Little bit confused

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sokarul

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2020, 04:59:12 PM »
It's a bit rich for you guys to complain about maps when you guys still have ludicrous looking maps yourself

I present you with this


Look at Greenland vs Australia. WTF? Plus I could have sworn China should be bigger than that... Seems on par with Australia

This map is globe earthers doing an 'own goal'  ::)
That map is simply a confirmation of what I have stated many times: It is impossible to have a map on a flat sheet of paper that is both accurate and has a fixed scale because the earth is not flat!

Or the globe map is simply nonsense

See how the lines of latitude are not equal? The scale of the map is not a constant. Same goes if the map on your phone.
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magellanclavichord

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2020, 05:01:46 PM »
Quote
I've also tried to believe that my house cat was a tiger.

I have a house cat as well. For home security it would be useful if he was a tiger but can you imagine the vets reaction when I take him for his jabs every year!

On the positive side you wouldn't need to buy tiger food for a week.  ::)

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rabinoz

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2020, 05:08:33 PM »
Most people would agree that the Sun looks yellow for example but is that just a human perception or is a fact of nature? I could write a whole essay on that one.

Well first up, the sun is certainly not yellow. It is white. If it really were yellow, snow would look like it was pissed on. I can assert this with a very high degree of confidence

Also, you can read all the books you want. If the information was wrong, what have you really learned? Are you smarter?
Assert all you want but most seem to disagree with you. Most people seem to claim that the Sun looks slightly yellow.

This is not from any book but from The Internet ;D and:
     
ďYou can believe everything you read in the Internet ;) Except the bits that are false.Ē
                                                                                       - Sir Isaac Newton


Quote
Science ABC: What is the Actual Color of The Sun?
The real color of the sun is white. The reason that the Sun looks yellow to us is because the Earthís atmosphere scatters higher wavelength colors, like red, orange and yellow less easily. Hence, these wavelengths are what we see, which is why the Sun appears yellow.

As a child, you almost certainly drew the Sun in the shape of a face on your notebook, and invariably, the color of the Sunís face would have been yellow. If you had been a fan of sunsets and sunrises, however, then the color of your Sunís face would have been orange or red.

However, you might be surprised to know that the Sun is not orange, yellow, or anything in between. In fact, the color of the Sun is WHITE!

This was my reaction when I heard that too! Even I didnít believe it, but itís true. The Sun, when looked at through outer space, looks perfectly white!


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Shifter

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2020, 10:09:54 PM »
It's a bit rich for you guys to complain about maps when you guys still have ludicrous looking maps yourself

I present you with this


Look at Greenland vs Australia. WTF? Plus I could have sworn China should be bigger than that... Seems on par with Australia

This map is globe earthers doing an 'own goal'  ::)
That map is simply a confirmation of what I have stated many times: It is impossible to have a map on a flat sheet of paper that is both accurate and has a fixed scale because the earth is not flat!

Or the globe map is simply nonsense

See how the lines of latitude are not equal? The scale of the map is not a constant. Same goes if the map on your phone.

Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge


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rabinoz

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2020, 11:22:05 PM »
Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion

If the Earth were already flat then there need be no such distortion and a flat Earth map would just be a small scale replica of the whole Earth.
This might be thought of as similar to the floor plans of a house - just a scale drawing of the full-sized house.

Quote from: Shifter
yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge

No one is laughing, just pointing out that the shapes and distances get more and more incorrect the further from the centre (usually the North Pole) they are. In the Southern parts of Australia, the West to East distances can be three or more times the true distances.

Flat maps of the Globe have unavoidable distortion because some sort of projection is needed to represent a surface with Gaussian curvature onto a plane.

The flat Earth, on the other hand, is already flat, so a map of the flat Earth need have no such distortion.

Maybe you might see the properties of some of the many projections of the Globe if you read some of these. Numerous projections are listed but only a few are in common use.
I don't know which you'll find best:
      GIS Geography: What are Map Projections? (And Why They Are Deceiving to the Human Eye)
      Choosing the Right Map Projection
      esri: Map Projections
      axismaps: Map Projections
      ICSM: Commonly Used Map Projections

This might seem a bit weird but it transitions between many of the projections:
      Map Projection Transitions

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Shifter

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2020, 11:55:05 PM »
Perhaps there is some strange geometry at work. A straight line is not 'straight' on the flat earth and will always appear curved when represented on a 2D map which prevents anyone being able to hit the edge

As we are on a flat earth forum why not 'think tank' what could perhaps explain such a concept? Much more fun and less hostile


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rabinoz

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2020, 12:46:17 AM »
Perhaps there is some strange geometry at work. A straight line is not 'straight' on the flat earth and will always appear curved when represented on a 2D map which prevents anyone being able to hit the edge
Then you have to develop a new physics where light does travel in straight lines in uniform materials
and where objects travel in curves even when not subject to forces of some sort.

