Sea and air pressure

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #690 on: October 04, 2020, 05:05:25 AM »
The more action is the resistance of the mass by the denser water.
Which should thus result in more reaction of it weighing more. Hence your model is wrong.

As for weighing more in water. You have your dense mass on a spring hanging above it, with the dense mass immersed in that water.
It shows a measure that is less because the dense mass of the object is being resisted by that spring and also the denser mass of the water crushing into that dense mass.
But the water is crushing it down not up. You need to explain why this water, which has a greater resistance than air causes it to weigh less, in defiance of your alleged equal action and reaction.

Quote from: JackBlack
We can also test that it has absolutely nothing to do with how hard it is to displace the fluid by using fluids of differing viscosity.
Well how about you explain that and we can go through it.
Do you mean for a few posts before you flee from it as it doesn't fit in your model as basically nothing from reality does?

It is quite simple, get a cylinder and fill it with a fluid in question. Now drop a steel ball in and measure how quickly it falls.
This is the most simple demonstration of how a fluid resists motion.
The time it takes to fall is inversely proportional to the viscosity, with a more viscous fluid taking longer.

You could also try to have a horizontal setup, with the ball pulled along by a wire which passes through a seal so the fluid doesn't escape.

If you want a more complex setup which isn't affected by buoyancy, you can use 2 discs with some fluid of a fixed thickness placed between them, one fixed in place and one rotating. The greater the viscosity, the more force is required to rotate the 2 discs. The same can also be done with 2 drums instead of 2 discs with the fluid placed between the 2 drums.

Then, repeat the previously mentioned experiment to see how much the weight of the object changes when immersed in the fluid.

Quote from: JackBlack
But more importantly, once the water is displaced, why should it matter? Displacing the water is a property of motion.
No...it is not.
Displacement
Displacing not displacement. The 2 are significantly different.
Displacing is pushing the water out of the way.

Once that water has been displaced, it is displaced.
If the object just sits there, no further displacing is required.

Displacement is the amount of water that was displaced.

What you are doing now is like saying if you push an object onto something, then even after you stop pushing it and leave it there, you are still pushing it.

you know any mass in water will displace that water by using a full container to immerse that mass into and into a separate tared container to be weighed.
You know from that, the water weighs the same as the mass.
No, I know something quite different.
The water weighs the same amount as the mass is apparently reduced by.
This applies for any fluid, and is the massive problem you need to explain for your model.

What you avoid is the displacement of atmosphere because it kills gravity stone dead.
No, it doesn't.
That is because an object in the atmosphere, just like an object in any fluid, experiences an upwards force.
However this force is entirely due to gravity as gravity is the cause of the pressure gradient that causes that upwards force.

You are yet to explain how your magic air magically pushes objects down nor addressed the multitude of problems with it, so it doesn't kill gravity at all. It doesn't even compete with gravity due to how far behind it is.

If sceppy wants to adhere to the slosh effect inside the airtightank, then he reintroduces a problem that jackB brought up many threads ago - why stacks dont stack side to side?
They do.
Then why aren't we pushed into a cliff when we stand beside it?

He will create a higher compression as he moves forward which will leave a lower pressure behind him, which will be filled by the higher pressure created.
So basically, what he pushes away, comes right back behind and onto him.
Yes, and thus it has no ability to affect the outside world to cause the stack to so drastically change to tilt the container.

Quote from: Themightykabool
He should feel a horizontal push once he reaches a wall equal and opposite to his stacked displacement.
If the man was to stand on the scale it would show, say 200lb.
If he moved to the wall, placed the scale on the wall, lay down on the floor with his feet against the scale, we should expect to see the sideways displaced air stack and push him agains the wall, and against the scale, to the effect of 200lbs.
Nope, you are missing the point entirely.
No, that would be you. That is the entire point of asking about sideways stack.
You claim it is this magical stack that causes weight, and it doesn't seem to matter just what the stack is (as long as it is air). So why should the same weight be recorded from the sideways stack?

And I see still no explanation for why the pressure gauge records an increase, but not the scale (nor any of the other multitude of problems for your nonsense).

