Sea and air pressure

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Sea and air pressure
« on: May 20, 2020, 08:58:28 AM »
Hello. Reading recent threads with sandokhan, he ofter brought pressire of water/air in it.

(Pharaphasing)

For example, why doesn's bathroom scale measure tons of atmosphere above it, or why doesn't water crush down life inside it? This, as far as I see,it has goal to debunk gravity.


Form google Search i found this:

"So the pressure of the atmosphere is the same as lying under 10 m of water. However, we don't feel the weight of atmosphere. This is because the pressure pushes in all directions."

http://resources.schoolscience.co.uk/BAMA/11-14/aerosch4pg1.html




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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 09:02:13 AM »
Why donít you tell us why you think a scale doesnít read in the tons.
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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 09:12:49 AM »
Why donít you tell us why you think a scale doesnít read in the tons.

Beacuse i didn't think about units


Why doesn't it break?

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2020, 09:14:09 AM »
We canít keep teaching you basic physics. You need to help yourself as well.

You posted the answer already. And in fact objects weigh less in air.
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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2020, 09:16:07 AM »
We can’t keep teaching you basic physics. You need to help yourself as well.

You posted the answer already. And in fact objects weigh less in air.

Sandokhan shoud have used google. I thought he will come here

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2020, 09:18:40 AM »
I should add there is 14.7 psi acting on objects at sea level.
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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2020, 10:56:16 AM »
Why donít you tell us why you think a scale doesnít read in the tons.

 da ;All scales come with an adjustment to set to zero when nothing is on it.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2020, 11:15:50 AM »
Iím aware of zeroing and tareing out a scale. Itís not blanking out the atmosphere.
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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2020, 11:43:07 AM »
Iím aware of zeroing and tareing out a scale. Itís not blanking out the atmosphere.
the design of a scale accounts for atmosphere as zero, so you are measuring what is placed on the scale.
You are measuring the difference between something on the scale and nothing on the scale.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2020, 11:55:44 AM »
No the design of the scale is independent of air pressure. Changes in environmental conditions can be zeroed out. I worry more about temperature and when people move my scale so it ends up not level.

As I stated, objects actually weigh less in the presence of air due to buoyancy.
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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2020, 12:47:47 PM »
I still don't get up why we aren't smashed by tons of atmosphere?

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JJA

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2020, 02:32:39 PM »
I still don't get up why we aren't smashed by tons of atmosphere?

Imagine blowing up a small balloon in your hands, and squeezing it until it flattens.

Now you start pumping air into it, and eventually it will start to expand again.  If you put just enough air inside to equal the force your squeezing with, it's stable.

That's us.  The air is pressing down on us, but our insides are pressurized too.

Another way to think about it is to take a jar to the bottom of the ocean.  It will be crushed.  But if you take an open jar down there and THEN put the lid on, it's fine.  It's under immense pressure, but the inside is under the same pressure as the outside.

The key with pressure is things explode or get crushed when there is a DIFFERENCE of pressure. If everything is pressurized to the same level it, doesn't matter if it's a vacuum or the center of Jupiter. Just don't take that jar from Jupiter out before opening it. :o

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 02:38:53 PM »
For example, why doesn's bathroom scale measure tons of atmosphere above it, or why doesn't water crush down life inside it? This, as far as I see,it has goal to debunk gravity.
Form google Search i found this:

"So the pressure of the atmosphere is the same as lying under 10 m of water. However, we don't feel the weight of atmosphere. This is because the pressure pushes in all directions."
Pretty much.
The pressure doesn't just push down on top of the scale.
It also goes underneath the scale and pushes it up, with a force almost equal to it.
That means the net force on the scale from the atmosphere is 0.

(At a more technical level, the atmosphere above actually compressing the atmosphere below making the atmosphere below be at a greater pressure. This happens in any fluid and means there will be a greater force from pressure acting on the bottom of an object pushing it up than on the top of the object pushing it down. This is known as buoyancy.)

Likewise with a bottle (and even life) you have pressure inside and outside.

