Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?

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Bom Tishop

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Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« on: April 25, 2020, 09:14:32 PM »
I think people are starting to realize we are being bamboozled with this crap. There is starting to be protests here, businesses opening and saying to hell with the government, even a whole city saying f you (colleyville).

Though they aren't being stupid about it, example a salon opened, but you have to have a mask and gloves, distancing, plus take your temp at the door. The same with the city that is rebelling...

Is it time? I am beginning to think it is, and very close to doing that myself Monday with the same safety stuff.

Haven't decided yet, but definitely considering.
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Crouton

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 10:17:14 PM »
I've considered this.  But here's the thing, we have no way to mitigate the damage if we open up everything now.  We don't have the tests to track this.  We don't have the medical infrastructure to keep up.  We're nowhere near a vaccine.  We're nowhere near to producing enough ppe to protect against this.

This will kill several million Americans this year if we just go full steam head.  People may be so scared by all of the death and disease that you'd have the same effect as shutting down the economy with the exception that the people just won't trust the government for the all clear signal.

In my opinion, which I admit isn't particularly well informed, we need the leadership in this country to really lean on manufacturers to produce enough tests and ppe to control this.  This is not being done.
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rabinoz

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 10:17:30 PM »
I think people are starting to realize we are being bamboozled with this crap. There is starting to be protests here, businesses opening and saying to hell with the government, even a whole city saying f you (colleyville).

Though they aren't being stupid about it, example a salon opened, but you have to have a mask and gloves, distancing, plus take your temp at the door. The same with the city that is rebelling...

Is it time? I am beginning to think it is, and very close to doing that myself Monday with the same safety stuff.

Haven't decided yet, but definitely considering.
Before deciding, consider the case of the late John McDaniel, his family and widow:

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markjo

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 10:31:26 PM »
Even though some of the covid hot spots are starting to settle down a bit, a lot of hospitals are still overwhelmed with new and active cases.  Maybe the rebels should hold off until the medical system can catch its breath and restock their PPE.
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Rayzor

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2020, 10:34:34 PM »
Shops and businesses here haven't closed,  they are still open much as normal,  but they have barriers stopping you from getting too close to the people who work there,  hand sanitizer as you go in the door,  stickers on the floor showing where you can stand.  Some people wearing face masks but only a few.

Restaurants are closed, but most are doing take-away menus.
Pubs and bars are closed.
Movie Theaters are closed.
Schools are closed and are doing on-line learning.
Sporting events that involve crowds are banned.
Public spaces like beaches and parks are supposed to be closed,  but you can still see people out and about.
No unnecessary travel.
No more than one person visiting a home if they don't live there.  So no family gatherings.


People in some jobs are working from home.  Offices are pretty much deserted.

This is what the Australian Government is calling a level 3 lockdown.  They got in early and have been over the top with police issuing fines for breaches.

The numbers have been going down, so it's unlikely we will ever go to Level 4 lockdown,  but that might change if infection rates start to go up.

Also,  we disinfect all groceries and parcels that come into the house.  70% isopropanol mostly,  I'm saving the bleach for mixed drinks.

 
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 10:42:46 PM by JerkFace »
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 10:41:58 PM »
This is an answer to all....

Are the hospitals in Texas overloaded? From what I know they aren't.

Basically having the economy open with safety measures is the same thing Sweden has done. They seem to be fairing better than the states?
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 10:45:03 PM »
Though honestly I think it's only business owners in the ball park of my "class" that is really being hurt.

I think the average Joe is happy with the beefed up unemployment and stimulus, many making more than working currently. So they aren't going to fight for a re open.
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Crouton

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 10:57:20 PM »
I don't anyone is being made whole by the stimulus except for the corporations.

There's been one round of stimulus for maybe 1200 that hasn't even reached most people yet.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2020, 11:08:02 PM »
I don't anyone is being made whole by the stimulus except for the corporations.

There's been one round of stimulus for maybe 1200 that hasn't even reached most people yet.

Here it's reach a lot of people. 1200 per adult in the house and 500 per kid. Then the added 600 per week on unemployment
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Rayzor

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2020, 11:14:20 PM »
This is an answer to all....

Are the hospitals in Texas overloaded? From what I know they aren't.

Basically having the economy open with safety measures is the same thing Sweden has done. They seem to be fairing better than the states?

Sweden has a higher per capita death rate than the USA,  so I don't see how you think that equates to doing better. 

Both USA and Sweden are doing a disatrous job of slowing the rate of infection. 

