Dark Moon

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2020, 07:43:24 PM »
I have never been more insulted.

I'm surprised you would be insulted, he was a genius:

"Nowadays if you say that God is dead, the general reaction is “so what?” but if you say that the earth is flat, then God help you. Even in the days of its greatest power, the Church was more tolerant than our modern scientific establishment. The Church at least allowed for one dissenting viewpoint : the devil’s.”
- Leo Ferrari

Let your soul rest under the moonlight. And wake reaffirmed in your torture of science and mysticism and be it but a speck upon the landscape of humanity that you, of among the greatest scientists the world has ever known, goes unrecognized and defaulted. Instead you should be lauded and applauded for a performance unforgiving, sacrificial, and unyielding. Enjoy your happenstance as a leader in the cause and continue to imbue those that pass by with your wisdom and guidance.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2020, 07:53:47 PM »
Even your smallest sigh leaves a far greater impact than you will ever be able to quantify.

I am insulted by his theory; his method was pretty spot on. He had something to say, and yes I agree with his method of saying it; his theory was insulting to our cause. It insulted us and might as well have been an SNL skitch(sic). It had the good bits and the bad bits. We stand on the shoulders of giants, but they seem like dwarves from here. Quantum Ab Hoc!

But that's discussion. It goes here and there.

You don't get to choose the medium.

Happenstance had nothing to do with it. That part took the most work.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2020, 07:54:55 PM »
Happenstance is harder than it looks...
Quantum Ab Hoc

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2020, 11:21:51 PM »
Happenstance is harder than it looks...

Agreed. It takes vigilance to make happenstance adhere.

Leo Ferrari was a master at quantum ad hoc endeavors. You have big shoes to fill, as it were. But you are moving and leading in the right direction. He would be proud of your continued work within the realm.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2020, 11:40:01 PM »
This thread went down the gutter fast.

If bio-luminescence is so dangerous, why does it not effect all the moon-whales and moon-unicorns up there.
It has clearly been established through the ages that is where unicorns come from.

Check mate.

Also, John, If the moon is so dangerous, why do millions of different species of insect only come out to navigate in moonlight and no other night?

here, I found 2770 scholar articles that you can look at
https://scholar.google.co.za/scholar?q=insect+navigation+moonlight&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart
but this one is more specific
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsbl.2014.0993


Also, if the old people where so wise, why did many tribes around the world celebrate the full moon by dancing under it?  This was big in Africa too.
Here, read a book
https://books.google.co.za/books?hl=en&lr=&id=a4DetfLW-0cC&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=tribal+moon&ots=SWgY5JShk7&sig=a6O4MvbbUud1UoWKGCeYsUvgXg4#v=onepage&q=moon&f=false

The thing you mention about lions hunting at night is load of crap.
Lions actually have a reduced chance to bring a kill home during full moon, which is not what popular culture would tell you.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5847/35f4994de42b3d2e800426f67385fa01f0cf.pdf
Id give you a better study, but dont have access to it right now.

Also, I sleep like shit if there is any light outside. What surprise is there that people sleep better when it is dark.
People also sleep like shit when there is no moon, but a full sun out.

Also, citations please!

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2020, 11:56:41 PM »
Oh, just because of how badly John understands wild life, and that I have spent more time in the bush than he has in the sun, I feel like I need to add this fun fact.


A lot of nocturnal predictors have slight white fur directly under their eyes to help reflect more light into their eyes.
Its not a lot, but you almost always see it nocturnal mammals.

Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2020, 01:09:55 AM »
Please review how startling the dangerous effects of moonlight on plants can be. My experiment is data driven and can be replicated. My only regret is having to purposefully stress and harm plant life in the pursuit of truth.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=36906.0
Your experiment does not demonstrate that moonlight is harmful.

The ones you shielded from the moonlight (group 2) do not display any significant difference to the ones that were not shielded (group 1).
Instead it is shielding it from the sun (group 3) without providing another decent light source which seems to be the issue.

So instead of demonstrating that moonlight is harmful, you demonstrate that it needs the sun.

So far the complaints to my above posts have been an exercise in cherry picking and google dicking.
You mean they have been objecting to your baseless claims and in some cases providing evidence which refutes it.

Man sleeps worse in full moon:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23405941
Interestingly, this is not the case when placed in a room with protection from moonlight.
Did you even read your link?
It claims the effect still occurs when in a darkened room with no view to the moon.
The study itself also discusses causes unrelated to the moon.

