Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2020, 12:50:40 PM »
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The Moons destiny is to have its orbit decay and break apart as it passes the Roche limit.

How do you figure that one out? The Roche limit of the Earth is just a tad less than 11,500km and the Moons distance is already nearly 385,000km and increasing. 

Is the Moon going to suddenly change its mind, turn around and start approaching Earth?

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2020, 01:21:36 PM »
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Does it mean that 95% of people who believe in round Earth are wrong or something?

Of course not. It means the onus is on the 5% of people who don't subscribe to the overwhelmingly popular view that is held by the remaining 95% to come up with a very good reason why.

If a particular view is supported by 95% of what is a very large population of people then there has got to be a reason why don't you think?  If there was a vote (call it a referendum if you like which normally had two options) and 95% of people vote the same way then by anyones estimation that would be called a landslide victory.
Truth is not decided by popular vote.
The majority of people believing something is not a reason to think it is true, nor does it remove the burden of proof.

Loads of people will believe things which are pure nonsense, simply because it has been told to them by someone in authority. Take a look at the countless religions for great examples of that.

Check that cave of yours. The Moons destiny is to have its orbit decay and break apart as it passes the Roche limit. It will end its life as it began. As a ring around the Earth.
Got any evidence for that nonsense?

Refrain from spamming and read the papers you link.
Perhaps you should follow your own advice and stop spamming until you have something to back up your claims?

No simple answer doesn't mean it is unstable.

If you want to claim it is a problem that means you need to show it is unstable, not just show that we aren't certain if it is stable.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2020, 01:29:36 PM »
And you could also read this: Dynamics and Stability System by Jefferys, W. H. & Szebehely, V. G.

Refrain from spamming and read the papers you link.


Well we are humans so of course that we still don't know almost anything about universe, but it doesn't mean that we mustn't know anything about our planet. Yes, we don't know everything about it but some basic stuff we do know.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2020, 01:30:49 PM »
And you could also read this: Dynamics and Stability System by Jefferys, W. H. & Szebehely, V. G.

Refrain from spamming and read the papers you link.



Simple and elegant formula...
And neither do they have for double pendulums...
Again with weak arguments.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2020, 01:35:02 PM »
Let me ask you this: How many RE models are there (clue its less than 2) and then how many FE models are there?  What does that tell you.

It tells me that you are trolling. There are multiple RE models of gravity. Disagreements about the age of the universe, size of the universe, model of the sun, nature of the galaxies, etc. On nearly every subject we can find disagreement, many in the mainstream, regardless of whether you only declare only one view to be 'correct' .

If you want to tell us about FE who believe in a religious firmament I can tell you about a significant number of religious RE who believe that the earth is 6000 years old and motionless. The different views on RE actually outnumbers anything FE produces. Asking us not to compare that is total hypocracy.

If both re has too many models and fe has too many models then -
All roads lead to conspircay.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2020, 01:50:04 PM »
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Does it mean that 95% of people who believe in round Earth are wrong or something?

Of course not. It means the onus is on the 5% of people who don't subscribe to the overwhelmingly popular view that is held by the remaining 95% to come up with a very good reason why.

If a particular view is supported by 95% of what is a very large population of people then there has got to be a reason why don't you think?  If there was a vote (call it a referendum if you like which normally had two options) and 95% of people vote the same way then by anyones estimation that would be called a landslide victory.

What are the chances do you think of us ever seeing a day when this proportion is reversed?

It could be but this is not a war or competition. We are free to thing and to use our senses (i know that they are electric impulses based) to know, what is real and what is not. If there is more people to believe that earth is round (like water drop without any gravitational force affecting it), so it doesn't matter. I'm not blaming anyone about that they believe that Earth is flat. They can believe in it and it is ok but some people thinks that they are something more than others and that worries me a little. You know, my thought is that everything is possible but it also has some limits like if you see a cube, then it is not a sphere right? Or everything is lying to us? Maybe, but we don't know.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2020, 02:46:36 PM »
The string is a straight line joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.
That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!