USA  164 deaths per million and still climbing fast.

Sweden 217 deaths per million and not slowing down.   April 24th there were 131 deaths in one day!,  that's more than the total for all of Australia for the whole epidemic.  And Sweden has half the population of Australia.
 
Australia  3 deaths per million and infection rate slowed to almost zero. 

So, whatever you don't copy Sweden.
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2020, 11:16:35 PM »
This is an answer to all....

Are the hospitals in Texas overloaded? From what I know they aren't.

Basically having the economy open with safety measures is the same thing Sweden has done. They seem to be fairing better than the states?

Sweden has a higher per capita death rate than the USA,  so I don't see how you think that equates to doing better. 

Both USA and Sweden are doing a disatrous job of slowing the rate of infection. 

USA  164 deaths per million and still climbing fast.

Sweden 217 deaths per million and not slowing down.   April 24th there were 131 deaths in one day!,  that's more than the total for all of Australia for the whole epidemic.  And Sweden has half the population of Australia.
 
Australia  3 deaths per million and infection rate slowed to almost zero. 

So, whatever you don't copy Sweden.

How dense is Australia? Are they largely spread out excluding the main cities? I am not seeing how Australia is much different than other nations in their actions
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Rayzor

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2020, 11:56:15 PM »
This is an answer to all....

Are the hospitals in Texas overloaded? From what I know they aren't.

Basically having the economy open with safety measures is the same thing Sweden has done. They seem to be fairing better than the states?

Sweden has a higher per capita death rate than the USA,  so I don't see how you think that equates to doing better. 

Both USA and Sweden are doing a disatrous job of slowing the rate of infection. 

USA  164 deaths per million and still climbing fast.

Sweden 217 deaths per million and not slowing down.   April 24th there were 131 deaths in one day!,  that's more than the total for all of Australia for the whole epidemic.  And Sweden has half the population of Australia.
 
Australia  3 deaths per million and infection rate slowed to almost zero. 

So, whatever you don't copy Sweden.

How dense is Australia? Are they largely spread out excluding the main cities? I am not seeing how Australia is much different than other nations in their actions

Yeah, you'd think that's a valid point, but the majority of the population in Australia lives in the large capital cities on the east coast,  Sydney and Melbourne are as densely populated as many cities in Texas or Sweden.

Not as densely populated as cities in Asia,  like  Seoul,  or Singapore.  Check out the infection rates for those cities. 

South Korea  5 deaths per million.
Singapore  2 deaths per million.

So population density is not a determining factor.  How the population behaves is more important. 

 
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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2020, 12:04:20 AM »
So here is the problem. You have 2 things to consider.

1 - The rate of infection in  a population. This changes depending on what steps people take. So if everyone is at home, the infection rate is closer to 0. If everyone carries on as normal, its more than 2. 2 means that 1 person can infect 2 new people every day.

2 - Long incubation period & asymptomatic persons. Someone can carry on infecting people for a long time before they get sick, if they get sick. This takes about 5 - 14 days after an infected population starts showing signs that there are lots of infection.

If you take these 2 things together this is what you get by opening up.

The R0 jumps up immediately and where you have a flat 100 new infections a day you now have an exponential increase of infections per day. 100 - 120 - 150 - 200 ext. after 2 weeks you have 1000's of new infections per day.
The hospitals where fine at 100 new infected persons a day. And for up to 2 weeks after opening up, it still looks fine. Everyone thinks that the other counties are over reacting ext ext. But after those 2 weeks are up, the hospitals start filling up with exponentially more patients reflecting the growing infection rate 2 weeks prior. They only really show you how bad it is 2 weeks later.

The real issue is that the feedback is slow if you are only looking at hospitals. So if things are looking good NOW, it means that 2 weeks ago, there where low infections. If things are bad, it means that there where lots of infections 2 weeks ago.
DONT TRUST THE DATA to tell you the whole story.

The only way to really tell is to test people who are not in hospital. If you dont see random testing going on everywhere all the time, it means your state is not ready to open up.
If you move fast enough, everything appears flat

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Lorddave

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2020, 05:10:12 AM »
Here's something to consider: gloves are almost useless.(at least as most people use em)
The virus can't get in via your skin.  What happens is the gloves act as a second skin.  So unless you change them often (like every time you change rooms or after each customer, you'll just end up spreading the virus as though you never wore gloves.

Masks help more but it requires people to not touch their fsce (even when wearing gloves)
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markjo

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2020, 09:20:45 AM »
This is an answer to all....

