Is there a Missing Orbital Sagnac Effect?

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rabinoz

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Is there a Missing Orbital Sagnac Effect?
« on: May 05, 2020, 11:09:06 PM »
So there is a very slight orbital Sagnac effect and a very slight nett effect the change of solar (and lunar) but both are so far negligible.

This is how rabinoz lives his life: a constant stream of lies.

He lies to himself each and every instant.

Let's see just how negligible it is.

Algebraic approach to time-delay data analysis: orbiting case K Rajesh Nayak and J-Y Vinet
[https://www.cosmos.esa.int/documents/946106/1027345/TDI_FOR_.PDF/2bb32fba-1b8a-438d-9e95-bc40c32debbe
This is an IOP article, published by the prestigious journal Classic and Quantum Gravity:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/22/10/040/meta
In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.
That is completely irrelevant because LISA is not orbiting the Earth.

And I'd believe Neil Ashby, who understands GR, over one like YOU any day.

Quote from: sandokhan
The order of the orbital Sagnac is huge, some 60 times larger than the rotational Sagnac effect.
In the LISA geometry, NOT in the GPS geometry!

Quote from: sandokhan
This has to be canceled by the orbital-velocity effect, which has to be just as large.
No, it does not! That was in the LISA geometry, NOT in the GPS geometry!

Quote from: sandokhan
Since they do not show up on the GPS clocks, it means Ashby's argument is completely false.
No, irrespective doesn't because you are falsely comparing the LISA array orbiting the Sun with the GPS satellites orbiting the Earth.

If you do not accept Einstein's GR read this by your hero Ching-Chuan Su's who explains is with his "local-ether model" in:
IOPScience: Reinterpretation of the Michelson-Morley experiment based on the GPS Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su

Especially the section:
GPS propagation model and Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su And you might note this little extract:
Quote from: Ching-Chuan Su
Thereby, the wave propagation in GPS can be viewed in a classical way, if an ECI frame, rather than the ECEF or any other frame, is selected as the unique propagation frame. Thus the wave propagation in GPS depends on the Earth's rotation, but is entirely independent of the Earth's orbital motion. The actual value of the Sagnac range correction due to the Earth's rotation depends on the positions of satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m. The GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning. Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly, if the Sagnac correction due to the Earth's rotation is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital motion of the Earth around the Sun has a linear speed about 100 times that of the Earth's rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be entirely impossible if the ignored correction due to orbital motion is really necessary. Thereby, it is concluded that the wave propagation in GPS is actually in accord with the classical propagation in an ECI frame.

If you refuse to get up-to-date and accept Einstein's GR the just believe C-C. Su's local ether model.

Quote from: sandokhan
This effect is covered in: Why there is no noon-midnight red shift in the GPS by Neil Ashby and Marc Weiss.

Cut the crap.
So your are accusing Neil Ashby and Marc Weiss or writing "crap" - who do you think you are?
I'll believe Neil Ashby, Marc Weiss and C-C. Su before YOU any day!

Quote from: sandokhan
The Schwarzschild metric in the neighborhood of a spherically symmetric gravitational source is characterized by the invariant length of the differential line element:


Did you forget that the ONE "spherically symmetric gravitational source" must be the only significant mass affecting the curving of spacetime?
And here you are trying to use the Schwarzschild metric to find the significance and the Sun's mass.

Quote from: sandokhan
U = GM/r is the gravitational potential

In the curved spacetime of GR, the gravitational time dilation plays a fundamental role. It predicts a gravitational slowing of the GPS clocks by the solar gravitational potential given by the equation:

[eq. (2)]
And time-dilation also affects the clock rate - did you forget that? Neil Ashby and Marc Weiss didn't!

So you'd better read this again and learn how it's done:
Why there is no noon-midnight red shift in the GPS by Neil Ashby and Marc Weiss.
Failing that stick to C-C. Su's local ether model.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 10:06:23 AM by boydster »

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2020, 11:34:28 PM »
You are making a fool of yourself by opening these threads, where again, you are unable to provide explanations.

Here is the drivel you write:

In the LISA geometry, NOT in the GPS geometry!

For LISA, the ORBITAL SAGNAC is 30 times greater than the ROTATIONAL SAGNAC, even because of the special geometry (the angle of the interferometer).

FOR THE GPS SATELLITES, THE ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 60 TIMES GREATER THAN THE ROTATIONAL SAGNAC.

Both are satellites which use interferometers, thus both the orbital Sagnac and the rotational Sagnac must be recorded.

No, irrespective doesn't because you are falsely comparing the LISA array orbiting the Sun with the GPS satellites orbiting the Earth.

A total embarrassment for you.

BOTH LISA AND GPS ARE ORBITING SATELLITES. LISA IS ORBITING THE EARTH, BOTH ARE ORBITING THE SUN. GPS SATELLITES ARE ORBITING THE EARTH, BOTH ARE ORBITING THE SUN, ACCORIDING TO HELIOCENTRICAL THEORY.

Here are you are, DENYING REALITY ON A MASSIVE SCALE, YOU WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEMS.


So there is a very slight orbital Sagnac effect and a very slight nett effect the change of solar (and lunar) but both are so far negligible.

This is how rabinoz lives his life: a constant stream of lies.

He lies to himself each and every instant.

Let's see just how negligible it is.



Algebraic approach to time-delay data analysis: orbiting case
K Rajesh Nayak and J-Y Vinet

https://www.cosmos.esa.int/documents/946106/1027345/TDI_FOR_.PDF/2bb32fba-1b8a-438d-9e95-bc40c32debbe

This is an IOP article, published by the prestigious journal Classic and Quantum Gravity:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/22/10/040/meta

In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.