I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

A green arrow pointing at Sun, attached with string. Purple arrow in background pointed into sky:



From another angle:



WOW!!! The Purple Arrow Must Be Pointed at the Sun!!

There is no way looking at a body from its underside, especially in close proximity, can give a fallacious result.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 02:53:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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rabinoz

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2020, 02:47:47 PM »
And you could also read this: Dynamics and Stability System by Jefferys, W. H. & Szebehely, V. G.

Refrain from spamming and read the papers you link.

And why is that "spamming"? Many of the papers that you quote from have passages that destroy you flat Earth ideas.

First you might read this about the The Kolmogorov-Arnol'd-Moser Theory:


And secondly, actual simulations have shown that the Solar System planets are expected to remain in stable orbits for far further into the future than might concern the human race.
The orbits of Pluto, the other minor planets might be grossly changed or they might even be ejected. The asteroids are known to be in chaotic motion.
In the long term, if our Moon moves outside the Earth's gravitational sphere of influence if may either become a minor planet or be ejected entirely.

So the type of stability needs to be carefully defined.
In a system that follows the Newtonian Laws of Motion and Gravitation even a two-body system is not asymptotically stable. If a body in a stable circular or elliptical orbit is perturbed it be moved to do a different orbit. If the perturbation is not too large the new orbit will be stable and not far from the original orbit.

This type of stability is known as Lyapunov stability and is quite distinct from the "asymptotic stability" of say, a hanging pendulum which, when perturbed, will return to its original stable position.

Quote
Lyapunov stability
Various types of stability may be discussed for the solutions of differential equations or difference equations describing dynamical systems. The most important type is that concerning the stability of solutions near to a point of equilibrium.

This may be discussed by the theory of Aleksandr Lyapunov. In simple terms, if the solutions that start out near an equilibrium point xe stay near xe forever, then xe is Lyapunov stable. More strongly, if xe is Lyapunov stable and all solutions that start out near xe converge to xe, then xe is asymptotically stable.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2020, 02:48:02 PM »
Richard Feynman a well known physicist once said that science has never sought to find the right answer but it has always sought to find the best answer. For best you can also read simplest.

The best source of flat Earth 'evidence' that I know of is to be found in their 'FE Wiki' so I would recommend you read through that at your leisure. Compare its reasonings and explanations and compare it to the mainstream equivalent. Then decide for yourself which provides the best explanation for what you see.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2020, 02:52:26 PM »
Tom, I have already provided a link to a very comprehensive and detailed document which fully explains how your Moon tilt illusion occurs. Is that not good enough for you?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2020, 03:04:31 PM »
Tom, I have already provided a link to a very comprehensive and detailed document which fully explains how your Moon tilt illusion occurs. Is that not good enough for you?

The Myers paper is discussed in the TFES Moon Tilt Illusion Wiki article: https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Predictive_Equation

You have not addressed this. You just linked to the paper which the Wiki article talks about, and pretend that it's an RE model.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2020, 03:17:34 PM »
The popular FE way of dismissing as wrong or irrelevant anything which shows and explains how things actually work. If it doesn't directly support what you want to believe it must be wrong.


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rabinoz

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2020, 03:25:51 PM »
The string is a straight line joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.
That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!



I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

An arrow pointing at Sun, attached with string. Purple arrow in background pointed into sky.



From another angle:



WOW!!! The Purple Arrow Must Be Pointed at the Sun!!

There is no way looking at a body from an underside, especially in close proximity can give a stupid fallacious result.
So but there is! Have you watched a 'plane rise up from the horizon, gradually change till it appears horizontal when overhead the point down towards the horizon, yet that 'plane is flying at the same altitude all the time

But I have no idea what your random arrows etc are supposed to signify. They are just drawings not even photographs of real situations!

Look at the video again where the tautly stretched string is traced from the Moon end to the Sun end.

