# Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?

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#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #840 on: April 14, 2021, 12:17:34 AM »
Did you consume ouzo before you came up with this piece?

https://www.mdpi.com/1648-9144/57/3/199/htm

This is a peer-reviewed article which uses the accepted definitions for RRR and ARR based on the clinical studies published by the mRNA vaccines manufacturers.

What is the RRR of your example? The ARR? Without these figures, your "analysis" cannot be used for scientific studies.

Since you did not bother to calculate these figures, I will compute them for you.

"Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated, but all the people who do get exposed and aren't vaccinated do get sick."

You cannot make assumptions like that in a vaccine study. If you do, then you actually have a test group of 1000 (not 10000), since by your definition only 1/10 out of the vaccinated get sick, while 9/10 are unaffected.

9/10 applied to 10000 is 9000.

RRR.

Vaccine (No infection 990), (Infection 10), total 1000

Placebo (No infection 9900), (Infection 100), total 10000

RRR = 1 - RR

RR = 10/(1000) / 100(10000) = 1

RRR = zero

ARR

ARR = 100/10000 - 10/1000 = 1/100 - 1/100 = 0

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0 = infinity, the study is completely useless
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:11:41 AM by sandokhan »

#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #841 on: April 14, 2021, 12:40:10 AM »
Let us now remove the assumption that 9/10 people who get vaccinated do not get sick.

RRR

Vaccine (No infection 9900, Infection 100 [your figure of 1% who get sick out of the 10000 test group])

Placebo (No infection 9900, Infection 100)

RR = 100/10000 / 100/10000 = 1

RRR = 1 - RR = zero

ARR

ARR = 100/10000 - 100/10000 = zero

Your study, in this case, is completely useless, since NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0 = infinity.

#### Pezevenk

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #842 on: April 14, 2021, 01:15:39 AM »
Did you consume ouzo before you came up with this piece?

https://www.mdpi.com/1648-9144/57/3/199/htm

This is a peer-reviewed article which uses the accepted definitions for RRR and ARR based on the clinical studies published by the mRNA vaccines manufacturers.

What is the RRR of your example? The ARR? Without these figures, your "analysis" cannot be used for scientific studies.

So if some poor rando embarrassed himself by publishing a garbage paper I'm supposed to accept it?

Did you know a doctor once re-invented the trapezoidal rule for integration (which he proved by experiment lmao), and then his paper was heavily cited by other doctors, even lending his name to the method, until some people who knew basic math came in and told them slow down, this has already been a thing since forever.

People who work in the medical sciences etc aren't always great at math. Luckily there are enough that do know math and can check the rest. But individual people may well publish really embarrassing results.

Bottom line is, I don't care if it is published. Respond to the main point. Absolute risk reduction is an absolutely useless metric the way it is computed here because it depends on the number people who get exposed to the virus during the trial. Except there is, you know, life beyond the trial. Absolute risk reduction should also reflect the probability that someone gets covid. This doesn't reflect that, because much, much more than 84 per 100,000 people are going to get covid so it's not really even absolute risk reduction, it is more like absolute risk reduction for 2 months (or however long the trial was) in whatever country the tests were conducted at that particular time. So, absolutely useless.

Again, embarrassing study, you should know better than this, take the L and move on.
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#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #843 on: April 14, 2021, 01:24:57 AM »
You are embarrassing yourself here.

The doctor simply used THE ACCEPTED figures in clinical studies. Nothing else.

His paper is full of bibliographical studies from where he got the formulas for RRR and ARR.

Do you understand these basic facts? He did not make them up. He referenced the data from Moderna and Pfizer and then simply applied the formulas to them.

Absolute risk reduction is an absolutely useless metric the way it is computed here because it depends on the number people who get exposed to the virus during the trial.

The ARR is the single most important figure used in clinical studies today. It is referenced and precisely recommended by the FDA.

You lose big on this one.