This work is organized as follows: in section 2, we make an estimate of Sagnac phase
for individual laser beams of LISA by taking realistic orbital motion. Here we show that, in general, the residual laser noise because of Sagnac phase is much larger than earlier estimates.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The computations carried out by Dr. R.K. Nayak (over ten papers published on the subject) and Dr. J.Y. Vinet (Member of the LISA International Science Team), and published by prestigious scientific journals and by ESA, show that the orbital Sagnac is 30 times greater than the rotational Sagnac for LISA.



https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The formula is 2VL/c.


No orbital SAGNAC EFFECT, no rotation.


The calculations were performed by the best scientists in the world: ESA and CALTECH.

Yet, rabinoz lies to himself with this:

So there is a very slight orbital Sagnac effect and a very slight nett effect the change of solar (and lunar) but both are so far negligible.

Dr. Massimo Tinto, CALTECH:

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed.

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized.

ESA:

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.


This effect is covered in: Why there is no noon-midnight red shift in the GPS by Neil Ashby and Marc Weiss.

Cut the crap.

The Schwarzschild metric in the neighborhood of a spherically symmetric gravitational source is characterized by the invariant length of the differential line element:



U = GM/r is the gravitational potential

In the curved spacetime of GR, the gravitational time dilation plays a fundamental role. It predicts a gravitational slowing of the GPS clocks by the solar gravitational potential given by the equation:



[eq. (2)]

"The 24 GPS satellites move round earth in six equally spaced 12 hours period orbits, with an orbital radius of 25,560 km and their orbital plane making 55 degrees with the earth’s equator. In the case of GPS satellites, having orbital plane nearly parallel to the earth-sun axis, the total slowing of the atomic clocks, during the 6 hours closer then earth from the sun, would achieve 24 ns, which would be recovered during the 6 hours farther from the sun. The GPS clocks normally are all collectively synchronized with the master clocks on ground to within 0.1 ns (time for light to travel 3 cm) and their stability during the 12 hours period of their orbits is better than 0.5 ns. Hence, the corresponding 12 hours sinusoidal variation in the time display of the GPS clocks, predicted by GR, due to the solar field, would be two decimal orders of magnitude larger than the stability and precision of these clocks during the period of the 12 hours and thus would immediately and easily be observed.

As the gravitational potential U is a scalar, a stationary or a moving clock should display exactly the same gravitational slowing and the rate of clocks at different distances from the sun should run at considerable different rates, according to equation (2). However, the GPS clocks, moving with earth round the sun and, in their orbital motion, displacing their radial position from the sun by about 5.1 x 10^4, show no sign of the 12 hours periodic sinusoidal variation in the gravitational slowing."

On the other hand, the time dilation effect of the solar
gravitational field on the atomic clocks orbiting with
Earth round the Sun, which is predicted by GR but not
observed, is a highly precise observation. It exceeds by
orders of magnitude the experimental precision and
hence is infinitely more reliable. If the orbital motion of
Earth round the Sun suppresses the time dilation due to
the solar gravitational field and moreover does not show
the predicted relativistic time dilation due to this orbital
motion, then it seems reasonable that a clock in a satellite
orbiting round the Earth in a direct equatorial orbit or in a
jet flying round the Earth too should give no evidence of
such a relativistic time dilation. The relativistic time dilation
alleged in both these round the world Sagnac experiments
is in clear and frontal contradiction with the
absence of such a relativistic time dilation effect in the
case of the orbiting Earth round the Sun.

However, upon further reflection, it became
apparent that one significant complication with respect to
the two frames was not dealt with. Specifically, GPS was
compared in the two frames assuming that the earth’s
orbital velocity was constant.

What is the significance of this interim conclusion? We
have shown that, assuming the speed of light is isotropic
in the sun’s frame, the velocity of clocks on the spinning
earth will cause them to be biased by just the amount
needed to make it appear as if the speed of light is
actually isotropic on the earth.

However, the true believer in
SRT can argue that this is simply a coincidence and that it
is still the magic of SRT which automatically causes the
speed of light to be isotropic on the earth. There is no way
to refute his argument in this simplified case where we
have assumed that the direction of the orbital velocity
vector is constant. But, when the change in the orbital
velocity direction is allowed, we get an astonishing result.

By contrast, if SRT/GRT is
correct, we would expect that the clocks on earth and in
the GPS system would require an adjustment for the
effect of the sun’s differential gravitational potential.
Since clocks on earth and in the GPS system function
properly by ignoring the effect of the sun’s gravitational
potential, we must conclude that SRT/GRT is wrong.


The differential effect of the sun’s gravitational potential should cause the clocks farther from the sun to run faster than clocks closer to the sun.

THIS EFFECT IS TOTALLY MISSING FROM THE GPS CLOCKS.


Ronald Hatch explains the glaring error committed by Ashby in using the equivalence principle to deal with the solar gravitational potential:

It has been claimed by Ashby [20] that the reason the
effect of the sun’s differential gravitational potential on
clocks near the earth can be ignored is due to the
equivalence principle, i.e. that test bodies move along
straight lines in a local Lorentz frame. However,
according to Friedman [21] the local Lorentz frame is of
only infinitesimal extent and hardly applies to the earth
and its vicinity. Ashby’s claim is equivalent to the claim
found elsewhere [22] that the local frame rotates with the
orbit and that the sun’s differential gravitational potential
is canceled by “centripetal acceleration,” i.e. by the
differential velocity with respect to the sun. In other
words, it is claimed that the inertial frame indeed rotates
once per year. However, the GPS clocks clearly show
this argument is not valid. The orientation of the GPS
orbital planes does not rotate to maintain the same angle
with respect to the sun, so there is no differential velocity
orthogonal to the orbital plane. And there can be no
differential velocity within the orbital plane or else
Kepler’s laws would be violated. Thus, GPS clocks do not
suffer centripetal acceleration. Furthermore, if this
argument were correct, the differential gravitational
potential would be canceled in the sun’s frame as well.
The JPL reference document [7] and the Hill pulsar
document [19] clearly show that such a cancellation does
not occur.


The claim made by Ashby is false.

