Sea and air pressure

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #540 on: September 20, 2020, 10:24:58 PM »

Quote from: JackBlack

If you would like an example of an explanation which is consistent and coherent (and matches reality) here you go:
You keep forgetting about displacement, which is massive in this context.
As I was making quite clear, I was providing an example of a coherent model which actually explains reality, i.e. not your model. So no, I didn't forget, as displacement doesn't actually work the way your magic claims.

But it does.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #541 on: September 20, 2020, 10:37:43 PM »


Quote from: JackBlack

And again, you said to stick to 1 particular issue until and not move on until "I get it".
Does you continually avoiding it mean that you recognise that I do get it and that your model doesn't work?
If not, why do you continually avoid it?

Here is what you should have addressed:
You have the addition of an object displacing air and increasing the pressure.
I explained it and you decided to ignore it and say I didn't. I can't help you if you won't help yourself.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #542 on: September 20, 2020, 11:30:33 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack
There is no external atmosphere directly involved in this process.
There is but you veer away from it by not understanding the equal and opposite reaction to action. Or robbing Peter to pay Paul if you want to look at it in a different context.

You only get out what you put in.
There's a lot of things happening to ensure this happens.

So in this scenario, the FULL RESERVOIR is transferring its gas to the EMPTY TARGET via a hose between the two. A completely closed system not subject to the atmosphere.
In the lower panel, the transfer has been completed and the TARGET is now full and the RESERVOIR is now empty. The teeter totter has tilted down to the TARGET side.



- What sort of "displacement" has occurred when the transference all transpired within the closed system of the two tanks connected via a hose?
- How would the atmospheric stack know to push down more on the TARGET side as it fills up with gas?
That does not happen.

What does not happen?
That in your picture does not happen.

Ok, the propane tank on the right is full and under pressure. The tank on the left is empty. I open the valve on the full tank, the propane runs through the hose and fills the empty tank until both are at equilibrium. The tanks now weight the same and the teeter totter balances accordingly.



How does that happen via ‘displacement’ and/or the atmospheric stack when it is a closed system and nothing is subjected to either of those two conditions?

What displacement has occurred, and how much, as to be added to the stack just above the previously empty tank on the left that it is now pushed down and level with the previously full tank on the right? How does the stack know to push down on the tank on the left?

You say something about equal and opposite reactions and expansion/contraction. So even though the tanks are the same size, when the valve is opened are you saying that the right hand tank is physically getting smaller so as to displace less atmosphere and rising up - As the left hand tank fills, it’s physically getting bigger so as to displace more atmosphere thereby being pushed down? If so, do they then both physically reverse their sizes so that they end up the same size again?

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #543 on: September 21, 2020, 02:26:30 AM »
What is the force. Explain what's happening.
Why? The entire point of it was to show it isn't balancing mass.
I don't need a full explanation to show it isn't balancing mass.
Again, the simple fact you can attach a helium balloon to one side and place a less massive object on the other (or nothing at all), shows that it isn't balancing mass.
The fact that you can put it underwater and attach a massive block of wood to one side and a small steel weight to the other and have the side with the steel weight go down shows it is not balancing mass.

Fort every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
And like I said, that is already there.
The source tank has its pressure lowered while the tank being refilled has it increase.
The source tank has its total mass (including contents) lower, while the tank being refilled has it increase.
That is your action and reaction.
There is no need to invoke the external atmosphere.

There's a reason you see ice buildup when transferring this stuff
Yes, the expansion of the gas results in a lowering of the temperature. This results in heat being conducted through the thin metal walls resulting in the humid air outside the container condensing onto the container.

If it was actually about magical reactions with the atmosphere only one of the 2 containers involved should get cold, not both. That is because one has its pressure drop while the other has the pressure increase.
So it clearly has nothing to do with the container expanding or contracting against the atmosphere.

I explained it and you decided to ignore it and say I didn't. I can't help you if you won't help yourself.
No, I pointed out the problem, the massive difference between weight and pressure, and asked you fairly simple questions which you avoided as you have no coherent model.
This is your typical behaviour. When you reach a point you can't explain you just assert it has already been explained and dodge with whatever you can.
I can help myself. I have done so and realised your model is pure nonsense. Stop acting like I am the problem just because I can see through your nonsense and point out massive problems with it.