#### Pezevenk

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #844 on: April 14, 2021, 01:35:10 AM »
Quote
The ARR is the single most important figure used in clinical studies today.

Indeed, if it is used correctly and in appropriate contexts, as opposed to this nonsense. You can't use a drug trial with a small duration to assess the likelihood of getting COVID. It is clearly much, much higher than 84/20000. Therefore the calculation does not accurately reflect the absolute risk because it does not reflect the risk of getting infected in the first place. If it was true that 84/20000 people get COVID, then indeed it would be useful, except it simply is not the case.

Quote
Do you understand these basic facts? He did not make them up. He referenced the data from Moderna and Pfizer and then simply applied the formulas to them.

Yes, except he forgot to use the correct formulas.

You cannot make assumptions like that in a vaccine study.

I'm not talking about any real study. I am talking about an idealized study to sanity check your result.

The stuff about having a test group of 1000 instead of 10000 is just absolute nonsense. No you don't, the test group is the number of people who get the vaccine and are partaking in the trial. The assumption is that an unvaccinated person will get the disease after being exposed, whereas a vaccinated person will only get it 1 out of 10 times. The first has nothing to do with the second, and they are perfectly fine assumptions for an imaginary idealized study to sanity check your result. You can't just divide any random number you like for no reason just because it suits your point.

The funniest thing is that you literally calculated the RRR (which was what was ASSUMED to be 90%) as 0% and you didn't stop to think "huh, maybe I've messed up somewhere".

Quote
ARR = 100/10000 - 10/1000 = 1/10 - 1/100 = 0.1 - 0.01 = 0.99, which is exceptional

100/10000 is apparently 1/10, and 0.1-0.01 is apparently 0.99. Uhhh are you alright?

Weren't you supposed to have written the most authoritative amazeballs math book or something?
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#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #845 on: April 14, 2021, 02:21:15 AM »
Indeed, if it is used correctly and in appropriate contexts, as opposed to this nonsense.

You do not seem to understand what is going on, which is a pity.

The doctor used the data published by the vaccine manufacturers. Then, he used the ACCEPTED formula for ARR. Nothing else. He simply plugged in the numbers, which the vaccine manufacturers never did.

Did he use the correct formulas? Well, let's see.

Data for Pfizer

Vaccine (No infection 21712, Infection 8 )

Placebo (No infection 21564, Infection 162)

RRR

RR = 8/21720 / 162/21726 = 0.049

RRR = 1 - RR = 95%

Then, he computed the ARR.

ARR

162/21726 - 8/21720 = 0.007 = 0.7%

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0.7 = 142.8

And this is the best case scenario.

Other authors have detected omissions in the study published by the mRNA manufacturers, and have computed the NNTV to be 256:

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4347/rr-4

The worst case scenario is 885:

https://knowledgeofhealth.com/99-us-population-not-benefit-from-mass-vaccination-pfizers-rna-19-vaccine/

So, you see, I have done everyone here a big favor by having presented only the best case scenario, which is 142.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:38:01 AM by sandokhan »

#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #846 on: April 14, 2021, 02:25:08 AM »
The funniest thing is that you literally calculated the RRR (which was what was ASSUMED to be 90%) as 0% and you didn't stop to think "huh, maybe I've messed up somewhere".

Is this supposed to be a joke on your part?

If the rates do not differ, then RR has a null value of 1. This is commonly known.

You do not "assume" the RRR. You computed it afterwards using the data at hand.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 02:26:41 AM by sandokhan »

#### Pezevenk

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #847 on: April 14, 2021, 02:49:03 AM »
Sandokhan, what you don't seem to understand is that the absolute risk reduction has to take into account the absolute risk. That is the whole point. The absolute risk for unvaccinated people and for that particular duration and in the particular region where the test was conducted is indeed 0.43%. Except that does not reflect the absolute risk throughout the pandemic and for any country. In Manaus for example more than 75% of people have gotten sick. The absolute risk in Manaus throughout the pandemic has been 75%, not 0.43%. It also doesn't take into account the fact that vaccines slow down the spread of the virus but that is another story.