2. Neil Ashby (Nov. 1993) "Relativity and GPS," GPS World, pp 42-48

http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/Ronald_Hatch/Hatch-Relativity_and_GPS-II_1995.pdf (pg 3-5)

Ashby [2] calls upon the equivalence principle and uses an accelerating elevator to show that one would expect the wavelengths and frequency of photons to increase as they fall in a gravitational field. But this also violates the conservation of cycles and cannot be a valid explanation for the observed change in frequency.

Do electromagnetic waves pick up energy as they fall in a gravitational field? If it does, why isn't the observed increase in frequency doubled and the conservation of cycles violated?

Now we can see that photons falling in a gravitational field do not increase in energy.
Even though they do decrease in wavelength the frequency does not change. The
apparent change in frequency is caused by the change in frequency of the local unit of
comparison. Thus, claiming as Ashby did that the frequency of the GPS signals increase
as they fall is incorrect. It would violate the conservation of cycles. The apparent
gravitational increase in energy is not real. It appears to increase only because the
standard of comparison (the energy radiated by a similar atom at a decreased
gravitational potential) is decreased. The higher frequency of the GPS clock at its greater
gravitational potential is in fact the source of the increased frequency and decreased
wavelength of the received signal.


The most lethal experimental observation to GR is the absence
of the gravitational slowing of the GPS clocks, that is
predicted by GR, but not observed. According to GR, the
gravitational time dilation, due to a gravitational potential U
is given by T = T0(1 − 2U/c2
)
−1/2
, where T0 is the time
under U = 0. To first order, the predicted slowing of the
clocks is proportional to U/c2
. Hence, the effect of the solar
gravitational potential on the GPS clocks, having orbital
plane closely parallel to the earth-sun axis, during the 6 hours
closer from the sun, should cause a total delay of more than
24ns, which would be recovered during the 6 hours farther
from the sun. The corresponding 12 hours periodic sinusoidal
variation in the time display of the GPS clocks would
be more than two orders of magnitude larger than the stability
and precision of these clocks within this period. However,
observations show no sign of such variation.[10, 11] GR cannot
explain this absence because the gravitational potential is
a scalar.

http://www.hrpub.org/download/20150510/UJPA2-18403649.pdf


Moreover, Ashby is using calculations based on the false TGR, that is why he reaches the wrong conclusions.

This paper discusses the conceptual basis, founded on special and general relativity, for navigation using GPS.

If TGR is false, his calculations are useless.

Ashby's use the of the equivalence principle leads to the wrong conclusions.

His free fall explanation also fails the test of scientific scrutiny.

Some people claim that the absence of the gravitational
time dilation on the GPS clocks is due to cancellation by special
relativistic time dilation. However, a simple calculation
shows that special relativistic effects, due to the variation of
velocity of the GPS satellites within the solar non-rotating
reference, would be three orders of magnitude larger than
those, due to the solar gravitational potential would and too
are not observed. Others [19] claim that the absence is because
the GPS satellites together with earth are free falling in
the solar gravitational field. However, within this view, these
same GPS satellites are also free falling in the earth’s gravitational
field and notwithstanding show clearly the slowing
by the earth's gravitational field of ´ (8/c)^2.


The midnight problem is UNSOLVED, so Ashby cannot claim that the effects are negligible.


What Ashby is claiming is that the solar gravitational potential effect are so small they can be neglected.

However, this poses a huge problem.

The Ruderfer experiment proved the first NULL result in ether theory.

Analysis of the spinning Mossbauer experiments is a natural step toward analysis of the
slightly more complex and much larger-scale Global Positioning System (GPS). This
system constitutes a large scale near-equivalent to the spinning Mossbauer experiments.
The transit time between the satellite and ground-based receivers is routinely measured.
In addition, the atomic clocks on the satellite are carefully monitored; and high precision
corrections are provided as part of the information transmitted from the satellites.
Because the satellites and the receivers rotate at different rates (unlike the Mossbauer
experiments), a correction for the motion of the receiver during the transit time is
required. This correction is generally referred to as a Sagnac correction, since it adjusts
for anisotropy of the speed of light as far as the receiver is concerned. Why is there no
requirement for a Sagnac correction due to the earth’s orbital motion? Like the transit
time in the spinning Mossbauer experiments, any such effect would be completely
canceled by the orbital-velocity effect on the satellite clocks.


Specifically, there is substantial independent experimental evidence that clock speed always affects the clock frequency and, as the GPS system shows, the spin velocity of the earth clearly affects the clock rate. This being the case, the null result of the rotating Mössbauer experiments actually implies that an ether drift must exist or else the clock effect would not be canceled and a null result would not be present.


The order of the orbital Sagnac is huge, some 60 times larger than the rotational Sagnac effect.

This has to be canceled by the orbital-velocity effect, which has to be just as large.

Since they do not show up on the GPS clocks, it means Ashby's argument is completely false.

And time-dilation also affects the clock rate - did you forget that?

Read the above paragraphs again. STR dilation HAS ALREADY been dealt with.

You are lying not only to yourself, but to all of the readers.

You are unable to face reality: your cognitive dissonance precludes you from understanding what is going on.

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2020, 11:42:19 PM »
There is no missing orbital Saganac effect

Now, everyone can see that you are have a problem.

You are defying NASA/ESA/CALTECH.




https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f606/87008dd7b3e872c67770eaa9ada9128bbf8b.pdf

Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications:

For the interplanetary propagation, earth’s orbital
motion contributes to the Sagnac effect as well. This local-ether model
has been adopted to account for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s
motions in a wide variety of propagation phenomena, particularly the
global positioning system (GPS), the intercontinental microwave link,
and the interplanetary radar.

The peer reviewers at the Journal of Electromagnetic Waves and Applications agree that the orbital Sagnac is larger than the rotational Sagnac, that it is missing, and that a local-ether model has to be adopted in order to account for this fact.


https://web.archive.org/web/20170808104846/http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.


In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence. Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.