If you think you have explained it, then it should be easy for you to address the points:
You have the addition of an object displacing air and increasing the pressure.
You are yet to say just what effect (i.e. direction and magnitude) this will have on a scale with a 1 kg weight, inside this closed system, other than it wont be the full 1 kg introduced.
While we know that the air pressure will increase and be read by a pressure gauge.
Likewise you are yet to address why the pressure gauge records an increase while the scale does not.

Your attempt at an explanation for why the scale does not is an explanation for why air pressure (which is separate from the pressure gradient for buoyancy) does not contribute to weight, and thus why weight is separate from the other.
Your other attempt at an explanation instead indicates that the object introduced should not increase the pressure (even though that is observed), unless it is sitting on the pressure gauge as it uses the floor of the container for resistance, not the pressure gauge nor the scale.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #544 on: September 21, 2020, 04:36:12 AM »
Ok, the propane tank on the right is full and under pressure. The tank on the left is empty. I open the valve on the full tank, the propane runs through the hose and fills the empty tank until both are at equilibrium. The tanks now weight the same and the teeter totter balances accordingly.



How does that happen via ‘displacement’ and/or the atmospheric stack when it is a closed system and nothing is subjected to either of those two conditions?

What displacement has occurred, and how much, as to be added to the stack just above the previously empty tank on the left that it is now pushed down and level with the previously full tank on the right? How does the stack know to push down on the tank on the left?
Because a larger pressure is pushing into it.


Quote from: Stash

You say something about equal and opposite reactions and expansion/contraction. So even though the tanks are the same size, when the valve is opened are you saying that the right hand tank is physically getting smaller so as to displace less atmosphere and rising up - As the left hand tank fills, it’s physically getting bigger so as to displace more atmosphere thereby being pushed down? If so, do they then both physically reverse their sizes so that they end up the same size again?
Yep. Mad isn't it, to think that can happen.
However, you will never physically see this on something so dense, yet at times you'll certainly hear it.
Nobody would believe an iron tyre could be put onto a train wheel but it happens by expansion and contraction of that steel.

See what I mean?

I know....I know....I know.....but atmosphere just isn't that strong.;...right?
Dense displacement of it....is.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #545 on: September 21, 2020, 04:41:59 AM »

No, I pointed out the problem, the massive difference between weight and pressure, and asked you fairly simple questions which you avoided as you have no coherent model.
This is your typical behaviour. When you reach a point you can't explain you just assert it has already been explained and dodge with whatever you can.

The effort I'm putting in...one against many....I'd say I am answering and explaining my side.
You refusing to accept it is not my problem.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #546 on: September 21, 2020, 08:02:13 AM »
Ok, the propane tank on the right is full and under pressure. The tank on the left is empty. I open the valve on the full tank, the propane runs through the hose and fills the empty tank until both are at equilibrium. The tanks now weight the same and the teeter totter balances accordingly.



How does that happen via ‘displacement’ and/or the atmospheric stack when it is a closed system and nothing is subjected to either of those two conditions?

What displacement has occurred, and how much, as to be added to the stack just above the previously empty tank on the left that it is now pushed down and level with the previously full tank on the right? How does the stack know to push down on the tank on the left?
Because a larger pressure is pushing into it.


Quote from: Stash

You say something about equal and opposite reactions and expansion/contraction. So even though the tanks are the same size, when the valve is opened are you saying that the right hand tank is physically getting smaller so as to displace less atmosphere and rising up - As the left hand tank fills, it’s physically getting bigger so as to displace more atmosphere thereby being pushed down? If so, do they then both physically reverse their sizes so that they end up the same size again?
Yep. Mad isn't it, to think that can happen.
However, you will never physically see this on something so dense, yet at times you'll certainly hear it.
Nobody would believe an iron tyre could be put onto a train wheel but it happens by expansion and contraction of that steel.

See what I mean?

I know....I know....I know.....but atmosphere just isn't that strong.;...right?
Dense displacement of it....is.

So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #547 on: September 21, 2020, 02:26:33 PM »
The effort I'm putting in...one against many....I'd say I am answering and explaining my side.
You are not explaining, you are continually avoiding the issue.
You refusing to accept that is not my problem, it is your problem, as it entirely a problem with your model and its inability to be consistent with itself and reality.

Once more, what happens to the scale with the 1 kg weight?
Does its reading increase, decrease or remain the same? If it doesn't remain the same, by what magnitude does it change?