If you don't have any explanation, why not just admit your model doesn't work?

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #691 on: October 04, 2020, 05:34:34 AM »
Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #692 on: October 04, 2020, 05:35:29 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #693 on: October 04, 2020, 06:00:51 AM »

Displacing not displacement. The 2 are significantly different.
Displacing is pushing the water out of the way.

Once that water has been displaced, it is displaced.
If the object just sits there, no further displacing is required.

Displacement is the amount of water that was displaced.

What you are doing now is like saying if you push an object onto something, then even after you stop pushing it and leave it there, you are still pushing it.

Have a think about what you're saying.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #694 on: October 04, 2020, 06:01:58 AM »
Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?
Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #695 on: October 04, 2020, 06:03:02 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #696 on: October 04, 2020, 06:51:08 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #697 on: October 04, 2020, 07:20:22 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #698 on: October 04, 2020, 08:07:28 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #699 on: October 04, 2020, 09:11:20 AM »
Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?
Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.

What properies of air make it so it only stacks vertically?

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #700 on: October 04, 2020, 03:38:40 PM »
Have a think about what you're saying.
I have. That is why I realise your nonsense doesn't work.
You should try it some time.

Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.
No, all he is doing is showing just how nonsensical your model is.

Are you now saying it only stacks vertically, or are you saying it stacks horizontally as well, but not the same as vertically?

If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.
I think the point was asking why does it push him down?
If the air can just move around the person horizontally rather than forcing them to the side, why doesn't the same happen with air moving around from top to bottom?
It is the same old issue of why does the air magically push people down?

Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.
No, extremely poorly "answered" in a way which doesn't actually address the issue, with repeatedly deflection on your part, as your model simply doesn't work.

Once more, here are some issues you are yet to actually address (i.e. questions you are yet to actually answer, with an answer that doesn't contradict another observation from reality or from another explanation of yours):
Why does the scale not record an increase in weight but the pressure gauge does record an increase in pressure?
Why does an object in mid air get pushed down, even though it has air all around?
Why does a suction cup get pressed upwards to the ceiling rather than fall down if the air below doesn't push up?
Why only a suction cup rather than any old object?
Similarly, if it is based upon the ground being below you, why doesn't it apply a sideways force if you put yourself up against a cliff?
Why does the pressure/weight/force increase as you move down a stack, if all the force is being applied from the top?
Why does a barometer work, with it working depending on its orientation?
Why does a vessel weigh less if you evacuate the air from it, i.e. cause it to displace more air?
Why does the weight of an object depend upon its mass, rather than its volume or cross sectional area, when all forces of air and other fluids and observed to be proportional to area, not mass?
If air can magically penetrate through everything such that the "volume" an object displaces is magically proportional to its mass rather than being its actual volume, how is anything air tight?
If weight is based upon displacing atmosphere with that atmosphere pushing back onto the object with an "equal and opposite reaction", how come when you replace the atmosphere with a denser fluid, how come the weight becomes less rather than more?
Likewise, why, when you lower the air pressure (making it easier to displace the air), the weight of an object increases, rather than decreases, but only to a point, where when the object is in a near perfect vacuum, with effectively no resistance from the air, it still has a significant weight rather than being weightless?

And if you want to start with the basics, then go ahead;
start with explaining why the air pushes objects down, by actually explaining it in a way which applies universally to any object (at least any denser than air);
i.e. it applies regardless of if the object is on the ground, on a wall, on the ceiling or in mid air.
That means no appealing to using the ground as resistance, as in some cases there would be no ground below and instead there could be a wall to the side or a ceiling above to use as resistance.
Likewise, that means no appealing to the lack of air below, as in some cases there is plenty of air below and no air to the side or no air above.

And if you want to appeal to the air compressing above, remember, in some cases it isn't above, and you need to explain why it doesn't compress below, especially as if you do go down that path and say the air can't push up, it will immediately bring up plenty of situations where the air does push up.

