Southern circumpolar stars

Flat-earth astronomers working in the southern semicircle report that these stars are in constant change.

In what kind of change are these stars ?

I have told we have astronomers and approving there isn't anything like southern celestial pole.

How have these astronomers established the absense of such pole ?


A claim prestented as evidence to evaluate the best wordview is the existence of southern circumpolar stars (SCS) and a south celestial pole (SCP). This claim is supported with testimonial evidence and timelapse photos of a night sky. The only flat-earther participing denies the existence of SCSs and appears to deny the existence of an SCP. He explains the evidence by putting forward the hypothesis that southerners are lying about their astronomical observations or unable to overcome their prejudices. The nighttime timelapse images showing the SCP are posited to be fake. The flat-earther claims the existence of counter-evidence in the form of astronomers denying the existence of an SCP.

As additional evidence was presented the claim that telescopes are equipped with an equatorial mount that permits them to function properly in the southern hemisphere, but only in the presence of an SCP, and that telescopes do indeed function properly in the southern hemisphere. That evidence is not disputed and no explanation consistent with a flat earth could be presented for it.


Suppose someone is out at night in clear weather in South Afrika. He observes the sky the whole night. Everyone knows what he will observe if the heliocentric world model is correct. But what will he observe if the flat-earth world model is correct ?

Just remember that as conspiracy theorists, it doesn't matter a jot to them (flat Earthers) what is actually true or real.  What matters to them is what they believe and that is the only truth in their mind.

So it matters not what evidence you present that shows that the south celestial pole is real and that there definitely are circumpolar stars. That will all wash over them as some sort of lie, conspiracy or whatever you want to call it. To a flat Earther the Earth is flat. Always has been and always will be. You can go into as much detail as you like to explain that how the real sky behaves and how that shows that flat Earth models cannot possibly be right. It won't matter to them. We are all lying and presenting fake photos, fake videos etc etc.

It is precisely because astronomy provides the strongest and clearest and most direct evidence that flat Earth models are wrong which makes flat Earth believers hate astronomy and astronomers so much.  That is why FE have felt it necessary to 're-invent' astronomy through several sections of their FE Wiki in order to provide alternative, and it has to be said very imaginative explanations for several astronomical events.  None of which can possibly work. Other than of course in the mind of a flat Earth believer.

I don't think we'll get anywhere with trying to convince FE'ers - such as those of the "Wise" persuasion!  (I've noticed that as he gets more and more steamed up, his grammar and spelling tend to deteriorate).  At present, with lockdown etc. etc., he can't be persuaded to take a trip to the Southern Hemisphere to see for himself - but if things change for the better, perhaps he could go to somewhere south of 27ºS.  Buenos Aires or Cape Town will do, or Brisbane (just).  From that latitude southwards, Acrux (the brightest star in the Southern Cross, and the most southerly first-magnitude star) will appear circumpolar, so it can be seen on any clear night, any time of the year, and can be watched all through the night.  It never sets.

I suppose any true-believing FE'er's response will be, "It's all faked!  They've just set up a giant dome like a planetarium over our viewing locality, and the stars are being projected onto it - just like a planetarium".

I've news for FE'ers who try to put across that 'argument'.  A few years ago I indeed visited a planetarium (the one at Chichester, in the UK).  I noticed that if you're not sitting at the centre of the hall (I wasn't), some of the projected constellations will appear distorted because of foreshortening. 

But while I was in Chile and Argentina last year, I took a good look at the Southern Cross whenever it was visible.  At no time did it show the slightest distortion.  If you want to persist in a 'dome' hypothesis, explain that!

Oh well...... I'd better stop here.  The FE'ers will no doubt come up with something....

....which makes flat Earth believers hate astronomy and astronomers so much.

I can well believe that!  I suppose I must be one of the 'hated ones'.  But did you know that the late Patrick Moore was once a signed-up member of the FE society?  Of course he did it for a laugh.  I wonder what FE believers make of his legacy?

(I've noticed that as he gets more and more steamed up, his grammar and spelling tend to deteriorate).

You've noticed that too have you... glad I'm not the only one!  Have you also noticed how his ignore list seems to get longer and longer.  Why would you feel it necessary to ignore someone on here?

Dear old Patrick. I met him a few times and it doesn't surprise me in the least that he would sign up to the FE society. I wouldn't say I followed his lead for the 'laugh', rather I am just intrigued as to why a small group of people in the 19th century would suddenly decide the Earth is flat when it has been known since the days of ancient Greece that the Earth is a globe. 

You've noticed that too have you... glad I'm not the only one!  Have you also noticed how his ignore list seems to get longer and longer.  Why would you feel it necessary to ignore someone on here?

I have no idea.  But then, I'm not "Wise".  Not even with a small 'w'. 

The ignore list to me is the difference between knowledge and belief. If you get my drift.  Belief is no substitute for knowledge. You can believe what you like, but that doesn't make it true.

The fact that equatorial mounts are successfully used every day (and night) is physical and real evidence for the existence of a south celestial pole.  Where have you seen any physical proof of the FE version of the night sky where no south celestial pole or circumpolar stars exists?  To them the stars all revolve around the 'northern hub' of the Polaris. That will have to change of course in a few thousand years when the precession of the Earths polar axis takes Polaris away from the north celestial pole. In times gone by and in times in the future, Vega will be the pole star.

You will never see a flat Earther produce any direct evidence to back up their claims because no such evidence exists. Which takes me back to what I said earlier.  To a flat Earther their belief that the Earth is flat is the only evidence needed as far as they are concerned.

