Why does the sun goes below the horizon?

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Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« on: May 11, 2020, 03:41:20 PM »
Hi everyone, I'm new here. I would have thought that this question was asked before, but after a couple of searches I did not find it anywhere. If this is not the case, please feel free to redirect me. More generally, forgive me in advance if I fail to follow this forum's policies.

The title is quite self-explanatory, but I just want to make my dilemma clear. According to the flat-earth model, the sun keeps an orbit which is constantly above the plane of the earth (correct me if I'm wrong). During the night, the sun should simply be further away from us, but still above the horizon. Why this is not the case? I'd expect to be still able to see the sun at night (maybe a little bit dimmer because of its increased distance from my point of view), but in everybody's experience the sun falls below the horizon. Doesn't this contradicts the model for the sun's orbit according to (what I think is) the standard theory of flat-earth?

Thank you in advance for any clarification on this point.

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sandokhan

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2020, 08:28:19 AM »
The Sun does rise and set.

For reasons that are unknown, a model was introduced which placed the Sun at a constant orbiting altitude of 4,800 km, which is not even SF.


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wise

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2020, 08:38:09 AM »
we have to vote on this issue.

[we see distant objects lower than they actually are. this is due to the water vapor in the air. the air is less frequent and dry above, more humid and dense below. therefore, the refractive index occurs in between. When this index is between 30 degrees or 45 degrees, the sun goes down. I have to look at my work for the full angle value. There was also a video about how this happened. If I can find it, I will add it to this answer].


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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2020, 01:12:43 PM »
Thank you for your answers!

The Sun does rise and set.

For reasons that are unknown, a model was introduced which placed the Sun at a constant orbiting altitude of 4,800 km, which is not even SF.

This comes as a surprise to me... i was persuaded that the orbit of constant altitude constituted some sort of "canonical" model for flat-earth.
The image you linked appears to represent some sort of zoroastrianist astrological model, if I'm not wrong. This is really fascinating, but I find it strange that the majority of flat-earth material I stumbled upon during my research use a completely different model.

we have to vote on this issue.

Uhmm i guess this validates my suspicion that there could be some kind of a "lack-of-consensus" issue here. Curious. I wonder if a canonical corpus of an unitary and cohesive flat-earth theory has ever been drawn up? In any case, I don't think that voting would be the best way to decide which theory is more sound... science is about truth, not democracy.

[we see distant objects lower than they actually are. this is due to the water vapor in the air. the air is less frequent and dry above, more humid and dense below. therefore, the refractive index occurs in between. When this index is between 30 degrees or 45 degrees, the sun goes down. I have to look at my work for the full angle value. There was also a video about how this happened. If I can find it, I will add it to this answer].

I also thought of refraction. But, while it is true that change in temperature/density of air can make things appear lower than the horizon, they still are visible 'over' the lower hemisphere of vision (like in "overlay" over the earth). This is what happens in some kind of mirages, so to speak.

The fact that we see the sun falling under the horizon even when the atmospheric conditions would not immediately authorize the use of refraction as an explanation is another point to consider, in my opinion. I'd love to see your work on the matter, in any case!

Thank you again, cheers

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wise

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2020, 03:12:33 AM »
Do not split my posts again, please. I am not doing it for yours.

the problem is that the truth is not the only one. Both theories described above can be supported theoretically and practically. I have to make a correction here. I described the refraction of the light in lack. the sun is located above the water layer and the slope of the sunlight passing through that layer is directed upwards. This cause you see it downside.

Here it is : https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66236.msg2180361#msg2180361



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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2020, 10:51:12 AM »
I am sorry, it didn't come to my mind that quoting specific parts of someone else's post could cause discomfort or nuisance. I did it just to easily recall what i was going to refer to, but I'll try not to do this again if it annoys you.

Anyway, how can two mutually incompatible theories be supported both theoretically and practically? This seems like a contradiction in terms. Different models can be studied for a given phaenomenon, but the universe is one... so if the models are in contradiction, at least one of them must be false. Tertium non datur.

Thank you for providing a link to your analysis of refraction with respect to the issue of the sun's appearance. If I understood correctly, some of the images that you provide assume that the sun is above a dense layer ("dome"), some other seem to imply that the sun is inside such dome. Which of the two scenarios correspond to the idea that you consider closer to reality?

Thank you again for your time and patience.

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wise

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2020, 01:42:03 PM »
Okay, no problem.

Yeah, more than one theory can be confirmed both theorical and practically in the same situation. This is the reason for the chaos that science is experiencing but hiding now. I want to give an example how it comes. You can show a statistical data for more than one reason. For example, the sun is going down because the earth is round and disappeared from the other side. this makes sense. That's the theory, and you can prove it by showing that the sun goes down. Likewise, I can argue that a layer of water in the sky causes the sun rays to break, even though the earth is flat, and therefore we see the sun sinking. this is a theory and I prove it practically by showing that the sun goes down. science has worked like this so far. so the theory of sandokhan also makes sense. The shape he draws is theoretical, the correct theory as long as the sun goes down and is born in accordance with the shape.

science couldn't he could not prove gravitation in a laboratory setting. A small object that you put next to an object of tons of size cannot be atract in any way. If you want to solve this problem, you can say that an object must be very large to have gravity. For example, they can cover up all the mistakes they make about the shape of the world by producing a concept called "magnetic declination". like this. Even if your theory is wrong, you can correct the situation with a new theory that will correct your mistake. this makes many theories valid on the same subject.