Are the hospitals in Texas overloaded? From what I know they aren't.
Which leads to the obvious question of: how do you keep the hospitals in Texas from getting overloaded?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 10:06:23 AM »
I think the USA is handling the crisis in a very pathetic way.

@BHS
Do you have a nationwide lockdown? How does the lockdown look in texas; what are you allowed to do right now? Which stores are open? Is there already a date for when things will reopen?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:26:57 PM by Definitely Not Swedish »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 10:15:28 AM »
The lockdown was supposed to buy time so that we could build up all the equipment and supplies that will be needed, and to buy time in hope someone would find good treatments while we wait for a vaccine. The question isn't whether we should rebel, it's have we done those things. Obviously we can't lockdown forever.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 10:18:12 AM »
The lockdown was supposed to buy time so that we could build up all the equipment and supplies that will be needed, and to buy time in hope someone would find good treatments while we wait for a vaccine. The question isn't whether we should rebel, it's have we done those things. Obviously we can't lockdown forever.

In developed countries you could just launch a voting instead of having to rebell.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 10:26:32 AM »
The vast majority of people in the US do not want to rebel against the lockdown.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 10:29:06 AM »
The vast majority of people in the US do not want to rebel against the lockdown.

If you had the option to vote, you'd know it and not have to guess. Just saying.
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markjo

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 10:44:13 AM »
In this case, people are voting with their actions.  Since the vast majority of people aren't rebelling, I'd say that the results of the vote are clear.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 12:16:39 PM »
The media hypes up the protests, but there are very few protesters. Also, we don't have votes every time something happens. A country isn't a forum.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 12:22:54 PM »
In this case, people are voting with their actions.  Since the vast majority of people aren't rebelling, I'd say that the results of the vote are clear.

It very rarely happens that more than 50% take part in rebellions. If 5% or so participate, it might be that 80% of the population stands behind their action.


There is a reason why wo don't change laws with rebellion but with voting in first world countries.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 12:24:28 PM »
The media hypes up the protests, but there are very few protesters. Also, we don't have votes every time something happens. A country isn't a forum.
If the us was a decent democracy, you would have the ability to vote to lift (or not lift) the lockdown after collecting a certain amount of signatures.

But last time you had the option to vote I have heared it was really hard to actually vote, with long queues et cetera.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:26:10 PM by Definitely Not Swedish »
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Bom Tishop

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 12:30:45 PM »
The lockdown was supposed to buy time so that we could build up all the equipment and supplies that will be needed, and to buy time in hope someone would find good treatments while we wait for a vaccine. The question isn't whether we should rebel, it's have we done those things. Obviously we can't lockdown forever.

In developed countries you could just launch a voting instead of having to rebell.

This is America in 2020, most people are either too complacent, lazy, scared, distracted etc to care, rebel, vote or whatnot.

We have been conditioned for many decades to be of that mindset. Makes the government's job quite easy to fleece us.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 12:39:31 PM »
@BHS
Do you have a nationwide lockdown? How does the lockdown look in texas; what are you allowed to do right now? Which stores are open? Is there already a date for when things will reopen?
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markjo

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 01:30:23 PM »
The media hypes up the protests, but there are very few protesters. Also, we don't have votes every time something happens. A country isn't a forum.
If the us was a decent democracy, you would have the ability to vote to lift (or not lift) the lockdown after collecting a certain amount of signatures.
There was no vote to enact the lock downs in the first place, so why should there be a vote to lift them?  In the US, the sate governors issued the lock downs by executive order and (at least some) governors are looking a lifting the lock downs using a phased approach that considers risk by region and industry.

Would you really trust the general public to decide matters of public safety?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 01:33:47 PM by markjo »
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2020, 01:50:36 PM »
Would you really trust the general public to decide matters of public safety?
That's the argumentstion china, north korea etc use all the time.

Any decent educated population can be trusted with such a decision, yes.
There isn't really a right or wrong in this situation since nobody knows the consequences. So the people that are affected should be the ones to decide.
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markjo

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2020, 02:14:15 PM »
Any decent educated population can be trusted with such a decision, yes.
Oh?  Where have you found a population decently educated in matters of public health?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Definitely Not Swedish

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Re: Is it time to rebel against the shelter in place orders?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2020, 02:15:58 PM »
Any decent educated population can be trusted with such a decision, yes.
Oh?  Where have you found a population decently educated in matters of public health?

Look over the ocean.
It's called europe.
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