And once more, with all the available evidence of how air (and other fluids) work(s), we know it can't be what causes objects to be pushed down.
That is because we know the force it applies depends on the pressure. That means it will apply an upwards force to any object due to the pressure gradient in the atmosphere (or other fluids).
Likewise, we also know the force is dependent upon area, not mass, and is only dependent on volume when you are dealing with a pressure gradient.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #701 on: October 05, 2020, 09:43:19 AM »
So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?
It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #702 on: October 06, 2020, 12:06:24 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #703 on: October 06, 2020, 12:07:06 AM »
Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?
Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.

What properies of air make it so it only stacks vertically?
It doesn't just stack vertically.
It stacks all over but obviously, up as it builds.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #704 on: October 06, 2020, 12:31:36 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

They don't have to be stored in a cool place. Just in normal range hot and cold environments. Not above 120F (50 C) and not below -20F. Example, 90 F (32 C) they are fine and I wouldn't think 90 F (32 C) qualifies as a "cool place".

Anyway, we're not talking about pressurized tanks at the moment. Fat guy and skinny guy in panels 3 & 4 inside a non-pressurized box. That's what we're talking about and how the outside atmosphere has any impact on or notion about what is going on inside the box.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #705 on: October 06, 2020, 12:36:17 AM »
Have a think about what you're saying.
I have. That is why I realise your nonsense doesn't work.

You're entitled to that opinion.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #706 on: October 06, 2020, 12:37:39 AM »
So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?
It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?
Yep.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #707 on: October 06, 2020, 12:43:07 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

They don't have to be stored in a cool place. Just in normal range hot and cold environments. Not above 120F (50 C) and not below -20F. Example, 90 F (32 C) they are fine and I wouldn't think 90 F (32 C) qualifies as a "cool place".

Anyway, we're not talking about pressurized tanks at the moment. Fat guy and skinny guy in panels 3 & 4 inside a non-pressurized box. That's what we're talking about and how the outside atmosphere has any impact on or notion about what is going on inside the box.
Yes we are talking about pressurised tanks.
You have people in a box. It's pressure.
And once again, why is it sensible to store air/gas tanks in a cooler place?

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #708 on: October 06, 2020, 12:59:24 AM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

They don't have to be stored in a cool place. Just in normal range hot and cold environments. Not above 120F (50 C) and not below -20F. Example, 90 F (32 C) they are fine and I wouldn't think 90 F (32 C) qualifies as a "cool place".

Anyway, we're not talking about pressurized tanks at the moment. Fat guy and skinny guy in panels 3 & 4 inside a non-pressurized box. That's what we're talking about and how the outside atmosphere has any impact on or notion about what is going on inside the box.
Yes we are talking about pressurised tanks.
You have people in a box. It's pressure.
And once again, why is it sensible to store air/gas tanks in a cooler place?

Well the box isn't sealed, if that's what you mean.

Is 100F (37C) considered a cooler place? What does temperature have to do with anything? The temperature inside the box with the 2 guys is the same as the temp outside the box. Same for the atmospheric pressure, same inside as out. Is the atmospheric pressure different between me standing in my kitchen as it is standing in my backyard?

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #709 on: October 06, 2020, 04:08:22 AM »
Have a think about what you're saying.
I have. That is why I realise your nonsense doesn't work.
You're entitled to that opinion.
It isn't an opinion, it is a fact. A fact you are yet to refute, and which you support each time you ignore all these issues which show your model to be garbage.

Like I said, start from the basics, explain why an object in mid air, or against a wall or against a ceiling fall.

I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?
And more deflection.
Once more, we aren't talking about the pressure increasing or decreasing. We are talking about an object moving around inside.

As such, that is in no way relevant to the discussion.

Also note that they don't actually need to be stored in a cool place.
As long as it is significantly below the melting point you could store and use them in a high temperature environment, as long as you aren't taking them full from a low temperature environment to a high temperature environment.

So how about before just asking more nonsense questions to deflect from your inability to answer simple questions you tell us why we should care.
If that requires providing the answer, then just provide it and explaining the reasoning.

But according to your model, why would it be an issue in the first place? Your gas magically knows to just push towards an opening and magically not push towards the rest of the container. So why would it push towards a wall it can't get through?