No where do they link it to the moon light.

relates a study by Dr. Alan Beck
Care to provide a link? Or at least a proper reference to it?

Any knowledged man will readily acknowledge that the lesser luminary's light will beg at man's will and sanity.
Some might, but not all.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2020, 04:39:39 AM »
Please review how startling the dangerous effects of moonlight on plants can be. My experiment is data driven and can be replicated. My only regret is having to purposefully stress and harm plant life in the pursuit of truth.
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=36906.0
Your experiment does not demonstrate that moonlight is harmful.

The ones you shielded from the moonlight (group 2) do not display any significant difference to the ones that were not shielded (group 1).
Instead it is shielding it from the sun (group 3) without providing another decent light source which seems to be the issue.

So instead of demonstrating that moonlight is harmful, you demonstrate that it needs the sun.

So far the complaints to my above posts have been an exercise in cherry picking and google dicking.
You mean they have been objecting to your baseless claims and in some cases providing evidence which refutes it.

Man sleeps worse in full moon:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23405941
Interestingly, this is not the case when placed in a room with protection from moonlight.
Did you even read your link?
It claims the effect still occurs when in a darkened room with no view to the moon.
The study itself also discusses causes unrelated to the moon.

No where do they link it to the moon light.

relates a study by Dr. Alan Beck
Care to provide a link? Or at least a proper reference to it?

Any knowledged man will readily acknowledge that the lesser luminary's light will beg at man's will and sanity.
Some might, but not all.
JackBlack, literally in results of group 1 vs group 2, the first mentioned:
Quote
Group   N    Missing    Median      25%        75%     
Col 1   21   0   16.000   15.000   17.000   
Col 2   21   0   13.000   12.000   14.000   

Mann-Whitney U Statistic= 9.000

T = 663.000  n(small)= 21  n(big)= 21  (P = <0.001)

The difference in the median values between the two groups is greater than would be expected by chance; there is a statistically significant difference
.
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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2020, 05:22:32 AM »
I'm curious about your thoughts on lunar eclipse.  What do you think is going on there?
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magellanclavichord

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2020, 06:04:19 AM »
Name calling is all globularists have when they cannot refute our evidence.

Sadly, name-calling is universal. No group has a monopoly on it.

The moon and its light clearly do have effects. That's because when present it's the brightest thing in the night sky. Some people need a fully-darkened room in order to sleep well. The full moon is bright enough to disturb that, just as any light would. Other people sleep just fine when there is light. Of course popular culture is full of myths and superstitions about the full moon. It was believed (in some times and places) that some people would turn into a wolf or other ravenous beast during the full moon. (Some folks here make fun of that belief with a game where they pretend that certain individuals turn into penguins.) It is true that some night nurses believe there are more accidents and assaults during the full moon. This has been demonstrated to be false, but the erroneous belief persists.

In fact, the moon is beautiful and its light is entrancing, sitting as it does against the black background of the night sky. For ages, couples in the first throes of love have enjoyed making out and even having sex under the full moon.

What truly mystifies me is why flat-Earthers should so passionately defend nonsensical claims that actually have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth. But in the end, the idea that the Earth is flat is so patently and obviously idiotic that it deprives any of their other claims of any credibility whatsoever.

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2020, 07:42:56 AM »
So far the complaints to my above posts have been an exercise in cherry picking and google dicking.
You mean they have been objecting to your baseless claims and in some cases providing evidence which refutes it.
I have yet to see any evidence provided.

Quote
Man sleeps worse in full moon:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23405941
Interestingly, this is not the case when placed in a room with protection from moonlight.
Did you even read your link?
It claims the effect still occurs when in a darkened room with no view to the moon.
The study itself also discusses causes unrelated to the moon.

No where do they link it to the moon light.
No I read the original study. That said, it makes no claim that they were shielded from the rays of the moon. Only that they were not aware of its phase and could not "see" it directly. This is a wildly different claim than what you are putting forward. They clearly were not wearing the appropriate protection.

Quote
relates a study by Dr. Alan Beck
Care to provide a link? Or at least a proper reference to it?
I'm afraid the results were reported at a conference.
Quote
Any knowledged man will readily acknowledge that the lesser luminary's light will beg at man's will and sanity.
Some might, but not all.
I would posit such a man is not knowledged if he has no knowledge of astronomy. One who does not know the dangers of the moon clearly is ignorant of astronomy and medicine.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 07:52:52 AM by John Davis »
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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2020, 07:56:04 AM »
Name calling is all globularists have when they cannot refute our evidence.