There are, of course, already non-Euclidean geometries where "parallel" lines never meet - hyperbolic geometries and where "parallel" lines do intersect - elliptic geometries.
Though the "laws of physics" don't necessarily change in those geometries.

Spherical geometry is an example or the latter ;). See John Davis's non-Euclidean "flat Earth".

Quote from: Shifter
As we are on a flat earth forum why not 'think tank' what could perhaps explain such a concept? Much more fun and less hostile
If you'd seen then pseudo-science, dumbing down of science and the hate expressed by flat Earthers on YouTube etc towards "globetards", NASA and any non flat-Earthers you might not think it's fun.

I have no sympathy for anybody trying to push a pernicious doctrine that has to claim that a great number of ordinary people are lying and part of a conspiracy to "hide God and the true shape of the Earth".

And it demands denying basic physics and demonizing NASA and all space agencies.

Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2020, 01:21:03 AM »
Quote
Well first up, the sun is certainly not yellow. It is white. If it really were yellow, snow would look like it was pissed on. I can assert this with a very high degree of confidence

In so far as the solar spectrum shows that the photosphere emits light all the way across the visible band (400-700nm) I agree with you that sunlight is technically white.  That's why astronomers talk about observing the Sun in white light when they use a filter which merely scaled down the intensity of light entering the telescope.

However in common with other stars the Sun does not emit light with equal intensity across the full range of visible wavelengths. The peak of emission depends on temperature (Wiens displacement law) and for the Sun that corresponds to a wavelength which we recognise as yellow.  Colours of course are just the human brains way of distinguishing different wavelengths. Also our eyes have evolved during the day at least to be most sensitive to light in the yellow part of the spectrum. Hence we note that sunlight has a yellow hue.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2020, 01:23:21 AM by Solarwind »

Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2020, 02:17:02 AM »
Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge
The maps of the globe have distortion, as you cannot map a round surface onto a flat surface without distorting it.

That does not apply for a flat Earth. If Earth was flat, all that is needed to make a flat map is scaling it down with a constant scale.

Perhaps there is some strange geometry at work.
You mean like spherical geometry, because Earth's surface is close to that of a sphere, not a flat surface?
If you need "strange geometry", then it isn't flat.

However in common with other stars the Sun does not emit light with equal intensity across the full range of visible wavelengths. The peak of emission depends on temperature (Wiens displacement law) and for the Sun that corresponds to a wavelength which we recognise as yellow.
No, it is roughly 500 nm, a green colour (although some would say it is getting to the blue end of the spectrum).

Most people know the spectrum goes from red to violet, and astronomers recognise the colours of stars as mostly along that spectrum, and other black bodies also mainly following that spectrum, with cold objects not emitting visible light, then as it gets hotter it becomes red hot, then orange, then yellow, and very hot objects being blue.
Notice that one colour that is left out is green.
Instead of seeing green, the colours are balanced with large amounts of red and blue in the mix resulting in it appearing white.

This is quite unsurprising given our sun is the natural source of white balance for Earth and thus we have evolved to see objects illuminated by the sun which reflect all wavelengths as white.

But scattering of light by the atmosphere, with shorter wavelengths scattering more, makes the sky appear blue and the sun appear less blue, i.e. yellow.

So no, even by a simple statement about the colour of it, as you would say about a sheet of paper, the sun is white.
If instead you wanted the wavelength with the maximum intensity, then the sun is green.

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Shifter

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2020, 04:54:02 AM »


Sciencephile has the explanation :)


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magellanclavichord

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2020, 06:59:45 AM »
As we are on a flat earth forum why not 'think tank' what could perhaps explain such a concept? Much more fun and less hostile

I tried to do that, not only with the mapping problem, but with FET in general, looking for ways to explain a flat Earth without denying science, and I was accused of being a troll. As you note, it was more fun. But nobody was interested in playing along.

So we're back to reality: One proof of the globularity of the Earth is simply that you cannot map it on a flat sheet of paper.

On the color of stars (including our sun) our atmosphere is not the reason our sun is considered yellow. If it were, then all stars would be considered yellow. But astronomers classify different stars as different colors, which, as Solarwind points out, arises from their different surface temperatures.

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sokarul

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2020, 08:26:03 AM »
It's a bit rich for you guys to complain about maps when you guys still have ludicrous looking maps yourself

I present you with this


Look at Greenland vs Australia. WTF? Plus I could have sworn China should be bigger than that... Seems on par with Australia

This map is globe earthers doing an 'own goal'  ::)
That map is simply a confirmation of what I have stated many times: It is impossible to have a map on a flat sheet of paper that is both accurate and has a fixed scale because the earth is not flat!

Or the globe map is simply nonsense

See how the lines of latitude are not equal? The scale of the map is not a constant. Same goes if the map on your phone.

Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge

Itís a different case. Lines of longitude converge on a globe and diverge on a disk. Down there in Australia the distance between longitude lines would be quite a bit farther than where I am. Yet no one has ever noticed this?
Sokarul

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magellanclavichord

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  • Cheerful Globularist
Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2020, 11:57:20 AM »
It's a bit rich for you guys to complain about maps when you guys still have ludicrous looking maps yourself

I present you with this


Look at Greenland vs Australia. WTF? Plus I could have sworn China should be bigger than that... Seems on par with Australia

This map is globe earthers doing an 'own goal'  ::)
That map is simply a confirmation of what I have stated many times: It is impossible to have a map on a flat sheet of paper that is both accurate and has a fixed scale because the earth is not flat!

Or the globe map is simply nonsense

See how the lines of latitude are not equal? The scale of the map is not a constant. Same goes if the map on your phone.

Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge

Itís a different case. Lines of longitude converge on a globe and diverge on a disk. Down there in Australia the distance between longitude lines would be quite a bit farther than where I am. Yet no one has ever noticed this?

Emphasis mine.

That's a very strange way of putting it. Longitude lines on a globe diverge as you move from either pole towards the equator, and converge as you move from the equator toward either pole. On a map of the flat Earth with the north pole at the center, the longitude lines diverge as you move from the center outwards to the rim, and converge as you move from the rim inward to the center. In both cases, convergence or divergence depends on which way you are facing.

Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2020, 01:59:39 PM »
On the color of stars (including our sun) our atmosphere is not the reason our sun is considered yellow. If it were, then all stars would be considered yellow.
No, they wouldn't.
That makes no sense at all.
We aren't saying that the atmosphere only lets through yellow light.
We are saying it preferentially scatters blue light.
That will make the stars appear redder.
So a white star becomes yellow.
A yellow star may appear more orange.
An orange star would appear more red.
A blue star would appear more white.

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rabinoz

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Re: Little bit confused
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2020, 03:06:34 PM »
It's a bit rich for you guys to complain about maps when you guys still have ludicrous looking maps yourself

I present you with this


Look at Greenland vs Australia. WTF? Plus I could have sworn China should be bigger than that... Seems on par with Australia

This map is globe earthers doing an 'own goal'  ::)
That map is simply a confirmation of what I have stated many times: It is impossible to have a map on a flat sheet of paper that is both accurate and has a fixed scale because the earth is not flat!

Or the globe map is simply nonsense

See how the lines of latitude are not equal? The scale of the map is not a constant. Same goes if the map on your phone.
Yes and the flat earth map has the same line distortion yet you globe heads can't get enough at laughing at the shape of the countries towards the edge

Itís a different case. Lines of longitude converge on a globe and diverge on a disk. Down there in Australia the distance between longitude lines would be quite a bit farther than where I am. Yet no one has ever noticed this?
I live in Australia (as does Shifter) and I can and have measured, at least approximately, the kilometres per degree near here and much further south.
Here's one local example:
There are two places just west of here, Blacksoil at Lat/Long 27.576įS, 152.700įE (just NW of Ipswich) and Withcott at Lat/Long 27.554įS, 152.024įE.
On the flat Earth, the calculated shortest distances between them (from lat/long) would be 156 km and on the Globe Earth, 67 km.
And the measured road distance is 71 km, from both the car's oddo and the GPS.

I'd welcome anyone checking these calculations or showing logical errors.

Details of the calculations. Note that I have seen no flat Earth map ever published with enough detail to scale distances like this.

The distances based on a Globe Equatorial Circumference of 40,073 km and a Flat Earth Equatorial Circumference of 62,946 km.

The average latitude is 27.565į.
     Hence circumference of the flat Earth at that latitude 62,946 x (90+27.565)/90 = 82,225 km (the longitude lines are straight)
     and the calculated width of one degree on the flat Earth would be (62,946/360) = 228 km.
Since the longitude difference is 0.676į the Blacksoil to Withcott (almost exactly due West) distance comes out to 156 km.

The circumference of the Globe Earth at that latitude is 40,073 x cos(27.565) = 35,524 km (the longitude lines are cosine curves)
     and the calculated width of one degree on the Globe Earth would be (35,524/360) = 99 km.
The Blacksoil to Withcott distance then is (0.676 x 99) = 67 km and as noted above the measured road distance is 71 km, from both the car's oddo and the GPS.

I have other much longer measured distances from southern Western Australia that show a bigger discrepancy between the measured distance (oddo and GPS) and the flat Earth calculations.

If anyone queries the accuracy of the cars oddo:
  • It measures quite correctly to within 1% in both North-South and East-West directions.
  • No odometer could read more than double the correct distance.
Conclusion: The distances on the "Ice-Wall" map are grossly in error, especially in the Southern Hemisphere.