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

Chill brother. It's totallackey. He says such dumb shit on a daily basis.

Yes, there's no reason to even reply to him, but markjo will do it every time. Don't be markjo.

Huh?

Stop replying to lackey. It's a waste of space to scroll past your 'discussions'.
Thanks.

As opposed to scrolling past everyone else's "discussions" with him?

So, it's a race thing is it? Has anybody cared to looked at the statistics?

In 2017 - US police shot - 457 whites, 223 blacks, 179 Hispanics, 44 other, 84 unknowns.

In 2018 - US police shot - 399 whites, 209 blacks, 148 Hispanics, 36 other, and 204 unknowns.

In 2019 - US police shot - 370 whites, 235 blacks, 158 Hispanics, 39 other, and 202 unknowns.

In 2020 thus far - US police shot - 172 whites, 88 blacks, 57 Hispanics, 14 other, 98 unknowns.

The USA has shit gun control and would generally be a hell of a place to police, no argument there.

But, looking at the stats, numbers of white people shot by US police is about double that of black people in the years 2017 and 2018, and far exceeds black people shot in the last couple of years.

If you were to separate each of the white, black, Hispanic, other, and unknown populations, perhaps the numbers per individual populations are higher for the black population in the US than the white population in the US, but as one combined population, it looks more dangerous to be a white person in the US......

Black lives matter for sure, but how about Human lives matter in general?

This is where standardized and mandatory police training across the USA would be imperative. You do need training to know where and when it is appropriate to use choke holds, and where and when to apply use of deadly force. This is a training issue, a police brutality issue, not a race issue.

Your math is off a little.  You have to adjust for percentage.  Black people make up %13.4 of the US population.

So, it's a race thing is it? Has anybody cared to looked at the statistics?

In 2017 - US police shot - 457 whites, 223 blacks, 179 Hispanics, 44 other, 84 unknowns.

In 2018 - US police shot - 399 whites, 209 blacks, 148 Hispanics, 36 other, and 204 unknowns.

In 2019 - US police shot - 370 whites, 235 blacks, 158 Hispanics, 39 other, and 202 unknowns.

In 2020 thus far - US police shot - 172 whites, 88 blacks, 57 Hispanics, 14 other, 98 unknowns.

The USA has shit gun control and would generally be a hell of a place to police, no argument there.

But, looking at the stats, numbers of white people shot by US police is about double that of black people in the years 2017 and 2018, and far exceeds black people shot in the last couple of years.

If you were to separate each of the white, black, Hispanic, other, and unknown populations, perhaps the numbers per individual populations are higher for the black population in the US than the white population in the US, but as one combined population, it looks more dangerous to be a white person in the US......

Black lives matter for sure, but how about Human lives matter in general?

This is where standardized and mandatory police training across the USA would be imperative. You do need training to know where and when it is appropriate to use choke holds, and where and when to apply use of deadly force. This is a training issue, a police brutality issue, not a race issue.

C'mon, you know that blacks are a vast minority over there. Also if that's just those that get shot, what about those that die from other forms of police violence? Mr Floyd won't be counted towards those that got shot.

Imagine if in America.... The man's body would be riddled with bullets

Interesting data report from the NCBI - The disproportion is what is disturbing:

Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012
Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims. Fatality rates among military veterans/active duty service members were 1.4 times greater than among their civilian counterparts. Four case subtypes were examined based on themes that emerged in incident narratives: about 22% of cases were mental health related; 18% were suspected “suicide by cop” incidents, with white victims more likely than black or Hispanic victims to die in these circumstances; 14% involved intimate partner violence; and about 6% were unintentional deaths due to LE action. Another 53% of cases were unclassified and did not fall into a coded subtype. Regression analyses identified victim and incident characteristics associated with each case subtype and unclassified cases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

The simple fact is that blacks are more likely to be unjustly harassed or killed, percentage wise, than any other group.

So, it's a race thing is it? Has anybody cared to looked at the statistics?

In 2017 - US police shot - 457 whites, 223 blacks, 179 Hispanics, 44 other, 84 unknowns.

In 2018 - US police shot - 399 whites, 209 blacks, 148 Hispanics, 36 other, and 204 unknowns.

In 2019 - US police shot - 370 whites, 235 blacks, 158 Hispanics, 39 other, and 202 unknowns.

In 2020 thus far - US police shot - 172 whites, 88 blacks, 57 Hispanics, 14 other, 98 unknowns.

The USA has shit gun control and would generally be a hell of a place to police, no argument there.

But, looking at the stats, numbers of white people shot by US police is about double that of black people in the years 2017 and 2018, and far exceeds black people shot in the last couple of years.

If you were to separate each of the white, black, Hispanic, other, and unknown populations, perhaps the numbers per individual populations are higher for the black population in the US than the white population in the US, but as one combined population, it looks more dangerous to be a white person in the US......

Black lives matter for sure, but how about Human lives matter in general?

This is where standardized and mandatory police training across the USA would be imperative. You do need training to know where and when it is appropriate to use choke holds, and where and when to apply use of deadly force. This is a training issue, a police brutality issue, not a race issue.

That's why I keep saying it's a policing issue.

Also, we live in America where anyone could have a gun, anyone could turn on you and shoot you. It's easy for countries to judge that only have to be worried about being attacked with a bat or knives.

Your math is off a little.  You have to adjust for percentage.  Black people make up %13.4 of the US population.

Did you adjust for the fact a black person is the most likely to be commiting a crime despite their minority status?? Especially a violent crime, on eachother none the less?

The simple fact is that blacks are more likely to be unjustly harassed or killed, percentage wise, than any other group.

See post above for the reason they are more likely to cross paths with a cop

Interesting data report from the NCBI - The disproportion is what is disturbing:

Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
Findings From the National Violent Death Reporting System, 17 U.S. States, 2009–2012
Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims. Fatality rates among military veterans/active duty service members were 1.4 times greater than among their civilian counterparts. Four case subtypes were examined based on themes that emerged in incident narratives: about 22% of cases were mental health related; 18% were suspected “suicide by cop” incidents, with white victims more likely than black or Hispanic victims to die in these circumstances; 14% involved intimate partner violence; and about 6% were unintentional deaths due to LE action. Another 53% of cases were unclassified and did not fall into a coded subtype. Regression analyses identified victim and incident characteristics associated with each case subtype and unclassified cases.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

'Suicide by cop' incidents lol. So is that where you get someone with a weapon raging and charging at police yelling 'come at me bro!!'

That's nearly 1 in 5 shooting death incidents by police?? Holy shit