It doesn't just stack vertically.
It stacks all over but obviously, up as it builds.
So we are back to it stacking horizontally and pushing you into a wall?

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #710 on: October 06, 2020, 04:50:40 AM »
Your response to why air only stacks vertically is not an answer.
You didnt sxplain anything - the mechanics of it or even an analogy.



Also yes
Cool dry place is a defldcrion.
The sealsd box we re using as an example is a hypothetical and has no reason to involve temperature.

Cool is a matter of the hoop strength of the pressure vessel.
Add heat and you make either the canister melty or the contents go to lhigher prsssure - and boom!
Now stop deflecting.
Provide a real sensible answer.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #711 on: October 06, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »
So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?
It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?
Yep.

So if I step forward 1 step, how fast does the area I just vacated become equalized.
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #712 on: October 06, 2020, 10:01:17 PM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

They don't have to be stored in a cool place. Just in normal range hot and cold environments. Not above 120F (50 C) and not below -20F. Example, 90 F (32 C) they are fine and I wouldn't think 90 F (32 C) qualifies as a "cool place".

Anyway, we're not talking about pressurized tanks at the moment. Fat guy and skinny guy in panels 3 & 4 inside a non-pressurized box. That's what we're talking about and how the outside atmosphere has any impact on or notion about what is going on inside the box.
Yes we are talking about pressurised tanks.
You have people in a box. It's pressure.
And once again, why is it sensible to store air/gas tanks in a cooler place?

Well the box isn't sealed, if that's what you mean.

Is 100F (37C) considered a cooler place? What does temperature have to do with anything? The temperature inside the box with the 2 guys is the same as the temp outside the box. Same for the atmospheric pressure, same inside as out. Is the atmospheric pressure different between me standing in my kitchen as it is standing in my backyard?
So the box isn't sealed now?
You're avoiding the question because you know that to answer it would confirm what I'm trying to tell you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #713 on: October 06, 2020, 10:05:34 PM »


I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?
And more deflection.
Once more, we aren't talking about the pressure increasing or decreasing. We are talking about an object moving around inside.

Yep, which increases pressure in one area with every movement before that pressure equalises once again.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #714 on: October 06, 2020, 10:11:01 PM »
So Scepti, this brings us back to the scenario I mentioned before.   

I have a sealed tank of air that is suspended in air and balanced horizontally.

I shake the sealed tank of air quickly back and forth horizontally in my hands creating your sloshing effect.

I release the tank so that it is suspended in the air.

Why does the tank not tip up and down at the balance point as the air sloshes from one side to the other in the tank?
It would be damped in short order.

How short of an order?

What do you mean by damped?  Equalized?
Yep.

So if I step forward 1 step, how fast does the area I just vacated become equalized.
Very quickly.
Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #715 on: October 06, 2020, 10:51:54 PM »
If air goes ariund the fat guy laterally, why is it able to not go around him vertically but instead stacks up?
It does go over him. It goes over in a wave.

You're not answering the many questions as to why the stack pushes 'down' inside the box. And how the outside the box atmosphere has no knowledge of, nor impact on, the inside atmosphere of the box.
Well answered but you're just not taking any of it in, creating more frustration on yourself.

Actually you haven't. Specific question are here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=85940.msg2285153#msg2285153

In short: For instance, you have not given and adequate explanation as to how the outside atmosphere can have an equal and opposite reaction to the action(s) taking place inside the box. You just say, "equal and opposite reaction". Great. But how? How does the outside atmosphere know to 'react' to anything, equal or not, when it has no idea what, when, and where inside the box actions are taking place?
How does a lateral slosh effect push 'down' when it doesn't do that when I'm standing to walking on the bottom of a pool?
I have answered but I'll make this simple and ask you a question.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?

Just explain the reasons and we may get somewhere.

They don't have to be stored in a cool place. Just in normal range hot and cold environments. Not above 120F (50 C) and not below -20F. Example, 90 F (32 C) they are fine and I wouldn't think 90 F (32 C) qualifies as a "cool place".