Published by the BULLETIN OF THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY, one of the most prestigious journals in the world today.

C.C. Su, "A Local-ether model of propagation of electromagnetic wave," in Bull. Am. Phys. Soc., vol. 45, no. 1, p. 637, Mar. 2000 (Minneapolis, Minnesota).

https://web.archive.org/web/20050217023926/https://www.ee.nthu.edu.tw/ccsu/










Both the rotational and the orbital motions of the earth together with the orbital
motion of the target planet contribute to the Sagnac
effect. But the orbital motion of the sun has no effects
on the interplanetary propagation.
On the other hand, as
the unique propagation frame in GPS and intercontinental
links is a geocentric inertial frame, the rotational motion
of the earth contributes to the Sagnac effect. But the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun and that of the
sun have no effects on the earthbound propagation.
By
comparing GPS with interplanetary radar, it is seen that
there is a common Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation
and a common null effect of the orbital motion of the sun
on wave propagation. However, there is a discrepancy in
the Sagnac effect due to earth’s orbital motion.
Moreover,
by comparing GPS with the widely accepted interpretation
of the Michelson–Morley experiment, it is seen that
there is a common null effect of the orbital motions on
wave propagation, whereas there is a discrepancy in the
Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation.


Based on this characteristic of uniqueness and switchability of the propagation frame,
we propose in the following section the local-ether model
of wave propagation to solve the discrepancies in the in-
fluences of earth’s rotational and orbital motions on the
Sagnac effect
and to account for a wide variety of propagation
phenomena.


Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.
Further, for the interstellar propagation where
the source is located beyond the solar system, the orbital
motion of the sun contributes to the interstellar Sagnac
effect as well.

Evidently, as expected, the proposed local-ether model
accounts for the Sagnac effect due to earth’s rotation and
the null effect of earth’s orbital motion in the earthbound
propagations in GPS and intercontinental microwave link
experiments. Meanwhile, in the interplanetary radar, it accounts
for the Sagnac effect due both to earth’s rotation
and to earth’s orbital motion around the sun.


Based on the local-ether model, the propagation is entirely
independent of the earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever and the velocity v for such an earthbound
experiment is referred to an ECI frame and hence
is due to earth’s rotation alone. In the original proposal,
the velocity v was supposed to incorporate earth’s orbital
motion around the sun. Thus, at least, v2/c2
=~ 10-8. Then the amplitude of the phase-difference variation
could be as large as π/3, when the wavelength is
0.6 µm and the path length is 10 m. However, as the velocity
v is the linear velocity due to earth’s rotation alone,
the round-trip Sagnac effect is as small as v2/c2∼ 10-12 which is merely 10-4 times that due to the orbital motion.



The Sagnac effect is a FIRST ORDER effect in v/c.

Even in the round-trip nature of the Sagnac effect, as it was applied in the Michelson-Morley experiment, thus becoming a second order effect within that context, we can see that the ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 10,000 TIMES GREATER than the rotational Sagnac effect.


Your statement has just been refuted and debunked: the orbital SAGNAC effect is missing.

You have to deal with the missing ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT, which you are not.

You are trolling this forum, again and again.



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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 12:12:02 AM »
GPS OPERATIONAL CONTROL SYSTEM SOFTWARE IGNORES SPECIAL RELATIVISTIC EFFECTS/LORENTZ TIME TRANSFORMATION

https://web.archive.org/web/20120205022334/tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf (page 11)

"But it's the absence of any explicit acknowledgment of special relativistic effects due to the speed of light being the same whenever measured by an observer, leading to the relativity of simultaneity and the associated Lorentz transformation physics - there's nothing of that at all modeled in the current system."

This is the main reason why N. Ashby introduced the Galilean time transformation t' = t between the inertial ECI and the rotating ECEF system:

http://www.ipgp.fr/~tarantola/Files/Professional/GPS/Ashby_2003.pdf (Sec. 2, equation (3))

GPS software uses the Newtonian or Galilean time transformation t' = t rather than t' = γ(t−xv/c2) for the calculation of the rotational Sagnac effect.

What would happen is the GPS software would incorporate the STR/Lorentz transformation effects? Then, no Sagnac effect correction would be recorded at all and the errors would amount to hundreds of nanoseconds (a timing error of one nanosecond can lead to a navigational error of 30 cm).


ASHBY IS IGNORING THE STR TIME DILATION SINCE HE KNOWS THAT BY INCORPORATING THE STR/LORENTZ TRANSFORMATION, THEN NO SAGNAC EFFECT WOULD BE RECORDED AT ALL.

Classical and Relativistic Derivation of the Sagnac Effect
Wolfgang Engelhardt
Max-Planck-Institut fur Plasmaphysik

http://aflb.ensmp.fr/AFLB-401/aflb401m820.pdf

Using the relativistic law of velocity addition, the author proves that the coherent beams leaving the beam splitter at the same time in opposite directions will return at the same time as they both travel at the same speed c.

In other words, the SRT correctly applied to a rotating Sagnac Interferometer does not predict the Sagnac Effect.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:13:54 AM by sandokhan »

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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2020, 12:28:30 AM »
You are making a fool of yourself by opening these threads, where again, you are unable to provide explanations.

Here is the drivel you write:

In the LISA geometry, NOT in the GPS geometry!
<< Repeated spam deleted. >>

This has to be canceled by the orbital-velocity effect, which has to be just as large.

Since they do not show up on the GPS clocks, it means Ashby's argument is completely false.

And time-dilation also affects the clock rate - did you forget that?

Read the above paragraphs again. STR dilation HAS ALREADY been dealt with.

You are lying not only to yourself, but to all of the readers.

You are unable to face reality: your cognitive dissonance precludes you from understanding what is going on.
So you claim that C-C. Su, Ashby and Weiss are all liars and that their "cognitive dissonance precludes them from understanding what is going on".
Because I did little more than refer to their writings.

