Murder of George Floyd

Because you are still being retarted about it.

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 13, 2020, 03:46:48 PM

Quote from: JJA on June 13, 2020, 03:36:59 PM

Treason and rebellion are the same thing.

Treason is betrayal.
Rebellion is violent resistance.

Different things.

One is a subset of the other.

If they are the same thing, which is the subset?

Quote from: JJA on June 13, 2020, 03:36:59 PM

They can call themselves whatever they wanted, they still committed treason. They opened fire on their own country.

No.  They left the union, formed their own government and opened fire when the union tried to force them back.

Well according to the constitution they didn't have the right to leave, and never left and were still part of the Unites States.

They formed their own illegal government and committed treason and rebellion.

Why are you so concerned with claiming the south didn't commit treason? Do you think that's somehow unfair?

Quote from: JJA on June 13, 2020, 03:36:59 PM

Treason and rebellion are the same thing.

No, they aren't:

Quote from: https://wikidiff.com/treason/rebellion

As nouns the difference between rebellion and treason is that rebellion is (uncountable) armed resistance to an established government or ruler while treason is the crime of betraying one’s own country.

You are right, they are not the same in the dictionary, but you can commit both, and the US government certainly felt that way.

According to this, leading a rebellion is considered treason.

"Thomas Wilson Dorr was convicted of treason against Rhode Island in 1844 for leading a rebellion against the state government, and sentenced to life imprisonment.[32] Dorr served twelve months of his sentence. He was released in 1845 after the Rhode Island state legislature passed an Act of General Amnesty. In January 1854 the legislature passed an act annulling the verdict of the Rhode Island Supreme Court"

This is as bare bones as I can make it.

Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

The confederates fired on Fort Sumter, which certainly is "levying War against them".

You can't claim they were no longer part of the US because the Constitution has no exit clause, nor did any of the states add one when they joined and signed it. There was no legal way for them to leave, therefore they were still part of the US.

Was there a legal clause that allowed the colonies to commit treason against Britain?

Was there a legal clause that allowed the colonies to commit treason against Britain?

Of course not. Well, I'll say I am not AWARE of any. It would be silly if there was.

I think we are a long way off topic,  there is legal argument that the conveyance of territorial rights from George III was to individual states not to the Union as a whole,  so if you are willing to follow that argument to it's conclusion, all states were ( and still are ) independant and had every right to secede from the Union if they chose to do so.

Myself, I think that argument is specious,  and doesn't reflect the reality which exists since the end of the civil war,  you could argue that the civil war created the United States, in the sense that it completed the conveyance of territorial rights of all states to the Union, albeit at the barrel of a gun.

Anyway,  back to the protests...

Fox News should be made to pay for deliberately trying to incite violence.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 13, 2020, 04:37:34 PM

Was there a legal clause that allowed the colonies to commit treason against Britain?

Of course not. Well, I'll say I am not AWARE of any. It would be silly if there was.

It's complicated. In the eyes of the Crown the Colonies were committing treasonous acts by forming an illegal government, assembling militia, the Dec of Ind., etc. Perhaps from a Colonial perspective, it all was an act of rebellion. There's a line that is crossed at some point. When pleas from the Colonies were unmet by the Crown the revolt probably crossed the line into treasonous territory.

Have you watched Dave Chappelle's 8:46 yet?

Very well then.  I have no chose but to go full MAGA!

John Oliver has a few words to say about  it....    skip to 15:14

Have you watched Dave Chappelle's 8:46 yet?

I had to go and find out who Candace Owens is.  Laura Ingraham I had heard of,  nothing good. 

Have you watched Dave Chappelle's 8:46 yet?

The funniest thing about Candace Owens is how obvious it is she tries super hard to straighten her hair. They look burned to a crisp.

The bodycam footage of one of the police involved in shooting Rayshard Brooks has been released

The guy was clearly shot while at some distance from the officers. Holy shit

He pulled the trigger which sounded like a few times. He literally thought (even in the current turmoil) that this mans life deserved to be ended. Yankee police love escalating situations to the point where they can kill someone it seems.

Sucked in he got fired. Hope he gets tried and done for murder too

The protestors that burned down the restaurant in question. Absolute dicks though. Like, WHY??

In the video I saw you can clearly see that the guy runs away, but then turns his body and points his right hand at the officer (is the taser in that hand?).

Not saying this is ok or any of this should have happened, but resisting arrest, stealing a cop's taser, running away and pointing said weapon at the cop isn't normal. Neither is driving apparently while drunk, sleeping in your car while waiting in line, getting woken up by a cop and asked to drive on and then immediately sleep again...

Situation is fucked up, but please actually look at what happened and don't just blindly make the guy a martyr and demonize the cops.