You really can't draw the conclusion you are drawing. What is important here is that around 10 times fewer people are gonna get sick. If you accept that, and if you accept that without the vaccines there may well be tens or hundreds of millions new cases, and millions of new deaths, it's not very hard to see that this would protect millions.

Quote
If the rates do not differ, then RR has a null value of 1. This is commonly known.

Indeed, if the rates between the control group and the test group are the same, which is not the case in this thought experiment.

Quote
You do not "assume" the RRR.

You can assume it in order to conduct an idealised thought experiment to sanity check your method. The assumption is that 90% of people who get vaccinated become immune, whereas otherwise they wouldn't be. This corresponds to a RRR of 90%. It is very simple. You started from this, you made a bunch of completely irrelevant calculations and you ended up with a RRR of 0%. If your conclusion contradicts your premise, you made an error (or many errors).

Not that I expect someone who somehow calculated a 0% RRR together with a 99% ARR for an imaginary vaccine which had been assumed to immunize 90% of people, and saw nothing wrong with it.

Or someone who wrote this:

Quote
ARR = 100/10000 - 10/1000 = 1/10 - 1/100 = 0.1 - 0.01 = 0.99, which is exceptional

Can you work out these numbers again sandokhan, but a bit more slowly this time?
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It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
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#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #848 on: April 14, 2021, 03:34:49 AM »
In Manaus for example more than 75% of people have gotten sick.

Yes, the P.1 and the N.9 strains in action.

That is NOT the ARR of the trial vaccines.

Pfizer published the raw data, as did Moderna.

The ARR of these studies is 0.7%, respectively 1.1%.

These are the numbers you are refusing to deal with. There is no other ARR: only 0.7%.

Let us go back to the trick you used in your OP.

Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated, but all the people who do get exposed and aren't vaccinated do get sick. Now assume a test group of 10,000 and a control group of again 10,000, and that during the few weeks of the tests, 1% of people get exposed in each group. That means 100 sick people in the control group, 10 in the other one.

1% of 10000 is 100, of course. Yet you say "10 in the other one". But 10 is 0.1% of 10000. So what you surreptitiously did is to take 1% out of 1000.

By your own assumption 9000 out of 10000 people who get the vaccine do not get sick. Then, the figure which is used in the clinical study is 1000, not 10000. See where you went wrong?

0.1 - 0.01 = 0.09, thanks for pointing this out.

ARR = 0.09 = 9%

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/9 = 10.1.

These are the correct figures for your study.

#### sokarul

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #849 on: April 14, 2021, 03:50:54 AM »
Part way there. Pezevenk also caught 100/10000 is equal to 1/10 according to you. Are you going to fix that?
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#### Pezevenk

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #850 on: April 14, 2021, 03:52:09 AM »
Yes, the P.1 and the N.9 strains in action.

Doesn't matter. Most countries at this point have significant numbers, much higher than 0.43%. The US has had around 32 million cases, which is around 10%, and likely higher since a lot of the cases aren't recorded. These numbers are only expected to increase (or they would be, had there not been vaccinations slowing down the growth).

Quote
These are the numbers you are refusing to deal with. There is no other ARR: only 0.7%.

What does this number regard? Think about it.

Quote
1% of 10000 is 100, of course. Yet you say "10 in the other one". But 10 is 0.1% of 10000. So what you surreptitiously did is to take 1% out of 1000.

? It is very simple. If 1% of each group is exposed, then in each group 100 people are exposed. In the unvaccinated group, all of them get sick because none are immune. In the vaccinated group, only 10% of the 1% who gets exposed actually gets sick. The test group size is still the same. Except 10 times less people end up getting sick. Very basic.

Quote
By your own assumption 9000 out of 10000 people who get the vaccine do not get sick.

