nCoV public service announcement. (IMPORTANT)

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 04, 2020, 03:31:48 PM

And I don't know wtf this means https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173 something about an ancient virus.

I've got no expertise in such matters but a quick read would indicate that it's quite genuine.
Here's an attempt at the blind leading the blind .

The "porphyrin" is part of the hemoglobin that the blood cell uses to carry oxygen and the coronavirus can bind to the porphyrin limiting the ability of the blood to carry oxygen.
As a result the lungs are "frustrated" in their efforts to oxygenate the blood

The paper the shows how the drugs chloroquine and Favipiravir might mitigate the effects of the coronavirus.

This bit seem very relevant.

Quote

The attack will cause less and less hemoglobin that can carry oxygen and carbon dioxide. The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung images.

The mechanism also interfered with the normal heme anabolic pathway of the human body, is expected to result in human disease. According to the validation analysis of these finds, chloroquine could prevent orf1ab, ORF3a, and ORF10 to attack the heme to form the porphyrin, and inhibit the binding of ORF8 and surface glycoproteins to porphyrins to a certain extent, effectively relieve the symptoms of respiratory distress.

Favipiravir could inhibit the envelope protein and ORF7a protein bind to porphyrin, prevent the virus from entering host cells, and catching free porphyrins.

The "ground-glass-like lung images" is explained in here:

Quote

Wikipedia: Ground-glass opacity
In radiology, ground glass opacity (GGO) is a nonspecific finding on computed tomography scans (CT) consisting of a hazy opacity that does not obscure the underlying bronchial structures or pulmonary vessels, that indicates a partial filling of air spaces in the lungs by exudate or transudate, as well as interstitial thickening or partial collapse of lung alveoli.

I hope that doesn't make it more confusing .

The same blood that goes through the lungs would also go through the brain and other body parts. I see no reason why the lung should have "extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently," with no or little effect to other tissue that have the same the same co2 and o2 concentrations.

Actually I'm pretty sure nervous tissue is the first one to get affected by low oxygen. If the suggested mechanism was true, I would expect the brain to (partially) shut down before the lungs do.

Also (as already mentioned) the lung would likely be impaired equally with this mechanism, and not only some parts would show heavy ground glass pattern and others none.

Additionally, I believe that by the mentioned mechanism only (or at least mostly) O2 delievery to the cells would be affected, but CO2 (which dissolves very well in the blood) could still leave the system. Yet patients appear to have dyspnea kind of early on which then wouldn't make sense, because dyspnea is triggered by high co2 and not really by low o2.

It also wouldn't really explain why patients could survive for weeks on ventilators or ecmo, because if the oxygen carrying capability was destroyed, especially ecmo probably wouldn't be able to keep the patients alive.


But I have only read the short version of the paper, perhaps I'll read the whole thing later on. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and it's not bullshit.

These nerdy doctors talk about the lack of encephalopathy a bit in this podcast (it's less than 15 minutes) https://emcrit.org/emcrit/stop-kneejerk-intubation/  Really interesting about how it might be better to use high oxygen cannula or CPAP instead of intubation and ventilators. Also, I don't know, but it might be worthy of adding to your resource post https://emcrit.org/ibcc/covid19/

This is interesting, too.

FROM NYC ICU: IS COVID REALLY ARDS?!!!
https://vimeo.com/402537849

Edit to add one more nerdy thing to read https://www.esicm.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/684_author-proof.pdf

This is interesting, too.

FROM NYC ICU: IS COVID REALLY ARDS?!!!
https://vimeo.com/402537849

Edit to add one more nerdy thing to read https://www.esicm.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/684_author-proof.pdf

The guy said he thinks the ventilators are doing more harm than good. I don't know what they are doing in 'murica, but where I live they don't put you on a ventilator just for fun. It's more an escalation scheme where you first get nothing, then low o2, then higher concentrated o2, maybe with a facemask/cpap and THEN if that isn't enough you get put on a ventilator or ecmo if necessary.

These nerdy doctors talk about the lack of encephalopathy a bit in this podcast (it's less than 15 minutes) https://emcrit.org/emcrit/stop-kneejerk-intubation/  Really interesting about how it might be better to use high oxygen cannula or CPAP instead of intubation and ventilators.

Well, they mostly seem to be saying it's better to not put the patient on a ventilator as long as possible.
I think that makes a lot of sense and is also very intuitive. Being put on a ventilator carries lot's of risks including lung injury, infection, falling blood pressure, right heart stress etc. so it seems very obvioius to not do it unless it's REALLY necessary.
It is interesting that they claim that the o2 sat drops while co2 and compliance are still very good. If that's true then the other paper with the prophyrin might have something to it, but I still doubt it (but I also didn't have time yet to read the full paper).