Quote from: Solarwind on May 04, 2020, 11:29:40 AM

....which makes flat Earth believers hate astronomy and astronomers so much.

I can well believe that!  I suppose I must be one of the 'hated ones'.  But did you know that the late Patrick Moore was once a signed-up member of the FE society?  Of course he did it for a laugh.  I wonder what FE believers make of his legacy?

This legacy?



I used to watch this before I even knew he was an astronomer.

I met Patrick just once, in autumn 2011 - about a year before his death.  It was quite an experience.  By then he was too frail to show us around his 'scopes personally, but we were shown around anyway and had time to have a look at Jupiter through his planetary Newtonian.  Seeing was excellent that night, we could make out in detail the GRS on Jupiter very clearly.

I wonder if FE'ers think Jupiter too is flat, and if so how do they account for the apparent motion of the GRS?  No, don't bother!  I'm sure they've got an answer ready.

Talking of Jupiter, I don't know if you are familiar with the brands of Takahashi and TMB.  Both 'top end' refractors. I have had the privilege of owning at different times both a TMB 6" f8 triplet refractor and the slightly faster (shorter focal length) F7.3 Tak TOA150 (£14k scope brand new).

I have to say through the TOA150 detail in Jupiter visually was the sharpest I can remember seeing.  The GRS stood out like a salmon pink egg shaped ellipse against the equatorial belt. I was using a TeleView 13mm Ethos eyepiece which offered a power of just over 84x.  The satellites were distinctly tiny circular disks rather than point sources as the stars were. A testament to what can be achieved through a combination of excellent quality optics and seeing.

A lovely and very memorable experience.

Quote from: Solarwind on May 04, 2020, 11:38:43 AM

You've noticed that too have you... glad I'm not the only one!  Have you also noticed how his ignore list seems to get longer and longer.  Why would you feel it necessary to ignore someone on here?

I have no idea.  But then, I'm not "Wise".  Not even with a small 'w'. 

This is the Debate section of the forum. If you feel like you need to insult wise, do it in Angry Ranting.

If my comments towards Wise amount to an insult I presume then that similar advice has been directed towards Wise himself with regards to the way he has described many other users of these forums?

If you have a problem with moderation, take it up to Suggestions and Concerns.

This is the Debate section of the forum. If you feel like you need to insult wise, do it in Angry Ranting.

Oh, what a great advice! We need to remind that everybody can insult also Space Cowgirl in Angry Ranting freely.

This is the Debate section of the forum. If you feel like you need to insult wise, do it in Angry Ranting.

Understood, but I don't feel like I 'need' to insult anyone.  Unless pointing out poor spelling is deemed to be an 'insult' on this forum.

I do note that one of my few posts has been moved to 'angry ranting' - but that was hardly an insult!  I was merely explaining my underlying modus postandi for this forum!

I concede, however, that moderating the FES forum must be an absolute nightmare!  You must get all sorts you need to 'deal with' - and not just myself or Solarwind!  'Respect' to all of you!

Talking of Jupiter, I don't know if you are familiar with the brands of Takahashi and TMB.  Both 'top end' refractors. I have had the privilege of owning at different times both a TMB 6" f8 triplet refractor and the slightly faster (shorter focal length) F7.3 Tak TOA150 (£14k scope brand new).

I'm afraid my 'scopes are rather more modest!  A 250mm Newtonian (Orion Optics on Vixen mount) which I've had now for over 15 years, plus a Williams Optics ZS61 APO - bought only last year.  I'm thinking of flogging the refractor (once the CV lockdown is over!) - I bought it specifically because it's very portable and I wanted something for the Total Eclipse in Argentina/Chile last year.

As it happens, my camera battery gave out about 5 seconds before second contact, so I got no images of totality!  Was I gutted!!!  At least I got a splendid view of totality with my MK1 eyeballs, aided with my MK2 bins.  But no record! 
[edit]:  This is the last piccy I got:


Do you do any eclipse-chasing yourself?  We did the Indonesia one in 2016 (successfully), and also attempted the 1999 one from France (total washout).  Didn't go to the USA one in 2017, but some of our friends did and had an excellent time....

Memo - back on topic.  I see FE'ers are doing their best to explain southern hemisphere star movements.  How do they explain eclipses in the Southern Hemisphere?

So it matters not what evidence you present that shows that the south celestial pole is real and that there definitely are circumpolar stars. That will all wash over them as some sort of lie, conspiracy or whatever you want to call it. To a flat Earther the Earth is flat. Always has been and always will be. You can go into as much detail as you like to explain that how the real sky behaves and how that shows that flat Earth models cannot possibly be right. It won't matter to them. We are all lying and presenting fake photos, fake videos etc etc.

Once a flat-earther, one doesn't necessarily die a flat-eather. FTFE has on his Youtube channel done five interviews with ex-flat-eathers : www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLG6-rRsH3vpRH5K2JsXHPRr7XYTlVa9FF
So it seems that some are susceptible to reason.

Quote from: Amoranemix 30

In what kind of change are these stars ?

[no response]

You forgot to answer my question.

Quote from: Amoranemix 30

How have these astronomers established the absense of such pole ?

[no response]

You forgot to answer my question.

Quote from: Amoranemix 30

Suppose someone is out at night in clear weather in South Afrika. He observes the sky the whole night. Everyone knows what he will observe if the heliocentric world model is correct. But what will he observe if the flat-earth world model is correct ?

[no response]

Surely there must be a flat-earther somewhere who has a good idea of what happens in the southern sky at night ?