No, 9 out of 10 people who ARE EXPOSED TO THE VIRUS don't get sick. Alternatively, 9/10 are immune. That was the whole premise. The two are not the same because not everyone gets exposed.

Quote
0.1 - 0.01 = 0.09, thanks for pointing this out.

Except your other calculation is also wrong. 100/10000 is 0.01, not 0.1. So your calculation gives 0. Which is nonsense obviously.
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#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #851 on: April 14, 2021, 04:03:23 AM »
You are wasting everyone's time here with your nonsense.

Data for Pfizer

Vaccine (No infection 21712, Infection 8 )

Placebo (No infection 21564, Infection 162)

RRR

RR = 8/21720 / 162/21726 = 0.049

RRR = 1 - RR = 95%

Then, he computed the ARR.

ARR

162/21726 - 8/21720 = 0.007 = 0.7%

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0.7 = 142.8

And this is the best case scenario.

Other authors have detected omissions in the study published by the mRNA manufacturers, and have computed the NNTV to be 256:

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4347/rr-4

The worst case scenario is 885:

https://knowledgeofhealth.com/99-us-population-not-benefit-from-mass-vaccination-pfizers-rna-19-vaccine/

So, you see, I have done everyone here a big favor by having presented only the best case scenario, which is 142.

You must accept the 142 figure for the NNTV. Before I posted the reference, you had no idea about the difference between the RRR and the ARR.

It is only the ARR which counts in clinical studies, as quoted by the FDA.

#### sandokhan

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #852 on: April 14, 2021, 04:16:55 AM »
Except your other calculation is also wrong. 100/10000 is 0.01, not 0.1. So your calculation gives 0. Which is nonsense obviously.

No. It means your "study" is completely useless, as NNTV then is equal to infinity.

No, 9 out of 10 people who ARE EXPOSED TO THE VIRUS don't get sick.

Cut the crap. You think your word games work with me?

Here is what you wrote:

"Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated"

IF THEY HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, right?

What did I say?

By your own assumption 9000 out of 10000 people who get the vaccine do not get sick.

Which means I am correct.

How in the world are you going to count the number of people in your test group as 10000, when you said it yourself that 9000 are immune to the virus, thanks to the vaccine? You have just eliminated 9000 people from your test group.

1% of 10000 is 100, of course. Yet you say "10 in the other one". But 10 is 0.1% of 10000. So what you surreptitiously did is to take 1% out of 1000.

You can't have it both ways.

The ARR for your useless study comes up to be 0. Then, NNTV = infinity. Try again.

?

#### WISHTOLAUGH

• 546
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #853 on: April 14, 2021, 04:17:07 AM »
To sandokhan:

Pro tip: try to sanity check your results by working "backwards". In this case, assume a really effective vaccine, and work out what you would expect to see in an experiment like that. Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated, but all the people who do get exposed and aren't vaccinated do get sick. Now assume a test group of 10,000 and a control group of again 10,000, and that during the few weeks of the tests, 1% of people get exposed in each group. That means 100 sick people in the control group, 10 in the other one. According to your brilliant methodology, the benefit turns out to be 0.9%. Except the assumption was that 90% of people who take it are immune.

According to what you tried to do there, you need to vaccinate 1000/9=about 111 people to prevent one case. Except this is clearly nonsensical. If you try the same calculation but with 10% of the people getting exposed this time, this only becomes around 11 people to vaccinate. Do it for everyone being exposed and now it is only about 1. Your figure changes according to how many people are exposed to the virus, so obviously it is silly and worthless. Not to mention that vaccinating, say, 40% of people with a 90% effective vaccine only leaves 64% of people to work with, which makes its spread slower, contributing to even fewer deaths.

All this analysis shouldn't have been required tbh, it should have been obvious from the fact that the figures you posted show that the vaccinated people who got sick are only a fraction of the control group, which you can simply extrapolate to the total number of covid cases and easily see how many cases and how many deaths would have been prevented.