Sadly, name-calling is universal. No group has a monopoly on it.

The moon and its light clearly do have effects. That's because when present it's the brightest thing in the night sky. Some people need a fully-darkened room in order to sleep well. The full moon is bright enough to disturb that, just as any light would. Other people sleep just fine when there is light. Of course popular culture is full of myths and superstitions about the full moon. It was believed (in some times and places) that some people would turn into a wolf or other ravenous beast during the full moon. (Some folks here make fun of that belief with a game where they pretend that certain individuals turn into penguins.) It is true that some night nurses believe there are more accidents and assaults during the full moon. This has been demonstrated to be false, but the erroneous belief persists.
From what I've seen, the results of said studies are inconsistent at best. Something about the idea of lunancy simply does not appeal to the modern scientist, and as such it has been studied over and over again with attempts to prove it wrong. Rather than listen to their data, they tend to falsify and smudge their reports by adjusting the definition of "full moon" so that it makes their thesis correct and they don't have to publish a paper stating something that would make them look unfashionable.

Quote
In fact, the moon is beautiful and its light is entrancing, sitting as it does against the black background of the night sky. For ages, couples in the first throes of love have enjoyed making out and even having sex under the full moon.

What truly mystifies me is why flat-Earthers should so passionately defend nonsensical claims that actually have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth. But in the end, the idea that the Earth is flat is so patently and obviously idiotic that it deprives any of their other claims of any credibility whatsoever.
The nature of the moons light is well studied in zetetic literature. I suggest you review Earth: Not A Globe and similar texts.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2020, 07:57:02 AM »
In fact, it has been well studied since antiquity and even round earth books will talk to it. It is only recently that man has gotten so silly about the whole matter.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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sokarul

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2020, 07:58:33 AM »
“Well studied” doesn’t mean look at one book from the 1800’s.
Sokarul

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2020, 08:19:30 AM »
Its a good thing that wasn't done then sokarul. It has literally been looked at for hundreds of years. Difficulty arises in the notion that it is unpopular for a scientist to believe in such things as well as the difficulty of pinning down this behavior to be able to properly define it; as one study puts it "ce concept n'est peut-être pas défini d'une manière assez adéquate pour permettre une telle démonstration." Others have noted the varying definitions in "full moon" used in studies. It seems modern science has failed us where proper science has appropriately warned us of the dangers.

It is indeed as Charles Fort would put it a "Damned Fact."
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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2020, 08:24:15 AM »
Oh, just because of how badly John understands wild life, and that I have spent more time in the bush than he has in the sun, I feel like I need to add this fun fact.


A lot of nocturnal predictors have slight white fur directly under their eyes to help reflect more light into their eyes.
Its not a lot, but you almost always see it nocturnal mammals.
As it turns out, madness, agitation and rage is quite useful to predators. Like previously mentioned, many beasts have adapted to try to make the moons harmful rays a benefit.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2020, 08:43:36 AM »
Parasites are another easy to see proof of the moons dangers. When their hosts are weakened by the full moon, parasites are able to take advantage of this.

Man also tends to produce less melotonin and more serotonin during the full moon.

It seems the posters in this thread want to admit that moonlight affects animals behaviors, yet they don't want to concede the point that moonlight affects animals behaviors. How silly! The mental gymnastics involved surely put the Ringling Brothers to shame.
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2020, 01:30:42 PM »
JackBlack, literally in results of group 1 vs group 2

You seemed to make quite a big emphasis on the number of rows in your opening post, rather than its thickness.
And you shows no significant difference there.
With your thickness data, it seems everything is significantly different to everything else, with the exception of groups 4 and 5.
For your data to actually support damage from the moon it should be the case of set 1 and 3 being different to the others, with no differences between the others.


Looking at more of your results, a big problem I find with that is that while you have 3 decimal places you do not use them for the vast majority of results. Why is that? Then you only declare 2 values to not be statistically significant if they are identical, with the exception of temperature, where you do use the extra decimal places.

I have yet to see any evidence provided.
It is quite easy to not see it when you ignore it.