Michael Dowling: "If you go on a ventilator, there is about a 20% chance that you will survive."  His interview starts about 23 minutes in.

And I don't know wtf this means https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173 something about an ancient virus.

Okay, I've read the first 2.5 pages. You can forget everything they claim it's all bullshit. These guys have no clue what they are doing.

They basically did this:
1. Chloroquine is an anti-malaria drug and might help with covid-19
2. Malaria parasite is inside the red blood cells
3. Thus covid-19 must have a similar mechanism
4. sars cov 2 has some unknown proteins in its RNA. They made some models of how those might look and the just made some assumptions to where those proteins might fit and apparently they thought it could fit

Here is why the study is crap:

"The lung cells have extremely intense poisoning and inflammatory due to the inability to exchange carbon dioxide and oxygen frequently, which eventually results in ground-glass-like lung image"
They obviously don't know what they are talking about and are just making wild assumptions. They have no evidence for what they write here and don't explain why it would only affect the lungs but not all other organs that are more sensitive to low oxygen.

"This report demonstrates that the hemoglobin and neutrophil counts of most patients have decreased, and the index values of serum ferritin, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, C-reactive protein, albumin, and lactate dehydrogenase of many patients increase significantly. This trace implies that the patient's hemoglobin is decreasing, and the heme is increasing, and the body will accumulate too many harmful iron ions, which will cause inflammation in the body and increase
C-reactive protein and albumin."
This shows one more time that they don't understand basic physiology. Ferritin is a acute phase protein and a well known parameter for inflammation of all kinds and is often measured to determine if/how much inflammation there is. It has nothing to do with 'hemoglobin is decreasing, heme is increasing,... the body will accumulate too many harmufl iron ions which will cause inflammation'. Elevated serum ferritin is a very normal reaction from the body.

"cloroquine phosphate has a definite effect on the novel coronavirus pneumonia"
That's also crap. It is currently under investigation if and how much chloroquin helps. They cite a source for this claim that states "Our findings reveal that remdesivir and chloroquine are highly effective in the control of 2019-nCoV infection in vitro. Since these compounds have been used in human patients with a safety track record and shown to be effective against various ailments, we suggest that they should be assessed in human patients suffering from the novel coronavirus disease.". In vitro means it was tested only in the lab and they clearly say testing in humans is needed. So the guys form this study use sources that contradict what they are saying.

-I doubt the virus can enter red blood cells. As far as I know the virus mostly enters epithelial cells using ace2 as the binding receptor (plus it infects other tissue like the heart or intestines because they also express ace2)

-Chloroquine's antiviral properties are assumed to be completely different than why it works against malaria. Wikipedia has a short paragraph about it: Chloroquine has antiviral effects.[34] It increases late endosomal and lysosomal pH, resulting in impaired release of the virus from the endosome or lysosome – release of the virus requires a low pH. The virus is therefore unable to release its genetic material into the cell and replicate.[35][36]

Chloroquine also seems to act as a zinc ionophore, that allows extracellular zinc to enter the cell and inhibit viral RNA-dependent RNA polymerase.[37][38]

-They have many typos

-It's apparently a chinese study. I have heard many times that chinese research often ist crap because they just want as many PhD and master degrees as possible to look good.

Michael Dowling: "If you go on a ventilator, there is about a 20% chance that you will survive."  His interview starts about 23 minutes in.

I havent found good data on that yet. But I think in wuhan only one of over 30 patients survived.
In washington, I think 2/3 of around 16 critically ill have alreary died, 10% are better and the rest is still critical.
But I think yesterday I have heared somewhere the outcome is pretty close to 50/50.
So yeah, chances are definitely not good but I don't know how bad they really are.

I think the data from england/wales/ireland is the best there is, at least that I know of:

Critical care unit outcomes have been received for 165 patients, of whom 79 patients have died and 86 were discharged alive from critical care

97 of those needed "advanced respirstory support". Unfortunately I can't find how many were intubated and what percentage survived.
But I guess 20% survival rate seems possible.

Dr Fauci has repeatedly said that chloroquine is not a miracle cure, but Trump keeps talking about it.

If this is real, where are the crowds???

A feeble minded person such as yourself would believe that.

A feeble minded person such as yourself would believe that.

How are the people faking empty parking lots and no lines at hospital entrances.

Ooops, I almost forgot. You are paid to through people off.

Not every hospital is in an area with many sick people.

Quote from: sokarul on April 05, 2020, 01:56:13 PM

A feeble minded person such as yourself would believe that.

How are the people faking empty parking lots and no lines at hospital entrances.

Ooops, I almost forgot. You are paid to through people off.