Weren't you supposed to have written the bestest math book evar?

Edit: damn I just noticed this is an old thread...
Not only did you notice it is an old thread, you probably noticed your assumptions are not even close to what happens in the real world.

People getting vaccinated still get the virus, people not getting vaccinated are not getting the virus at near the rates you propose, and when all is said and done, the virus is no more severe than the flu.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 04:25:13 AM by WISHTOLAUGH »

#### sokarul

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #854 on: April 14, 2021, 04:25:22 AM »
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#### sokarul

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #855 on: April 14, 2021, 04:27:47 AM »
To sandokhan:

Pro tip: try to sanity check your results by working "backwards". In this case, assume a really effective vaccine, and work out what you would expect to see in an experiment like that. Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated, but all the people who do get exposed and aren't vaccinated do get sick. Now assume a test group of 10,000 and a control group of again 10,000, and that during the few weeks of the tests, 1% of people get exposed in each group. That means 100 sick people in the control group, 10 in the other one. According to your brilliant methodology, the benefit turns out to be 0.9%. Except the assumption was that 90% of people who take it are immune.

According to what you tried to do there, you need to vaccinate 1000/9=about 111 people to prevent one case. Except this is clearly nonsensical. If you try the same calculation but with 10% of the people getting exposed this time, this only becomes around 11 people to vaccinate. Do it for everyone being exposed and now it is only about 1. Your figure changes according to how many people are exposed to the virus, so obviously it is silly and worthless. Not to mention that vaccinating, say, 40% of people with a 90% effective vaccine only leaves 64% of people to work with, which makes its spread slower, contributing to even fewer deaths.

All this analysis shouldn't have been required tbh, it should have been obvious from the fact that the figures you posted show that the vaccinated people who got sick are only a fraction of the control group, which you can simply extrapolate to the total number of covid cases and easily see how many cases and how many deaths would have been prevented.

Weren't you supposed to have written the bestest math book evar?

Edit: damn I just noticed this is an old thread...
Not only did you notice it is an old thread, you probably noticed your assumptions are not even close to what happens in the real world.

People getting vaccinated still get the virus,
Correct. A vaccine is not a force field.

Quote
people not getting vaccinated are not getting the virus at near the rates you propose, and when all is said and done, the virus is no more severe than the flu.
incorrect. The virus is worse than the flu. The data backs this up.
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#### WISHTOLAUGH

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #856 on: April 14, 2021, 04:31:50 AM »
To sandokhan:

Pro tip: try to sanity check your results by working "backwards". In this case, assume a really effective vaccine, and work out what you would expect to see in an experiment like that. Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated, but all the people who do get exposed and aren't vaccinated do get sick. Now assume a test group of 10,000 and a control group of again 10,000, and that during the few weeks of the tests, 1% of people get exposed in each group. That means 100 sick people in the control group, 10 in the other one. According to your brilliant methodology, the benefit turns out to be 0.9%. Except the assumption was that 90% of people who take it are immune.

According to what you tried to do there, you need to vaccinate 1000/9=about 111 people to prevent one case. Except this is clearly nonsensical. If you try the same calculation but with 10% of the people getting exposed this time, this only becomes around 11 people to vaccinate. Do it for everyone being exposed and now it is only about 1. Your figure changes according to how many people are exposed to the virus, so obviously it is silly and worthless. Not to mention that vaccinating, say, 40% of people with a 90% effective vaccine only leaves 64% of people to work with, which makes its spread slower, contributing to even fewer deaths.

All this analysis shouldn't have been required tbh, it should have been obvious from the fact that the figures you posted show that the vaccinated people who got sick are only a fraction of the control group, which you can simply extrapolate to the total number of covid cases and easily see how many cases and how many deaths would have been prevented.

Weren't you supposed to have written the bestest math book evar?