If you would like a demonstration of the pressure of the atmosphere crushing something then suck all the air out of a bottle.
Then the atmosphere will crush the bottle.
You can even do this with the help of a plane and a balloon or cheap plastic bottle (A cheap one with a thin wall works best, glass and metal will likely be too strong).
When the plane is at altitude, the pressure inside is much lower than at sea level. So empty the fluid from the bottle and just have air inside it and seal it. Likewise inflate the balloon. Then watch what happens as the plane comes down. The balloon and bottle will be crushed by the increasing pressure of the atmosphere as they don't have the greater pressure inside.


But like much of the nonsense brought up by Sandy, this has nothing at all to do with round Earth vs flat Earth. Both RE and FE models (at least the FE models which are trying to match reality even slightly) have significant air pressure at sea level. Neither have you directly measure this pressure by it pushing down on a scale, because the pressure is pushing up on the scale.

It is just Sandy trying to pretend there is some massive problem with conventional science so Earth must be flat; and like always, completely failing.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 02:40:57 PM by JackBlack »

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 02:40:40 PM »
Itís 10,000 kg per square meter. Or like I said 14.7 pounds per square inch. As JJA said, that can be balanced from within.

Ever see a bed of nails? Step on one nail and it will go into you. Lay on a bed of nails and you are fine.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2020, 06:37:44 AM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is pounds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 07:59:30 AM by sceptimatic »

Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2020, 07:16:19 AM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
it is this fictional gravity that creates the pressure in the first place; it is the mass of the earth, including the atmosphere, the water, and everything else on the earth. pressure is in all directions, it is gravity that creates a direction for it.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2020, 07:55:30 AM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
Objects in low pressure environment do not weigh less.
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2020, 02:11:28 PM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
it is this fictional gravity that creates the pressure in the first place; it is the mass of the earth, including the atmosphere, the water, and everything else on the earth. pressure is in all directions, it is gravity that creates a direction for it.
Nope. Gravity is fictional to hide what's really going on, as far as I'm concerned...but obviously you're quite entitled to follow what you think is correct.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2020, 02:15:45 PM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
Objects in low pressure environment do not weigh less.
It depends on the scale for pressure.
A barometer would disagree with you.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2020, 02:57:34 PM »
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
Which would then mean the weight is based upon area, not mass as directly observed, and buoyancy wouldn't exist.
It would also mean that weight is based upon pressure, with lower pressure meaning less weight, unlike what is observed, were the weight actually slightly increases due to the lower pressure having less dense atmosphere and thus less buoyancy.
It would also mean that weight would also push you into walls and roofs and the like, with you still unable to explain why things are pushed down.

Nor fictional gravity required.
That's right, no fictional gravity required, nor your fictional denspressure nonsense, just real gravity.

It depends on the scale for pressure.
A barometer would disagree with you.
You mean how the mercury or whatever fluid you are using goes to a lesser height in the barometer, with a lower pressure?
Exactly as predicted by mainstream physics which you are yet to show a single problem with?
Just how is that disagreeing?

And why bring up a barometer when you can't explain it at all.
With a barometer, it is the height of the fluid that is determined by pressure, regardless of orientation.
If your nonsense was correct, the orientation would be irreverent, with it just being the pressure pushing it along the tube.

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sokarul

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2020, 05:46:30 PM »
The scale is built within the atmosphere and set within that atmosphere, at zero.
The atmosphere is ponds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
In terms of the scale, the plate is on a spring and that spring actsas that resistance to the above atmospheric push against the dense object placed upon it at set zero reading and you get the reading of that dense object resisting the above pressure upon the dense object, creating a man made3 weight measure.