Your "explanation" for why this increase in pressure/displacement due to the extra 1 kg mass introduced is because this pressure acts all over the scale. If this is the case, why doesn't that apply for air in general, meaning air is not the cause of the downwards force?
Another part of your justification is that the new 1 kg block is not using the scale for resistance, so why doesn't the same apply to a pressure sensor? As the weight is using the floor for resistance, why does the pressure sensor register a change in pressure?

These are serious issues for your model.
Your continued avoidance of these simple, serious issues shows that deep down you know your model doesn't work.

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JJA

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #548 on: September 21, 2020, 04:38:31 PM »
So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?

What's worse is even that explanation wouldn't make sense.  Because if you had a container with a gas that you heated, it would expand and get lighter. The opposite of what's being claimed here, that it expands and gets heavier.

Maybe atmosphere stacks are sentient. :)

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #549 on: September 21, 2020, 10:12:33 PM »


So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?
It's not about the atmosphere knowing. It's about the atmosphere equalising what mass is put against it.

Whatever is taken from the atmosphere, has to be replaced.....equally.

It's just a matter of getting your head around it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #550 on: September 21, 2020, 10:15:40 PM »

Another part of your justification is that the new 1 kg block is not using the scale for resistance, so why doesn't the same apply to a pressure sensor? As the weight is using the floor for resistance, why does the pressure sensor register a change in pressure?


It doesn't apply to the pressure sensor because.....like I told you not too far back, ago......the pressure sensor uses a diaphragm as it's one way pressure resistance.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #551 on: September 21, 2020, 10:25:29 PM »
So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?

What's worse is even that explanation wouldn't make sense.  Because if you had a container with a gas that you heated, it would expand and get lighter. The opposite of what's being claimed here, that it expands and gets heavier.

Maybe atmosphere stacks are sentient. :)
Understand the stacking system and why pressures increase and decrease within it and why displacement of it is relevant.....then you may start to understand.
All I see is brush off without even bothering....which is fine but it doesn't help you.

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Stash

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #552 on: September 21, 2020, 10:53:42 PM »


So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?
It's not about the atmosphere knowing. It's about the atmosphere equalising what mass is put against it.

Whatever is taken from the atmosphere, has to be replaced.....equally.

It's just a matter of getting your head around it.

That doesn't answer the question. How does the displacement of the atmosphere only affect one object and not another a meter away? For instance we have two teeter toters with tanks on them. In our first set is as described before; the full tank is transferring gas to the empty one. The second set has the same set up, right next to the first. As the tank being filled the in the first set it is expanding, thereby displacing and making the atmosphere push more down on it. Why isn't that expansion/displacement also pushing down on the empty tank right next to it on the second teeter totter? How does the atmosphere know to only push down on the one tank on the first teeter totter and not on the tank on the second teeter totter?

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #553 on: September 21, 2020, 11:24:45 PM »
It doesn't apply to the pressure sensor because.....like I told you not too far back, ago......the pressure sensor uses a diaphragm as it's one way pressure resistance.
So?
That doesn't address the issue at all.
Why does the air care what the air pressure sensor is? The 1 kg block added is not using it for resistance. It is using the floor of the chamber, so by that reasoning, it should record no change in pressure.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #554 on: September 22, 2020, 01:36:31 AM »
That doesn't answer the question. How does the displacement of the atmosphere only affect one object and not another a meter away?
the atmosphere is affecting every object, including  all of the 4 tanks, as well as the see saws.


Quote from: Stash

 For instance we have two teeter toters with tanks on them. In our first set is as described before; the full tank is transferring gas to the empty one. The second set has the same set up, right next to the first. As the tank being filled the in the first set it is expanding, thereby displacing and making the atmosphere push more down on it. Why isn't that expansion/displacement also pushing down on the empty tank right next to it on the second teeter totter? How does the atmosphere know to only push down on the one tank on the first teeter totter and not on the tank on the second teeter totter?
The atmosphere will react to any tank that is acted against it, in equal terms.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #555 on: September 22, 2020, 01:39:44 AM »
It doesn't apply to the pressure sensor because.....like I told you not too far back, ago......the pressure sensor uses a diaphragm as it's one way pressure resistance.
So?
That doesn't address the issue at all.
Why does the air care what the air pressure sensor is? The 1 kg block added is not using it for resistance. It is using the floor of the chamber, so by that reasoning, it should record no change in pressure.
Displacement of the 1kg of measured mass of atmosphere added to the pressure on the diaphragm.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #556 on: September 22, 2020, 02:27:29 AM »
Displacement of the 1kg of measured mass of atmosphere added to the pressure on the diaphragm.
So why doesn't that same displacement act on the scale and the weight, pushing that down further?