And who pays you to make up fairy-stories for the "cause"?

You shouldn't feed the hoppy.

You shouldn't feed the hoppy.

It's so tempting to feed the wildlife there're so cute .  But I'll try to avoid that temptation.

A tiger in the bronx zoo, new york, has been tested positive for the corone after having a dry cough.

A tiger?  Okay.  The libtard media has gone too far telling me I can get coronavirus from a tiger.  They're trying to keep great Americans like Joe Exotic from owning these pets!

A tiger?  Okay.  The libtard media has gone too far telling me I can get coronavirus from a tiger.  They're trying to keep great Americans like Joe Exotic from owning these pets!

Yes. You will now have to social distance yourself 2m/6ft from any tiger you encounter, otherwise you will be fined.

A tiger?  Okay.  The libtard media has gone too far telling me I can get coronavirus from a tiger.  They're trying to keep great Americans like Joe Exotic from owning these pets!

This is getting insane,  who wrote the script for this timeline?   Are we in a David Lynch movie?   Or is it the Cohen Brothers?

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/coronavirus-report-demands-china-pay-65-trillion-in-compensation/news-story/74710257a0881e8fc9f07603fed87ab6

Better to not let Pez see this. I think he believes China has been rather admirable in its handling

China should be sued trillions of dollars over its handling of the coronavirus crisis, a new report has claimed.

According to the Coronavirus Compensation? report carried out by conservative UK think tank The Henry Jackson Society, lawsuits against the nation could hit “at least” £3.2 trillion ($A6.5 trillion) from G7 nations alone.

Authors Matthew Henderson, Dr Alan Mendoza, Dr Andrew Foxall, James Rogers and Sam Armstrong argued the Chinese government’s early handling of the disease and “failure to adequately report information to the WHO” breached several articles of the International Health Regulations, of which China is a signatory.

The organisation claims the breaches allowed the virus to quickly spread outside Wuhan, where it originated, and that its research found four main areas of concern.

It alleges the Chinese government failed to disclose data that would have shown evidence of human-to-human transmission “for a period of up to three weeks from being aware of it” and that it gave the World Health Information incorrect information about the rate of infections from January 2, 2020 to January 11, 2020.

It also claims authorities allowed five million people to leave Wuhan before introducing a lockdown on January 23, and failed to ban “avoidable vectors” of lethal animal-originated viral infection.

Australia's first case of COVID-19 was on January 26 2020. Since then cases rose sharply for several weeks, but appear to be levelling out.

The group argues the “lack of information” from China delayed the response to the virus, such as travel screening.

It cited a University of Southampton study which previously found the spread of COVID-19 would have been reduced by 95 per cent had strict quarantine measures been introduced just three weeks earlier.
 
As a result of those alleged breaches, the body said China could face hefty potential damages, including £351 billion ($A712 billion) from the UK and £29.9 billion ($A60.7 billion) from Australia, and said public international lawyers might “make use of relevant clauses in order to uphold international norms” and force China to pay up.

“The Chinese Communist Party has learnt no lessons from its failure in the SARS epidemic of 2002-3. Their repeated blunders, lies and disinformation, from the start of the COVID-19 epidemic, have already had far more deadly consequences,” co-author Matthew Henderson said.

“This report apportions no blame to the people of China for what has happened. They are innocent victims, like the rest of us. This is the fault of the CCP.

“How this will translate into practice, time will tell. By computing the cost of damage caused to advanced economies and assembling a series of possible legal processes to which the rules-based order can have recourse, we offer a sense of how the free world might seek recompense for the appalling harm the CCP has done.”

Meanwhile, US intelligence agencies submitted a classified report to the White House last week in which they concluded the death and infection toll of the outbreak in China was being deliberately under-reported.

The Beijing-approved tally stands about 82,000 cases and 3300 deaths since the outbreak was discovered in December – but the report allegedly concludes the infection and death tolls are “lies”.

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s advisers have also claimed China’s figures were probably being significantly downplayed.

Time those lying SOB's paid up.

Then time for the world to bring manufacturing back to their home countries and leave China high and dry.

I'm so scared!!!!      We're all gonna die!!

Any takers on the amount of dead from this thing?

I say less than 60k dead in the US when all is said and done, not counting the dead baby in Connecticut.

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/world-economy/coronavirus-report-demands-china-pay-65-trillion-in-compensation/news-story/74710257a0881e8fc9f07603fed87ab6

Better to not let Pez see this. I think he believes China has been rather admirable in its handling

Quote

China should be sued trillions of dollars over its handling of the coronavirus crisis, a new report has claimed.

According to the Coronavirus Compensation? report carried out by conservative UK think tank The Henry Jackson Society, lawsuits against the nation could hit “at least” £3.2 trillion ($A6.5 trillion) from G7 nations alone.