No I read the original study.
Which still makes no link to the moonlight and it indicates they tried to exclude the effects of moonlight.
Quote
We attempted to exclude confounders such as increased light at night, potential bias in perception regarding a lunar influence on sleep, and temporal information about the 24 hr day

So where is the link to the harmful effects of moonlight?

Even looking at the data, it doesn't even directly link full moon to effect of sleep. Instead it links lunar phase with sleep, with several measures being comparable for full and new moon.
For example, with REM sleep latency you have the lowest values round 9 days from the full moon, and the highest values within 4 days or at 14 days, with the full moon being slightly higher.

Meanwhile if the effect was due to the moonlight magically penetrating the facility you would expect the most extreme difference to be between the new and full moon.


I would posit such a man is not knowledged if he has no knowledge of astronomy.
I wouldn't call the effect of moonlight on people as astronomy.
But I guess that means you postit that no FEer is knowledged.

Regardless, as there is no clear evidence of the effect of moonlight on people it isn't knowledge they are lacking but superstition.

Parasites are another easy to see proof of the moons dangers. When their hosts are weakened by the full moon, parasites are able to take advantage of this.
Again, where is the evidence?
Not just a difference in activity, but evidence that there is a weakening effect.
Again, how does this make sense at all? why are the hosts harmed, but not the parasite itself?

Man also tends to produce less melotonin and more serotonin during the full moon.
And during the day.
Light is an issue.

It seems the posters in this thread want to admit that moonlight affects animals behaviors, yet they don't want to concede the point that moonlight affects animals behaviors.
No, it seems posters in this thread want to admit that changes in light level can effect animal behaviour, and that this does not indicate that the light from the moon is harmful nor that it is fundamentally different from light from the sun.

Meanwhile, some posters in this thread want to claim that the moonlight harms creatures and makes them weak, but that it doesn't harm creatures and instead makes them strong.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2020, 02:10:05 PM »
Ok so I going to safely disregard your criticisms, especially the use of decimal places. You're not even making any sense.

It's obvious you are compelled to reply to posts without researching before replying. Otherwise you would have answered your own questions including the earlier mentioned group 1 vs group 2 which is found in literally the beginning data.

I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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rabinoz

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2020, 02:51:28 PM »
Parasites are another easy to see proof of the moons dangers. When their hosts are weakened by the full moon, parasites are able to take advantage of this.

Man also tends to produce less melotonin and more serotonin during the full moon.
And quite independent of any actual exposure to full moonlight giving the lie to that as evidence full moonlight is dangerous!

Quote from: John Davis
It seems the posters in this thread want to admit that moonlight affects animals behaviors, yet they don't want to concede the point that moonlight affects animals behaviors. How silly! The mental gymnastics involved surely put the Ringling Brothers to shame.

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Stash

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2020, 03:47:45 PM »
Parasites are another easy to see proof of the moons dangers. When their hosts are weakened by the full moon, parasites are able to take advantage of this.

Man also tends to produce less melotonin and more serotonin during the full moon.

It seems the posters in this thread want to admit that moonlight affects animals behaviors, yet they don't want to concede the point that moonlight affects animals behaviors. How silly! The mental gymnastics involved surely put the Ringling Brothers to shame.

Interesting article on how light affects the circadian rhythm in humans. More specific to the introduction of artificial light, but interesting how light in general, whether from the Sun, moon, or even a streetlight, impacts our state of being. Light is light, moon reflected or otherwise.

Timing of light exposure affects mood and brain circuits
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5299389/

"The introduction of electric light was a pivotal moment in history, finally allowing humans greater flexibility in controlling the environment. It led to safer, wealthier, more productive societies. Unfortunately, the field of circadian biology lagged behind the widespread adoption of electric light. Only now are we learning about the effects of artificial light at night on the brain and body.”

No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2020, 05:45:08 PM »
Ok so I going to safely disregard your criticisms
You mean you will disregard things which point massive flaws with your claims?

especially the use of decimal places. You're not even making any sense.
You were measuring thickness.
You used 3 decimal places, which should indicate that you are confident in the measurement to that value, yet the value you report for the median, in all cases, is a whole number.
This makes no sense at all.

And as I pointed out, For the thickness, unless they are identical, you declare them to have a statistically significant difference.
Even with significant overlap and a relatively small sample size, you still declare it to be statistically significant.
And with 2 seemingly identical sets of data, you produce different statistical results.

So that "experiment" of yours is quite suspect, and in no way demonstrates any harmful nature of moon light.