You can try to provide an answer for one of the 2, but that directly contradicts what is observed for the other one.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #557 on: September 22, 2020, 05:14:36 AM »
Perhaps you could draw some diagrams

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #558 on: September 22, 2020, 10:51:06 PM »
Displacement of the 1kg of measured mass of atmosphere added to the pressure on the diaphragm.
So why doesn't that same displacement act on the scale and the weight, pushing that down further?

You can try to provide an answer for one of the 2, but that directly contradicts what is observed for the other one.
They all get pushed down.

A scale is set to zero in atmospheric conditions. The scale plate now relies on any mass displacing atmosphere upon that scale plate to resist it by spring (as an instance) and that resistance is shown on the measuring readout, as weight.

The diaphragm works similar , except it resists atmospheric pressure build up against that membrane.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #559 on: September 22, 2020, 10:54:23 PM »
Perhaps you could draw some diagrams
Maybe you draw what you think is happening and I'll use it and tweak it to show what I believe is happening.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #560 on: September 23, 2020, 05:03:35 AM »
Someone drew gas tanks on a seesaw.
You didnt critic it.
You waved it away.

Please draw your own diagranms

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #561 on: September 23, 2020, 07:24:05 AM »
Someone drew gas tanks on a seesaw.
You didnt critic it.
You waved it away.

Please draw your own diagranms
Let's start really simple. Tell me what you would like to understand that you can't grasp..


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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #562 on: September 23, 2020, 09:54:10 AM »
Someone drew gas tanks on a seesaw.
You didnt critic it.
You waved it away.

Please draw your own diagranms
Let's start really simple. Tell me what you would like to understand that you can't grasp..

Yes let's.

Diagram of stacked air and how it applies pressure to hold me to the ground.


If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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Themightykabool

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #563 on: September 23, 2020, 11:02:56 AM »
To extend -

Diagram of stacked air and how it hold me to the ground when all measurement shows that air pressure decreases as you go up away from the ground (which is why helium and hotair balloons float).

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JJA

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #564 on: September 23, 2020, 11:06:33 AM »
So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?

What's worse is even that explanation wouldn't make sense.  Because if you had a container with a gas that you heated, it would expand and get lighter. The opposite of what's being claimed here, that it expands and gets heavier.

Maybe atmosphere stacks are sentient. :)
Understand the stacking system and why pressures increase and decrease within it and why displacement of it is relevant.....then you may start to understand.
All I see is brush off without even bothering....which is fine but it doesn't help you.

I've read pages and pages and pages of your posts, it's not me, it's you.  :P

You still can't explain how gas moving between two containers on a sea-saw would cause it to even out. The containers don't expand or contract, so how does the 'air stack' know what's in each of them?

You have yet to explain this.  Maybe you need to understand your own theory first.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #565 on: September 23, 2020, 03:02:05 PM »
They all get pushed down.
Which means the scale should record a significant increase in weight.

A scale is set to zero in atmospheric conditions. The scale plate now relies on any mass displacing atmosphere upon that scale plate to resist it by spring (as an instance) and that resistance is shown on the measuring readout, as weight.
The diaphragm works similar , except it resists atmospheric pressure build up against that membrane.
At a basic level, the 2 work in the same way.
A scale plate has some force push it down, with a spring resisting this force. The spring provides a counter force depending upon how much it is compressed, until the 2 forces are balanced, with the amount of compression in the spring (and thus displacement of the plate) used to measure the force, which is scaled to a mass reading based upon g.
The pressure gauge works the same, but instead of just having a scale plate in the atmosphere, it has an air-tight diaphragm which separates 2 regions, and the air pushes down, and the measured force scaled to pressure based upon the size of the diaphragm.

If the atmosphere is causing the force on both, then both should be affected the same.
Introducing the additional 1 kg weight into the chamber, even when supported by the floor of the chamber rather than the pressure gauge, should result in more atmosphere being displaced and thus a greater push on both the scale and the pressure gauge, with both recording a similar, significant increase.
Conversely, if the new weight using the floor of the container for resistance means it doesn't cause the air to push other things down more then neither should record an increase.