Moon Terminator Illusion


And at some segments of the tautly stretched string joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.

That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!
The straight string normal
to the terminator at the Moon end:
      Part way towards the sun
the string levels out:
      And then starts to dip
to the Sun's position:
      And the other end is aligned
with the Sun as in here:

I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

Now, please explain the Moon Terminator Illusion on your favourite flat Earth model but without any unsupported "bendy light" hypotheses!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 03:28:21 PM by rabinoz »

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Stash

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2020, 03:35:07 PM »
Tom, I have already provided a link to a very comprehensive and detailed document which fully explains how your Moon tilt illusion occurs. Is that not good enough for you?

The Myers paper is discussed in the TFES Moon Tilt Illusion Wiki article: https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Predictive_Equation

You have not addressed this. You just linked to the paper which the Wiki article talks about, and pretend that it's an RE model.

Why couldn't you have a Moon Tilt Illusion on a flat earth? I think the illusion is the same with the same optical explanation regardless of the shape of the earth.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2020, 03:37:45 PM »
The string is a straight line joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.
That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!



I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

An arrow pointing at Sun, attached with string. Purple arrow in background pointed into sky.



From another angle:



WOW!!! The Purple Arrow Must Be Pointed at the Sun!!

There is no way looking at a body from an underside, especially in close proximity can give a stupid fallacious result.
So but there is! Have you watched a 'plane rise up from the horizon, gradually change till it appears horizontal when overhead the point down towards the horizon, yet that 'plane is flying at the same altitude all the time

But I have no idea what your random arrows etc are supposed to signify. They are just drawings not even photographs of real situations!

Look at the video again where the tautly stretched string is traced from the Moon end to the Sun end.

Moon Terminator Illusion


And at some segments of the tautly stretched string joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.

That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!
The straight string normal
to the terminator at the Moon end:
      Part way towards the sun
the string levels out:
      And then starts to dip
to the Sun's position:
      And the other end is aligned
with the Sun as in here:

I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

Now, please explain the Moon Terminator Illusion on your favourite flat Earth model but without any unsupported "bendy light" hypotheses!

You have made zero argument. You merely posted your pictures again. Lets see what the scene looks like when the observer steps away.

At MetaDump Mick West angles his camera below the sphere to get it to point upwards like the Moon in the background here:



The ball points upward like the moon, right?

No.

When Mick West stands back far away from the scene we see that the ball on the post is pointing at the Sun and the Moon does not, showing us that it was a close range perspective and positioning effect which got the ball to point that way.



Image provided by Mick West. Top red arrow is the Moon, bottom red arrow is the ball on a post. Surprise! When walking away from the scene the ball is pointing at the Sun, as expected, while the Moon points upwards into the sky.

Mick West just positioned the camera up close to and beneath the ball to get it to look like the Moon. If he had elevated his camera the illuminated part would have moved out of sync to the Moon. You can position the camera close around the ball to get the illuminated portion to point in almost any direction you want.

No proof. No evidence. Only fallacy.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 03:55:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2020, 03:40:44 PM »
The string is a straight line joining the ball representing the Moon to the second ball representing the Sun.
That first ball is lit exactly as we see the Moon illuminated and it is what we see that matters!



I fail to see the need for complicating the issue unnecessarily.

A green arrow pointing at Sun, attached with string. Purple arrow in background pointed into sky:



From another angle:



WOW!!! The Purple Arrow Must Be Pointed at the Sun!!

There is no way looking at a body from its underside, especially in close proximity, can give a fallacious result.

Wtf are we supposed to be looking at?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2020, 03:43:10 PM »
It shows that you can position the camera under an object to get it to point upwards. All of these scenes are positioned BENEATH the ball on the string. Just look at them. Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.

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Stash

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2020, 03:46:29 PM »
It shows that you can position the camera under an object to get it to point upwards. All of these scenes are positioned BENEATH the ball on the string. Just look at them. Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.