Nor fictional gravity required.
Objects in low pressure environment do not weigh less.
It depends on the scale for pressure.
A barometer would disagree with you.
A barometer does not report weight.
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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2020, 12:50:34 AM »
The atmosphere is pounds per square inch only upon the density of the object resisting the atmospheric push down against the resistance of the object against the ground.
Which would then mean the weight is based upon area, not mass as directly observed, and buoyancy wouldn't exist.
Nope. The weight is merely a man made measurement based on the atmospheric pressure placed upon any dense material placed upon a spring loaded plate, or similar.
It's all about porosity of any material already saturated with atmospheric pressure, meaning less pressure push, against a less saturated material which resists that atmospheric push and so, causes the scale plate to compress much more.



It would also mean that weight is based upon pressure, with lower pressure meaning less weight, unlike what is observed, were the weight actually slightly increases due to the lower pressure having less dense atmosphere and thus less buoyancy.
On a scale plate it's counter productive in terms of man made weight reading as the scale alters with the lower pressure just as the lower pressure alters marginally on the mass of an object, negating change.
This is why a barometer could show the reality if you were to alter it to read weight measurements instead of atmospheric conditions.
You would then see what's really going on, instead of people hanging on to a pretentious gravity, in my opinion.

It would also mean that weight would also push you into walls and roofs and the like, with you still unable to explain why things are pushed down.
Nope.
Weight is nothing until its measured on a scale plate or likewise.
Things are pushed down because there's much more stacked atmosphere above you with your feet on the deck.
Pretty simple when looked at and absolute logical.
as for pushing you into walls. Only of there's a pressure differential that creates wind powerful enough to actually do that. Otherwise it's a balanced all round squeeze around you, horizontally....just like it is in a pool of water or sea, etc.

It depends on the scale for pressure.
A barometer would disagree with you.
You mean how the mercury or whatever fluid you are using goes to a lesser height in the barometer, with a lower pressure?
Exactly as predicted by mainstream physics which you are yet to show a single problem with?
Just how is that disagreeing?
The barometer proves what's happening with atmospheric push to raise the mercury up the tube or lower it when the push slightly lessens dependent on sun, moon and weather changes due to it all.
And why bring up a barometer when you can't explain it at all.
With a barometer, it is the height of the fluid that is determined by pressure, regardless of orientation.
If your nonsense was correct, the orientation would be irreverent, with it just being the pressure pushing it along the tube.
A barometer is easy explained in simple terms.
I explained it perfectly well before. You refusing to accept it is your business.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2020, 12:53:19 AM »

A barometer does not report weight.
Nope, but it could be set up to show it using the pressure push upon the mercury.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2020, 02:09:17 AM »
The weight is merely a man made measurement
No, it is very real and observable. Us being able to measure it doesn't magically mean it is man made.

It is also quite clearly not based upon atmospheric pressure, as already explained.
Your denpressure has been refuted every time you bring it up.

Before you spout any more garbage on it, tell us why it pushes us down, rather than against a wall or against the ceiling, or in every direction.

If you can't do that, it is entirely useless.

Things are pushed down because there's much more stacked atmosphere above you with your feet on the deck.
Except in a vacuum, where there is basically none, yet you fall just as much.
And when you are against a wall, there is more magical stacked atmosphere beside you away from the wall than between you and the wall, yet no magical attraction to the wall.
And when you are against a roof, where there is more magical stacked atmosphere below you, then between you and the roof, yet you don't get pushed up.

And of course, in free fall, with the atmosphere all around, and no reason at all for it to push you down.

In fact, even more insane as objects fall through the atmosphere, with the air below resisting their motion and pushing them up.
Even more insane with buoyant objects that are pushed up by the air.

So yes, pretty simple when looked at rationally, it is pure nonsense which in no ways describes why things fall or have weight.

Again, you need to explain why things are pushed down, and it clearly has nothing to do with a floor for support.

Otherwise it's a balanced all round squeeze around you, horizontally....just like it is in a pool of water or sea, etc.
See, and this just shows why it is pure nonsense.
Why is it magically balanced horizontally, but not vertically?


The barometer proves what's happening with atmospheric push to raise the mercury up the tube or lower it when the push slightly lessens dependent on sun, moon and weather changes due to it all.
It shows what is actually happening, with the pressure of the atmosphere pushing down on the exposed region of mercury, to pressurise the mercury, with that pressure being balanced by the pressure inside the tube due to the weight of the mercury.