Edit: damn I just noticed this is an old thread...
Not only did you notice it is an old thread, you probably noticed your assumptions are not even close to what happens in the real world.

People getting vaccinated still get the virus,
Correct. A vaccine is not a force field.

Quote
people not getting vaccinated are not getting the virus at near the rates you propose, and when all is said and done, the virus is no more severe than the flu.
incorrect. The virus is worse than the flu. The data backs this up.
The data backs up no such thing.

People not getting vaccinated have just as much a chance at not catching the virus.

The flu has killed more people than all coronaviruses combined.

#### sokarul

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #857 on: April 14, 2021, 04:45:52 AM »
“34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 influenza season.”

Over 345,000 deaths in 2020 from COVID.

Math much?
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#### WISHTOLAUGH

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #858 on: April 14, 2021, 05:12:41 AM »
“34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 influenza season.”

Over 345,000 deaths in 2020 from COVID.

Math much?
19-20 million killed during one season of the flu, with a reported 2 million from Covid (if that number is even true, given all deaths were attributed to covid if a sign of the disease was present).

Math much?

#### Pezevenk

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##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #859 on: April 14, 2021, 05:53:43 AM »
Stop repeating the same stuff just to inflate your posts sandokhan.

No. It means your "study" is completely useless, as NNTV then is equal to infinity.

No, that was your conclusion. Remember, the premise was that we have a vaccine that produces immunity 9/10 times. Then you did a bunch of terrible math and concluded that the NNTV is infinity, but this is obviously nonsense.

Once again, that NNTV is dependent on how likely it is that someone will be exposed to the disease. If 1% of people are exposed and 9/10 people who do the vaccine are immunised, then in 10,000 people 10 people will get sick, as opposed to 100 which would be the case if they weren't vaccinated. So you "save" 90 in 10,000 cases, so around 111 people for one case. Except while 1% may be a realistic percentage of people who may get sick during the test, it is not a realistic number throughout the pandemic. Without vaccinations and measures to reduce spread, it may very well be that more than 70% of people end up getting sick, which obviously drastically decreases the NNTV. You didn't find the NNTV, you found the NNTV for this particular study for that particular time frame in that particular region. Which says nothing interesting, period.

Even a perfectly effective vaccine that perfectly immunizes everyone would only have an "ARR" of 0.43% in the context of the study you talked about. According to you that is useless. A perfectly effective vaccine that immunizes literally every single person that receives it would be "useless" in this pandemic which has infected upwards of 20% the population of some countries, and has resulted in millions of deaths.

Also you started by saying that your method showed that the ARR in that case is 99%, which is "excellent", your words. Then I showed you your arithmetical errors, and you only corrected one at first, which brought it down to 9.9%. You acted like that is still in agreement with your point. Then I pointed out that you didn't correct the other error, which brought it down to 0%. We went from 99% to 9% to 0% and you're still acting like nothing changed and all of these results are consistent with your view lmao

Quote

"Assume that 9 out of 10 people who get exposed to the virus don't get sick if they have been vaccinated"

IF THEY HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, right?

I literally said "9 out of 10 people WHO GET EXPOSED" in the sentence you quoted. Do you notice the difference with what you wrote?

Quote

By your own assumption 9000 out of 10000 people who get the vaccine do not get sick.

Do you see it now?

Quote

How in the world are you going to count the number of people in your test group as 10000, when you said it yourself that 9000 are immune to the virus, thanks to the vaccine? You have just eliminated 9000 people from your test group.

Why would you exclude the people that the vaccine worked on from the test group in the study where the very thing you are studying is how well the vaccine works on people (leaving aside that you can't know beforehand who it worked on to exclude them anyways)? Obviously you will conclude that the vaccine is no effective at all since you excluded all the people that the vaccine worked on from the test. HOW CAN YOU NOT SEE THIS AAAAAA
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 05:58:42 AM by Pezevenk »
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#### JJA

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• Math is math!
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #860 on: April 14, 2021, 05:55:51 AM »
Did you consume ouzo before you came up with this piece?