The guy is not a martyr but that cop went full demon. F#&k him

Also if it's true the cops spent several minutes putting on gloves and picking up the shell casings before attending to the guy to render aid then that is fucked up. It shows what little value they have about a life

https://www.insider.com/nascar-drivers-drop-helmet-beam-designs-confederate-flag-bubba-wallace-2020-6

Good news with Nascar doing the right thing with the flaf.  A bunch of drivers have also dumped a helmet designer that posted some racist tweets. And with a statement that should sound familiar in this thread. This is what I'm trying to push back against, funny it just happens to be in the news today. It's good to see that the protests are having at least some effect this time. Nascar isn't known for having lots of liberal fans after all.

The helmet designer...

"The Confederate Flag, North vs South in the Civil War, a war over separation of the Union, not slavery," one post read. "But hey ignorance wins again, NASCAR you realize the North had slaves too, lol not just the South, you want to remove the American Flag as well, idiots."

In the video you can clearly see that the guy runs away, but then turns his body and points his right hand at the officer's head (is the taser in that hand? I think so).

I'm not any of this should have happened, but resisting arrest, stealing a cop's taser, running away and pointing said weapon at the cop isn't particulary normal and friendly behaviour. Neither is driving apparently while drunk, sleeping in your car while waiting in line, getting woken up by a cop and asked to drive away and then immediately fall asleep again...

The situation is fucked up, but please actually look at what happened and don't just blindly make the guy a martyr and demonize the cops.

He wasn't driving, he was sleeping in his car and Wendy's called the police because he was blocking the way. Then the cops showed up and he flipped his shit when they tried to arrest him. It doesn't matter if he was being "friendly", scared drunk people aren't very friendly usually but he was running away. Tasers are non lethal weapons that only shoot once, and he wasn't even shooting it at the cop who shot him. Shooting at someone 3 times with a lethal weapon because he tried to shoot someone else with a non lethal weapon while running away is at THE VERY LEAST excessive force.

I don't even understand why an incident like that has to escalate to that, if someone is not driving and is just sitting in his car sleeping, then why don't you just tell him to move somewhere where he doesn't block the way and let him sleep? It's very confusing to me why all these incidents happen. Like with the George Floyd case, anyone working at a shop that I know if they were handed a counterfeit 20 dollar bill and they accepted it they'd just take the L and move on if the guy had already left, not call the cops. In this case this could have been resolved if they just asked him to park somewhere else and take a cab home or sleep until he sobers up. What is it with these incidents just getting completely out of hand?

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on June 14, 2020, 07:51:05 AM

In the video I saw you can clearly see that the guy runs away, but then turns his body and points his right hand at the officer (is the taser in that hand?).

Not saying this is ok or any of this should have happened, but resisting arrest, stealing a cop's taser, running away and pointing said weapon at the cop isn't normal. Neither is driving apparently while drunk, sleeping in your car while waiting in line, getting woken up by a cop and asked to drive on and then immediately sleep again...

Situation is fucked up, but please actually look at what happened and don't just blindly make the guy a martyr and demonize the cops.

The guy is not a martyr but that cop went full demon. F#&k him

Also if it's true the cops spent several minutes putting on gloves and picking up the shell casings before attending to the guy to render aid then that is fucked up. It shows what little value they have about a life

Yeah, it's not about making him a martyr. It's just one more instance of a police officer using the ultimate amount of force instead of necessary force.

Pez, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think if you pass out in the driver's seat and the keys are in the ignition you can be charged with drunk driving. Also, if he was drunk, they're not going to tell him to move the vehicle himself, since that would be illegal too.

Pez, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think if you pass out in the driver's seat and the keys are in the ignition you can be charged with drunk driving. Also, if he was drunk, they're not going to tell him to move the vehicle himself, since that would be illegal too.

They did tell him to move it though at first in the video, and he did, before they tried to arrest him.

One thing that is hard for me to understand is why this even went to the police. Like, you see a car blocking the way and you see someone sleeping in their car seat. You don't even try to wake them up and ask them to move? Why does the matter go straight to the police? Have people lost all capacity to even try to communicate first?

Okay few points here:
- He obviously wasn't driving when sleeping, but I'm quite sure he didn't just park his car in front of wendys, then drink, then go inside the car to sleep... I'm sure surveillance cam would show that the guy drove there, while drunk.
- Tasers are usually non lethal if properly used (they can still kill you tho) but I guess if someone fires at your head, at least you could lose one eye. Maybe they could provoke a seizure or worse? I doubt it has been tested what happens if someone fires a teaser at your head.
- I agree with the excessive force. I also don't understand why you put a guy in handcuffs just for being drunk in a car? He didn't cause an accident or anything.
- "this could have been resolved if they just asked him to park somewhere else and take a cab home or sleep until he sobers up. What is it with these incidents just getting completely out of hand?"
That's exactely what they did do. They asked him to drive somewhere else. But he more or less immediately fell asleep again, so then they asked him to move to the parking spot and did the breath alcohol test.