Hence the illusion. We are 'beneath' the moon and sun as well. Again, why wouldn't the illusion happen on a flat earth? What does the shape of the earth have to do with the illusion?
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2020, 03:53:36 PM »
It shows that you can position the camera under an object to get it to point upwards. All of these scenes are positioned BENEATH the ball on the string. Just look at them. Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.

Hence the illusion. We are 'beneath' the moon and sun as well. Again, why wouldn't the illusion happen on a flat earth? What does the shape of the earth have to do with the illusion?

Now your argument is "its an illusion."  Ludicrous. I would suggest finding a way to show that the illuminated portion of the Moon is pointing at the Sun without relying on fallacies.

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Stash

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2020, 03:55:11 PM »
It shows that you can position the camera under an object to get it to point upwards. All of these scenes are positioned BENEATH the ball on the string. Just look at them. Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.

Hence the illusion. We are 'beneath' the moon and sun as well. Again, why wouldn't the illusion happen on a flat earth? What does the shape of the earth have to do with the illusion?

Now your argument is "its an illusion."  Ludicrous. I would suggest finding a way to show that the illuminated portion of the Moon is pointing at the Sun without relying on fallacies.

You're not addressing the question, dodging it in fact. Are you suggesting that the only way what is called the Moon Tilt ILLUSION can happen is if the world is flat?
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2020, 04:08:21 PM »
It's hard to figure out (as usual) exactly what Toms point is with all this. Is he asserting that it is not the Sun that illuminates the Moon?

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markjo

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2020, 05:04:01 PM »
You haven't proven stabilty of the n-body problems.
Tom, what makes you think that n-body systems are obligated to be stable forever?  It's well accepted that our solar system has not stable over the course of its history.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2020, 05:11:59 PM »
You haven't proven stabilty of the n-body problems.
Tom, what makes you think that n-body systems are obligated to be stable forever?  It's well accepted that our solar system has not stable over the course of its history.

What are you talking about? They can't keep the three body problem together for the Sun-Earth-Moon system for a short amount of time, let alone long periods of time.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:18:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Shifter

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2020, 05:16:25 PM »
Quote
The Moons destiny is to have its orbit decay and break apart as it passes the Roche limit.

How do you figure that one out? The Roche limit of the Earth is just a tad less than 11,500km and the Moons distance is already nearly 385,000km and increasing. 

Is the Moon going to suddenly change its mind, turn around and start approaching Earth?

You are assuming the sun won't swell into a gas giant. You can look it up. When the sun swells, it will disrupt the earth/moon balance

I have already seen it so I know that's the eventuality


Rabinoz = Coronoz. Australias corona virus super spreader

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markjo

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2020, 05:20:28 PM »
You haven't proven stabilty of the n-body problems.
Tom, what makes you think that n-body systems are obligated to be stable forever?  It's well accepted that our solar system has not stable over the course of its history.

What are you talking about? They can't keep the three body problem stable for the Sun-Earth-Moon system for a short amount of time, let alone long periods of time.
Define "stable" and "short amount of time."  Also, what makes you think that the solar system should be stable over long periods of time?  Astrophysicists generally agree that the solar system of a few billion years ago bears little resemblance to the solar system of today.  Why should it look the same a few billion years in the future?

By the way, how does FET get around the problem of n-body descriptions of the FE solar system?  The planets do orbit the sun by means of celestial gravitation, don't they?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 05:23:18 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Stash

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2020, 05:28:17 PM »
You haven't proven stabilty of the n-body problems.
Tom, what makes you think that n-body systems are obligated to be stable forever?  It's well accepted that our solar system has not stable over the course of its history.

What are you talking about? They can't keep the three body problem together for the Sun-Earth-Moon system for a short amount of time, let alone long periods of time.

Oh goodness, the N-Body Problem red herring of your's over and over again. Listen, when FE can predict the path of an eclipse down to the meter level for any point on earth like RE can, you can jabber on about the N-Body problem. In the mean time it's neither here nor there.