Did you forget to take your meds today?

Massive ignorance on how vaccines, viruses, bacteria and immune systems work is not a good argument.  Not to mention your complete inability to understand statistics.

Calm down and take your shot.  It's not going to fill you with mind control tracking devices or give you cooties.

#### Pezevenk

• 15331
• Militant aporfyrodrakonist
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #861 on: April 14, 2021, 05:58:01 AM »
“34,200 deaths during the 2018–2019 influenza season.”

Over 345,000 deaths in 2020 from COVID.

Math much?
19-20 million killed during one season of the flu, with a reported 2 million from Covid (if that number is even true, given all deaths were attributed to covid if a sign of the disease was present).

Math much?

What flu season? The Spanish flu?
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #862 on: April 14, 2021, 05:59:15 AM »

I ran the numbers on your study. You come up empty handed. I did correct my initial calculations.

Here are figures for the Pfizer vaccine.

Vaccine (No infection 21712, Infection 8 )

Placebo (No infection 21564, Infection 162)

RRR

RR = 8/21720 / 162/21726 = 0.049

RRR = 1 - RR = 95%

Then, he computed the ARR.

ARR

162/21726 - 8/21720 = 0.007 = 0.7%

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0.7 = 142.8

You have no idea what a vaccine is or does. A true vaccine prevents transmission and offers immunity. In this case, the BCG vaccine would have been more suitable.

You are advocating a leaky vaccine which is going to lead to a lot of trouble.

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #863 on: April 14, 2021, 06:01:46 AM »
Covid-19, the avian flu (M. avium + passenger viruses) was OVER in February 2020. Our immune systems handled this pandemic brilliantly. However, a terrifying thing occurred on January 11, 2020: one of the least knowledgeable epidemiologists in the world received an email and started right away the vaccine test trials in his lab at BioNTech. The catastrophe had been unleashed. As soon as he had started using HeLa cell lines, the new much more powerful strain appeared at once: the D614G. Then the other "vaccine" companies started their trial vaccines as well. Already, by March 2020, the D614G strains had replaced the Wuhan strain all over the world, and no one could explain how that could happen. The trial vaccines tests intensified in the UK, SA, Brazil (exactly where the new even more powerful strains emerged: B.1.1.7, B.1.351, P.1). The disaster had been unleashed.

Unable to think clearly, lacking the most basic knowledge of astrobiology, medical doctors all over the world put forth the catastrophic opinion that Covid-19 can spread through asymptomatic individuals. They had no idea that the pandemic was raining down from the atmosphere, everywhere at once. The vaccines which have been produced so far, are very weak by intentional design. That is why what happened with Marek's disease will occur again.

The only person who understood what is going on, was Dr. G.V. Bossche. Now, he might have other intentions behind his sudden appearance to tell the truth, but he did warn the public. The brutal vaccination program which is ongoing, will of course affect the M. avium. The pandemic will seem to slow down, even to stop (a plateau period), over the next several months, in some places. Then, perhaps starting in August, a new wave unleashed by the M. avium will start. The sudden new increasing numbers of cases will be blamed wholly on the unvaccinated. However, then, the RED LINE will be crossed: many of the vaccinated people will start to develop the Covid-19 symptoms.

SARS-Cov-3 pandemic will emerge: reassortment viruses (H5N8 combined with M. avium as an example), for which no vaccines will ever be available.

Then, the second, real, pathogenic agent (M. avium is BSL-3, the new bacteria will be BSL-4) will come down from the atmosphere. Normally, it would have not caused problems at all, only isolated cases which could have been treated by local medical doctors. As such, because of the HeLa cell lines used in the vaccines, the endemic condition will become a pandemic outbreak.