I suggest again that you climb down from that high horse, stop pretending that you know better than  the experts like C-C. Su, Ashby, Weiss and even Albert Einstein.

Then start debating like a rational human being.

What so-called "paradox" should I raise next. Maybe you ridiculous:
Here is the Double Forces of Attractive Gravitation Paradox: both elementary and logical.

From a classic text on mechanics:
When science teachers are asked how does gravity work, they answer in this manner:

Gravity is a force.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Gravity is the reason one object orbits another. An analogy is swinging a ball on a string over your head. The string is like gravity, and it keeps the ball in orbit. If you let go of the string, the ball flies away from you. (Dr. Eric Christian, April 2011)
http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=4569 (UCSB Science Line)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Then, the Mass Attraction and General Relativity Attraction concepts are not viable models for the cause of gravity and inertia.

Applying any "attractive" force model to the Earth Moon dynamic forces, we obtain this system:

The Earth’s attractive gravitation balances the orbital centrifugal force of the Moon.
The Moon’s attractive gravitation balances the orbital centrifugal force of the Earth.

At first this may seem like an orderly and balanced attractive force system; however,... the following paradox exists. If the seat, source and cause of the "apparent" attraction forces are "internal" to each of the bodies...the attraction concept produces twice the force that is necessary to balance the centrifugal orbital forces of a planet moon system. The concept of "attraction" between bodies requires that the force “from” each separate body acts on the remote body,-- and equally on the originating body. Another example of a balanced system is a rope under tension; each end has an equal amount of opposing force. As noted by Newton's third law of motion, " To every action there is always an opposed  equal reaction".

This double force paradox is directly applicable to the "mass attraction",... the General Relativity “attraction” and all other attraction type concepts of gravity.

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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 12:29:23 AM »
There is no missing orbital Saganac effect
<< Ignored until you learn to identify who you are replying to. >>
And I, for one, have no idea who you were replying too because no one apart from YOU wrote:
"There is no missing orbital Saganac effect".

Now stop these inane claims and believe that Su, Ashby and Weiss know far more than YOU about GPS systems.

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 12:36:35 AM »
Further embarrassment for rabinoz the clown.

https://sci.esa.int/web/lisa

The LISA trio of satellites to detect gravitational waves from space has been selected as the third large-class mission in ESA's Science programme.

https://www.space.com/37603-lisa-pathfinder-gravitational-wave-tech-mission-end.html

LISA, slated to launch in 2034, will consist of three satellites positioned in a triangle.


This clown and paid shill has spent almost 365 days online on this forum, a whole YEAR of his life, learning by heart flat earth theory, and comes back each and every day, 8-10 hours online, to embarrass himself even further in pointless debates, where he always loses the debate.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:38:10 AM by sandokhan »

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 12:46:56 AM »
<< Totally irrelevant to the topic ;D. Stop you continual spamming. >>

What, wrong thread, he answered what you asked :-\

Maybie you think this is Tunguska thread?

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 01:14:05 AM »
The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

Like other topics, Sandy has come up with wildly different claims about what this magical missing value should be and how it should be obtained, even for a simple ring interferometer.
Meanwhile, all the available evidence and those objecting to his lies maintain consistent. For a simple rotating ring interferometer the shift is directly proportional to the area of the loop and the angular velocity.

That means the effect of Earth's orbit around the sun is tiny, due to the ~365 day period.

Sandy then takes formulas and principles form science and then blatantly lies about them and changes them, pretending there are magically 2 separate effects.

FOR THE GPS SATELLITES, THE ORBITAL SAGNAC IS 60 TIMES GREATER THAN THE ROTATIONAL SAGNAC.
That is your baseless claim that you are yet to rationally substantiate.

This is how rabinoz lives his life: a constant stream of lies.
No, that is how you live your life, lying to everyone because you cannot justify your claims with the truth, so you just make up more and more lies to try and "back up" your previous lies.

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2020, 01:28:14 AM »

Anyway, the interplanetary Sagnac effect is due to
earth’s orbital motion around the sun as well as earth’s
rotation.


So the Earth orbits the sun, right?


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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2020, 01:51:18 AM »
The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

You urgently need psychiatric help.

ESA and CALTECH are telling you that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is much larger than the ROTATIONAL SAGNAC EFFECT.



Algebraic approach to time-delay data analysis: orbiting case
K Rajesh Nayak and J-Y Vinet

https://www.cosmos.esa.int/documents/946106/1027345/TDI_FOR_.PDF/2bb32fba-1b8a-438d-9e95-bc40c32debbe

This is an IOP article, published by the prestigious journal Classic and Quantum Gravity:

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0264-9381/22/10/040/meta

In this work, we estimate the effects due to the Sagnac phase by taking the realistic model for LISA orbital motion.

This work is organized as follows: in section 2, we make an estimate of Sagnac phase
for individual laser beams of LISA by taking realistic orbital motion. Here we show that, in general, the residual laser noise because of Sagnac phase is much larger than earlier estimates.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The computations carried out by Dr. R.K. Nayak (over ten papers published on the subject) and Dr. J.Y. Vinet (Member of the LISA International Science Team), and published by prestigious scientific journals and by ESA, show that the orbital Sagnac is 30 times greater than the rotational Sagnac for LISA.



https://web.archive.org/web/20161019095630/http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/2003papers/paper34.pdf

Dr. Massimo Tinto, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Principal Scientist

In the SSB frame, the differences between back-forth delay times are very much larger than has been previously recognized. The reason is in the aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame. With a velocity V=30 km/s, the light-transit times of light signals in opposing directions (Li, and L’i) will differ by as much as 2VL (a few thousands km).


https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0310017.pdf

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others. The problem is not rotation per se, but rather aberration due to motion and changes of orientation in the SSB frame.

The kinematics of the LISA  orbit brings in the effects of motion at several orders of magnitude larger than any previous papers on TDI have addressed. The instantaneous rotation axis of LISA swings about the Sun at 30 km/sec, and on any leg the transit times of light signals in opposing directions can differ by as much as 1000 km.