Authors Matthew Henderson, Dr Alan Mendoza, Dr Andrew Foxall, James Rogers and Sam Armstrong argued the Chinese government’s early handling of the disease and “failure to adequately report information to the WHO” breached several articles of the International Health Regulations, of which China is a signatory.

The organisation claims the breaches allowed the virus to quickly spread outside Wuhan, where it originated, and that its research found four main areas of concern.

It alleges the Chinese government failed to disclose data that would have shown evidence of human-to-human transmission “for a period of up to three weeks from being aware of it” and that it gave the World Health Information incorrect information about the rate of infections from January 2, 2020 to January 11, 2020.

It also claims authorities allowed five million people to leave Wuhan before introducing a lockdown on January 23, and failed to ban “avoidable vectors” of lethal animal-originated viral infection.

Australia's first case of COVID-19 was on January 26 2020. Since then cases rose sharply for several weeks, but appear to be levelling out.

The group argues the “lack of information” from China delayed the response to the virus, such as travel screening.

It cited a University of Southampton study which previously found the spread of COVID-19 would have been reduced by 95 per cent had strict quarantine measures been introduced just three weeks earlier.
 
As a result of those alleged breaches, the body said China could face hefty potential damages, including £351 billion ($A712 billion) from the UK and £29.9 billion ($A60.7 billion) from Australia, and said public international lawyers might “make use of relevant clauses in order to uphold international norms” and force China to pay up.

“The Chinese Communist Party has learnt no lessons from its failure in the SARS epidemic of 2002-3. Their repeated blunders, lies and disinformation, from the start of the COVID-19 epidemic, have already had far more deadly consequences,” co-author Matthew Henderson said.

“This report apportions no blame to the people of China for what has happened. They are innocent victims, like the rest of us. This is the fault of the CCP.

“How this will translate into practice, time will tell. By computing the cost of damage caused to advanced economies and assembling a series of possible legal processes to which the rules-based order can have recourse, we offer a sense of how the free world might seek recompense for the appalling harm the CCP has done.”

Meanwhile, US intelligence agencies submitted a classified report to the White House last week in which they concluded the death and infection toll of the outbreak in China was being deliberately under-reported.

The Beijing-approved tally stands about 82,000 cases and 3300 deaths since the outbreak was discovered in December – but the report allegedly concludes the infection and death tolls are “lies”.

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s advisers have also claimed China’s figures were probably being significantly downplayed.

Time those lying SOB's paid up.

Then time for the world to bring manufacturing back to their home countries and leave China high and dry.

Spoiler: china will not (have to) pay anything.

Any takers on the amount of dead from this thing?

I say less than 60k dead in the US when all is said and done, not counting the dead baby in Connecticut.

122,689 dead in the US.

Fuck, they moved the johnson guy (british premier minister) to the ICU...
Considering he is pretty young (55?) and will get the best doctors, I think he has a really good chance of getting through this. But still, ststistically, him being in the icu means there is now an approx. 40-50% risk of him dying... Insane!

Fuck, they moved the johnson guy (british premier minister) to the ICU...
Considering he is pretty young (55?) and will get the best doctors, I think he has a really good chance of getting through this. But still, ststistically, him being in the icu means there is now an approx. 40-50% risk of him dying... Insane!

How's 'Herd Immunity' working out for him?

Fuck, they moved the johnson guy (british premier minister) to the ICU...
Considering he is pretty young (55?) and will get the best doctors, I think he has a really good chance of getting through this. But still, ststistically, him being in the icu means there is now an approx. 40-50% risk of him dying... Insane!

The guy looks obese or heavily overweight. That can't be helpful for his chances

He was boasting about shaking hands with people acting smug on the face of the virus. People who were infected. Well I guess karma is showing him and anyone else who downplays its threat

Quote from: Definitely Not Swedish on April 06, 2020, 01:10:40 PM

Fuck, they moved the johnson guy (british premier minister) to the ICU...
Considering he is pretty young (55?) and will get the best doctors, I think he has a really good chance of getting through this. But still, ststistically, him being in the icu means there is now an approx. 40-50% risk of him dying... Insane!

The guy looks obese or heavily overweight. That can't be helpful for his chances

He was boasting about shaking hands with people acting smug on the face of the virus. People who were infected. Well I guess karma is showing him and anyone else who downplays its threat

You have to feel sorry for the UK,  whatever you think of Boris, he actually did the right thing in the end.   His speech a week or so back was right on the money.

I hope he recovers,  there are some real looneys in the UK government circles.   He turned out to be one the more sensible ones.   ( I can't believe I just wrote that!!  )