Now, can the Moon Tilt Illusion only work on a flat earth?
I see on your Moon Tilt Illusion wiki page it states:
"EA predicts that between rising and midmoon the Moon's phase will be pointed significantly away from the Earth and Sun, angled upwards above it."

Though I can't find anywhere where EA 'predicts' anything. Where are these 'predictions' and how do they work?
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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rabinoz

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #56 on: March 16, 2020, 05:42:39 PM »
It shows that you can position the camera under an object to get it to point upwards.
All of these scenes are positioned BENEATH the ball on the string. Just look at them.
No! The camera in not beneath the balls, the Moon or the Sun! The camera is looking at an angle just as a person would.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.
Of course the camera is pointing at the left ball and Moon at one end and the right ball and Sun at the other.
Then the camera, left ball and Moon are almost in line at one end and the camera, right ball and Sun are almost in line at the other.

It's strange that everybody, including the Wikipedia entry, can see that the Moon Terminator Illusion is no more than simple perspective - except you!
The Moon Tilt Illusion is an intriguing illusion but it is simply an illusion based on viewing directions and perspective.
See The Moon Tilt & Terminator Illusions for a forum discussion on the Moon Tilt Illusion.

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markjo

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Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #57 on: March 16, 2020, 06:09:18 PM »
Though I can't find anywhere where EA 'predicts' anything. Where are these 'predictions' and how do they work?
EA can't predict anything if there is no working formula for EA.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2020, 12:33:04 AM »
A green arrow pointing at Sun, attached with string. Purple arrow in background pointed into sky:
Good job failing to show any problem with the current explanation of the moon terminator illusion.

Providing examples where it isn't pointed at the sun does not show the moon is not pointed towards the sun.
This is very easy to understand.

What you are doing now is like saying that person isn't holding a drink so he hasn't drunk ever in his entire life.

You have made zero argument. You merely posted your pictures again. Lets see what the scene looks like when the observer steps away.
No, that would be you who has made 0 argument.
What it looks like when you step away from the scene such that the objects no longer align with the sun and moon is completely irrelevant.
Not unless you are trying to compare it with an observation very far from Earth observing it.

Unless the ball and moon are aligned, you show nothing.

Total fallacy and failure of demonstration that the object in the background is actually pointing at the Sun like the object in the foreground is.
No, you are the one making the fallacy here.
Remember, we don't need to show conclusively that the moon is pointing towards the sun.
All we need to do is show that an object pointing towards the sun can appear to not be pointing towards it as in the moon terminator illusion.
That has been done, no matter how much you want to ignore it and pretend there are problems.

You have utterly failed to show that the moon is NOT pointing towards the sun, and thus you have utterly failed to demonstrate any problem with the moon terminator illusion on a RE.

The illusion can easily be replicated on Earth with an object clearly pointing towards the sun to show the same apparent not pointing towards the sun.
As such, you have no basis for your claim that the moon terminator illusion is anything but an illusion.

Now, can you show any actual problem with the moon terminator illusion?

Can you produce an actual 3D model of reality (i.e. a RE model with the sun and moon at the appropriate distances) to demonstrate a problem? A model which demonstrates that the moon pointing towards the sun cannot produce an image like those seen for the moon terminator illusion? Especially when simple physical 3D models constructed on Earth show the exact opposite.

They can't keep the three body problem together for the Sun-Earth-Moon system for a short amount of time, let alone long periods of time.
So far all we have for that is your pathetic baseless claim backed up by blatant misrepresentation of facts.
Do you have any actual evidence?

Re: Why is flat earth more accurate theory than globe.
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2020, 04:10:56 AM »
Once again this discussion seems to have wandered off in a completely different direction to the original intended. The question was why is flat Earth a more accurate theory than globe.

Instead we are discussing about Toms beloved topics of n body problem and Moon angle tilt.  How about an answer from the FE side to the original question. Or is that too much to ask?