Aberration due to LISA’s orbit about the Sun dominates its instantaneous rotation.

The formula is 2VL/c.


Let us compare now and see just how desperately jackblack is in need of some medication.

The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

Within this frame, which we can assume to be Solar System Barycentric (SSB), the differences between back-forth delay times that occur are in fact thousands of kilometers, very much larger than has been previously recognized by us or others.

The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.



Two separate phase equations:  and

Dr. Daniel Shaddock (CALTECH) has derived the formula:



Dr. Massimo Tinto (CALTECH) has derived the formula:

2VL/c

Ratio:



Two different formulas FOR THE SAME INTERFEROMETER: THE ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT IS MUCH LARGER THAN THE ROTATIONAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

For the LISA geometry, R⊙/L is of the order 30 and the orbital contribution to the Sagnac phase is larger by this factor.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 02:11:43 AM by sandokhan »

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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2020, 01:53:09 AM »
Further embarrassment for rabinoz the clown.
Nope! I'm not the slightest bit embarrassed here! I've never denied the reality of the LISA satellite system.

Quote from: sandokhan
https://sci.esa.int/web/lisa
The LISA trio of satellites to detect gravitational waves from space has been selected as the third large-class mission in ESA's Science programme.

https://www.space.com/37603-lisa-pathfinder-gravitational-wave-tech-mission-end.html
LISA, slated to launch in 2034, will consist of three satellites positioned in a triangle.
I accept all of that with not the slightest problem and hope I see the results of it.

Why would you think otherwise?

But I do wonder how you you fit this huge satellite array into your tiny Universe:
Quote
Laser Interferometer Space Antenna
Mission description
This forms Michelson-like interferometers, each centred on one of the spacecraft, with the test masses defining the ends of the arms. The entire arrangement, which is ten times larger than the orbit of the Moon, will be placed in solar orbit at the same distance from the Sun as the Earth, but trailing the Earth by 20 degrees, and with the orbital planes of the three spacecraft inclined relative to the ecliptic by about 0.33 degree, which results in the plane of the triangular spacecraft formation being tilted 60 degrees from the plane of the ecliptic. The mean linear distance between the formation and the Earth will be 50 million kilometres?.

LISA spacecrafts orbitography and interferometer -yearly-periodic revolution in heliocentric orbit.
However do you shoehorn that into you tiny flat-Earth snow-globe with its "radius of the flat earth measures 6356.21 km".

I've just got to see you explanation of that one!

Quote from: sandokhan
This clown and paid shill << That is a blatant lie >> has spent almost 365 days online on this forum, a whole YEAR of his life, learning by heart flat earth theory, and comes back each and every day, 8-10 hours online, to embarrass himself even further in pointless debates, where he always loses the debate.
Now you're making a total fool of yourself! You always claim to win every debate when all you really do is to drown your opponents in so much irrelevant copy-pasta that they give up in disgust.

Now explain how LISA fits into your Advanced Flat Earth Theory ;D.

But I have to ask why you hide all your wisdom in this little corner of the internet?

Why don't you present your wonderful ideas to the scientific world?

*

rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2020, 02:23:58 AM »
The bottom line is there is no missing orbital Sagnac effect.

You urgently need psychiatric help.

ESA and CALTECH are telling you that the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT is much larger than the ROTATIONAL SAGNAC EFFECT.



That's not the GPS system! That's LISA! Can't you tell the difference :o? They are different!

Have you read this yet? GPS propagation model and Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su And you might note this little extract:
Quote from: Ching-Chuan Su
Thereby, the wave propagation in GPS can be viewed in a classical way, if an ECI frame, rather than the ECEF or any other frame, is selected as the unique propagation frame. Thus the wave propagation in GPS depends on the Earth's rotation, but is entirely independent of the Earth's orbital motion. The actual value of the Sagnac range correction due to the Earth's rotation depends on the positions of satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m. The GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning. Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly, if the Sagnac correction due to the Earth's rotation is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital motion of the Earth around the Sun has a linear speed about 100 times that of the Earth's rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be entirely impossible if the ignored correction due to orbital motion is really necessary. Thereby, it is concluded that the wave propagation in GPS is actually in accord with the classical propagation in an ECI frame.

Do Ching-Chuan Su and Neil Ashby also urgently need psychiatric help too?

*

sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2020, 02:32:09 AM »
Both LISA and GPS are satellites.

The signals are subject to a delay: the SAGNAC EFFECT.

Both are undergoing rotational and orbital trajectories.

Both must register the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT and the ROTATIONAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

ONLY ONE IS BEING REGISTERED BY GPS SATELLITES, the other one (ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT) is missing.



https://web.archive.org/web/20170808104846/http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf

This is an IOP article.

The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.

He uses GPS and a link between Japan and the US to prove this.

In GPS the actual magnitude of the Sagnac correction
due to earth’s rotation depends on the positions of
satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m, as the
propagation time is about 0.1s and the linear speed due
to earth’s rotation is about 464 m/s at the equator. The
GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning.
Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly,
if the Sagnac correction due to earth’s rotation
is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital
motion of the earth around the sun has a linear speed of
about 30 km/s which is about 100 times that of earth’s
rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be
entirely impossible if the omitted correction due to orbital
motion is really necessary.



In an intercontinental microwave link between Japan and
the USA via a geostationary satellite as relay, the influence
of earth’s rotation is also demonstrated in a high-precision
time comparison between the atomic clocks at two remote
ground stations.
In this transpacific-link experiment, a synchronization
error of as large as about 0.3 µs was observed unexpectedly.