popular science tends to eliminate other theories immediately if there is a theory consensus in a subject. For this, it is not necessary to prove that others are wrong. Since all of them can already be true, he accepts one correctly and accepts the others wrong to ensure uniqueness. I was irony when I said "let's vote for it" above.

we reject this approach of popular science. they are all theory and can be true. in fact, the sphere world is one of the other theories and it may be true. but we think the world is flat. and I am not talking, on behalf of myself, of the very low probability that the world is a sphere. the reason for this is a reaction to popular science that accepting it right and accepting other theories wrong, without disprove them. this issue is sustainable but I am cutting it here. I'm going back to the subject. You are asking which one I accept the sun whether above or inside the dome.

sun is surely on above the dome. however, the projection looks so because it is inside the dome. Although the distance of the sun is calculated around 5000kms, the dome is much closer. it's a little over a hundred kilometers. In the drawings in the link I provided, the light source is sometimes above the water but sometimes inside the water. The reason for this is to describe the refraction that occurs when the light passes from water to air and from air to water.

I suggested a simple experiment for this. I say this. If you are worried about this theory, get a laser in your hand, reflect the light angled over your aquarium in a dark room and see where the light is heading. then you can see for yourself why the light goes further even though the light is actually above.


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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2020, 03:34:59 PM »
Hey, thank you for such a lenghty answer. I really appreciate your effort in making your point clear.

I see some interesting aspects in some of your argumentations. You said that, for example, we can prove that the theory of the round earth is valid by showing that the sun goes down, but this does not constitute a proof: in only shows that the empirical evidence is in accordance with the theory. As you say, more than one theory can predict a phaenomenon, but this does not mean that all those theories are sound.

I may come up with a very imaginative explanation for the sun movement: it is the mystical chariot of Apollo, traned by horses. This explains why the sun moves. But this is not a scientifically accurate description, and thus it should not be accepted as truth, not even an "alternative", or "equally valid" truth.
If your theory needs to acknowledge the existence of a god which, for some reason, feels the urge to ride a magic chariot through the sky... then you have a problem, because of weak inner coherence (the same tradition tells that Apollo does a lot of other stuff during the daytime... so who drives the chariot then?), has no other empirical evidence to support itself, and so on.

If I didn't misunderstand, your support for Flat-Earth is mostly a reaction to a perceived "tyranny" of standard science (it may also be a sincere personal belief but I'll ignore this aspect). While this position is understandable and even worth of praise for the innovative spirit that it carries on, it can lead us to ignore legitimate evidence of the currently accepted theories, or to overvalue or misinterpret any alleged evidence of the contrary. The vice-versa is also true: a blind faith in standard theories is equally harmful because of its detrimental impact on innovation and discovery. A good theory should be falsifiable, and an earnest theorist should want its theory to be falsified as soon as possible.

Your discredit of some common accepted scientific concepts, for example, seems a bit hasty to me. Gravity can be easily observed in laboratory: the Cavendish experiment has been repeated countless times since the late 18th century, and can be recreated with very mundane equipment. Magnetic declination is simply a definition of an angle, given by the difference between the magnetic and geographic poles: as such, it is still perfectly valid even if we accept flat-earth.

Anyway, I still can not agree with the assertion that standard science rejects other theories without proving them wrong. It is the job of the new theory to prove itself better, and in fact, if a new theory shows to be more apt to describe reality, it is generally accepted. The issue is that, as far as I can tell, Flat-Earth theories may have an hard time substituting accepted models: a good FE theory should prove itself "better" than the pre-existing theory. What validates a theory is a mix of several factors: inner coherence, accordance with empirical data, and so on. If two theories are more or less equally able to explain the world, generally the simpler one is preferred: the one that make less arbitrary assumptions, the one with the simplest and more elegant math, etc. An instance of Occam's razor, if you wish.

Now, why should I prefer Flat-Earth over Round-Earth? I subscribed to this forum to find out, with a very open mindset, but I am a bit disappointed to see that there's so little agreement among flat earthers, even on crucial aspects like the orbit of the sun, and the issue is dismissed by saying "both models are valid". This sounds very unscientific to me.

Please forgive my frankness, and thank you again for your contribution. I am sincerely grateful for the time you spent ansering me.

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wise

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2020, 05:47:17 AM »
this is not a discussion forum. I think the necessary answers are given. good day.


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boydster

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2020, 04:26:53 PM »
panourgos, Q&A is for asking FE questions and getting FE answers. If you'd like to discuss and/or debate things further, you are welcome to take it to FE General or FE Debate.

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John Davis

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2020, 09:44:14 PM »
Below and above are relative; i'd suggest looking into such things. Now is the time where it might be important - where we have a slim chance to stop the what is happening.
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wise

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2020, 05:28:32 AM »
Below and above are relative; i'd suggest looking into such things. Now is the time where it might be important - where we have a slim chance to stop the what is happening.
I suggested 4 years ago. If you move at the same speed in the direction of the sun's movement, your time stops theoretically. because in this case, the sun does not rise and does not set relative to you. Although economical and difficult in the rest of the world, it can be done with ordinary jets in places like Norway and Alaska. So if your plane is faster than the sun's rotate - this is possible in a route passing Norway, Alaska and Tiksi - then time goes backwards?


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faded mike

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Re: Why does the sun goes below the horizon?
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 01:57:08 PM »
I think the horizon is an area where the sky is reflected and that this generally happens at specific angles due to atmospheric factors, hence viewing from the crows nest of a ship can extend the distance to this partticular angle (beyond which and continuing to a ceratindistance?) at which the sky is reflected. this can be seen in youtube videos of the horizon where ther are sometimes floating waves abov the horizon. Just my current understanding.
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