Anyway, we're not talking about pressurized tanks at the moment. Fat guy and skinny guy in panels 3 & 4 inside a non-pressurized box. That's what we're talking about and how the outside atmosphere has any impact on or notion about what is going on inside the box.
Yes we are talking about pressurised tanks.
You have people in a box. It's pressure.
And once again, why is it sensible to store air/gas tanks in a cooler place?

Well the box isn't sealed, if that's what you mean.

Is 100F (37C) considered a cooler place? What does temperature have to do with anything? The temperature inside the box with the 2 guys is the same as the temp outside the box. Same for the atmospheric pressure, same inside as out. Is the atmospheric pressure different between me standing in my kitchen as it is standing in my backyard?
So the box isn't sealed now?
You're avoiding the question because you know that to answer it would confirm what I'm trying to tell you.

No, it's not 'sealed'. And no, I'm not avoiding the question. If anyone is avoiding anything, it's you. I wrote this days ago:

No, it's more simple than that. Skinny and fat guy are standing on the left side of the seesaw. The box is simply placed over them. There's no extra pressure or anything like that. Atmosphere inside the box is same as the outside. Going back to the first part, what exactly is the equal and opposite reaction outside of the box based upon any action inside the box? What is the outside atmosphere reacting to? It has no inkling anything is happening inside the box...

Like I wrote above, there's no difference in pressure inside or outside the box. No mass is being "pushed" into a container. The box is just lowered down over them as they are standing there. And of course the air is going to get pushed around in the box as some action occurs. But not enough of a drastic amount to push a 100 kilo guy down and raise up a 50 kilo guy. It's not under pressure, it's just good old fashioned air.

I know it's difficult because different people are presenting different scenarios. So maybe you are confusing my scenario with someone elses'. But mine all along is that it's not 'sealed', it's just a box lowered down over the fat and skinny guy standing on the seesaw.
So how does the outside the box atmosphere know or have any impact on what's going on inside the box when it has no indication as to what's going on inside the box?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #716 on: October 06, 2020, 11:52:00 PM »
I know it's difficult because different people are presenting different scenarios. So maybe you are confusing my scenario with someone elses'. But mine all along is that it's not 'sealed', it's just a box lowered down over the fat and skinny guy standing on the seesaw.
So how does the outside the box atmosphere know or have any impact on what's going on inside the box when it has no indication as to what's going on inside the box?
I've already answered this but I'll go a step further and use another answer. put your mind to work and understand it.

Ok....you know when you put something in the freezer and it expands. Like a bottle of water, for instance. You know the expansion can crack the bottle....right?
Now inside that bottle, it is sealed from outside but somehow inside that bottle the outside atmosphere has impacted the water inside of it.

Now you might ask " but what has this to do with mt box over the people".....and the answer is, as much as there is stuff going on inside, there is also stuff going on outside and each is in direct conflict....or unison....or equal reaction to action....whichever way you want to see it.


This is why I asked you about storage of compressed air/gas cylinders, because you know that external atmosphere has a direct effect on the internal storage.

The people inside the box are still under pressure even if it's normal atmospheric in your unsealed box.
Anything happening inside that unsealed box is going to be impacted externally.

You're having a hard time trying to figure out why something solid would be affected but you absolutely know that oil drums can be crushed by external atmosphere without anything inside beng unsealed.

It doesn't matter how it's looked at, there is always external reaction to any action whether it's sealed or not.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #717 on: October 07, 2020, 12:12:48 AM »
Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?




Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.





Ok
Lets take the sealed box 3 and 4.
We cant see inside in it.
Now close your eyes, spin the box around, and stop.
Now.
We dont know which way is up down left right.
Each wall has equal chance of being a "foundation" and no discerable difference.
Air stacks the same in all directions.
Now how are you pushing the fat guy "down"?
Air does not stack the same in all directions.
All you're doing is adding to your own confusion.

What properies of air make it so it only stacks vertically?


It doesn't just stack vertically.
It stacks all over but obviously, up as it builds.