Your justification for why the pressure gauge is affected also applies to the scale meaning it should be affected as well.
Your 2 separate justifications for why the scale is not affected has one apply to the scale not being affected by the air pressure at all and weight not being the result of air pressure/displacement of air, while the other applies equally to the pressure gauge indicating neither should be affected.

With the atmosphere causing the reading on the scale, there is no justification for why one should be affected and not the other.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #566 on: September 23, 2020, 10:11:18 PM »
Someone drew gas tanks on a seesaw.
You didnt critic it.
You waved it away.

Please draw your own diagranms
Let's start really simple. Tell me what you would like to understand that you can't grasp..

Yes let's.

Diagram of stacked air and how it applies pressure to hold me to the ground.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #567 on: September 23, 2020, 10:14:46 PM »
To extend -

Diagram of stacked air and how it hold me to the ground when all measurement shows that air pressure decreases as you go up away from the ground (which is why helium and hotair balloons float).

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #568 on: September 23, 2020, 10:29:40 PM »

And why does it compress above, but merely sit on the stack below?

Let's start really simple. Tell me what you would like to understand that you can't grasp..
How bout how the air pushes down a stack of objects.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #569 on: September 23, 2020, 11:17:16 PM »
So the literally imperceptible immeasurable amount that the canisters expand and contract have that much of an impact on the atmosphere of the entire earth as to cause the stack to push down on one and let up on the other until they balance out? How does the atmosphere know which one to push down on? How does the atmosphere choose?

What's worse is even that explanation wouldn't make sense.  Because if you had a container with a gas that you heated, it would expand and get lighter. The opposite of what's being claimed here, that it expands and gets heavier.

Maybe atmosphere stacks are sentient. :)
Understand the stacking system and why pressures increase and decrease within it and why displacement of it is relevant.....then you may start to understand.
All I see is brush off without even bothering....which is fine but it doesn't help you.

I've read pages and pages and pages of your posts, it's not me, it's you.  :P

You still can't explain how gas moving between two containers on a sea-saw would cause it to even out. The containers don't expand or contract, so how does the 'air stack' know what's in each of them?

You have yet to explain this.  Maybe you need to understand your own theory first.
I know my own theory. It's been explained. You simply do not know it but think you do.

Your belief that nothing contracts and expands with containers is your issue. You know they do but you just can't comprehend the pressures that are changing to make this happen.

I could go from the very basic up to the steel containers like those on the see saw but I just know it'll be lost....as simple as it is.

I'll give a it a go and trust me I'm not expecting anything back of acceptance.

Let's go right back down to the basic containers and how atmosphere acts.
We will start off with a balloon.
We fill the balloon with a gas and the balloon expands due to the gas being compressed inside and pushing against the external atmosphere but only by the amount it's already taken from it in order to inflate/expand that balloon.
The skin of that balloon is not stretched to the point of exploding due to the atmosphere inside of it being compressed much more into a smaller space with balloon walls resisting the internal compression/crush aided by the external atmospheric crush.
Take away that external crush and the balloon is already breached because it expands with little resistance.
However, this would only be happening in atmosphere where there is much less resistance...which is higher up....so we'll leave this bit as it's just there for clarity if we need to get to it.


Ok, so how do we hold  more gas in a container?
Let's use a rubber water bottle, the one you use for bed.
Fill that with gas and you find it can hold more compressed gas than the balloon...but what it hold is only taken from the atmosphere/Earth.
The skin once again will stretch. It will expand due to internal compression but it will hold much more atmosphere due to it's higher skin resistance.


We could go on with clear to see expansion of rubbers and such.

However, let's more rigid plastic.
Pressurise it and you will notic it bulge slightly.
Same with thinner metals.

However, if you use more rigid resistance like thicker steel and even thicker plastic, you can massively pressurise it and even condense it into liquid without visually seeing any expansion....but it's there.
The difference is, we are talking super compression within and normal atmospheric 14/15 pounds per square inch of pressure externally, which is a massive aid in stopping the expansion of the gases/liquid, just as the smaller internal make up of the container is for holding that pressure.
You see, the container is being kept from expanding by the much denser make up and that much denser make up is already displacing it's own dense structure of atmosphere, as is, with it's material.

However, it still expands and contracts, depending on circumstances....but you can't see it, yet you can certainly hearit at times.
I know, I know.....but it can't expand enough to cater for change.

It does. It does this with the aid of atmosphere. It has to do this in equal terms, just like the balloon....etc....all within the atmospheric stack any object finds itself in.