The fact that you get the mercury pushing along a different length of tube depending on orientation shows it isn't the air magically causing weight.
It shows that weight and atmospheric pressure are 2 separate phenomenon.

I explained it perfectly well before. You refusing to accept it is your business.
You mean you repeatedly failed to explain it and ran away because you knew you couldn't?

Again, according to your delusional nonsense, there is absolutely no reason at all for it to be the height of the column of mercury. Instead it should be either the length of the mercury filling the tube, or the size of the air pocket at the end.
That means it should work just as well with the tube right side up or upside down, or any other angle.
Instead it is only observed to work with the tube pointing upwards at some angle, and then with a height, not length, proportional to the atmospheric pressure.

You have never explained why.

If you wish to disagree, then provide the explanation now. Tell us why it is the HEIGHT of the column, and why the orientation of the tube matters.
If you can't, you have no explanation.

Like it always has been, your model is a complete failure, completely incapable of explaining reality and needing to repeatedly contradict itself in order to pretend to do so.

Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2020, 07:43:28 AM »
The weight is merely a man made measurement
No, it is very real and observable. Us being able to measure it doesn't magically mean it is man made.

It is also quite clearly not based upon atmospheric pressure, as already explained.
Your denpressure has been refuted every time you bring it up.

Before you spout any more garbage on it, tell us why it pushes us down, rather than against a wall or against the ceiling, or in every direction.

If you can't do that, it is entirely useless.

Things are pushed down because there's much more stacked atmosphere above you with your feet on the deck.
Except in a vacuum, where there is basically none, yet you fall just as much.
And when you are against a wall, there is more magical stacked atmosphere beside you away from the wall than between you and the wall, yet no magical attraction to the wall.
And when you are against a roof, where there is more magical stacked atmosphere below you, then between you and the roof, yet you don't get pushed up.

And of course, in free fall, with the atmosphere all around, and no reason at all for it to push you down.

In fact, even more insane as objects fall through the atmosphere, with the air below resisting their motion and pushing them up.
Even more insane with buoyant objects that are pushed up by the air.

So yes, pretty simple when looked at rationally, it is pure nonsense which in no ways describes why things fall or have weight.

Again, you need to explain why things are pushed down, and it clearly has nothing to do with a floor for support.

Otherwise it's a balanced all round squeeze around you, horizontally....just like it is in a pool of water or sea, etc.
See, and this just shows why it is pure nonsense.
Why is it magically balanced horizontally, but not vertically?


The barometer proves what's happening with atmospheric push to raise the mercury up the tube or lower it when the push slightly lessens dependent on sun, moon and weather changes due to it all.
It shows what is actually happening, with the pressure of the atmosphere pushing down on the exposed region of mercury, to pressurise the mercury, with that pressure being balanced by the pressure inside the tube due to the weight of the mercury.

The fact that you get the mercury pushing along a different length of tube depending on orientation shows it isn't the air magically causing weight.
It shows that weight and atmospheric pressure are 2 separate phenomenon.

I explained it perfectly well before. You refusing to accept it is your business.
You mean you repeatedly failed to explain it and ran away because you knew you couldn't?

Again, according to your delusional nonsense, there is absolutely no reason at all for it to be the height of the column of mercury. Instead it should be either the length of the mercury filling the tube, or the size of the air pocket at the end.
That means it should work just as well with the tube right side up or upside down, or any other angle.
Instead it is only observed to work with the tube pointing upwards at some angle, and then with a height, not length, proportional to the atmospheric pressure.

You have never explained why.

If you wish to disagree, then provide the explanation now. Tell us why it is the HEIGHT of the column, and why the orientation of the tube matters.
If you can't, you have no explanation.

Like it always has been, your model is a complete failure, completely incapable of explaining reality and needing to repeatedly contradict itself in order to pretend to do so.