Meanwhile, as in GPS, no effects of earth’s orbital motion
are reported in these links, although they would be
easier to observe if they are in existence.
Thereby, it is evident
that the wave propagation in GPS or the intercontinental
microwave link depends on the earth’s rotation, but
is entirely independent of earth’s orbital motion around
the sun or whatever. As a consequence, the propagation
mechanism in GPS or intercontinental link can be viewed
as classical in conjunction with an ECI frame, rather than
the ECEF or any other frame, being selected as the unique
propagation frame. In other words, the wave in GPS or the
intercontinental microwave link can be viewed as propagating
via a classical medium stationary in a geocentric
inertial frame.


This is the reason why the local-ether model has to be accepted by relativists: they cannot explain the missing orbital Sagnac effect.


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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2020, 04:13:35 AM »
Both LISA and GPS are satellites.
The signals are subject to a delay: the SAGNAC EFFECT.
Both are undergoing rotational and orbital trajectories.
Both must register the ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT and the ROTATIONAL SAGNAC EFFECT.
ONLY ONE IS BEING REGISTERED BY GPS SATELLITES, the other one (ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT) is missing.
Maybe you and possibly Su think that but a more accurate analysis using GR would show that there is a slight correction due to the centre-of-rotation being so far outside the light path but you won't believe Paolo Maraner and Jean-Pierre Zendri

Quote from: sandokhan
https://web.archive.org/web/20170808104846/http://qem.ee.nthu.edu.tw/f1b.pdf
This is an IOP article.
The author recognizes the earth's orbital Sagnac is missing whereas the earth's rotational Sagnac is not.
So you haven't even bothered to read to read my posts!
Of course I know that paper and that it's an IOP
Look at the title!
Europhys. Lett., 56 (2), pp. 170–174 (2001) Reinterpretation of the Michelson-Morley experiment based on the GPS Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su
The look at the paper that I've been trying to get YOU to read:
Have you read this yet? GPS propagation model and Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su And you might note this little extract:
Quote from: Ching-Chuan Su
Thereby, the wave propagation in GPS can be viewed in a classical way, if an ECI frame, rather than the ECEF or any other frame, is selected as the unique propagation frame. Thus the wave propagation in GPS depends on the Earth's rotation, but is entirely independent of the Earth's orbital motion. The actual value of the Sagnac range correction due to the Earth's rotation depends on the positions of satellites and receiver and a typical value is 30 m. The GPS provides an accuracy of about 10 m or better in positioning. Thus the precision of GPS will be degraded significantly, if the Sagnac correction due to the Earth's rotation is not taken into account. On the other hand, the orbital motion of the Earth around the Sun has a linear speed about 100 times that of the Earth's rotation. Thus the present high-precision GPS would be entirely impossible if the ignored correction due to orbital motion is really necessary. Thereby, it is concluded that the wave propagation in GPS is actually in accord with the classical propagation in an ECI frame.
That is part of that same letter and again in:
IOPScience: Reinterpretation of the Michelson-Morley experiment based on the GPS Sagnac correction by Ching-Chuan Su
So, of course I'm completely aware of that long letter by Su but I hope you read this bit:
Quote from: Ching-Chuan Su
GPS propagation model and Sagnac correctionMoreover, Michelson and Gale have demonstrated the Sagnac effect due to the Earth's rotation by using a geostationary interferometer composed of a closed propagation path along which two coherent waves propagate in opposite directions. Although the propagation paths for these two counterpropagating waves are identical in structure, the propagation ranges tend to be different owing to the Sagnac effect associated with the movement of propagation paths with the Earth's rotation. Thereby, the phase difference between the two waves results in an interference fringe, as derived in a classical approach. By constructing a loop interferometer enclosing an area as large as 0.2 km2, the Earth's rotation has been detected as early as in 1925, while the following attempt to detect the Earth's orbital motion by using a similar terrestrial interferometer was unsuccessful.
And the "the following attempt to detect the Earth's orbital motion by using a similar terrestrial interferometer was unsuccessful" for the simple reason that to within the resolution of their measurements any "orbital Sagnac" is quite undetectable.

And please note that Su is in no doubt that the Earth rotates and orbits the Sun.
Do you believe that Su is telling the truth?

Quote from: sandokhan
This is the reason why the local-ether model has to be accepted by relativists: they cannot explain the missing orbital Sagnac effect.
No, "the local-ether model" does not have "to be accepted by relativists" because a correct application of General Relativity gives more accurately results.

But stop your silly conflating of GPS and LISA! They both use satellites but the GPS satellites orbit the Earth and they and the Earth all orbit the Sun but the LISA array does not orbit the Earth.

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2020, 04:39:05 AM »
You are trolling your own thread which is quite a performance.

You have two choices: either accept the Earth is stationary, or accept the local-ether model (Dr. C.C. Su).

Einstein's relativity is incomplete.

A much higher form of relativity was introduced by Hermann Weyl: WEYL FIELDS.

Weyl field = ether field

So you are right back where you started.


Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2020, 05:44:47 AM »
Sandokhan, why do all your links claim the earth orbits the sun?

Do you believe your links are correct or not?

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2020, 05:53:07 AM »
The GPS satellites do not record the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

Then, you have two choices: either accept the Earth is stationary, or accept the local-ether model.

Have you ever thought about the implications of having both the Earth and the Sun endowed with an ether field?


Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2020, 06:01:20 AM »
Your own links state the earth orbits the sun.

If it doesn’t, then anything you claim about the Sagnac effect is meaningless.

So which is it?  Are they right or wrong?