If you want me to take it seriously, post the raw data.

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rabinoz

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2020, 05:56:01 PM »
<< Irrelevant to the basic claim you made! >>
I'm waiting for direct evidence supporting your original claim:
Bioluminescent organisms cause the light we see when looking to the moon.
So far all there seems to have been findings about "bioluminescent organisms" in the oceans.

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MaNaeSWolf

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2020, 01:14:22 AM »
Oh, just because of how badly John understands wild life, and that I have spent more time in the bush than he has in the sun, I feel like I need to add this fun fact.


A lot of nocturnal predictors have slight white fur directly under their eyes to help reflect more light into their eyes.
Its not a lot, but you almost always see it nocturnal mammals.
As it turns out, madness, agitation and rage is quite useful to predators. Like previously mentioned, many beasts have adapted to try to make the moons harmful rays a benefit.
What non-sense are you talking about. I have more than once seen predators hunt at night under full moon (how we managed to spot them). They are no more or less "enraged" than when they hunt during the day.

Also, I would like to see one modern study of the dangers of moon light please.

Turn some gobbledygook into fact, provide some citations.

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Yes

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2020, 06:59:23 AM »
It's just shtick - he's been trotting this stuff out for years.  John likes to role play a 19th century quack scientist.
This is correct.



However, I'd still like to understand what mussel ovaries have to do with lunar light.
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rabinoz

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2020, 12:26:10 PM »
It's just shtick - he's been trotting this stuff out for years.  John likes to role play a 19th century quack scientist.
This is correct.

However, I'd still like to understand what mussel ovaries have to do with lunar light.
Ski simply refuses to respond to requests for the slightest evidence connecting them.
And refuses to provide spectra of their light so it can be compared to the spectrum of full moonlight, which I have provided.

I did post a reference detailing the peak wavelengths and line widths of other bioluminecent ocean organisms but that was ignored.

It seems that evidence is not high on flat-Earthers' agendas - so much seems to be based on unfounded hypotheses.

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John Davis

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2020, 12:41:29 PM »
Oysters close their shells to shield themselves from the harmful effects of the full moon.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 12:44:39 PM by John Davis »
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Stash

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2020, 01:37:23 PM »
Oysters close their shells to shield themselves from the harmful effects of the full moon.

Please cite the research stating that there are harmful effects and that oysters are shielding themselves because of said harmful effects.
No. That sudden lurch forwards is the atmospheric slosh effect.

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rabinoz

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2020, 03:05:06 PM »
Oysters close their shells to shield themselves from the harmful effects of the full moon.
You have provided no evidence that:
  • "Oysters" do "close their shells" at "the full moon" (But I have quoted a report that they are "more closed".) nor that
  • even If they do "close their shells" at "the full moon" the the reason is "to shield themselves from the harmful effects of the full moon."
This seems far more plausible:
Quote from: Jason Daley, SMITHSONIANMAG.COM
Oysters Open and Close Their Shells as the Moon Wanes and Waxes
A new study suggests the mollusks may widen and narrow their shells depending on movement of plankton, which shifts with the lunar cycle.

 a new study published in the journal Biology Letterssuggests oysters are one of the creatures that keep tabs on the moon, and that the lunar cycle influences how widely they open their shells.

Nicola Davis at The Guardian reports that researchers discovered the oysters’ lunar love affair after tracking 12 Pacific oysters, Crassostrea gigas, that they submerged along the French coast. They then watched them carefully through three lunar cycles, each of which lasts 29.5 days. Using electrodes, they measured how widely the oysters opened their shells every 1.6 seconds, then compared that data with data about the moon’s cycle.

They found the oysters paid attention to the phases of the moon: as the moon was waxing, or growing fuller, the oysters narrowed their shells—never closing them completely. And when the moon started waning, or receding to the new moon phase, they widened their shells back up.

What that suggests is the oysters may rely on a internal lunar clock rather than direct cues, like the intensity of the moonlight. If that was the case, they would open their shells equally during the first quarter moon and the last quarter moon since the intensity of the light would be similar. But the oysters reacted differently to those phases suggesting they are following an internal calendar rather than reacting to the moonlight itself.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 03:09:19 PM by rabinoz »

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Dark Moon
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2020, 06:51:32 PM »
Looking at the gonads is the key
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:57:54 PM by Ichimaru Gin :] »
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?