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #864 on: April 14, 2021, 06:03:06 AM »
Here is the graphic posted by Dr. G.V. Bossche, world's leading expert on vaccines:

#### JJA

• 6616
• Math is math!
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #865 on: April 14, 2021, 06:04:03 AM »

I ran the numbers on your study. You come up empty handed. I did correct my initial calculations.

You posted a bunch of numbers you don't understand and just repeated your anti-vax conspiracy nonsense again.

The COVID vaccines work, are effective, and anyone who cares about other people should take them.

None of your ignorance changes that.

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #866 on: April 14, 2021, 06:06:52 AM »
Did you know that the spike protein of SARS-Cov-2 has prions? Here are the scientific studies:

https://www.scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

http://hmi-us.com/publications/sars-cov-2-prion-like-domains-in-spike-proteins-enable-higher-affinity-to-ace2.html

Therefore, the mRNA vaccines are practically forcing the body to produce spike proteins with prions imbedded in them.

#### JJA

• 6616
• Math is math!
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #867 on: April 14, 2021, 06:07:20 AM »
Here is the graphic posted by Dr. G.V. Bossche, world's leading expert on vaccines:

LOL. The worlds leading expert... got a source for that?  Who exactly declared him the most expert person in the world on vaccines?

"Vanden Bossche studied at Ghent University for his M.D. in Veterinary Medicine from 1980 to 1983. He then obtained his Postdoctoral training in Equine Medicine and Surgery at the Free University of Berlin (1984-1987).

From 1990, Vanden Bossche underwent a Postdoctoral Fellowship in Virology at James A. Baker Institute for Animal Health, Cornell University in New York.

He was board certified in Veterinary Virology in 1990. Two years later he was Board certified in Veterinary Microbiology and Animal Hygiene."

Yeah.... he sounds pretty qualified to treat my horse but I'm not sure I'd pick him to be the world leader in vaccines.

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #868 on: April 14, 2021, 06:09:18 AM »
The Covid vaccines are not effective.

Here is the data:

Vaccine (No infection 21712, Infection 8 )

Placebo (No infection 21564, Infection 162)

RRR

RR = 8/21720 / 162/21726 = 0.049

RRR = 1 - RR = 95%

ARR

162/21726 - 8/21720 = 0.007 = 0.7%

NNTV = 1/ARR = 100/0.7 = 142.8

https://www.mdpi.com/1648-9144/57/3/199/htm

You have no idea what a vaccine is or does. A true vaccine prevents transmission and offers immunity. In this case, the BCG vaccine would have been more suitable.

You are advocating a leaky vaccine which is going to lead to a lot of trouble.

#### sandokhan

• Flat Earth Sultan
• Flat Earth Scientist
• 6765
##### Re: Is COVID-19 Caused by a Virus or a Mycobacterium?
« Reply #869 on: April 14, 2021, 06:10:59 AM »
See how little you know?

Dr. G.V. Bossche.

Geert Vanden Bossche received his DVM from the University of Ghent, Belgium, and his PhD degree in Virology from the University of Hohenheim, Germany. He held adjunct faculty appointments at universities in Belgium and Germany. After his career in Academia, Geert joined several vaccine companies (GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines, Solvay Biologicals) to serve various roles in vaccine R&D as well as in late vaccine development. Geert then moved on to join the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation’s Global Health Discovery team in Seattle (USA) as Senior Program Officer; he then worked with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) in Geneva as Senior Ebola Program Manager. At GAVI he tracked efforts to develop an Ebola vaccine. He also represented GAVI in fora with other partners, including WHO, to review progress on the fight against Ebola and to build plans for global pandemic preparedness. Back in 2015, Geert scrutinized and questioned the safety of the Ebola vaccine that was used in ring vaccination trials conducted by WHO in Guinea. His critical scientific analysis and report on the data published by WHO in the Lancet in 2015 was sent to all international health and regulatory authorities involved in the Ebola vaccination program. After working for GAVI, Geert joined the German Center for Infection Research in Cologne as Head of the Vaccine Development Office.