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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2020, 06:06:37 AM »

Weyl field = ether field

No, it's not!
Hermann Weyl was a great proponent and teacher of Einstein's General Relativity! Have you ever seen the lecture series that he's given or the titles of the books he wrote.
For example: Space, Time, Matter
Quote
"The standard treatise on the general theory of relativity." — Nature

"Whatever the future may bring, Professor Weyl's book will remain a classic of physics." — British Journal for Philosophy and Science
Reflecting the revolution in scientific and philosophic thought which accompanied the Einstein relativity theories, Dr. Weyl has probed deeply into the notions of space, time, and matter. A rigorous examination of the state of our knowledge of the world following these developments is undertaken with this guiding principle: that although further scientific thought may take us far beyond our present conception of the world, we may never again return to the previous narrow and restricted scheme.
Although a degree of mathematical sophistication is presupposed, Dr. Weyl develops all the tensor calculus necessary to his exposition. He then proceeds to an analysis of the concept of Euclidean space and the spatial conceptions of Riemann. From this the nature of the amalgamation of space and time is derived. This leads to an exposition and examination of Einstein's general theory of relativity and the concomitant theory of gravitation. A detailed investigation follows devoted to gravitational waves, a rigorous solution of the problem of one body, laws of conservation, and the energy of gravitation. Dr. Weyl's introduction of the concept of tensor-density as a magnitude of quantity (contrasted with tensors which are considered to be magnitudes of intensity) is a major step toward a clearer understanding of the relationships among space, time, and matter.

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rabinoz

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2020, 06:12:52 AM »
The GPS satellites do not record the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

Then, you have two choices: either accept the Earth is stationary, or accept the local-ether model.
No, for the zillionth time, we do not have to "either accept the Earth is stationary, or accept the local-ether model."

We can accept that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, as presented by Hermann Weyl and many others explains it even better than C-C. Su's local ether model!

Quote from: sandokhan
Have you ever thought about the implications of having both the Earth and the Sun endowed with an ether field?
Why should we?

Why is it impossible to drive into that your thick skull of yours that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity explain's everything that the local either model does only far better?

Go fly a kite! I've got to get to bed!

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2020, 06:29:53 AM »
Your knowledge of relativity is as defectuous as your hare-brained ideas on other scientific matters.

In 1917, Weyl put an end to Einstein's version of relativity, when he added the non-riemannian geometry (Weyl fields) to the entire approach.

Newton's law of gravitation is directly related to Einstein's gravitational field equations.

It is described in terms of mass and distance (object to Earth).

Weyl's superior form of relativity has a new law of gravitation, one that links electrostatic energy with gravitational energy: electrogravity.

If we keep the dielectric and the distance between the plates of the capacitor as fixed, we can modify gravitation (either antigravitational effects, or even increase the gravity) by simply increasing the voltage.

Dark matter can only be explained using Weyl fields.

The Aharonov-Bohm effect can only be explained using Weyl fields.

Weyl proved the existence of TWO gravitational forces: positive and negative (antigravitational and gravitational).

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 06:31:41 AM by sandokhan »

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2020, 07:00:57 AM »
Any reason why you refuse to answer the simple question of whether you believe your own sources, namely about the Earth orbiting the sun?

This is prerequisite for any meaningful discussion.

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2020, 07:04:46 AM »
You can't have the Earth orbiting the Sun if the GPS sattelites do not record the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

You must accept the local-ether model.

Have you ever thought about the implications of having both the Earth and the Sun endowed with an ether field?

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2020, 07:54:10 AM »
You can't have the Earth orbiting the Sun if the GPS sattelites do not record the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

This article, posted by you, says you can:

http://www.hrpub.org/download/20150510/UJPA2-18403649.pdf

The reason given is something to to with Higgs Quantum Space.  Which it proposes could eventually pave the way towards a unified theory of relativity and quantum physics. 

Unlike you, I do not claim to understand it well enough to even guess if it is correct or not. 

Quote
You must accept the local-ether model.

No I don’t.  It’s well known that neither relativity nor quantum physics describe everything.  There are numerous hypotheses attempting to fill in the gaps, and none of them are universally accepted even by the scientists who actually study the problem.

And that’s without even the very real possibility that one or more of the articles you are spamming is mistaken. 

I’m perfectly comfortable with there being unresolved questions in science.  That’s what makes it science.

But you claim to have it all worked out and try to shoehorn real research into your model, even when it directly contradicts you, as demonstrated by your links here.

Quote
Have you ever thought about the implications of having both the Earth and the Sun endowed with an ether field?

Not in the way you describe in your ridiculous flat earth model.  Which no scientific paper comes close to supporting.

Now I have answered your questions, will you answer mine:

Why do all the papers you cite state the earth orbits the sun?

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2020, 08:00:03 AM »
Higgs Quantum Space = Weyl fields = Ether

Why do all the papers you cite state the earth orbits the sun?

You can't have the Earth orbiting the Sun if the GPS sattelites do not record the MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT.

You must accept the local-ether model.

If you do not, then the Earth is stationary.

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2020, 08:04:55 AM »
So all the papers you linked to are fundamental wrong.

This is your position?

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sandokhan

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Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2020, 08:08:29 AM »
Most of the authors of mainstream science are not even familiar with the concept of the missing orbital sagnac effect, let alone the local-ether model.

Only those who specialize in nonlinear optics, light interferometry, mathematical theory of GPS communications, know that the missing orbital sagnac effect means one has to accept the local-ether model.

But the local-ether model was introduced in 1917 by H. Weyl, a mathematician many ranks higher than Einstien.

Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2020, 08:14:14 AM »
Most of the authors of mainstream science are not even familiar with the concept of the missing orbital sagnac effect, let alone the local-ether model.

Only those who specialize in nonlinear optics, light interferometry, mathematical theory of GPS communications, know that the missing orbital sagnac effect means one has to accept the local-ether model.

But the local-ether model was introduced in 1917 by H. Weyl, a mathematician many ranks higher than Einstien.

You know what all authors of mainstream science do agree on though, don’t you? 

So do you accept the Local Ether model/Higgs Quantum Space explains observations of the Earth and satellites orbiting the sun?


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sandokhan

  • Flat Earth Sultan
  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 6585
Re: Sandokhan's so-called "MISSING ORBITAL SAGNAC EFFECT".
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2020, 08:23:39 AM »
In a court of law there would be an objection to your question: it contains two different matters.

So do you accept the Local Ether model

Sure.

Have you ever thought about the implications of having both the Earth and the Sun endowed with an ether field?

If not, here is one: Koronium.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2057945#msg2057945