Police have fired tasers to people's heads, so it has been tested. Yes tasers can kill you, but usually if you are tased a bunch of times over and over again, you will be fine if you are tased once and you are healthy, so it is not considered a lethal weapon, which is the whole excuse the police use when they use them. If we start considering taser use lethal force then we have to reexamine all the cases where police used tasers on someone for merely fleeing or otherwise not posing a threat. He had already fired the taser once when he was shot, he couldn't really fire it again, so even if he did pose threat to that one officer he shot, he was no longer a threat to any of them. He had no vehicle, he had no weapons, they had all his papers, they could have just arrested him at any other time.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on June 14, 2020, 08:41:12 AM

Pez, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think if you pass out in the driver's seat and the keys are in the ignition you can be charged with drunk driving. Also, if he was drunk, they're not going to tell him to move the vehicle himself, since that would be illegal too.

They did tell him to move it though at first in the video, and he did, before they tried to arrest him.

From what I saw of the available video, everything started out nice and friendly.  After he failed the breathalyzer test, the cops went to handcuff him and then that's when he lost his shit and started resisting.

Drunk drivers should be arrested, they regularly kill people. They shouldn't be shot in the back, though.

It all happened a bit fast once he broke free.  If I'm being generous to the cops it looks like he panicked and overreacted.  The guy probably shouldn't be a cop if he makes decisions this poorly under pressure.

On the other hand if he steal a cops weapon and then fires it at him when he's chasing him then let's face it, he shares some of the blame for this.

I don't think this is a burn down the Wendy's type of situation.

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on June 14, 2020, 07:51:05 AM

In the video you can clearly see that the guy runs away, but then turns his body and points his right hand at the officer's head (is the taser in that hand? I think so).

I'm not any of this should have happened, but resisting arrest, stealing a cop's taser, running away and pointing said weapon at the cop isn't particulary normal and friendly behaviour. Neither is driving apparently while drunk, sleeping in your car while waiting in line, getting woken up by a cop and asked to drive away and then immediately fall asleep again...

The situation is fucked up, but please actually look at what happened and don't just blindly make the guy a martyr and demonize the cops.

He wasn't driving, he was sleeping in his car and Wendy's called the police because he was blocking the way. Then the cops showed up and he flipped his shit when they tried to arrest him. It doesn't matter if he was being "friendly", scared drunk people aren't very friendly usually but he was running away. Tasers are non lethal weapons that only shoot once, and he wasn't even shooting it at the cop who shot him. Shooting at someone 3 times with a lethal weapon because he tried to shoot someone else with a non lethal weapon while running away is at THE VERY LEAST excessive force.

I don't even understand why an incident like that has to escalate to that, if someone is not driving and is just sitting in his car sleeping, then why don't you just tell him to move somewhere where he doesn't block the way and let him sleep? It's very confusing to me why all these incidents happen. Like with the George Floyd case, anyone working at a shop that I know if they were handed a counterfeit 20 dollar bill and they accepted it they'd just take the L and move on if the guy had already left, not call the cops. In this case this could have been resolved if they just asked him to park somewhere else and take a cab home or sleep until he sobers up. What is it with these incidents just getting completely out of hand?

So he can jump on the road and kill a few people attempting to drive home?

Also, a non lethal weapon can turn lethal quickly. The subject uses the taser to incapacitate the officer, then steals his gun or attacks him/her.

Pez, I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think if you pass out in the driver's seat and the keys are in the ignition you can be charged with drunk driving. Also, if he was drunk, they're not going to tell him to move the vehicle himself, since that would be illegal too.

It's a gray area.... Yes, if you are in a car with the keys in the ignition started or not (such as people when they pull over to the side of the road to sleep drunk), that's DWI. However, he was on private property, so they would have had to watch him and wait until he pulled in a public street to pull him over for DWI.

All they could have got him with originally was trespassing/loitering/disturbance of the Peace until he attacked the cops.

One thing that is hard for me to understand is why this even went to the police. Like, you see a car blocking the way and you see someone sleeping in their car seat. You don't even try to wake them up and ask them to move? Why does the matter go straight to the police? Have people lost all capacity to even try to communicate first?

It's a corporation.... They don't want the liability of low wage hourly workers using their own judgement in any situation like that. Can equal massive lawsuits, liability and backlash when (and they will 95 percent of the time) things go wrong.

So policy is call the PoPo and have the deal with it.

Looks like another US Police Officer up on a murder charge. Tasers are bright yellow for a reason.

All I keep seeing is police incompetence in America. He was a big strong guy, but two police should have been able to handle him. He punched one of the officers in the face before he ran off, and i think it was the assaulted officer who drew his service firearm and fired. Maybe he was dazed and couldnt tell the difference between a bright yellow taser and a gun??

The police, presumably knew who he was, and at most just had to avoid being tasered by the guy, who wouldn't have known how to arm the taser, and then tackle him to the ground. Pepper spray also would have worked a treat.

I guess when citizens think its ok to resist arrest and wrestle, and punch police in the face, they invite injury upon themselves. Death is a bit much though.

I've gotta say, the best thing president Trump has said in response to George Floyd, the riots, and protests, is he aims to bring in National standardised police training across America. That is evidence he recognizes the true problem with his Police - not racists, but rife incompetence.