Why dossnt it stack the same in all directions?
And if it does stack all over, but not as much, then when the guy is up against the wall, he should feel the lateral/ horz stacking pushing him.

Now if you were to employ that suction cups work on the wall, then by reverse logic, since everything everywhere falls "down" due to stacking, then non suction cups should also be pushed to the wall.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 12:18:19 AM by Themightykabool »

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #718 on: October 07, 2020, 12:38:30 AM »
I know it's difficult because different people are presenting different scenarios. So maybe you are confusing my scenario with someone elses'. But mine all along is that it's not 'sealed', it's just a box lowered down over the fat and skinny guy standing on the seesaw.
So how does the outside the box atmosphere know or have any impact on what's going on inside the box when it has no indication as to what's going on inside the box?
I've already answered this but I'll go a step further and use another answer. put your mind to work and understand it.

Ok, mind at work. Thanks for reminding me to do so.

Ok....you know when you put something in the freezer and it expands. Like a bottle of water, for instance. You know the expansion can crack the bottle....right?

Right.

Now inside that bottle, it is sealed from outside but somehow inside that bottle the outside atmosphere has impacted the water inside of it.

Now you might ask " but what has this to do with mt box over the people".....and the answer is, as much as there is stuff going on inside, there is also stuff going on outside and each is in direct conflict....or unison....or equal reaction to action....whichever way you want to see it.

No. There's no temperature or pressure variance like your bottle of water in a freezer. Now put your mind at work.

You say simply that "as much as there is stuff going on inside, there is also stuff going on outside". That's not an answer. Especially considering that your set-up doesn't apply.

Literally, it's just two guys under a non-sealed box on a seesaw. They are not being chilled (nor heated) they are just standing there. The outside atmosphere has no idea what's going on inside the box so it has no idea about an 'equal and opposite' reaction. How could it? How would the outside atmosphere 'know' anything?

This is why I asked you about storage of compressed air/gas cylinders, because you know that external atmosphere has a direct effect on the internal storage.

Great, but we're not talking about that.

The people inside the box are still under pressure even if it's normal atmospheric in your unsealed box.
Anything happening inside that unsealed box is going to be impacted externally.

"Anything happening inside that unsealed box is going to be impacted externally." How? How does the outside atmosphere know when the fat guy walks over to the other side on the seesaw and lifts the skinny guy? There is literally no way for the outside atmosphere to 'know' and impart something and begin to impact externally. What is the mechanism that allows the external atmosphere to know the when and where to do something?

You're having a hard time trying to figure out why something solid would be affected but you absolutely know that oil drums can be crushed by external atmosphere without anything inside beng unsealed.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but it has nothing to do with this scenario.

It doesn't matter how it's looked at, there is always external reaction to any action whether it's sealed or not.

Umm, it most certainly matters. Because there is no mechanism that can sentiently tell the external atmosphere to actively react and cause an effect on something internally in this scenario. The external has no knowledge or connection to the internal. None. Describe the mechanism you speak of.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #719 on: October 07, 2020, 01:15:59 AM »
Yep, which increases pressure in one area with every movement before that pressure equalises once again.
Why do compressed air/gas cylinders have to be stored in a cool place?
You mean which increases the pressure in the immediate vicinity for a tiny period of time unless the person is moving quite quickly, and which very rapidly is resolved to result in no overall change in pressure of the container.
The container is the same regardless of where the person is inside it.

Are you trying to suggest that air has memory? That it remembers what pressure it has felt and can act based upon that even if it isn't still feeling that pressure?

Have you ever let a flat board drop to the ground and watched it just land on a cushion of air before that air is decompressed back into the atmosphere?
There's an example of how mass can be resisted.

This happens with everything, just on different scales...including the person in that box.
Yet clearly not to cause weight.
We can compare that flat board, which weighs basically nothing on a scale, to a much smaller steel ball, which weighs a lot more.
If you drop the steel ball, it isn't dropped by a cushion of air.
This air resistance acts based upon the area, not the mass. So why should what causes weight to act based upon mass rather than area?

And I see still no explanation of the most basic question, why things fall, including in mid air or against a wall or cieling.