Correction:[ pulled vacuum] and it has to be vertical for a barometer to work.
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2020, 02:52:09 PM »
Correction:[ pulled vacuum] and it has to be vertical for a barometer to work.
What do you mean by pulled vacuum? I'm confused as to where it fits in.

Also, a barometer doesn't actually need to be vertical, it is just that is the best way to have it as that allows for the easiest measurements, and requires the shortest tube.
But it can work at an angle, but you still need to use the height of the column, not the length of the column along the tube.

Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 03:56:33 PM »
Correction:[ pulled vacuum] and it has to be vertical for a barometer to work.
What do you mean by pulled vacuum? I'm confused as to where it fits in.

Also, a barometer doesn't actually need to be vertical, it is just that is the best way to have it as that allows for the easiest measurements, and requires the shortest tube.
But it can work at an angle, but you still need to use the height of the column, not the length of the column along the tube.
the space at the top of the barometer is a vacuum, not air space. the wight of the Mercury pulls away from the top of the tube it is this space what is measured.
you fill the tube with Mercury invert the tube placing the open in into a bowl of mercury not allowing any air into the tube.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometer
The the universe has no obligation to makes sense to you.
The earth is a globe.

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JackBlack

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 05:29:56 PM »
the space at the top of the barometer is a vacuum, not air space.
Okay, that's what you meant.
Septicmatic claims that it is a small portion of air trapped inside which causes the height. That is why I referred to that.

the wight of the Mercury pulls away from the top of the tube it is this space what is measured.
No, the space above is not what is measured.
The top of the mercury is pretty much at 0 bar (more like 50 Pa, due to the vapour pressure of mercury).
Then the weight of the mercury compresses and thus pressurises the mercury below.
This pressure increases down the column of mercury, based upon gravity and the density and height of the column (but not the orientation).
On the outside, the air pressure pushes down on the surface (and up on the bottom of the container which in turn pushes on the mercury) pressurising it as well.

The height of the column naturally adjusts until the pressure due to the weight of the mercury in the column is equal to the external atmospheric pressure.
It is the height of the column which is measured, which when combined with the density of mercury and the strength of gravity, gives the atmospheric pressure.
A similar setup, has mercury in a U-tube, measuring the pressure differential between 2 vessels or a vessel and the atmosphere. Again, the weight of mercury causes the pressure to increase and the mercury naturally adjusts until the pressure at the bottom of each column (the bottom of the U-tube) is the same, with the difference in height corresponding to the measured pressure.
For small values, it can be useful to incline the tube such that a small change in height (from a small change in pressure) corresponds to a larger change in the position along the tube.

If the nonsense skeppy claims is true, then it has nothing at all to do with the weight, and the mercury should move until the alleged trapped portion of air is at equal pressure to the outside air. This should work regardless of the orientation of the device, and means the pressure should be based upon the size of the air bubble intentionally introduced compared to what it is measured as under test conditions, and the pressure that it was initially introduced at.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2020, 01:11:10 AM »
The weight is merely a man made measurement
No, it is very real and observable. Us being able to measure it doesn't magically mean it is man made.

Of course it's man made. It's a measurement of dense mass upon a man made scale to read numbered measurements of it, which is, as I said, measuring the resistance of the dense mas against atmospheric push upon it, resisted by the scale spring to give a reading.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Sea and air pressure
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2020, 01:41:36 AM »
Septicmatic claims that it is a small portion of air trapped inside which causes the height. That is why I referred to that.
The space left at the top of the tube has extreme expanded atmospheric gas. It is not a true vacuum as people perceive a true vacuum to be.
You cannot have free space devoid of anything.

It's this reason as to why the mercury can be pushed up the tube by the atmospheric pressure placed upon it, because the resistance of the mercury is minimal due to the gases inside being able to be compressed very very easily, as if...I  say " as if" there was no resistance, at all, which, as I've said, cannot be correct.

If you were to leave normal atmosphere inside the tube and fill it with mercury, the mercury would not be able to compress that more compact atmosphere and therefore will not give any meaningful reading for purpose...for obvious reasons.